Before and After -Part 5

[johnd]

Part 1: http://www.musclegrowth.org/forum/sh...ad.php?t=17826

Part 2: http://www.musclegrowth.org/forum/sh...ad.php?t=17920

Part 3: http://www.musclegrowth.org/forum/sh...ad.php?t=17920

Part 4: http://www.musclegrowth.org/forum/sh...ad.php?t=18118

Before and After - Part 5
By John D.

The next day, Brian got up before Jimmy and made a big breakfast for Jimmy. He let Jimmy sleep as long as he wanted, which was 10 hours. He knew Jimmy?s muscles were growing as he slept. When Jimmy awoke, Brian brought his big breakfast into the bedroom. ?Breakfast in bed, stud. I made scrambled eggs, sausage, toast and a fruit salad. Plus you have orange juice and milk. And I scrambled 12 eggs, a whole carton. I ate just one of them. So you get 11. After seeing you last night I figured you would eat all of it. Jimmy grinned and started eating. As Brian predicted, he ate all the eggs and everything else. Jimmy rubbed his flat stomach when he was done. ?It feels so great to be full. I know that food is going to build more muscle. Your food is delicious, Brian.? Jimmy got out of bed totally naked. Brian looked carefully at his body. He thought Jimmy?s muscles had grown overnight. ?Maybe it?s a optical illusion, but I think your muscles are bigger, Jimmy. You look bigger. More muscular.? Jimmy went into the bathroom and checked out his body. He flexed his lats and then his arm. ?Yeah, maybe you?re right. My lats look bigger. I?ve got more of a V shape. And my arm looks a little bigger too. It?s all your good food, Brian. I?m getting big! I?m getting huge!? Brian came over and ran his hands on Jimmy?s body. ?And you have two more days to gain more muscle! I can?t wait to see how much you weigh on Monday.?

Jimmy and Brian had a great weekend. Brian cooked a lot of food and Jimmy ate it all. They went to the health food store and bought more protein, some vitamins and creatine. Jimmy started taking it right away. They saw a movie and they went to a gay bar. They had each been to the bar before and neither of them got any attention from the other guys. This time Jimmy was wearing a tank top and guys kept looking over at him and smiling at him. Jimmy was hot! Brian could see what was happening. ?They all want to hit on you. You are so fucking hot. Blue eyes, gorgeous face and muscles that are blossoming on your body. But I saw you first!? Jimmy laughed. ?Yeah, you got me. How could I leave you with all the good food you make. Plus you?re a nice guy with a cute face and a bubble but. And you?re a bottom.? He reached over and kissed Brian on the forehead. All the guys looking at Jimmy knew what that meant. Jimmy was taken.

They had a couple of beers and then Jimmy was hungry again. So they went to his apartment and Brian fixed him another big meal. Brian went to his own apartment Sunday night. He need fresh clothes for work. But he showed up at Jimmy?s apartment and made him a big breakfast on Monday morning. He also made four sandwiches, tuna and chicken salad. Jimmy would eat two sandwiches in the morning along with a Muscle Milk and the other two sandwiches in the afternoon with a Muscle Milk. And he would have a huge Google-paid lunch.

Jimmy wore one of his buttoned short sleeved shirts to the office. The shirt was now very tight on him. He didn?t know how much his chest measured, but it was sure more than 33 inches. The shirt was very tight. He got to his cubicle. Ben had just arrived and was standing next to his desk. Ben?s eyes got wide as he saw how tight the shirt was on Jimmy?s body. Jimmy grinned and said, ?I?m still so tired. I need to stretch.? He raised his arms over his head and then lowered them while flexing his lats and chest and biceps. Instantly the shirt burst apart. The buttons popped and one of them hit Ben in the face. ?Oh sorry Ben. I guess my muscles got too big for this shirt. I?m gonna have to buy some bigger clothes. Bigger clothes for my big muscles.? Jimmy ripped off the shirt and stood there shirtless in front of Ben flexing his pecs and lats and abs. Even though Jimmy had eaten a ton of food, he still had no fat on his body. Only muscle. ?Holy shit,? gasped Ben, not quite believing what he was seeing. Jimmy raised his arms and flexed his biceps. ?I think I?m a gay guy who can build muscle,? he said. Ben stammered, ?Oh fuck, you are! You put on more muscle than five straight guys could. I can?t believe it. All that food you?ve been eating has turned into muscle.? Jimmy grinned and grabbed a tee shirt out of his backpack and put it on. It was also tight on his body. He really did need to go out and buy new clothes.

