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Old November 6th, 2008, 07:08 PM
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CA Proposition 8

The protest surrounding this is not dying down. There was a protest in West LA this afternoon large enough for police to close 2 major routes as protesters marched from the Mormon Temple (organizer and significant contributor) to the Federal Building, and last night's protest in West Hollywood was significantly larger than anticipated.

A challenge has already been filed by 3 different groups with the California Supreme Court.

The page also includes an additional article on the status of those couples who have already received marriage licenses.
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Old November 6th, 2008, 07:16 PM
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The legal challenge to prop 8 is probably one of the most important civil rights cases I've seen. The question being posed is: can the fundamental rights enjoyed by all citizens be removed from a targeted minority by a majority vote? In legalese, the issue involves fundamental rights (marriage), suspect classification, and equal protection. In reality, should the courts rule against us, any minority group that is unpopular could lose rights enjoyed by everyone else.

Supporting groups like Lambda, the ACLU, and NCLR should be a priority for any fair-minded person.
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Old November 6th, 2008, 08:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Corwin View Post
The legal challenge to prop 8 is probably one of the most important civil rights cases I've seen. The question being posed is: can the fundamental rights enjoyed by all citizens be removed from a targeted minority by a majority vote? In legalese, the issue involves fundamental rights (marriage), suspect classification, and equal protection. In reality, should the courts rule against us, any minority group that is unpopular could lose rights enjoyed by everyone else.

Supporting groups like Lambda, the ACLU, and NCLR should be a priority for any fair-minded person.
An excellent point Corwin. IMO, people say (whether directly or indirectly) they don't want our government to pass laws and such based only on religious things; except of course, when it comes to us "evil" gays, can't have us around, can they? That would be a terrible thing, wouldn't it?

(Yes, the above paragraph was very sarcastic, so I hope nobody takes it the wrong way.)

This next bit may seem slightly off topic to some of you, but I think it fits this thread rather well. I believe it was Benjamin Franklin who said something along the lines of the following...

"For those who give up a little freedom, for a little security; deserve neither, and lose both."
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Old November 7th, 2008, 01:54 AM
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Once the precincts have all been declared (grumbles at the length of time California is taking to count 100% of precincts) I'll produce a list of the results including swing since 2000, gains and which counties need to vote NO in any future state ballot for the issue to pass.
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Old November 7th, 2008, 02:40 AM
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Not enough

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Originally Posted by RadRx View Post
The protest surrounding this is not dying down. There was a protest in West LA this afternoon large enough for police to close 2 major routes as protesters marched from the Mormon Temple (organizer and significant contributor) to the Federal Building, and last night's protest in West Hollywood was significantly larger than anticipated.
I learned during my protesting days years ago, when I lived in Oregon, that must shut down the city, not just a couple routes. You need to shut down subway stations, light rail lines, street cars, etc. The thing is that the media will only ever show you a small part of a crowd. So, to get real coverage, you must hit enough high volume areas, with so many people, that the city can't function. Then you headline the evening news! Many large demonstrations is far more powerful than a few HUGE ones. Flash groups really help get people talking too.
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Old November 7th, 2008, 09:24 AM
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Without seeming to diminish your point, Brent, the 2 routes that were closed were Wilshire and Santa Monica Boulevards. In that part of town LA has no subways, light rail or trolley cars, and those 2 streets are the major east/west routes leading to the only North/South freeway that passes through the mountains to the north.

The goal of the protest was not to obstruct traffic. That area is the site of the Mormon Temple of Los Angeles (on Sta. Monica Boulevard) and the Federal Building is within 2 miles on Wilshire Boulevard.

While not a complete shutdown, if it were any later and larger, and it could have brought most of the west side to a standstill. LA is too sprawling to bring to a complete halt.

AlterNet.org has another perspective on the situation, and the editorials are coming out in force against Prop 8.
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Old November 7th, 2008, 12:28 PM
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I lived in Utah for a very short period in the early 1990's & I learned that Mormon marriage ceremonies (temple ceremonies) involve appeasement of Satan. Also, they still believe in polygamy, and some sects still believe in infanticide. I wonder how much we don't know about this secretive society that is allowed to operate as a, "Church".

