Please Stop Posting Underage Stories!

[fleXodus]

As an operator of this forum, I've normally taken a pretty hands-off approach with the Muscle Growth Story Submission section of the forum, but the recent rash of stories featuring underage characters has begun to outpace other stories and is drawing the ire of members as well. While I was fine with some of these "Muscle Boy" type-stories appearing here and there, the sheer number of these type of tales coming out recently has been shifting the tone and taste of this site in a manner that I feel much at odds with. It's just not the direction -- nor manner of unwanted attention -- that I'd want for this site. I can understand coming-of-age tales where characters are enduring the throes of puberty, but the particular tales in question are those that are thematically fixated on characters' young ages.

With my apologies to the authors who were so generous in sharing their work with others: This isn't so much a free speech issue as it is one of taste and appropriateness for this particular website.

Though for now I'll continue to allow users to post new stories without moderation, I will strongly suggest from here on out that stories involve characters 16 years of age or older. This age limit isn't a hard-and-fast rule, but any stories fixating on the extreme youth of characters are subject to review and deletion. To those who disagree with this, my apologies.

[RPM]

I don't have anything to say this time that I haven't said the last 10 times this came up

The recent western-society magic-age-18 trend is one of the all-around worst, older societies knew what they were doing when they married people off at age 12-14, were wise enough to not deny that sexuality developed so early and hope they could ignore it for the next 5-10 years, blah blah, etc.

[ToolShedCub]

thank you!

not a fan of kiddie stories and i do have to say that the stories have been rather lame recently

[mjtunstall1976]

i agree wiht you modulator!!

think it is time we need to make sure their age is sufficient to do the job

cheers

[arpeejay]

Flexodus, as usual your approach is diplomatic, pragmatic, and sensible.

Toolshedcub, inasmuch as you haven't bothered to define "lately," I'll take that as anything written in the past six months; in which case, I resemble your remarks. Thanks ever so!

Lastly:

I'm getting pretty fed up with threads on "Just how sick is it to be gay?!" There's only so much hand holding I'm willing to do while people struggle with their internalized (or not-so-internatlized, in some cases) homophobia.

All of which goes to prove:

You can't please all of the people all of the time.

Thanks for doing a thankless job, Flexodus.

xoxo

Richard

[ragmangsm]

Please accept my apologies. I was unaware of the age preference. I will no longer post underage stories here.

[anpuZA]

Like the fleXodus says (with apologies flex... I must have inferred this), it depends on the writer and the way it's written. True, so very true. I also agree with RPM that western civilisation is a bit puritan and purile regarding the whole "adult" age thing, teenagers being a modern invention (concept).

blah blah blah.

Maybe the story section should be subdivided into fixed catagories? Who knows? I sure don't. I just read the damn disclaimers from now on. And by underage stories I assume, those complaining, that you mean under 15 years of age at least? It's nice to have that clarification though, about the issue not being about free speech, but the issue being about it being appropriate to this forum.

I think a point should be made to discover who contributes the most to this site, especially those writing stories. And then decide where we want it to go. What I wouldn't want to have is this site losing a great many writers, who not only do "underage" fantasy stories, but other more "normal" (as if a 1000 pound 3.5 metre muscle man is normal) stories.

Maybe segregation is the only way to go?

*I mean segregating the stories into subsections... sheesh.

[KalaNemi]

Well, I would have to say that some of the stories I have read are a little unsettling. I do see where the mod is coming from, mean he just does not want the wrong kind of attention to this site. I know most people on here are not like that, but it might attract more of those who are thus brining down the site. Personally I am for free speech, but frankly there are just some things that should remain silent. Its for the good of the site.

[arpeejay]

I don't think there's anything to apologize for, Ragmangsm. If anything, your posting clarified something that has been unclear for quite a long time.

xoxo

Richard

[Rarity]

It's only natural you feel that way, TC. I thought this site was about muscle growth, which often involves grown men... To see "children" getting involved in these sexcapades is appalling, to say the least. Which is only a natural reaction, considering pedophilia is illegal and most people see pedophiles as disgusting deviants... But I guess that just goes right back to personal opinion; not fact.

All in all, a line has to be made somewhere. Such as 16 should be the cut off limit if it NEEDS to be that low (since in some states, 16 is a-okay with consent, but 18 = okay regardless). But if a line is drawn for pedophilia, then a line has to be drawn for everything else that's remotely wrong. Such as things pertaining to furries, incest, etc. which would just stomp on so many writers. I suppose no situation can be easy to handle, eh?