Jimmy felt real good working on his computer. His body felt so energized, so alive. He ate two of his sandwiches and his Muscle Milk at about 10:30. Then at noon he was hungry for a big lunch. As usual, Ben joined him for lunch. Jimmy loaded up two plates with lots of chicken, fish, rice and vegetables. Ben stared at all that food as Jimmy started wolfing it down. Brian showed up too with another gay guy who worked in his unit. ?I wanted to show Kevin your muscles, Jimmy. He can?t believe you got so big so fast. I showed him your ?before? pictures, the ones I made copies of this weekend. He can?t believe a guy who was that skinny last Monday could be muscular now.? Jimmy smiled at Kevin, who was about 5?9? tall and very skinny. He stood up and slowly removed his tee shirt. Then he slowly flexed his biceps. ?Oh my god!? yelled Kevin. ?He?s gotten so muscular! He?s already big and muscular! Oh fuck!? Jimmy looked down and saw that Kevin?s cock was trying to push through his pants. He was rock hard. Brian laughed. ?See I told you. Jimmy?s got the best genetics ever. He never exercised in his life until last Monday. Then his body just exploded. He?s gonna get huge, Kevin. He?s gonna be able to bench 400 and squat with 500, no problem. He?s gonna be able to lift cars off the ground. He?s gonna be able to press guys over his head and throw them around like pillows. He?s gonna get real huge.? Kevin had his tongue sticking out and was nodding his head as he looked at Jimmy?s body. Ben was trembling. He remembered that Jimmy told him he was going to pick him up and fuck him. He had laughed at the time. Now he was trembling.

Jimmy and Brian went to the gym after work. They couldn?t wait to see how much weight Jimmy had gained. He changed into his tank top and walked out of the locker room. Every eye in the gym stared at him. He was way bigger than Friday and the other guys could see it. His arms were bigger. His shoulders were bigger. His lats were bigger. His pecs were bigger. His legs were bigger. And he still had absolutely no fat on his body. They couldn?t believe what they were seeing.

Chad immediately ran over and said, ?Holy shit! You look so much bigger! Your muscles have gotten so big! So big and so shredded. What the fuck have you been doing, going to a medicine man?? Jimmy laughed. Brian said, ?He?s been eating like a pig all weekend. I?m a good cook and I?ve been making him huge meals of good food. He?s eating five meals a day, plus he?s taking lots of protein in between meals. He?s always fucking hungry! We bought creatine and tons of protein at the health food store and Jimmy?s been wolfing it down. And his body is turning it all into muscle!? Chad looked at Jimmy?s body. ?I?ve never seen anything like this in my life. Usually it takes six months to put on the kind of muscle you have. And you did it in a week! Get on the scale. Let?s see how much you weigh.?

Jimmy got on the scale and Chad gasped. ?Jesus Christ! You weigh 148 pounds. You gained 13 pounds since Friday! And it?s all muscle! You gained 23 pounds in a week! Twenty-three pounds of pure muscle! There's still no fat on your body!? Jimmy grinned and flexed his biceps. "Big and hard," he said as Chad looked at the muscle. "Feel 'em." So Chad wrapped his muscular fingers around Jimmy's bicep and squeezed. "Oh fuck. It's really hard. It's as hard as my bicep." Then he squeezed with his strong fingers but he couldn't make a dent in Jimmy's rock hard bicep. "I've never seen anything like this. I can always put an dent in guys' biceps, but not yours. Your muscles got so big and so hard! I gotta measure them. I wanna see how much bigger they got." He got his measuring tape. "Okay, first the chest. Flex those new muscles." Jimmy flexed and Chad wrapped the tape around his bulging pecs and lats. "Holy shit! Forty inches! Your chest grew from 33 to 40 inches in a week. And it's all solid muscle!" Jimmy looked down and saw a bulge in Chad's shorts. Even though he was straight, Jimmy's fast muscle growth was turning him on. He liked muscles and he couldn't believe Jimmy had gained them so fast. Jimmy was a true mesomorph, the kind of guy who can build muscles easily, the athletic guy, the strong guy. Chad was a mesomorph but Jimmy was even more of a mesomorph. And that turned him on.

