Help me understand supplements!

[OUstud82]

Let me preface by apologizing for my long windedness. I implore anyone with sufficient knowledge to please read and help. Thanks in advance!

I am a 21-year-old college studend on a limited budget who has been lifting consistently for 9 months now. My body fat has dropped to 12.2%, down from 14.6% as of my last posting two months ago (and down from about 20% in October).

As encouraged and excited as I am (I can finally see some of my abs for the first time in my LIFE), I am concerned because I have reached a weight-gain plateau.

A (Very ripped) friend of mine told me yesterday to try a prohormone called androstat-150 made by pinnacle. I researched prohormones on bodybuilding.com, as I never heard of them before, but found that they can have some pretty scary side effects, including premature baldness and bitch-tits.

I went to a popular supplement store in town (college towns are littered with them) and the owner told me that I would be better off taking whey protein first, seeing as taking protein is the way to maximize the effects of prohormones like androstat.

I took the safer route and followed his advice and will begin mixing protein shakes in the morning, which I am excited about.

At 5' 7", I currently weigh just under 150. I'd like to gain 15 pounds in 4 months (something i did EASILY when i first began lifting and haven't been able to do since). Is this realistic with protein? or are additional supplements neccesary? If so, what are the best and most effective types around?

I know that there are a million out there: Creatine, NO2, Prohormones, Anti-Estrogens, and a laundry list of about 15 different genres, but the list gets confusing after a while.

Also, What are the best supplements out there, and are any of them more effective for muscle growth than whey protein? are prohormones among them, despite their potential side effects?

Perhaps I need a quick crash course in the subject that Bodybuilding.com was not able to provide in a succinct manner.

Thanks all

No such thing as a crash course in supplements.

You've covered several of the issues with them. Some good, some bad. Some dangerous, some inneffective. Some expensive, some not. Some legal, some not.

Yes, it's confusing, and you can't keep up with the changes in formulations, names, and availability. (The manufacurers like it that way, keeps the customers in the dark so they can make a killing on crap.)

You seem to have done a LOT more homework than most people. Keep it up. Be sure to consider the motivations of the source of the information!!

Three or four years ago I was really up on the "andro/nor-andro" formulations but I haven't kept up with them. Not even sure they're still available.

My book research indicated that the "nor-andro" type precursors seemed to be more effective (growth) and less dangerous (bitch-tits) than the "andro" precursors. Also, the precursor products are self limiting. They can only convert products already in your system into real steroids, when you run out of the base compounds in your system you're wasting your money and increasing your risk by taking more and more of the precursors.

The precursors are also a problem for people with or susceptible to enlarged prostates. As I got older I had to give them up precisely for that reason. I could tell they were affecting me that way. Bummer!

Yes, my own body research indicated the precursors do work, but they don't do miracles. Nothing (as of three years ago) could replace real steroids.

Real steroids have all those nasty legal problems in additition to all the really nasty medical problems. Not to say that they shouldn't be considered because they DO work and the risks CAN be reduced, but it's a serious step and deserves MUCH, MUCH, MUCH study and preparation.

As for the exact benefits of any single or combination of the legal supplements. Who knows? It's an individual thing with zillions of variables.

Wise diet, exercise and rest are the best long term program. I know that isn't what you want to hear but it's true.

Now, if you really want to use supplements. Do the legal ones first. Moderate doses(no more than a few typical tabs or capsules) of the nor-andro type supplements per day along with a well thought out, and followed, diet to keep your internal nutrients at proper levels. Treat them like steroids and increase dosage over a couple of weeks, level for a week or two and then decrease dosage over a couple of weeks, then abstinence for at least a month. Do this in cycles. Keep up your diet, exercise & REST.

The trick to growing is to keep growing. Learn how to monitor your protein intake and outgo. If you're losing protein you're losing muscle. Balance that with your body fat levels. It's a learning process. Takes a long time to learn how your body responds.

Don't expect to gain 4 pounds of muscle a month anymore! That type of gain is typical at the beginning, you're just getting in good shape. Getting beyond good shape is fighting against your body's androgenic governor. Be happy with 1 or 2 pounds of REAL muscle gain per month and any more would be a bonus.

Don't expect the "nor-andro" supplements to do the job for you. They WILL help but only for a limited time and only a little bit. Hugeness is the domain of real steroids and I know several who've been there and said it ain't all it promised to be. Hell, I did them myself for a couple of cycles back in the 70's when I could get them legally from a doctor. It was expensive and I did blow up big but I couldn't maintain it. I never got that big again but I did get into great looking shape using natural methods with good diet & gym habits and a little help from "nor-andro', supplements and creatine.

If there are really newer/better products than the nor-andro's somebody please educate us.

-- LeatherGryphon --

[buffdoc]

Good job for lifting consistently...that is the key to continued gains. You have the easy gains that most beginners get when starting weight training but are stuck at 150 pounds. You want 15 more pounds in four months. That is ambitious but not impossible if you accept a little bit of fat gain along with it. The biggest mistake I made when starting lifting was underestimating the importance of nutrition in making gains. To get bigger you must consume more calories than you expend. You can't make something out of nothing.

