Thinking About Steroids

[RyBearATL]

Corwin:

Right now I'm fighting with myself about how much I want to get bigger, and how far I will go? I can easily do the whole diet thing. Becoming a gymrat is harder -- lots of being teased as a kid and feelings of inadequacy in sports and strength to overcome, but I could probably get over that. What about steroids or other chemicals to overcome genetic limitations? Am I willing to go that far? (thus the internal argument I am waging)

I'm doing the same thing right now. In the last year I've changed my diet, hit the gym hard (1.5H, weights, cardio, 5-6x/wk, and have probably swapped about 10# of fat for muscle (on me a big difference). At the same time I look around the gym and feel like I'm barely closer to what I want to be.

Both me and a few friends feel the same way. We're thinking about using, as it seems about 50-80% of this (very gay) gym are juiced. I can't believe I'd give into peer pressure like this, but still....

My own feelings on it right now are to leave it alone for another year, see how things go, and then make a decision.

Help?

-R

[wrestlejock646]

As an exercise physiologist, personal trainer and strength coach, I'll offer my own two cents on this issue.

Do your research before you make your decision. Realize there are lots of different steroids that carry different risks to the user before you decide. Keep in mind that the benefits to using steroids, as well as their adverse affects have been hyped by the media. That is to say, they work, but you still have to put in the effort to get the benefits. In fact, to get the most out of them you have to pay even more attention to your diet, training and lifestyle. One important point--alcohol and steroids don't mix well, something that a lot of guys forget when they're doing a cycle.

If you really are committed to this course of action, do yourself a favor and insist on getting bloodwork done by a doctor so you can monitor any liver enzymes going out of normal range.

If you are swapping 10 lbs of fat for 10lbs of muscle naturally in one year, I'd say to hold off on any decision to add anabolic steroids to your program, depending on how long you've been training, which you didn't mention. Dropping 10 lbs of fat while adding 10 lbs of muscle is really impressive and something to be proud of. Keep up the good work with your training, regardless of which way you decide to go with the anabolics.

And, not just for selfish reasons, you might try spending the money you'd otherwise use for a cycle on a good trainer who can help you maximize your progress by refining your routine and diet.


Good luck bro

[RyBearATL]

Thanks for the advice - I should get with a trainer, I think. Would you be willing to look over my workout? I can send it offline.

Otherwise:
I've been training about 15 years on-and-off, badly.

I've been training seriously with diet control (intense, watch diet, take in 150+/- grams protien/day) for about a year. Having a gym open 2 blocks from my home helps a lot.... <G>

Pics of me are at my site:
http://www.publicself.com/Pages/Photo_Ego.htm . Not the most recent, but IDK if there's much change since then.

-R

[RyBearATL]

Not sure if I can put this here, but are there clients you reccomend steroid use to? If so, how/when do you make that decision?

-R

[Corwin]

Do your research before you make your decision. Realize there are lots of different steroids that carry different risks to the user before you decide. Keep in mind that the benefits to using steroids, as well as their adverse affects have been hyped by the media. That is to say, they work, but you still have to put in the effort to get the benefits. In fact, to get the most out of them you have to pay even more attention to your diet, training and lifestyle. One important point--alcohol and steroids don't mix well, something that a lot of guys forget when they're doing a cycle.

and

And, not just for selfish reasons, you might try spending the money you'd otherwise use for a cycle on a good trainer who can help you maximize your progress by refining your routine and diet.

Good advice. It certainly makes sense to do everything you can first, and to do your research before taking any drugs.

The issue for me is the conflict between what I want and where nature wants me. I want to be huge, or at least bigger, but it is a struggle. And when the gains are coming slowly, my patience wears thin.

::sigh

[wrestlejock646]

Hey guys, I'd be happy to take a look at anybody's workout program and offer whatever advice I can.