"Now the biceps. Flex those guns." Jimmy flexed his biceps and Chad wrapped the tape around his big right bicep, a muscle that looked like a baseball. "Oh my God," said Chad. "That thing is 13 inches around. You gained 3-1/2 inches of muscle! Your arm looked like a stick before. Now its thick with muscle! And it's as hard as rock." Jimmy grinned and Brian put his fingers around the muscle, muscle that he had been feeling all weekend. "Yeah, just like rock. Warm hard rock. Warm, hard, super strong rock."

Chad moved the tape down to Jimmy's legs and wrapped it around his thighs. Jimmy flexed his new quads and hamstrings and Chad gasped again. "Twenty inches. You put 4 inches on those mothers. I bet they're real strong. I'm gonna love watching you push those weights. I can't even imagine the weight you're gonna lift today. But first we gotta take some pictures. Usually I don't take "after" pictures until three months of lifting, but you've gained muscle so fast I wanna take some now. You look like you've been working out six months."

So Jimmy first stood in front of the camera. He flexed his chest and lats and abs and legs a little bit and the muscles bulged even though he was standing in a relaxed position. He looked totally different than he looked a week before. Before he looked like a living skeleton. Now he looked muscular, strong, vibrant. He was still a little on the skinny side, but he was all muscle. Hard strong muscle. All Chad could say was "Wow!" Next he hit a double biceps pose. His new biceps bulged into balls of muscle and he triceps bulged under them. A week before he arm looked almost flat. Now it was bulging with muscle. Striated pulsating muscle covered with veins. After Chad had taken the picture, Brian came over and felt Jimmy's flexing arm again. "Hard as a rock! I love feeling Jimmy's muscles. He is such a stud!" Of course Brian's cock was rock hard and Chad could easily see that. Chad's cock was a little hard too.

Jimmy hit a most muscular pose, a back pose and a side triceps pose. Brian could hardly wait to see the comparison between his "before" pictures and his one week "after" pictures. He wondered what Jimmy would look like after one month. Three months. Six months. His cock got harder and he licked his tongue on his lips. "Okay, Chad," he said. "Stand next to Jimmy. I'm gonna take pictures of the two of you together. This time Jimmy's gonna look pretty good standing next to you. And soon he's gonna be as big as you. Then he's gonna be bigger! You're gonna look like a midget standing next to that big boy!" Jimmy grinned and Chad looked over at his body. Could it really happen? he wondered. Jimmy looked very good in those pictures. His muscles were more ripped, more striated than Chad's muscles. He had even less fat on his body than Chad. And his muscles looked harder, more defined and harder than Chad's. Brian rubbed his cock.

After they were done with the pictures, Chad got out a piece of paper. "Here's your new exercise routine, Jimmy. It's a hard core routine, the kind of routine a big bodybuilder would use. But you said you wanted to try it and I can see your body is ready for it. On Monday you do chest. On Tuesday you do back. One Wednesday you do shoulders. On Thursday you do arms. And on Friday you do legs. And every other day you work your abs. You're gonna do at least five exercises for each body part, with one warmup set and four heavy work sets for each exercise. At the end of the workout you're gonna be exhausted. But your muscles are gonna have a week to grow, and they're gonna grow big and fast with this routine. You're a mesomorph Jimmy. Your muscles are gonna love this routine. They're gonna get huge." As usual, Chad was very motivational. Jimmy and Brian both grinned. Jimmy could hardly wait to start.

It was Monday, so it was chest day. Jimmy looked at the exercises. Dumbbell incline presses. Bench Press. Dumbbell decline presses. Pec deck. Dumbbell pullovers. Cable pulls. Six exercises for Jimmy's chest. Hard grueling exercises. Jimmy flexed his pec muscles and felt the hard fibers. They were ready.