As for LA having no major mass transit, I've never lived there, bu it seems to me that there must be other major targets like the I5 maybe?
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Old November 7th, 2008, 04:49 PM
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Prop 8 result (with 100% of precincts declared)

Statewide Tallies
[COLOR="Lime"]YES, I agree with Prop 8: 5,454,192 (52.43% -8.93%)[/COLOR]
[COLOR="Red"]NO, I do not agree with Prop 8: 4,949,108 (47.57% +8.93%)[/COLOR]
[COLOR="Lime"]YES wins by 505,084 (4.86%) on a swing of 8.93% to NO[/COLOR]
[COLOR="Black"]County Changes[/COLOR]
[COLOR="Red"]NO Gains: Alpine (20% swing), Contra Costa (11% swing), Humboldt (13% swing), Mendocino (12% swing), Mono (16% swing), Monterey (8% swing), Napa (12% swing), San Mateo (13% swing), Santa Barbara (10% swing), Santa Clara (8% swing)[/COLOR]

GAINS to make next time to ensure passage
Los Angeles County: [COLOR="Lime"]YES 50.4%[/COLOR] [COLOR="Red"]NO 49.6%[/COLOR]
Nevada County: [COLOR="Lime"]YES 50.8%[/COLOR] [COLOR="Red"]NO 49.3%[/COLOR]
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Old November 7th, 2008, 04:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brent View Post
I lived in Utah for a very short period in the early 1990's & I learned that Mormon marriage ceremonies (temple ceremonies) involve appeasement of Satan. Also, they still believe in polygamy, and some sects still believe in infanticide. I wonder how much we don't know about this secretive society that is allowed to operate as a, "Church".
A brief history of Mormonism from Jules Verne in 1872:

Quote:
Passepartout approached and read one of these notices, which stated that Elder William Hitch, Mormon missionary, taking advantage of his presence on train No. 48, would deliver a lecture on Mormonism in car No. 117, from eleven to twelve o'clock; and that he invited all who were desirous
of being instructed concerning the mysteries of the religion of the "Latter Day Saints" to attend.

"I'll go," said Passepartout to himself. He knew nothing of Mormonism except the custom of polygamy, which is its foundation.

The news quickly spread through the train, which contained about one hundred passengers, thirty of whom, at most, attracted by the notice, ensconced themselves in car No. 117. Passepartout took one of the front seats. Neither Mr. Fogg nor Fix cared to attend.

At the appointed hour Elder William Hitch rose, and, in an irritated voice, as if he had already been contradicted, said, "I tell you that Joe Smith is a martyr, that his brother Hiram is a martyr, and that the persecutions of the United States Government against the prophets will also make a martyr of Brigham Young. Who dares to say the contrary?"

No one ventured to gainsay the missionary, whose excited tone contrasted curiously with his naturally calm visage. No doubt his anger arose from the hardships to which the Mormons were actually subjected. The government had just succeeded, with some difficulty, in reducing these independent fanatics to its rule. It had made itself master of Utah, and subjected that territory to the laws of the Union, after imprisoning Brigham Young on a charge of rebellion and polygamy. The disciples of the prophet had since redoubled their efforts, and resisted, by words at least, the authority of Congress. Elder Hitch, as is seen, was trying to make proselytes on the very railway trains.

Then, emphasising his words with his loud voice and frequent gestures, he related the history of the Mormons from Biblical times: how that, in Israel, a Mormon prophet of the tribe of Joseph published the annals of the new religion, and bequeathed them to his son Mormon; how, many centuries later, a translation of this precious book, which was written in Egyptian, was made by Joseph Smith, junior, a Vermont farmer, who revealed himself as a mystical prophet in 1825; and how, in short, the celestial messenger appeared to him in an illuminated forest, and gave him the annals of the Lord.

Several of the audience, not being much interested in the missionary's narrative, here left the car; but Elder Hitch, continuing his lecture, related how Smith, junior, with his father, two brothers, and a few disciples, founded the church of the "Latter Day Saints," which, adopted not only in America, but in England, Norway and Sweden, and Germany, counts many artisans, as well as men engaged in the liberal professions, among its members; how a colony was established in Ohio, a temple erected there at a cost of two hundred thousand dollars, and a town built at Kirkland; how Smith became an enterprising banker, and received from a simple mummy showman a papyrus scroll written by Abraham and several famous Egyptians.

The Elder's story became somewhat wearisome, and his audience grew gradually less, until it was reduced to twenty passengers. But this did not disconcert the enthusiast, who proceeded with the story of Joseph Smith's bankruptcy in 1837, and how his ruined creditors gave him a coat of tar and feathers; his reappearance some years afterwards, more honourable and honoured than ever, at Independence, Missouri, the chief of a flourishing colony of three thousand disciples, and his pursuit thence by outraged Gentiles, and retirement into the Far West.