[Garfield11]

Unfortunately in this day and age you have to be very careful about what you say and write as I've noticed the most innocient of remarks can be taken the wrong way. I had raised this subject in cyoc only to be ignored but it only takes one person who is into underage sex to save a story from this site or even just viewed a story on this site to label us all pedoes when most of us are just interested in the muscle growth. These sorts of youths on the verge of manhood were an inspiration and theme in the renaisance sculpture by Michaelangleo called "David" but maybe I'm biased as I prefer guys in their early 20's aging to their 30's bursting out their clothes to become middle aged musclebears.

[a_lost_prophet]

I agree, such stories can be treading on thin ice. However I cannot disagree that there are coming-of-age stories and stories with underage characters that do not cross a line of appropriate content. I think there are many talented authors here and many which can write a story without raising concerns.

But when do so we must maintain vigiliance. To sure that such material remains within it's boundries and doesn't cross the aforementioned line.

I think it's up to everyone to keep a sharp eye open, but I personally believe that we shouldn't deter authors from writing stories which include underage character(s), so long as they are written with acceptable content.

This post is not intended to argue the decision made by the moderators of this site. It is simply my two pence on the matter.

[a_lost_prophet]

Although I guess even with vigilance we're still introducing the risk.

[TheMM]

I admit, that is too bad about that FleX. But it IS your forum, and we'll respect your wishes.

That said, I can understand you reasons. The rather large influx of underaged characters growing and such. Now I've never been comfortable about any sexual action with underaged characters, it just doesn't feel right to me. Older teenage characters I can understand more, but someone younger just kinda makes me back off a bit.

It'll also possibly sound hypocritical, but to me the act of a 12 year old growing into a 300 pound muscle kid is still incredible, not in a sexual way...but actually in the fact that probably 99% of all of us here at one time dreamed of having massive muscles and strength when we were that age; so all I see such stories as is merely going back to that time, nothing more, nothing less.

All that aside, FleX has said is to stop posting stories, that don't mean that they're going to stop being written.

[muscle16a]

I think everybody raises good points. I would add my two cents by observing that we're dealing with SciFi/Fantasy here, which changes the dynamic. What I mean is that, for example, when a story relates how a 10 year old boy suddenly grows to 8 feet tall and 750 pounds, he is certainly NO LONGER a 10 year old boy in the conventional sense. It is no longer a story about kiddie sex, but rather is a story about someone who USED TO be a kiddie but is now fully grown and sexually active, despite his chronological years.

I recognize, however, that the subject is a sensitive one. I would compliment Flexodus on not setting a bright-line rule but rather taking stories on a case-by-case basis, as (in my opinion) the nature of the stories on this board require individualized analysis of this issue.

[iceman75]

I do admit that this isn't a bad decision, after all, as the owner/administrator of this site, Flexodus has the rights to include or exclude any elements that he chooses to, and in this case, it is probably better to error on the side of caution. I will abide by your decision, though I will miss some of the stories posted here, not because the characters were underage, but because the writers made the muscle and strength description so great. Like I said in that other thread, I believe that the age is incidental, and if the stories were written the same way with an 18 year old character, I would like it just as much, and I stand by that.

[Ogun]

Uh, yeah... case-by case review. I'd never support a ban.

[Greggrth]

Normally I stay out of these kinds of things, but I may as well share what I think.

I don't like stories with really young kids, but mid teens doesn't bother me that much. I think the main thing that draws me to those kinds of stories is that it's a person who's used to being small and now they're suddenly huge and muscular and a man. I like it when it's just a skinny guy, but when it's younger, it gives this whole new way to look at it. It's new for them, learning about sexual experience and the innocnce of how they see themselves now. This is only in cases where a character grows really huge to the point he could no longer be classed as a child.

So, I'm on the fence to the ban (not that it matters really, I'm gonna follow it, it's a rule) but for me it was never about age, it was about discovering sexual sensations which comes from youth and getting older

[Ogun]

I believe this is not a ban but a strategy- nor do I understand it to be retroactive, but a criteria for filtering incoming stories from this point forward.
The way I understand it, Flex said that such stories are subject to review and deletion, by which I understand new stories will be reviewed and, if found unacceptable, may be deleted -- not that every story containing characters under the age of 16 will immediately be deleted as soon as they appear. What Flex's criteria will be, I don't know, but my guess is that items approaching pedophilia will not pass. Note, by the way, that, at least by my understanding of legal rules, sex between an adult and an "underage" person is considered "engaging in sex with a minor" and is considered a serious crime; however, sex between two minors- e.g. two 14-year-old boys- hits them both with the more minor charge of juvenile delinquency.