First of all, no I don't ever recommend steroids to any clients. I don't believe there's a place for steroid use in amatuer athletics and I do believe in ensuring a level playing field in sports. I feel that, ethically, the most I should ever do is simply provide the facts that I learned about steroids while studying in college and graduate school. I'm not a doctor so I'm not about to offer steroids as my "prescription" for my clients. I do, however, think that the medical community lost a lot of credibility for denying steroids had ANY benefit to individuals wanting to develp muscular strength and/or size for years when the truth was obvious to any athlete, coach or close observer of sport. There's an upside (muscular size and strength) as well as a downside (various side effects, both temporary and permanent) to anabolic steroid use. IMO, the downside is most closely associated with their abuse rather than simply their use. I've heard scary stories about muscleheads who go on prolonged cycles for years because they can't deal with the idea they'll shrink down when they come off. Based on current knowledge, that's a recipe for liver damage, not to mention sexual and psychological dysfunction and probably more. I think steroid abuse is most likely to occur when an individual decides to use without having the information to make an educated decision on how to use.

Personally, I think that as long as you are moving in the direction of achieving your goal or goals in the gym, without resorting to steroid use, you should continue naturally. If you've basically perfected your eating habits and diet, are getting enough rest, train consistently using periodization techniques and yet you've hit an insurmountable plateau, then maybe it's time to consider "help." It's been my personal experience that most people don't put everything together at the same time for an extended period.

Looking like a bodybuilder doesn't happen in six weeks or six months, no matter what we'd like to believe. It takes years of dedication and hard work to look like the guys on the pages of muscle mags, as well as luck (in the form of good genetics) regardless of whether you are natural or not. But, everybody can make themselves stronger, bigger and fitter in a fairly short period of time if they just stick with it.

[RyBearATL]

wrestlejock646:

Looking like a bodybuilder doesn't happen in six weeks or six months, no matter what we'd like to believe. It takes years of dedication and hard work to look like the guys on the pages of muscle mags, as well as luck (in the form of good genetics) regardless of whether you are natural or not. But, everybody can make themselves stronger, bigger and fitter in a fairly short period of time if they just stick with it.

I guess sometimes you just have to hear it from the outside. I'll spend some time feeling grateful I've got a good frame, decent training habits, and am working on it, rather than being upset that in 12 months I haven't gotten to be Mr. Olympia! PS, will send you my workout offline sometime. Thank you!

Corwin:

The issue for me is the conflict between what I want and where nature wants me. I want to be huge, or at least bigger, but it is a struggle. And when the gains are coming slowly, my patience wears thin.

That's pretty much on the money for me. And I have what I think of as the usual BB thing where I can look in the mirror one day and say "Woah! Who's the hunk?" and the next day look and say "Crap! Where'd he go?" Drives me nuts. (Okay, more nuts.<G>)

[latinherc]

This is one of the most elegant discussion about steroid use i have read. I hope to keep it at the same level.
A couple of years ago i decided to begin weight training seriously. I dropped my body fat to 10% increase 22 lbs of mass during the first year and half.
Then i discovered that my friend and "natural" bodybuilding hero once was a serious roider. Then i think, why are people hiding this from other people. Why not pass all the knowledge.
So i begin friendship with a national competitive bb and my way on roids. I have finished my second cycle. Im up 55 lbs from 210lbs. i like the way people look at me know, kind of fear in their eyes, believed or not its working and i will keep it until i reach my goal of competing next May. Sure im 6' 5" tall, and never in my life will be bulked to my present stage naturally....
So do you want to use , all i can say is do it. Do it wisely, share it with your training partner, trainers etc..so you can have as many ideas and focus as you need to form your owns.

[wrestlejock646]

Quote

"I have what I think of as the usual BB thing where I can look in the mirror one day and say "Woah! Who's the hunk?" and the next day look and say "Crap! Where'd he go?" Drives me nuts. (Okay, more nuts.<G> )"

If it's any comfort, I have that same thing go on in my head too, especially if I miss a workout or two.

[RyBearATL]

Before I get started, thanks to everyone for their input and thoughts on this topic. It's really, really good for me to have an open discussion about this with all of you.

So, given what we've been talking about, I stopped a few >very impressive< guys I know at the gym and asked them about their lifting history. When they started, why, changes, learning, and if they seemed open or volunteered about it, their steroid use.