I would recommend the following:
1) You definitively should use Whey protein. In my opinion, this is really the only supplement you need. You want to be a 175 pounds, therefore you
need to consume 175 grams of protein per day. In general, 1 g protein/per pound of desired body weight. I would be generous and go with 200 g QD.
Whey protein is cheap. Order online. A 10 pound bag will last you 2 months and goes for about $45.
2) Calculate the calories you need to gain. You will need more food but if you want to bulk you must accept some fat gain with it. It is practically impossible to "bulk up" and "get ripped" at the same time. You are only 5"7' which is cool because you may find that you don't need an additional fifteen pounds to look big. 10 pounds really may do it for for you depending on your goals. I would aim for 2900 calories a day. You are taking in 200 grams of protein X 4 cal/g = 800 cals. That leaves 2100 calories. Make 30% from fat: 630 cals of fat/9 = 70 g of fat and the rest is carbs (1470/4 = 360 grams). Give this 4 weeks, no gains, then increase by 100 calories a week until you gain.
3) Plan out your meals. You are in college which is a training dream land. You are on the campus meal plan and can eat virtually all day and bring protein shakes to class. Try to eat six times a day:
a) breakfast
b) pre-lunch snack
c) lunch
d) pre-dinner/lifting snack
LIFTING
e) post-lift meal
f) nightime meal

Use these nutrition numbers to construct meals. Carbs should be long-acting like oatmeal, brown rice. Fats should be from flaxseed oil or light olive oil. Protein from chicken, fish, tuna, and sparingly from beef. Examples: breakfast: 1 cup of oatmeal + 2 scoops of Whey protein = 45 g carbs & 46 grams of protein. snack: 2 scoops of Whey + 1 tsp spoon olive oil = 46 grams protein + 10 grams of fat. Do the math for remaing meals. Things don't need to be exact but try to have a good general idea. Last key nutrition tip is what you consume post-workup. On days that you lift, you want an insulin spike so make the post-workout meal consist of protein (to build up your muscle) and SHORT acting carbs (to spike insulin and drive the protein into muscles). Avoid fat here. I usually use Whey protein and put roughly 50% of my total carb allowance as short-acting carbs. Gatorade+whey protein is fine but you also you can mix whey protein with either table sugar or even better use dextrose. You can buy this online for about $5 bucks for 5 pound bag. It is super cheap. On days you don't lift make sure this meal consists of long-acting carbs or you will get fat quick.

4) Don't overtrain. You are not using steroids. Therefore, you need to maximize recovery time. Overtraining is how very motivated people fail in the gym. Trust me, it happened to me. I was so super diligent that I never gave myself adequate time to recover that I got stuck for a while. I would lift no more than 3-4 times a week. Work each major muscle group roughly once-twice a week. Drop isolation exercises, go with compound movement. Throw in LOW intensity cardio on days you don't lift to minimize overall fat gain.

Wow that was a really long stream of conscious like response; I hope you find it helpful. Based on where you started, I bet you are an ectomorph--thin, thin, thin at baseline. Weight training with ectomorphic body types really needs a good commitment to nutrition to get good gains. You may never get super huge (even with steroids) but you likely never will get really fat which alot of hardcore lifters sufffer with. You will also find that when you want to "rip up" you will do so quite easily. Implement these key points with good training and you won't need to worry about prohormones (which are mostly bunk) and you will be primed if you ever decide to juice.

Good luck.

[OUstud82]

Thanks for the info. A couple of notes though:

I was actually the fat kid in junior high so I'd hardly call myself an ectomorph. Also I'm NOT on the campus meal plan because I live off campus and food is NOT readily available to me for cheap.

I'm also not really sure of the difference between "good" carbs and "bad" carbs, or "short-acting and "long-acting" carbs. Could you explain this and why I want to choose one versus the other at different times? Keep in mind that my diet is already excellent compared to the average American: I don't eat any fried food, carbonated drinks, or potatoes at all. I eat red meat one or two times a week at most. The rest of the time I eat fish and chicken.

And how much fat are you expecting me to gain with 15 pounds of muscle? Because I hardly consider 15 pounds of muscle and 15 pounds of fat to be much of a success. Given this, how much weight can I expect to gain in 4 months with a maximum of 1-3 pounds of fat gain? Gaining fat is not something I'm used to, seeing as my body fat has dropped from 20.5% to 12% in the last 6 months while my actual weight has remained relatively steady.

Besides all that, the owner of the local supplement shop (also a VERY ripped guy) said that beginning to use whey protein (which I have begun to do) should cause me to LOSE some fat and gain muscle, and that while I might not see an immediate difference on the scale, I should see it in the mirror in a month. What do you think of this?

[buffdoc]

Those are good questions. I guess I misunderstood your original post in which you stated you wanted a 15 lb gain. If you have a tendency to be fat (so called endomorphic build), it is highly likely that in attempting to gain additional lean muscle mass you will acculumate fat to a greater degree than someone who is ectomorphic or mesomorphic at baseline. The reason you cannot gain now is that you are probably in a small caloric deficit relative to what you need to gain. You could also be in a relative protein deficit. Keep with Whey shakes and keep everything else the same for a couple of weeks. Then reassess, you may get a couple of good pounds out of it along with some additional fat loss as you add more lean weight--i think that is what the saleperson was referring to. Don't worry about the carbs for now until you seriously decide to bulk.

Just remember, as a general principle it is much easier to loose a pound of fat than to gain a pound of muscle physiologically. That is why when attempting to bulk up some fat follows because you must be in caloric excess; but with greater muscle mass, it is subsequently easier to loss this fat when the calories are restricted thus producing a "ripped" or "cut" physique.

Overall, you seem happy with the large amount of fat you have lost. I reviewed some of the progress pics you have posted and you made a great change. I think if you attempt to seriously bulk now you will just be disappointed. You seem to notice everyone who is "ripped" so why not go for that? Keep your protein high as outlined above, emphasize cadio, and lift moderately. With your now higher lean body mass, you will burn calories more efficiently so losing weight should be even easier. Just keep your weight loss gradual (1-1.5 lbs/wk) or you risk catabolizing your lean muscle mass relative to excess fat stores.

Good luck!