Then a big young man walked over to them. "Oh shit," said Brian. "It's Steve." The guy was about 5' 10" tall and probably weighed 200 pounds. He looked like a jock, a jock who was now working and had put some fat on top of his muscle. But he definitely looked like a jock. He walked up and grabbed Brian's arm, squeezing Brian's little bicep muscle with his big fingers. "How ya doin' dork?" Brian trembled and said, "Okay. How are you Steve?" The big guy smiled. He squeezed harder on Brian's arm and then let go. "Oh just great. I got a big bonus last month. I sold a ton of stuff. I love being a sales guy here at Google. You little dorks design the stuff and we big jocks go out and sell it. I love to play golf with the customers, to shmooze them at dinners and to sell, sell, sell. All you little geeks do is sit in front of your computers and press a bunch of keys. Just like high school huh? I was the big jock, the starting running back on the football team. I ruled the fucking school. And you were just a little dork, just like you are now. I loved to push you around. I remember when I shoved you into a locker and told you not to come out for two hours or you'd be smashed by my big fists. And you stayed in there the whole two hours! You missed three classes and your parents got a note. That was so funny!"

Brian looked at Steve in the eyes,. "It might have been funny to you, but it was hell for me. I hate you Steve. I hated you in school and I still hate you." Steve smiled and grabbed his arm again and squeezed hard. "Do you think I give a shit?" A tear started down Brian's cheek and Steve sneered. Then Steve looked over at Jimmy. "So you're Brian's friend. You're another fucking dork. Yeah, I see you put on a little muscle but you're still skinny as shit. Brian did the same thing. He put on a few pounds of muscle and then it stopped. He couldn't put on any more muscle. He tried to look like me but he couldn't. Because he's a dork. And you're a dork too. You might get to 160 pounds or so but the your muscle is gonna stop growing. Because you're a dork. You're not a jock like me." He flexed his arm right in Jimmy's face. "That's a muscle," he said. "You're never gonna have a muscle like that." Then he squeezed Brian in the arm again, making him almost cry, and turned around and went back to his workout.

"That guy is such a bully," said Brian. "We went to the same grade school, the same middle school and the high school and he was a bully the whole time. He hurt me so many times. God I hate that guy. And here he is at Google still picking on me." Tears started dripping down Brian's cheeks as he felt his sore arm and thought about all the pain he had suffered from Steve's bullying. Jimmy rubbed the tears off Brian's cheeks. "Well, maybe he'll get some payback," said Jimmy as he rubbed Brian's hand over his pec muscles. "Time to make these muscles grow."

TO BE CONTINUED

[arpeejay]

I see comeuppance in Steve's future! And muscle in Jimmy's!

Thanks for another great chapter, John!

xoxo

Richard

[Mdlftr]

JohnD<
I've got to hand it to you. You've managed to deliver yet another muscle growth story, but you're not going to your "usual" dom/sub scenario. The number of characters and their interactions and motivations are interesting!

Keep it up! Good work!

Mdlftr

[Ender]

Steve gives a whole new dimension to the concept of Big Dumb Jock... Since they are in a "Goggle Gym" and Steve's attack on Brian was witnessed by both Chad, Jimmy and probably others; Steve must be totally brain dead. Because Brian could have Steve looking a new job (or at least in mandatory consulting and job probation) in a heart beat; if this was in the real world.

I hope Mdlftr is right about the direction Johnd is taking... that Jimmy is not coercing Brian's submissive position to Jimmy is a good sign. But if Jimmy actually considered Brian to be a friend, wouldn't he try to push Brian into being all he can be rather than just basking in Brian's worship.

In the last chapter Chad had become supportive to Jimmy but in this chapter he comes very close to becoming an out right sycophant to him. The turn around from insultingly dismissive and condincending to sycophant in a week is even more unbelievible than Jimmy putting on 23lb 7"-Chest and 3.5"-Upper Arm.

Ender.

