Good Form?

[OUstud82]

Why is it that most of the guys I see in gyms use great form when lifting when they're in their 20s, decent form when they're in their 30s, questionable form when they're in their 40s, poor form in their 50s, and little or no form when they're in their 60s+?? Not that this goes for every guy, but it certainly seems to be the trend.

WHY? Older guys should have more experience, and therefore better form, no?

[brent]

My experience has been different. I've noticed old guys with rotten form (probably because their doctors send them to a gym, and they don't know what they are doing), but the worst form I've seen has been from young guys trying to impress their friends with how much they can lift. I think guys in the middle (late 20's, 30's, & 40's) tend to have the best form from my experience.

Good form is something learned but not always intuitive. I think the answers given in the previous post are right on.

The worst examples of form I've seen have been from macho kids trying to outdo each other (skinny dude nearly dropped an 80# dumbell on my foot when his arm came out of his shoulder socket just as I realized what was going on and before I could prevent it.)

A lot of older guys are there for the first time by doctor's advice after decades, or a lifetime, of body abuse and don't know what they're doing. Hmm... didn't brent say that too...?

Just going to school doesn't mean you actually learn anything unless you are motivated.

However, there may be a bit of truth in what you said originally. Some people just get sloppy. It's easy to rack up new weight records when you start to rock your hips or swing your arms or bounce your legs or whatever. But that's sloppy form and gets dangerous quickly. In many cases it's unconscious behavior. A quick shot of reality from a trusted unbiased observer can work wonders.

I'd been lifting on and off for many years with self study and moderate progress until I was in my early 40's and was introduced to a pro bodybuilder and trainer. With just three formal sessions with him (won his services in a raffle) he corrected a lot of my bad habits and gave me more insight into the form, and purpose of exercises than all the books I'd read. My progress was much better after that.

He taught me to know which muscles were supposed to be affected by each exercise and how to adjust the form to get there and how to "feel" the form to know when you were doing it right. He said, and I've subsequently learned, that it is difficult to teach form by written word, but standing there with him feeling my muscles and watching my form and expressions for a little while, he made light bulbs of comprehension come on that had been only dimmly glowing for years. We became friends and over the next couple of years I picked up a lot of simple effective information from him now and then.

Sigh... he was gay, he was my age, he was single, he seemed to like me, but it never worked out... sigh...

-- LG --

[wbhunk]

I agree with LG....the ones that scare me the most at the gym are like the high school kids I saw today, doing "squats" with 310 lbs -- that is, if you count a squat as being halfway down, lean forward. <g> At least they were doing it on the Smith machine.

My personal belief is that the best way to develop bad form is to try to lift too much too fast. One way to get around this that I've recommended to some people is like I do....a heavy cycle, light cycle, alternating back and forth. On the heavy day, the point is to lift as heavy as you can with good form....on the light day, it's to lift a lighter weight with strict form. The latter helps reinforce the pathways and patterns you need for the heavy days.

Investing in a trainer to help you go through the exercises you use is money well-spent because, as LG points out, an outside observer can really help you spot problems with your form and help you learn the right way of doing things.

[brent]

My form my not always be perfect, but it is generally better than most of what I've seen out there. Like Dan (WBhunk), I like to cycle light &L heavy, but I will do them in the same workout:
? Set One: This is very light for me, I use it to warm up & practice strict form.
? Set two: This is as heavy as I can do with good form.
? Set three: This is where I get dumb. This is my strength set, and I go as heavy as I can safely push, even if my form slips a bit.
? Set Four: This is another light one with strict form.

Learning good form is extremely important, and it is very much worth the time & money it takes to either hire a trainer, or take a class at your local junior college. The squat has to be the most challenging exercise, and the most rewarding.

[Notbigenuff]

I agree that it seems the younger guys are the ones with the worst form, at least in my gym. These also seem to be some of the smaller guys, too. If you see older guys with bad form I'm willing to bet that they are also smaller, too. Why? Because good form promotes growth a whole lot faster than bad form. It's amazing how much you can lift when momentum is on your side--so the bad form contributes to the "showing off" that teens like to do.

However, helping someone else with bad form is usually a no-no unless they ask for help first, of course. So the bad form just goes on for years in some case!

[Mdlftr]

I'd have to agree with what's been said here.

I worked out, sporadically, for years, without a clue.