Also he said stories, not chats, art, or videos...

[Ogun]

I think that we must continue writing the stories we wish to write and posting them where we wish to post them- we must just be prepared that some of them may be rejected. Flex is kind to allow us to use this space and we'll have to deal with those limits. If he wishes to review new stories and notify the authors of those which he finds unacceptable, asking them to remove them, it's withing his rights as webmaster.. A general ban on tales based on character age, point-blank? Over my dead body! Another idea is to have a restricted sub-forum for certain stories.

[johnd]

I am sorry if my story "Babysitting an Alpha Kid" was responsible for this decision. I see that the story was deleted. If I continue writing with characters under 18, I guess I won't post the stories here.

[rextorres]

Some of those stories will be greatly missed. Time to go somewhere else, or to start a website of my own.

[Aardvark2]

I need some clarification.

I completely understand the need for this rule. I am curious, however, under what realm my own stories fall. I certainly can't recall any of my stories containing sex between two children or between a child and an adult. However, I do occasionally write an age progression story or two that contains mental changes as well (usually the characters are high school age to begin with). A lot of my stories do have children in them, such as the Hunter stories, although rarely do those children undergo changes themselves. I do explore puberty, adolescence, manhood, etc...but I don't believe I ever get graphic enough to warrant a ban. I'm not at all interested in children as sexual beings; I find it gross.

I don't believe this ban applies to me (and I'm pretty sure I know what it DOES apply to), but what I'm saying is that if my stories are included in it, I would like to be informed. I think a "case-by-case" basis is a good idea.

[iceman75]

Originally Posted by johnd

I am sorry if my story "Babysitting an Alpha Kid" was responsible for this decision. I see that the story was deleted. If I continue writing with characters under 18, I guess I won't post the stories here.

Originally Posted by rextorres

Some of those stories will be greatly missed. Time to go somewhere else, or to start a website of my own.

See, this is the problem, you restrict the creativity of people, you lose great talent and writing ability. I believe these guys can write with legal characters of course, but they write stories with teen and pre-teen characters and do it masterfully. While I respect Flexodus' decision, it does eliminate great storylines that could come about because people will not know where the censorship line will be drawn. I hope we can come to some sort of compromise, I agree with those who want a sub-category or a password protected type of section that can only be gone into by those who want to read and post those types of stories. A flat out ban will alienate a lot of people.

[O.o]

I agree and understand completely. I don't really understand the need...

[fleXodus]

Originally Posted by Ogun

A general ban on tales based on character age, point-blank? Over my dead body!

I specifically avoided imposing a hard-and-fast rule on age limits mostly to allow writers the creative license they need, but stories focusing on young characters should remain on the fringe and should not become as commonplace as it has over the past several weeks. The same goes for stories involving furries, snuff, as well as stories which leave out muscle growth altogether. I've been pretty lax about letting authors post whatever they like (even strength stories which don't have any muscle growth elements), but I have a feeling the site is on a slippery slope and the core focus of the site is being diluted.

Originally Posted by Ogun

Another idea is to have a restricted sub-forum for certain stories.

Having a specific forum for Underage or Off-Topic stories will open the flood gates for content that I consider to be inappropriate and irrelevant to this site. The last thing I want is to encourage this particular type of content here.

Thankfully we live in a time where it's easy for anyone to create their own websites and online communities that they can operate in the manner they wish.

[fleXodus]

Originally Posted by muscle16a

I think everybody raises good points. I would add my two cents by observing that we're dealing with SciFi/Fantasy here, which changes the dynamic. What I mean is that, for example, when a story relates how a 10 year old boy suddenly grows to 8 feet tall and 750 pounds, he is certainly NO LONGER a 10 year old boy in the conventional sense.

The problem is with certain authors who tend to be fixated on the characters young ages. One can surmise where the author's interests lay when they keep having to mention the character's extreme young age and their "Young Boy Muscles" repeatedly. It's this particular tone and emphasis that I find troubling.

[fleXodus]

Originally Posted by Aardvark2

I need some clarification.