[johnd]

Chad wasn't there when Steve arrived. Jimmy was getting ready to work his chest when Steve showed up. I've been to a lot of gyms and I think it is pretty easy for three guys to have a conversation outside of the hearing of others. And yeah, Jimmy's getting big. At least he didn't drink some potion and put on 200 pounds overnight.

[philat99]

Maybe no magic potion, but his genes sure must be most receptive and responsive!!!
Mike

[Jack of Blades]

Well I was bullied like that in school. Unfortunately for some it has left me in a state that I really Really REALLY HATE bullies.

With that in mind, I hope Steve has a very severe comeuppance, or I shall have to do it for you. Probably in the form of kicking him in the balls, whacking him between the eyes, grabbing his wrist and twisting his arm upside down, before breaking each of his fingers one after another and then breaking the wrist. I think that'd about suit.

Yeah, there is the bit of the sadist in me, but only when it comes to bullies.

[giantw]

Originally Posted by Ender

Steve gives a whole new dimension to the concept of Big Dumb Jock... Since they are in a "Goggle Gym" and Steve's attack on Brian was witnessed by both Chad, Jimmy and probably others; Steve must be totally brain dead. Because Brian could have Steve looking a new job (or at least in mandatory consulting and job probation) in a heart beat; if this was in the real world.

I hope Mdlftr is right about the direction Johnd is taking... that Jimmy is not coercing Brian's submissive position to Jimmy is a good sign. But if Jimmy actually considered Brian to be a friend, wouldn't he try to push Brian into being all he can be rather than just basking in Brian's worship.

In the last chapter Chad had become supportive to Jimmy but in this chapter he comes very close to becoming an out right sycophant to him. The turn around from insultingly dismissive and condincending to sycophant in a week is even more unbelievible than Jimmy putting on 23lb 7"-Chest and 3.5"-Upper Arm.

Ender.

Are you just intent on bashing the story at every turn? So your most recent pearl of criticism is that you're having a difficult time believing this FICTIONAL account because Jimmy is growing too fast and Chad's behavior has changed too abuptly. Well, here's the good thing about fiction Ender: you don't have to believe it, because it is not real....pssst...guess what (whispers) It's fiction! It only works if you take the effort to suspend your disbelief. But that would require you to make an effort above and beyond complaining...

Here, let me show you how this constructive criticism thing is done. Let's say I have an idea for JohnD regarding the format and presentation (NOT THE CONTENT) of the story:

JohnD, another great offering. I love how big Jimmy is getting, and how everyone is reacting to his BIG change. It might be cool to track these changes through diary entries, just to see how fast or slow Jimmy is growing. I sometimes get confused exactly how much time has passed, and I am sort of a stickler for dates, times, weights, measurements, etc. Or maybe you can use that in another story. Anyways, just a thought. Keep up the awesome work, man!

[jsmith2300]

Ha ha. I love you Giantworshipper. Too funny. Nice to see someone put Ender's comments in deserved perspective. Appreciate your post here. I agree totally - JohnD is doing great work & we should celebrate his posts as such.

--JSmith

Originally Posted by giantw

Are you just intent on bashing the story at every turn? So your most recent pearl of criticism is that you're having a difficult time believing this FICTIONAL account because Jimmy is growing too fast and Chad's behavior has changed too abuptly. Well, here's the good thing about fiction Ender: you don't have to believe it, because it is not real....pssst...guess what (whispers) It's fiction! It only works if you take the effort to suspend your disbelief. But that would require you to make an effort above and beyond complaining...

Here, let me show you how this constructive criticism thing is done. Let's say I have an idea for JohnD regarding the format and presentation (NOT THE CONTENT) of the story:

JohnD, another great offering. I love how big Jimmy is getting, and how everyone is reacting to his BIG change. It might be cool to track these changes through diary entries, just to see how fast or slow Jimmy is growing. I sometimes get confused exactly how much time has passed, and I am sort of a stickler for dates, times, weights, measurements, etc. Or maybe you can use that in another story. Anyways, just a thought. Keep up the awesome work, man!

[Bull]

I don't see anything wrong with Ender's criticisms. Just because someone is writing fiction doesn't mean they shouldn't make an effort to be believable, within the reality of the story. I'm having real problems with the reality presented here.