One was very open about using, no problems, and told me what to look for in others so I could them (I knew about acne, and a few other symptoms, but not some subtle things). He'd been working out a long time. (Unspecified, but Id guess about 15 years.)

Another was very open about the hard work, but says he'd never used. Just lifed consistently and long and VERY intensely for about 10 years seriously (several more years not-so-seriously) before that. I've watched him lift, and he really does hit it harder than most people I see in the gym, and has an incredible body to go with it.

Third, is a 51 year old man who I genuinely would have said was maybe 42, who has the body of a 35 year old muscle-ciruit boy. He's only using a gel for testosterone replacement (bringing into the normal range, not above). (Personally, I've always thought this is a good idea unless we find that HRT is contraindicated for men as much as women.)

So the point, I guess, is that it seems to be about the state the person achieves.

The first person just loved that look/feel/presence they had being Very Big. The second seems to be getting/keeping the results they want, so isn't interested. I'd have to wonder if they wouldn't use at another point, if they had a reason (had to cut workout time in half, for example), or hits an age-related decline.

The third fits more in the category someone wrote about on another thread; the difference between use and abuse. I'm still thinking about this too. Let me throw y'all an idea to turn over: What would "Wise Use" of steroids look like? (Which may include no use; it may not be possible.) My apologies for stealing such a colorful Republican phrase.

Latinherc:

i like the way people look at me know, kind of fear in their eyes, believed or not its working and i will keep it until i reach my goal of competing next May. Sure im 6' 5" tall, and never in my life will be bulked to my present stage naturally....

Uh, you seem to have pretty much what most people on this board would wish for. Glad you're enjoying it! (Just found your profile on bigmuscle, assuming that's you.) How do you find steroid use in Venezuela? Are they an over-the-counter drug there like in Brazi?

-R

[wrestlejock646]

OK, here's the basics for what I'd term educated usage....

Read everything you can on the subjects. There are some good message boards such as this one, but which only deal with steroid information. One of the better ones I've seen is found in the forums section of the Muscle Service Station, at muscleservice.com. There has been a free wheeling series of threads. The website is free, but password protected, so please follow the guidelines posted.

Also, there are several books out there, with good information on every aspect of use, non-use, abuse, profiles, cycles, nutrition, coming off, etc. I'd recommending educating yourself as well as you possibly can before you jump into the pool, so to speak. Two books I read this summer on the subject were Steroids 101, by Jeff Summers and Chemical Muscle Enhancement by Arthur L. Rea.
Both should be available through internet orders or possibly in a bodybuilding supplements store in your area.

I'd also say that if you're going to use, get a basic blood profile with liver panel so that you have baseline levels if liver enzymes to compare with mid- and/or post-cycle. Find a doc who will be willing to do these tests for you so that you CAN have the information about your own body's response to something you're going to put in it.

That's the basic way to use....learning the most you can about any subject and making your decisions on the information you learn....coordinating your efforts with a medical professional who can monitor the situation and provide warning signals from blood tests, etc. and finally, knowing enough to stop when something is no longer working, or sends a red flag. Planning, planning, planning...Plan out the cycle...the duration and weekly or daily milligrams, the post-cycle supplements, the diet you'll be following to make the most progress. You also have to understand that doing it correctly costs $$$. If you're going to do this on the cheap, you'd be better off not doing it at all, in my opinion. If you can't do it safely (with doctor monitoring bloodwork before and after) can't find all the supplements you need before you start, can't afford the food you'll need to eat every day in the quantities you'll need, etc., you shouldn't start using. Why do the potentially harmful stuff if you can't maximize the benefits to cost ratio?

Abuse, in my opinion is using while knowingly or unknowingly not following those rules, continuing the cycle beyond its intended length, not getting medically monitored, drinking while using, not stopping if something goes wrong--injury, illness, blood work changes, etc.