I completely understand the need for this rule. I am curious, however, under what realm my own stories fall. I certainly can't recall any of my stories containing sex between two children or between a child and an adult. However, I do occasionally write an age progression story or two that contains mental changes as well (usually the characters are high school age to begin with). A lot of my stories do have children in them, such as the Hunter stories, although rarely do those children undergo changes themselves. I do explore puberty, adolescence, manhood, etc...but I don't believe I ever get graphic enough to warrant a ban. I'm not at all interested in children as sexual beings; I find it gross.

I don't believe this ban applies to me (and I'm pretty sure I know what it DOES apply to), but what I'm saying is that if my stories are included in it, I would like to be informed. I think a "case-by-case" basis is a good idea.

Your stories do not fall into the category of inappropriate or irrelevant content. Keep writing, buddy!

[fleXodus]

Originally Posted by Ogun

Also he said stories, not chats, art, or videos...

Ogun. Don't test me! LOL. Obviously if this becomes an issue in the other sections of the site I'm certainly going to be addressing it.

[giantw]

Flexodous can restrict this site in whichever way he chooses. This is a private forum, and this is not a free speech issue.

Johnd, the moderators have never raised an objection about your stories before. The issue is not the existance of stories dealing with underage characters, particularly growing teen ("coming of age") stories, but rather stories dealing with fixations over young boys and their ultra-powerful muscles. The key word is "fixated." The innocence and very young age of the boys in these stories acts as the object of arousal.

Let me pay everyone the compliment of being blunt: this is due to the rash of "nephew" stories, and stories dealing with pre-teen boys. There! I'll point the finger! There has been an explosion of these stories in the last month. It has noticeably changed the direction of this site in a way Flexodous disagrees with. More power to him. I happen to agree with him, not that it matters either way.

[fleXodus]

Originally Posted by iceman75

See, this is the problem, you restrict the creativity of people, you lose great talent and writing ability. I believe these guys can write with legal characters of course, but they write stories with teen and pre-teen characters and do it masterfully.

Honestly, if an author feels so creatively hampered that they can't post a story about 10-year old kids flexing on a website that's primarily comprised of adult erotic stories, then they really should explore alternate venues through which their work can be posted and enjoyed. Thankfully there are millions of other websites out there. This is not one of them.

As imperfect as these new guidelines may be, I feel better taking action on this rather than standing idly by while seeing this site's content waver into territory I can no longer justify sustaining, nor even enjoy on a personal level.

[Xyggurat]

I am become death, destroyer of creativity.

No, but seriously, I think this is a positive change for the boards. For me, it's mostly that I enjoy coming here to scratch a very particular and unusual itch, and there's nowhere else like it. Seeing it shut down or, worse, associating me somehow with people who sexually abuse children is something I'd rather not countenance.

I probably should've been specific in my original post that kids in their upper teens don't set my warning bells ringing, but anything lower than 14 to me is just begging for jail time. I don't care how physically developed a child is at that age, he or she is not mentally developed sufficiently to get into a consensual situation with a full-grown adult, and that makes it a taboo to me. You hear people making logical-sounding arguments against such "close-minded" (but scientifically supported thought) on TV. They are usually indicted pedophiles or people paid to defend them.

I won't go so far as to say that just because you enjoy youth-adult relationships in literature, you will do something illegal or harm a child. That's the same logic that gay-bashers use to suggest that gays are going to rape straight men in the military as soon as Don't Ask, Don't Tell is repealed. However, the urge to do sexual things with children really isn't a healthy natural one.

If you enjoy these stories despite their characters being far under the age of consent, I'm sorry I've contributed to making this world a little darker for you. If you only enjoy them because of their characters' age, I have no apologies, and hope you can get help soon.

-X-

[JP71]

Well I personally don't like stories about muscle-boys and pre-teens growing huge. It's just wrong to envision youngsters like that. Personally as a writer of musclegrowth myself, I am careful to avoid having underage teens in my stories. But if I do have scenes in a highschool I always mention something like the kid being 18, that he had to repeat a year of highschool so that justifies his age nicely. I also try not to have the character referred to as "kid", although in some contexts it's fine, especially if I add that the character is of a sexually mature (and legal) age.

