Something more experimental... (hear me out!)

[ydt81]

I've been interested in the idea of doing something on the more queer side of things...

I was wondering what you all might think of a story with an intersex main character. There are many different ways that intersex could manifest but the idea I was considering would be a guy born with undescended testes and well... a vagina. His parents, being more open-minded and not wanting to force him into anything, do not raise him as a girl. He would grow to have no distinguishing features from a guy (ie no boobs) save for what's between his legs.

I'm interested in this idea for multiple reasons:

--I would like to explore his drive for acceptance as he obbsessively builds up extreme levels of masculinity (I.e., muscle, etc. ) and has interesting encounters.
--**Don't get me wrong--as a gay man, I love cock. But technically it's not a muscle. I think that as a muscular cavity, the vagina has a lot of potential in the world of fantasy. In my view it's anoher opportunity for muscle growth/development
--> There's also what I call the "travel-friendliness" of it all: I like that instead of having to go through the whole process of "he started to get hard, his pants tented up.." you can just say, "his pants were soaked through, he was so incredibly turned on". (i know it'll sound strange at first). It allows for a new variety of situations, without worrying about the reality of people immediately noticing an obvious 12inch bulge along a guys leg. There's always the surprise factor.
--whenever intersex or trans subject are usedin erotica, it generally swing toward the feminine side of things (e.g., futa). I want to even things out a bit. Why should MTFs have all the fun?
--I think that when writers venture into unexpected places it allows for the muscle growth to be abstracted from the typical associations, making he extremeness of the muscle development really come across. I like to see upset power dynamics also

I'm not even sure i'd be able to pull this off--I just wanted to know some people's thoughts on this idea. Interesting? Weird? Let me know. PM if you're too reserved to post but all feedback is welcome.

[Otaru_grower]

I think another guy making him have a vagina would be better, through magic or technology. The guy then has to go gay as well, by changing his DNA in order to get his penis back, but he has to get fucked by x number of guys in his new vagina before that happens.

I don't plan on writing it but if you want it, it's yours.

[Lucas88]

In all honesty, I think there are MORE than enough sites out there objectifying women and the female parts...I come to this site because I like to objectify MUSCLEMEN either from a third OR first person perspective.

As a creative writing exercise, go for it if it interests you.

From an interest perspective on my part, I'll pass.

[Yachirobi]

Weird? Totally. Interesting? Yes... BUT

I know next to nothing about the intersexed but a story like this, while it has extremely hot possibilities, has to be handled with kid gloves. I wouldn't want this to be done as porn, even though I wouldn't mind the sex scenes. This is an idea that has to be treated as literature, with all of the emotions explored and with characters that have lives beyond what's needed to get the audience off. To do it with true intersex playing a part and have it just be fuck-fiction would be very disrespectful to people who suffer greatly due to a society that is only now realizing that people with ambiguous genetalia shouldn't be surgically altered until and if they decide to do so.

If you just want to do hot porn with this then listen to Otaru's suggestion and make it some weird science or magic that makes the man have a pussy. There are still squeamish social issues there but that distances the situation from the more delicate truth of intersexed genitals.

[ljobenza]

Well considering this forum is centered around MALE musclegrowth stories about transvestites or transgenders are not really part of that spectrum.

[ydt81]

Originally Posted by ljobenza

Well considering this forum is centered around MALE musclegrowth stories about transvestites or transgenders are not really part of that spectrum.

Though my approach is controversial I want to be clear that arguably my character is male. He would not be transgender nor a "transvestite"; the closest label that would apply to him would be 'intersex'. There are intersex men and women of many different makeups and genders, but this character would be very much male. Again, I suppose I am "pushing the line" by having a main character who doesn't have the typical genitalia. But I think that since at least one or two partial female muscle growth stories have been posted (e.g.,[COLOR=blue] Jack and the Muscle Goddess[/COLOR]), I wouldn't be overstepping by creating a male character that differs in just one way from his peers.

Originally Posted by Lucas88

In all honesty, I think there are MORE than enough sites out there objectifying women and the female parts...I come to this site because I like to objectify MUSCLEMEN either from a third OR first person perspective.

As a creative writing exercise, go for it if it interests you.

From an interest perspective on my part, I'll pass.

I’m sure you won’t read this, but in response I just wanted to say that it’s really not so simple. Sure, there are spots all over the net devoted to objectifying women and their parts; the same applies for men. But in both cases, the resources are only abundant when it comes to narrow definitions of male/female. As a result, I haven’t yet seen anything even close to what I have in mind for this story. Honestly, if I’d found something, I probably wouldn’t be trying this at all.
But thanks anyway for the feedback; I’m certain you’re not alone on this one .