Ten hearers only were now left, among them honest Passepartout, who was listening with all his ears. Thus he learned that, after long persecutions, Smith reappeared in Illinois, and in 1839 founded a community at Nauvoo, on the Mississippi, numbering twenty-five thousand souls, of which he became mayor, chief justice, and general-in-chief; that he announced himself,
in 1843, as a candidate for the Presidency of the United States; and that finally, being drawn into ambuscade at Carthage, he was thrown into prison, and assassinated by a band of men disguised in masks.

Passepartout was now the only person left in the car, and the Elder, looking him full in the face, reminded him that, two years after the assassination of Joseph Smith, the inspired prophet, Brigham Young, his successor, left Nauvoo for the banks of the Great Salt Lake, where, in the midst of that fertile region, directly on the route of the emigrants who crossed Utah on their way to California, the new colony, thanks to the polygamy practised by the Mormons, had flourished beyond expectations.

"And this," added Elder William Hitch, "this is why the jealousy of Congress has been aroused against us! Why have the soldiers of the Union invaded the soil of Utah? Why has Brigham Young, our chief, been imprisoned, in contempt of all justice? Shall we yield to force? Never! Driven from Vermont, driven from Illinois, driven from Ohio, driven from Missouri, driven from Utah, we shall yet find some independent territory on which to plant our tents. And you, my brother," continued the Elder, fixing his angry eyes
upon his single auditor, "will you not plant yours there, too, under the shadow of our flag?"

"No!" replied Passepartout courageously, in his turn retiring from the car, and leaving the Elder to preach to vacancy.
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Old November 7th, 2008, 05:41 PM
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A Petition is being circulated in an effort to strip the Mormon Church of its tax-exempt status.
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Old November 7th, 2008, 06:14 PM
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This is a blog post from a chaired professor in Civil Liberties and Civil Rights at the University of Minnesota Law School on the legal arguments being presented in the proposition 8 case. It is very well written.
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Old November 10th, 2008, 10:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brent View Post
... Flash groups really help get people talking too.
I regret missing the SF protest last Friday evening because I work in downtown SF. Had I known about the 'No on 8' protest in the Castro, I would have joined it after leaving work that day. I apparently didn't get the memo.

Sigh,

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Old November 11th, 2008, 06:31 PM
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There are protest being organized nationwide on Saturday

http://jointheimpact.wetpaint.com/?t=anon
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Old November 13th, 2008, 12:30 AM
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I don't consider myself a homosexual (I really haven't had the chance with a woman or man yet), so I was wondering if you guys could answer some questions I have.

First of all, I'm an atheist, so religion doesn't even enter my debate over this, but as such, I think "marriage" (the TERM) is strictly a religous concept that the church can voluntarily give to any couple they wish.

With that said, government extends benefits to "married" couples in the form of tax breaks and what not.

If the government referred to these "marriages" strictly on the fact that they are "civil unions" and ignored the concept of "marriage" entirely, would gay couples settle on the idea that to the government they are still a legal union under the law but leave "marriage" up to the individual religous institutions (that may or may not accept your lifestyle)?

Basically, to me, "marriage" is like an option (like putting an exhaust on your car or something - not to mitigate the practice... I'm just trying to draw a parallel), but the actual civil union between the man and woman... or woman and woman.. or man and man... is the same no matter what, entitling each type of couple to equal benefits and rights under the law.

"Marriage", however, would only be a decision that churches can make.

Is this realistic? Is there opposition to this?

I believe it gets everyone what they want (except for the bigots and religous zealots that simply don't like homosexuality) by giving YOU the rights you deserve (under the 9th amendment) and removing the government's respect for a particular religion (under the 1st amendment).

See, I don't see this as a religous or sexual issue. It's equality.

Since straight couples get benefits, gay couples should too because the 9th amendment does not allow for equality to be "denied or disparaged to others retained by the people". Seeing as equality is garunteed by the 9th amendment, the 10th amendment does not give states the authority to rule on this issue. So when the people violate the 9th amendment, the courts, as detailed in Article II, have a constitutional obligation to step in and set things right.

The only other option is to end the system of benefits to married couples (not an option at all, really).


So to sum up my long, drawn out opinion: Equality is the issue here. Equality cannot be violated no matter how many people think it's alright which takes the decision away from the states and gives the courts total authority to intervene.

But equality is only equality if it's equal. This means dropping the term "marriage" from the list of things you deserve and how the way government recognizes unions. You have to be willing to submit to the concept that marriage is a religous concept, a concept that the state has no jurisdiction over, so you cannot be "garunteed" it.

I believe this is the way to get homosexual couples recognized by the state and let them apply for the same rights as heterosexual couples.