In what world would a gay man sit still for the kind of verbal abuse these guys do? How are we supposed to care about characters who obviously have no self-respect? What gym would allow a trainer to continue at his job when he regularly abuses the clients? What kind of clients would stand for that, let alone moon over that trainer? What company would tolerate an employee who regularly abuses his colleagues?

The underlying assumption seems to be that anyone who isn't a born mesomorph is actually deserving of this kind of abuse, unless he manages to build some muscle himself. And that's pretty creepy and offensive.

I guess you could say this takes place in an alternative reality where this is the norm. But it isn't a reality I'm enjoying visiting.

[giantw]

OK...so don't visit it. Why come back, chapter after chapter, story after story, only to be offended, unless you enjoy complaining about these stories.

I hate celery. It sickens me. That's why I never order it. But I don't sit there and eat plate after plate of celery, and then complain about it afterward. I simply stay away from it.

I have to think you enjoy complaining about JohnD's stories; that you and others get some sort of satisfaction out of bullying the author.

[Ender]

As I said earlier, I thought there were some indications that the story might be trying to follow a different template than many of JohnD's stories either one character abuses another and the abused party gets his jollies from being abused or the an abused character becomes able to not just resist the actions of his abuser but begins to abuse his former abusers to an extent that exceeds the original abuse becoming more sadistic than the original abuser ever thought of being...

If you will a "zero-sum" or "negative-sum" game the "winner's gain is never more than what is taken from the loser and all parties may actually lose. In the end one party may dominate the others but ultimately no one wins...

When Chad started becoming supportive of Jimmy was a good sign as was Jimmy and Brian teaming up... It appeared that we might be heading in a direction where the outcome of the game might allow all parties to gain in some way from the exchange. A glimmer of hope in a normally depressing world... But now Chad is almost worshiping Jimmy and Jimmy is allowing Brian to worship him to the point of supporting Jimmy at Brian's own expense and detriment... and we seem to be heading back to the old formula.

Maybe I misread JohnD's intention and he wasn't trying to explore a different plot-line here... If so my apologies to all and especially JohnD.

Ender

[Mdlftr]

Originally Posted by Bull

I don't see anything wrong with Ender's criticisms. Just because someone is writing fiction doesn't mean they shouldn't make an effort to be believable, within the reality of the story. I'm having real problems with the reality presented here.


The underlying assumption seems to be that anyone who isn't a born mesomorph is actually deserving of this kind of abuse, unless he manages to build some muscle himself. And that's pretty creepy and offensive.

I guess you could say this takes place in an alternative reality where this is the norm. But it isn't a reality I'm enjoying visiting.

A-MEN, Brother!

And before people accuse me of piling on, consider this: I've written stories and posted here before. I am nowhere near as prolific or as detailed as many of the writers here (JohnD being a case in point). I have some sense of how hard it is to keep story ideas fresh and entertaining. I like JohnD's writing style and details. One of his earlier stories, "Cousins" which did have his tropes of abuse followed by comeuppance is one of my favorites stories on this site.

WHy the difference in my rxn. to "Cousins" versus this? Well, in "Cousins" the set up was more realistic in that an egotistical cousin who had gotten to age 15 on his looks and inherent skill thought he was all that and abused his "later bloomer" cousin in a very nasty, but realistic way. The "late bloomer" had believable strength of character that allowed him to perserve, accompanied by flashes of progress which gave him insight (when he first flexed his bicep and felt a lump of muscle --that was his "aha" moment).

Here, we have a quasi-realistic workplace scenario, which is close enough to real life that many of us can immediately spot the false notes. A trainer would be restrained in his comments to clients. In this work place, the geeks, by virtue of their superior intellect and skills, ARE superior to some high school "barely graduated" doofus who can only get a job as a trainer. Let's face it, the trainer is low man on the totem pole. The geeks have the money, the job skills and the bright future. And now, they will soon have the bodies, and they won't have to put up with the trainer's abuse anymore.

I'm with Ender and Bull and Jack of Blades in saying that the abuse is not titilating. The muscle growth is. The positive relationships are. I keep hoping we'll see more of that and less of the abuse.