Originally Posted by Otaru_grower

I think another guy making him have a vagina would be better, through magic or technology. The guy then has to go gay as well, by changing his DNA in order to get his penis back, but he has to get fucked by x number of guys in his new vagina before that happens.

I don't plan on writing it but if you want it, it's yours.

Thanks, but definitely not what I have in mind. I could see the benefits of that approach and it could definitely go over well with the more squeamish crowd. However, I want this to be something different— not with a normal guy getting forced into a weird situation, but with this ‘weird’ character struggling and arriving at something way more awesome than normal. I’m not really even trying to be political either—in all honesty I will bust my ass twice as hard making this a hot story as I will trying to make a point (if any).

[ydt81]

Originally Posted by Yachirobi

Weird? Totally. Interesting? Yes... BUT

I know next to nothing about the intersexed but a story like this, while it has extremely hot possibilities, has to be handled with kid gloves. I wouldn't want this to be done as porn, even though I wouldn't mind the sex scenes. This is an idea that has to be treated as literature, with all of the emotions explored and with characters that have lives beyond what's needed to get the audience off. To do it with true intersex playing a part and have it just be fuck-fiction would be very disrespectful to people who suffer greatly due to a society that is only now realizing that people with ambiguous genetalia shouldn't be surgically altered until and if they decide to do so.

If you just want to do hot porn with this then listen to Otaru's suggestion and make it some weird science or magic that makes the man have a pussy. There are still squeamish social issues there but that distances the situation from the more delicate truth of intersexed genitals.

I respect the delicate nature of the subject. Still, I want to state my purpose outright: I write this story with the intention of creating erotica. I plan to stay true to the deep degree of inner turmoil he will face. In fact, his insecurity will inevitably serve as a plot device. (I apologize for how this next part might come across but) In the musclegrowth stories that I?ve read in the past, some of the most effective stories weave in a good amount of obsession into the character's personality. It might seem like I?ll end up objectifying the struggles of this character?s real world counterparts, but I plan to maintain a pretty solid boundary between fantasy/fiction and after-school special.

I don?t plan to just make plain old ?hot porn?, so I?ll be avoiding Otaru?s suggestion. Still, I don?t think that good, juicy erotica and respectable literature (if I?m capable of writing it) are mutually exclusive. Provided the right amount of solidarity on the author's part, I don't think that ostracized groups only belong in heart-wrenching dramas and high art. In fact, if there is a drop of activism in my writing this story, it is in my genuine intention to open the party up to more sexy men that don?t necessarily look like everyone else.

And anyway, I?ve tried and realized I?m actually quite bad at writing pure without character, so no ?fuck-fiction? worries here.

And give me some credit: I have some measure of grace. The story isn't going to start out, ?Hi my name is Bill and I have a vagina.? I've had time to think about this and I've come up with some ideas on how to subtly touch on the subject. I?m sure I?ve chased away anyone who?s read this thread, but if I can get just one person to keep read long enough for him to experience something new, I?ll be satisfied.

[inm]

It would be interesting to read such fiction, since practically all sex stories with female muscle/domination involve male humiliation and abuse.

[ydt81]

inm, you're quite right; the same is pretty true about a lot of male muscle stories too though. I myself, do like a little roughness in a story but there's a lot of different ways to approach it; I hope I can carve up something unique

And now that you mention it, I must admit that the story will probably go over a little more smoothly with the guys who have dabbled in a little bit of female muscle stories.

Still, the only true prerequisite though will be an open mind.

[Lucas88]

Originally Posted by ydt81

Still, the only true prerequisite though will be an open mind.

I'm confused...you ask for input and then assume we're not open minded if our tastes don't coincide with yours on this topic. Did you really want honest opinions about our personal tastes or did you want an ego stroke?

I'm a fan of your artwork and think you're very talented. What I've seen of that work very much appeals to my taste for the masculine and shows you to be very creative with your "spontaneous sketching" abilities (a very impressive talent). I have nothing against artwork or fiction that revolves around the feminine or shades of the femine and actually think some of it is quite impressive...it's not why I come to this site. Others may agree or disagree but you asked what we thought, not what the people who want to see/read something like this thought.

And...I did read your response below. You assume it's not simple for all of us just because you want to explore what you yourself call "something more experimental". I only speak for myself but I know there are others out there who might agree with me that, we know what trips our trigger and what doesn't...it is that simple.

I think you're creative enough and obviously have enough interest to pull this off if you put your efforts to it. You need to be open minded enough to understand that not everone is going to appreciate that effort for a variety of reasons. Go for it and enjoy!

[ydt81]

Originally Posted by Lucas88

I'm confused...you ask for input and then assume we're not open minded if our tastes don't coincide with yours on this topic. Did you really want honest opinions about our personal tastes or did you want an ego stroke?