Would homosexuals, or at least the small group of you here, have a problem with this?
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Old November 13th, 2008, 12:11 PM
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abbraxis,

Like every other issue man has argued over in our entire history, everybody is going to have an opinion about this and your not going to get even gay people to agree 100%.

I'm gay, but would be perfectly satisfied with the legal equality. That's because, and I'm gonna REALLY throw a wrench into the works here, I'm also a Christian but I don't believe in the church or organized religion...I see those as tools man has used to control his fellow man throughout history by using his faith against him. For me, marriage is a religious union in which I have no interest, yet I have a partner (who is not a Christian) who wants to get married...go figure.

There are, however, a lot of religious homosexuals that want very much to be able to marry the person they love in the church and there are a lot of non-religious homosexuals that just want the right to do it. I will support them in enforcing that right...the battle just isn't over yet.

But for my needs, your solution works just fine.
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Old November 20th, 2008, 02:01 PM
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Just today, someone who I watch over on dA posted this very simple deviation:

http://stardragon77.deviantart.com/a...op-8-104124244

This guy is straight as a rod, but he hits the nail perfectly on the head, especially in his comments:

"Recently in several states they made Proposition 8 which is essentially asking is gay marriage should be banned.

Really what this is is not only bigotry being made into law but also its the church interfering with public policy.

It goes to show that George Carlin was right, 'the seperation of church and state wasn't to protect the church from government, but to protect government from the church.'

And like George Carlin I say that if the church wants to get involved with public policy they should pay taxes. 'Pay your admission price like everyone else.'"
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Old November 24th, 2008, 05:40 PM
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Prop 8 Soon to Be In Court

Prop 8 is going to the CA State Supreme Court, possibly as early as March, and a decision will be made by the court within 90 days of that hearing.

It is going to court over the legal definitions within the California State Constitutions regarding "Revisions" versus "Amendments." Amendments are "additions to the Constitution." Revisions are "fundamental changes to the nature of California State Government." A revision is supposed to be approved by 2/3 of both houses of the state legislature before going before the people for a vote. Prop 8 was filed as an amendment, which only requires a majority vote by the people.

The LGBT community is arguing that Prop 8 is actually a revision, and they have a fairly strong case -- IF the members of the court are truly the strict interpretationists they claim to be. Prop 8 flies directly in the face of the equality clause, which has been present within the CA state constitution since its inception: "(b) A citizen or class of citizens may not be granted privilegesor immunities not granted on the same terms to all citizens."

It was this clause that was the primary reason same-sex marriage was permitted in the first place.
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Last edited by monstermusclebe; November 24th, 2008 at 05:52 PM. Reason: Adding something about Prop 8
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Old November 24th, 2008, 05:54 PM
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Responding to Abbraxis / Civil Unions for All? + LGBT and Religous Marriage

In response to your post in this thread, Abbraxis...

I think, as far as civil rights and being equal under the law is concerned, that the GLBT community would be happy with civil unions provided that it was all that straight couples were granted, too.

The problem there is that the straight community won't go for that, "They" want "their" marriages legally recognized as such, rather than being referred to by another name. Why? Because they actually DO know that separate-but-equal is not equal, when it refers to something that affects them directly. They know that calling their relationship a "civil union" is not the same as calling it a "marriage." It isn't just semantics.

So forget getting rid of "legal marriage" as an option, at least for now. That fight is even BIGGER than the fight for marriage equality that is going on today... Why? Because you are going right up against a long-standing legal institution that the great majority of the culture currently subscribes to, and is quite happy with, thank you very much! And most of "them" aren't nearly as logical as you are. :-)

As for the religious side of the picture, I point you to the organization Soulforce, http://www.soulforce.org. They are offering Gandhian and MLK-like nonviolent noncooperation within the religions that their members are a part of, in regards to LGBT rights to marriage -- primarily within christian denominations, but also within Islam, and I am sure they would begin to focus on other religions once the main battle with christianity has moved forward significantly.

So the "battle" for equality of marriage within religions is definitely being "fought" on that level as well.
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Old November 27th, 2008, 02:42 PM
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I thought the CA supreme court had agreed to convene in order to decide the status of the 16000 - 18000 couples already holding marriage licenses. I hadn't realized they'd agreed to take up the 'revision v. amendment' discussion.
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Old November 28th, 2008, 05:46 PM
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CA Supreme Court

They're looking into both the revision v. amendment as well as the status of the existing same-sex marriages. Likely to see the hearing before April, with a decision before the end of June... though that is 'likely' not 'definite.'
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