I recently finished reading the excellent "Robby's Imaginary Muscleman" by Londonboy (using this to illustrate my point), which features a five-year-old with a gay dad who fantasises about huge bodybuilders. At first I was going to "click off", but Londonboy's skill as a masterful storyteller had me hooked. The presence of the kid in the story did not, in any way, depict immorality on the parts of the gay adult characters in the story. So I guess what Im trying to say is that some writers can pull this off with expert precision that never once has you thinking that the story or elements therein could be misconstrued, but there are, indeed, writers out there (and Im not just referring to ones on this forum) that seem a little stuck on the pre-legal muscle-teens or kids growing into hugely muscled alpha males (mentally and morally they are still children IMHO). Im simply not comfortable with stories like that. Certainly I believe there is a need not to censor great talent (and there is some AMAZING talent on here) but there is certainly a need to review stories that cross the morality threshold. Just me being honest. And I hope I don't offend or insult anyone.

[lead guitarist]

I've written many boy-muscle stories. I just recently started posting some of them here. I thought that if the boys do not engage in sexual activity (in spite of them having erections), then the stories would be OK here. I never thought that people would want to delete stories not because of the CONTENT of the stories, but rather on the basis of what the moderator thinks the members might be doing while reading the stories. If we THINK guys are jacking off to stories involving underage characters, then it's the fault of the authors of those stories, and their work should not be allowed. Weird. I won't post any more stories here.

[Gene]

I had a well thought out and formed reply but the forum ate it.

Brief recap:

I think too many of the recent stories are way out of line.

People who fantasize about child sex are incurable and should be ferreted out and disposed of wherever they slither into.

Permissivness encourages corruption.

It's time to clean house.

Muscle GROWTH in late teens and men is where this thread should return!

Flexodous, get out your red pen and start slashing. There's no reason to archive damaging evidence.

We don't want to lose this site.

[Rowan]

Originally Posted by ts1976

The thing, as I'm sure you all realize, is that these stories will most likely be used for sexual gratification by many readers. I see that some have a disclamer stating that the characters aren't involved in sexual relations. Fair enough. That certainly doesn't mean that the stories won't and aren't used to get people off, fantasy or not.

I don't agree with this part. I don't read a non-sex story to get sex out of it any more than I watch those old episodes of "The Adventures of Superboy" to get off. I watch because I like and have since I was a kid. And this site isn't *all* about sex. There's sections for advice, inspiration, medical news, etc., so I think it's not inconceivable that not all the stories would be about sex either.

Rule #34 of the internet states that if it exists, there is sex of it. It doesn't matter if it's Harry Potter or My Little Pony or My Pet Rock. It's out there. Somewhere. But as far as this, the creator/creation isn't responsible for what people do with it if it wasn't meant to be sexualized to begin with.

I wrote in another thread that making an exception for my stories would be wrong because it would be the start of a slippery slope, but I think the idea of editing cutting on the basis of what readers *might* do with them is the beginning of one as well.

It's a fine line Flex has to walk. I don't envy him.

[RPM]

Originally Posted by Gene

People who fantasize about child sex are incurable and should be ferreted out and disposed of wherever they slither into.

Seeing as how that's completely wrong, I'm glad you're not legislating anywhere.

Originally Posted by Gene

Permissivness encourages corruption.

That's also been the cry of homophobics as long as I've been alive.

Originally Posted by Gene

Muscle GROWTH in late teens and men is where this thread should return!

....however, I do agree, though mostly because it's the most realistic, and such are my preferences.

[redkage]

So, you're saying that as long as they're in high school, we won't be causing any fuss or alarms about pedophilia? Because I think 14 is a good age to have "young" characters if the need ever arises.

[Slevin]

I think that this issue is easily solvable. Don't mention the age of your characters! It can be an element left up to the reader and they will fill in what makes them comfortable.

This site is predominantly homosexual and encompasses fetishes. Let's remember that all of the characters in these stories do not exist. No one is actually having sex with children nor suggesting it.

The content of many stories tends to involve other "illegal" concepts as well, kidnap, deception, sometimes torture, unsafe sex, nonconsensual sex, etc., but we don't seem to be coming down on them. Our society treats pedophilia as the worst of the worst behaviors, but lets remember fundamentally it is no different than any other fetish.

Now before people start screaming that they aren't like pedophiles remember the key difference is actually carrying out your thoughts. If you bind, torture, rape or have sex with children there are REAL legal, moral and societal repercussions.

[Ogun]

No, what I Said was that if the characters are both minors it's legally not pedophilia AFAIK.
However, in the end the decision on a story's acceptability lies with Flex, as he's the central mod and we have, as far as I know, no "council of elders" to discuss it. I applaud him for not going to a hard-and-fast rule but taking on the burden of sifting the tales. *hands Flexodus an an ostrich feather and a balance scale* Good luck, Flex! And wise judgment!