My two cents.

[giantw]

Originally Posted by Mdlftr

A-MEN, Brother!

And before people accuse me of piling on, consider this: I've written stories and posted here before. I am nowhere near as prolific or as detailed as many of the writers here (JohnD being a case in point). I have some sense of how hard it is to keep story ideas fresh and entertaining. I like JohnD's writing style and details. One of his earlier stories, "Cousins" which did have his tropes of abuse followed by comeuppance is one of my favorites stories on this site.

WHy the difference in my rxn. to "Cousins" versus this? Well, in "Cousins" the set up was more realistic in that an egotistical cousin who had gotten to age 15 on his looks and inherent skill thought he was all that and abused his "later bloomer" cousin in a very nasty, but realistic way. The "late bloomer" had believable strength of character that allowed him to perserve, accompanied by flashes of progress which gave him insight (when he first flexed his bicep and felt a lump of muscle --that was his "aha" moment).

Here, we have a quasi-realistic workplace scenario, which is close enough to real life that many of us can immediately spot the false notes. A trainer would be restrained in his comments to clients. In this work place, the geeks, by virtue of their superior intellect and skills, ARE superior to some high school "barely graduated" doofus who can only get a job as a trainer. Let's face it, the trainer is low man on the totem pole. The geeks have the money, the job skills and the bright future. And now, they will soon have the bodies, and they won't have to put up with the trainer's abuse anymore.

I'm with Ender and Bull and Jack of Blades in saying that the abuse is not titilating. The muscle growth is. The positive relationships are. I keep hoping we'll see more of that and less of the abuse.

My two cents.

Two cents more than it's worth. It is not constructive when you are essentially telling the author to write about something else because you disagree with the content. You come off sounding more like a censor. It is not constructive to point out that the author has failed to satisfy your arbitrary demands on realism and has therefore failed to....titilate...you.

Maybe JohnD doesn't want or need your criticism, and just seeks to entertain, which he does on a wide scale.

Without adding more fuel to what is a POINTLESS conversation, let me make two observations:

1) It sounds like many of you who object to JohnD's stories were bullied as kids. It is not right, much less mature, to bash his stories simply because you persoanlly were bullied. So sorry you were bullied, but you're an adult now: get over it. You can avoid these bullies by not reading the story.

2) The more you bash these authors with criticism which is EVIDENTLY unhelpful, the less people will want to post here. THEN what will you have to whine about?

Thank you JohnD, and to ALL the authors of this site. MdLftr, you are a far better author than literary critic. We could really use that creative output you have shown in other instances.

[Ender]

This is not aimed at this story or JohnD... It is directed solely at GiantW reply...

Originally Posted by giantw

.... snip.... let me make two observations:
1) It sounds like many of you who object to JohnD's stories were bullied as kids. It is not right, much less mature, to bash his stories simply because you personally were bullied. So sorry you were bullied, but you're an adult now: get over it. You can avoid these bullies by not reading the story.

It is very likely that you are correct in your observation many of those who have issues with the interpersonal abuse that occurs in some stories were, as kids, the targets of bullies. But as Aardvark2 points out in "Hunter: Fantasy, Football, Frenzy" although the wounds may heal the scars never completely go away.

The issue is not the bullying... The issue is when depicting getting off on abusing other people as being cool, okay, and generally acceptable behaviour... and the victims of abuse are shown inflicting equal or greater abuse on others including the people that abused them in the first place... To intentionally hurt anyone is wrong...

Where you are wrong in your observation is that the people who have "gotten over being bullied" are the ones that realize that intentionally hurting others is wrong... it's the people that condone bullying for what ever reason that have a problem...

It's one thing if consenting adults mutually agree to role play or even act out domination, submission and sadomasochistic games... but it is some totally different when these games are extended to include people that have not agreed to be part of the game...

Muscle Growth gay or straight does not automatically include domination, submission and sadomasochistic behaviors.

Ender

[giantw]

Consent is not an issue for fictional characters because they do not actually exist.