Also, keep in mind that you're about to commit a felony (along with every other juicer in your gym) and that is one reason people are hesitant about sharing information about whether they are using or not. Possessing or using steroids has been a Schedule III felony since 1986, fair or not. Not fair in my opinion, but....you have to make the decision whether to cross that line or not.

[wrestlejock646]

When I wrote that "every juicer" in any gym was breaking the law and committing a felony, I was not trying to condemn anybody. Furthermore, I failed to mention that there are medical reasons for doctors to prescribe anabolics to patients, among them, muscle wasting or severe weight loss from HIV or other illnesses as well as low testosterone levels in the blood. I was not trying to imply any opinion of whether steroid use is ethical or not. I should have been more precise in my statement, as it was simply intended to make you aware of the fact that there are legal implications for obtaining anabolic steroids. Probably, many of the individuals who are using such drugs won't be very willing to admit their use, especially to someone they don't know well and who walks up out of the blue to ask them if they're using. Given the legal considerations, it's kind of understandable that most people who've done a cycle or who are currently doing one are going to deny that fact.

What I have been trying to do in this post is to give some objective information, both pro and con that you ought to factor in to any decision on the subject. I hope some of what I've posted has helped out and not just opened up a can of worms for anybody.

[RyBearATL]

Gymjock: Funny, I checked this forum in the AM and was thinking about your last line or two during the day.

What I have been trying to do in this post is to give some objective information, both pro and con that you ought to factor in to any decision on the subject. I hope some of what I've posted has helped out and not just opened up a can of worms for anybody.

Yeah, the other line sounded a bit trite, but let's all try to presume the best light for other people in the conversation, not the worst. Email/online is a very "flat" communications mode.

As I've said, the discussing of this for me has been helpful, both here and in the gym. Most of the guys I've talked to there are people I've at least seen regularly for a year or so, or known before we were at the same gym, so that's a separate issue. I've also definitely decided to put off at least one year. If I do decide to do anything, I'd do it with a doctor's supervision and appropriate tests.

Two more notes, and I'm off to bed!
1. Contrary to some of what you said, Iv'e found people being amazingly open, almost wearing a t-shirt that says "Ask me about my steroid injections!". This was in Florida. I was visiting a bunch of guys, none of whom had met me in person (a couple of emails ahead online) and they were obviously using, and when I tentatively asked about this they just opened up completely. I was a bit surprised, but figured it's my (usual) naivete.

2. Last night at the gym I saw a guy I've noticed there for a while. I'd always figured he was using, but not sure. Well, I haven't seen him in several weeks and he still would turn my head in a heartbeat, but he was about 15-20# lighter than the last time I saw him. I'm not looking to pay rent on muscles <G>. I think I had overlooked the fact that most of the gains go away after a while.....

I think that the HIV/steroid use connection has really changed how the gay community views the use of anabolics. Yes, they're completely legit and necessary for people with HIV wasting symptoms. I think like many things, doctors were viewing any bad side effects from anabolics as fairly minor compared to the advantages of having something to cannibalize if you were in trouble. Not really the case for everyone else; it changes the use equation.

-R

[Corwin]

When I wrote that "every juicer" in any gym was breaking the law and committing a felony, I was not trying to condemn anybody.

They are committing a felony. Unfortunately, this country's drug laws don't make much sense. Prohibition doesn't work, and it tends to make any information that the government puts out suspect to disbelief.

Given the legal considerations, it's kind of understandable that most people who've done a cycle or who are currently doing one are going to deny that fact.

Actually, the law is very strange here. You cannot be punished for having the status of a drug user, tho you can be punished for having drugs in your system. You can freely say, "I have done a cycle of steroids.*" You can be punished for possessing drugs or if you are caught using them. LGBT people might recognize this as the Bower v Hardwick rationale -- you can't punish status but you can punish behavior.

(* though saying this might make it more likely you are tested for drugs or searched for drugs)

It's also not illegal to talk about steroids. You can give advice, write about the pros and cons, even talk about what makes a good cycle. Just so long as you don't sell drugs or possess them, you're within the law.

OK, I'm not a lawyer, but I hang out with lots of lawyers and read supreme court decisions just for fun. ::shudder