I'm a fan of your artwork and think you're very talented. What I've seen of that work very much appeals to my taste for the masculine and shows you to be very creative with your "spontaneous sketching" abilities (a very impressive talent). I have nothing against artwork or fiction that revolves around the feminine or shades of the femine and actually think some of it is quite impressive...it's not why I come to this site. Others may agree or disagree but you asked what we thought, not what the people who want to see/read something like this thought.

And...I did read your response below. You assume it's not simple for all of us just because you want to explore what you yourself call "something more experimental". I only speak for myself but I know there are others out there who might agree with me that, we know what trips our trigger and what doesn't...it is that simple.

I think you're creative enough and obviously have enough interest to pull this off if you put your efforts to it. You need to be open minded enough to understand that not everone is going to appreciate that effort for a variety of reasons. Go for it and enjoy!

Lately, I've noticed a habit of mine, which I shall call "hearing the backhand of a comment". An example of this habit would be when I hear someone complimenting one person in a group and assume that by extension that person has rejected me and everyone else in the group.

Lucas88, the part of my post that you quoted (albeit a little out of context), was sincerely meant as an invitation--not as a jab. I meant what I said exactly: That the only thing I ask people to do if they read the story is to approach it with an open mind. To reference my exact phrasing, in college, not everyone who has the prerequisites for a course ends up taking that course. So, I was not excluding or attempting to insult. I realize that in the context of the post, maybe this came across as condescending or worse--as evidence of my need for an ego stroke.
But again, I meant what I said in the post (no more, no less). For instance, I do predict that readers here who have branched out to reading female muscle stories will be more likely to read through this relatively "experimental" story.

Regarding my reply to your first post, I was primarily responding to your first sentence ("In all honesty, I think there are MORE than enough sites out there objectifying women and the female parts...) and I see that I left some room for misinterpretation. When I said "it's not so simple" I wasn't referring to yours and others preferences but simply to the suggestion that there were plenty of other places to eroticize this specific character.
[I suspect this misinterpretation was likely the main crux of our misunderstanding]

So then, hopefully you understand that I never insinuated that you or anyone else who doesn't like my idea 'just doesn't get it'. I never meant to insinuate that if I did.

To be fair to you, myself, and to hopefully preclude other similar errors by others, I want to stress one key point of my perspective; one that many might disagree with but that I cannot budge on: My character is male. Because of this key fact, though everyone is perfectly entitled to avoid this story for a several reasons, the particular argument that he is "trans" or "not really a man" is not one that I can respond to; it's a point of disagreement at best. Besides the real-world principle of self-identification, I intend to make this character male in all the typical ways (genetically, socially, physiologically, etc.) except for what's between his legs.

I am certainly open-minded enough to understand that not everyone will appreciate my efforts if I decide to write this story. After all, if I had expected unanimous support--or even boredom--I wouldn't have asked for feedback. But when people misunderstand the concept, their opinion is really a judgment of the wrong subject, a judgment of something they made up, you see.
And that's not to say that understanding the concept will make it anymore appealing to them; just that that their understanding--or lack thereof--will play a significant part in my response to their feedback.
.........and I guess that's where the possibility of perceived condescension might creep in.



As I said before, thank you muchly for your feedback, Lucas88. From what you've mentioned, it's funny that we most likely agree on a lot of art tastes. I really hate to have left you with the impression that I didn't respect your opinion and for that, I am sincerely sorry.

[Lucas88]

ydt81,

Apology accepted, appreciated, and returned for any misunderstanding.

One thing that a lot of us forget sometimes, myself included, is that words on a screen or page, unless extremely explicit, can often be interpreted different ways based on mental filters, life experience, chosen beliefs, or just the mood of the day. Reading, we don't get the benefit of hearing tone of voice or inflection and we also don't get the visual cues of eye contact and expression...we're left with flat words that can, fortunately or unfortunately, be taken multiple ways. Just take the political world these days...my ears are BLEEDING from the responses to various speeches given at the two conventions. Over and over, I'll hear the exact same speech and am dumbfounded at what a number of us seem to hear or CHOOSE to hear (again, myself included).

I very strongly believe there are shades of gray in the "are you gay or straight" question when it comes to people in general...I just happen to fall in the very black OR white category when it comes to personal erotica preferences and that's the opinion I wanted to express and is simply my opinion. You obviously intend to take this beyond the simple erotica and I hope you really enjoy taking it there. I, on the other hand, will be looking forward to your next male-EQUIPPED piece of artwork .

[ydt81]

Hehe well, I'm working on another series so I hope the wait shouldn't be too long. Meanwhile, I'm getting back to an abandoned story--let's see if my keyboard likes me as much as my pencils do