And where YOU are wrong is that muscle growth can include overtones of domination and submission, and that many readers enjoy it, though you may never understand this. Yet, you persist in raining over everyone's parade, in an outlet that is safe, agreeable, and purely fictional. In these posts, your personal misfortunes are the centerpiece and I fail to see how that is in any way constructive.

Your efforts would be better served righting the bullies who so wronged you as a schoolboy by writing a story of your own, where the picked-on protagonist grows into a studly hunk who no-one would ever mess with and is loved by everyone. I promise you, as much as such this sweet and cuddly theme might sicken me, I would never pollute it with negative comments as you have felt the need to do with Johnd's work.

[Mdlftr]

Originally Posted by giantw

Thank you JohnD, and to ALL the authors of this site. MdLftr, you are a far better author than literary critic. We could really use that creative output you have shown in other instances.

Gee, thanks! [I think]
We'll 'agree to disagree' on the subject of commenting on writer's works.

I, personally, look for commentary on my stories, good or bad. I may not agree with anything said that is negative, but it may give me, as an author, food for thought.

If all responses to all stories are always, "oh yeah, that's great" then authors don't get the benefit of constructive criticism and the chance to improve.

I don't think any author who has enough gumption to post their work on here is traumatized by criticism which is less than flattering.

I'm sure JohnD and any other author who chooses to post here will survive commentary, good or bad. As an author, the response to my story is what I enjoy, whether I agree with it or not.

Now go away while I think of my next opus....

Mdlftr

[Ender]

Point by point...

1. Consent is not an issue for fictional characters because they do not actually exist.

Agreed but the absence of consent is what makes it porn rather than erotica... and that the characters don't actually exist keeps it from being a crime...

2. And where YOU are wrong is that muscle growth can include overtones of domination and submission, and that many readers enjoy it, though you may never understand this. Yet, you persist in raining over everyone's parade, in an outlet that is safe, agreeable, and purely fictional. In these posts, your personal misfortunes are the centerpiece and I fail to see how that is in any way constructive.

What I said was "Muscle Growth gay or straight does not automatically include domination, submission and sadomasochistic behaviors." I never said that it can't or never includes those features. I made an observation and you elected to attack me. Why do you feel personally threatened by my stating an opinion, and feel it is necessary to suppress that opinion from being voiced. If you didn't feel threatened is someway wouldn't it be logical for you to ignore my opinion in exactly the same way you want me to ignore opinions that I am troubled by. You must at some level believe that there is some validity to my point of view for you to feel so motivated to silence its expression.

3. Your efforts would be better served righting the bullies who so wronged you as a schoolboy by writing a story of your own, where the picked-on protagonist grows into a studly hunk who no-one would ever mess with and is loved by everyone. I promise you, as much as such this sweet and cuddly theme might sicken me, I would never pollute it with negative comments as you have felt the need to do with Johnd's work.

You feel the way to get over the hurt someone feels about having been abused in someway by another person is to write stories where the protagonist avenges himself on the people that abused him. To in effect become the same as those who had hurt and abused in the first place. If every one were advocates of "An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth" system of dealing with people there would be a whole lot of toothless blind men running around. I would like to think that humans for moved beyond that.

You say I should get over having been bullied... well I have... When someone lays in to a personal attack on me like a two-bit school yard bully I don't meekly cower or run off to hide anymore... I don't have a problem with you giantw, but you seem to have a problem with me. There is nothing I can do to keep you from feeling threatened by ideas and opinions you don't agree with. It is not my intention to be threatening to you. You are not threatening to me. You opened the personal attack on me. So I suggest you get over whatever it is you have against me.

Ender

[johnd]

This is an interesting discussion because I was bullied when I was about 11-12 years old and I think that is why I am writing. I was (and still am) very unathletic and I was called a "freak" by several muscular guys in my class. It was more mental than physical bullying but it made me feel terrible. I kept dreaming of becoming big and muscular and beating up those guys but of course it never happened. I think my fascination about muscle arose at that time. I became sexually attracted to muscular guys and I thought about what that muscle could do. Sometimes I would dream of what it would be like to be that big and strong and sometimes I would dream about what a guy like that could do to weak little me. So I write about all of this and I think some people enjoy my stories although Before and After hasn't received a lot of response (except for this thread).