My first inkling that I might be doing something wrong (other than the lack of progress, sore muscles and joints and general frustratrion--I thought that was just crappy genetics or lack of dedication or something) was one night when a guy came over to me during a set of shoulder presses, and very firmly told me that I was doing them with poor form. I was so surprised, I remember just stopping and staring at him. [I was using the Hammer strength machine, so I couldn't drop anything]

He proceeded to explain how the exercise was done, and encouraged me to try it again with correct form. I can't say that I immediately appreciated his advice, but, years later, (and, after hiring and working with a trainer) I see his point. I'm sure that thousands of guys have seen Pumping Iron, or some built stud passing by, and headed to the gym. There, you get little to no training, and are left to fend for yourself. Those of us who stick it out, unless we get some training in good exercise technique are in for years of frustration!!!

Personal aside: from when I was 13 or so, one of my favorite fantasies was that I would meet a big bodybuilder and he would show me what to do so I'd get to look like him! Hasn't happened...... yet! My trainer is female (very good, and the best and most experienced at my gym) She's not a competitor--more focused on health and fitness. She has dynamite abs!

I want to be built, and yet, I have such mixed feelings about how to express it without sounding like some sort of creep that it's hard to talk about it. Even when working out at the gym in the early morning, it's hard to really engage people about progress and working out --most guys want to get in, and get out. I do too, but it would be cool to meet someone who was into the progress aspects without getting creepy or weird about it. I can understand how even more awkward it must be if you ARE looking to meet somebody for a personal relationship---that puts WAY too much pressure on the situation. What should be a pleasurable experience of self-improvement becomes an angst-ridden episode of uncomfortable self-examination. WHoah....getting a bit deep here.........I do like working out, though!

Mdlftr

[RyBearATL]

For more about "feeling awkward to even say this" you might see this thread: Accepting Muscle Growth.

-R

[brent]

Originally Posted by Mdlftr

I want to be built, and yet, I have such mixed feelings about how to express it without sounding like some sort of creep that it's hard to talk about it. Even when working out at the gym in the early morning, it's hard to really engage people about progress and working out ... I can understand how even more awkward it must be if you ARE looking to meet somebody for a personal relationship---that puts WAY too much pressure on the situation. What should be a pleasurable experience of self-improvement becomes an angst-ridden episode of uncomfortable self-examination.

Mdlftr

Ry is right. You do need to view that thread, and get over it. Just like coming out, it keeps getting easier. It's like saying to a friend, "I'm broke right now, can you buy coffee today?" It's only hard the first time, and don't feel creepy about it. Why do you think most of the people are there?

[Notbigenuff]

Mydlftr, I second--or is it third--both Brent and Ry. It's difficult admitting that you want to be built and like being around built guys. But when you find someone with the same "passion" it sure makes it all worth it! Treasure those relationships when you make them, they are few and far between.

Of course, I believe that everyone in the gym has the same desire--they may say it's to attract the attention of a potential mate, but let's face it, at lot of people who are skinny or fat or whatever seem to find someone to love!

[ottomun6]

Mdlftr, if I'm hearing you right-- also try to relax and remember that even the big muscle guys are still guys underneath all of the muscle. Sometimes just try working in on the same machine. Many times guys will not only let you in, but will correct your form if you ask about it.

A lot is mentioned in previous threads about mind to muscle contact. And it will help you to discover it. (Not just move the weights) Flexing during and even between sets can make you understand the actual movement.

[glammaman2000]

...on a complicated subject;good form.i came into bodybuilding after i stopped my career as a ballet dancer.i already knew how to control my body from the INSIDE!try thisON"T SQUEEZE YOUR EYES SHUT ON HEAVY LIFTS!think about it;there's no way your eyelids can increase your bench-press.it just distracts you into thinking you are making a bigger effort where it doesn't count.also,it's a safety issue(i.e.,that weight is about to come crashing onto your face,etc.)

[ottomun6]

Yup gotta agree with that one Glammaman2000. I also try to lock out other musclegroups while working on a particular group. Like when doing curls, I try to picture only the bicep muscle contracting no "body swinging" to heft it up.

[brent]

Originally Posted by ottomun6

Flexing during and even between sets can make you understand the actual movement.

I have learned more about form from flexing, than any other way probably. without weight, you can really go trough the motions slowly, and deliberately, and really feel how each group works. Flexing between sets helps the muscles fill with blood, and it's a wonderful experience! If you don't want to flex in front of people (you shouldn't be concerned with what they think about you anyway) you can flex in the shower later, or after you go back home. Just do it! I guarantee you will feel incredible!

[Notbigenuff]

And flexing feels good too! Plus it helps to keep the blood flowing through the muscle and combined with stretching between sets has been known to promote some serious growth!

[hoosierlifter]

Speaking of form. I've only been lifting for about 5 years now and I keep hearing conflicting ideas on bench form. I know where to position my hands on the bar, but I have had different guys (trainers and gymrats) tell me different ideas on how I should lift. Some say to keep your elbows out away from the body, others say to keep the elbows in close to help protect your shoudlers. Any ideas from you guys? I have noticed that if I keep my elbows in, my bench is better.

[glammaman2000]

where some of these ideas come from.i've seen trainers tell people bench form that seems all wrong to me.if your elbows are in close to your body;odds are you're lifting with your lats.if you watch someone lifting"elbows in";their chin juts up&shoulders roll forward.causing MORE strain on the shoulder socket.also;GRAVITY ALWAYS GOES STRAIGHT DOWN!;regardless of your body position.you want your joints directly under the weight.(this is what makes squats inherently dangerous;your knees&butt are ahead of&behind the line of gravity for part of the lift).i think elbows should be quite high.weight should touch at top of your sternum,CHIN DOWN!at no point should your wrists be inside your elbows.make sure your grip is wide enough so that wrists are directly over elbows at bottom of lift.&COME ALL THE WAY DOWN!i've seen lots of guys only doing top half of lift.the bottom half is the important part!!this WILL stretch the pectoral area more,so use lighter weights until you feel comfortable with it.it also makes a squarer,broader looking chest."elbows in"can create a narrow,"booby"look.

[Mdlftr]

[from Glam.....
regardless of your body position.you want your joints directly under the weight. .......i think elbows should be quite high.weight should touch at top of your sternum,CHIN DOWN!at no point should your wrists be inside your elbows.make sure your grip is wide enough so that wrists are directly over elbows at bottom of lift.&COME ALL THE WAY DOWN!

i've seen lots of guys only doing top half of lift.the bottom half is the important part!!this WILL stretch the pectoral area more,so use lighter weights until you feel comfortable with it.it also makes a squarer,broader looking chest.

"elbows in"can create a narrow,"booby"look.]

=========================

Glam--THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU! I have read lots of magazines, seen a lot of people, and I have NEVER heard anyone explain that point so well! Elbows out--square, broad pecs. Elbows in--narrow-chested booby!

Thanks for explaining it so pithily!

Mdlftr

P.S. From your pix (posted by Brent "boulder biceps") you obviously go elbows out!

[glammaman2000]

back when i was doing personal training,i was working with a good,intermediate level bodybuilder(they're the most fun!)he had a good size set of pecs.3WEEKS after correcting his form.he,i&most of his friends could see the change in shape.so it isn't just genetics.pithily yours.g.

[jmhol]

What tips would you give somebody who's just starting out, then? I have plenty of lower-body strength, but grew up not ever lifting, and therefore have no upper-body strength. I decided it was time to change that!! But, I want to do it correctly, so...I try to keep my back straight, and I try to be mindful of cheating by 'swinging,' but what is there that makes a big difference, that most (new) people wouldn't know otherwise?

[brent]

Here are a few bits I wish I was told 12 years ago:
1. Start slowly, it takes time to build a great physique. Always leave your body wanting more.
2. Focus on your key exercises at first: Bench press, rows, dead lifts, and squats.
3. Don't forget your back, or your shulders will go forward, which can cause injury over time.
4. Speaking of shoulder injurries, start doing these rotator cuff exercises now!
5. Just go into the gym, unless you are sick/injured. So you don't have the energy, just get on a treadmill, or an elliptical machine until you have the energy.
6. Stay in touch, we're rooting for you!

[glammaman2000]

...but not easy.when it comes down to it;there's a whole lot of"up/down-up/down".don't get too hung up on"more weight=more mass:more reps=more definition".the important thing is;"MORE!"if you reduce reps every time you go up on weight;you could end up doing the same amount of WORK(or less!)&if you can't do more weights or reps,concentrate on stricter form.it's natural to be a bit sloppy when you set a new "personal best"poundage for the first time.clean it up before movin'on.

[wbhunk]

Agreed, Glamma. The point is good form, then weight....teach the muscles how to do it right (and get them conditioned to lifting), then let them do more of it.