Is it wrong?

[PlugNPlay76]

Hey guys,

I have a friend that I was talking to not too long ago, and he had a few rather interesting questions that I didn't how to answer at the time exactly. His name is Eric and he shares the same "obssession" with huge muscles as I do. In fact, we even share the same fantasy about haveing a muscle guy that just keeps "bulking up" huge and doesn't stop.

However, something surprised me about him. He has a boyfriend that he's been with for a year that is a really BIG (ok, big is an understatement, I mean HUGE 6'3"- almost 400lbs.) bearish type of guy that's a bit on the chubby side and is bald, but in his early 30's. Eric is 28.

Anyway, my friend says that he loves his man and that he is the sweetest and greatest guy he could ever be with, however, he also says that he still has this obsession with huge muscle men. In fact he says, it may even be stronger now. He says he even jacks off to pictures and videos of muscle guys when his b/f is not around, and looks at other muscle guys when his b/f isn't looking, however, he still gets hard around his b/f and they still make love to eachother. Eric thought that he'd be rid of this obsession once he found the man he loves.

Eric asked me "Is it wrong to still have this obssession even though I'm with the man I love, and maybe even plan to marry? Is it wrong to still want a huge and massive muscle man, or fantasize about having one to love?" I didn't know how to answer him, I just told him that I'll have to get back to him on that .

Secondly, he says his b/f does seem willing to become more of a muscle bear for him. Eric also said that he'd like to see his b/f with hair, but we found out that that is a simpiler problem being that the reason his b/f is bald is due to clogged hair folicles. I wonder, is it wrong for his b/f to want to change for him?

I mean, I have met his b/f and he is cute, in fact, I think pretty hot the way he already is, and he would make a very hot and huge muscle bear, but I still wonder whether it's wrong or not for my friend to try to push his b/f in this direction.

Anyway, any help from you guys would be greatly appreciated. Let me know,

Thank you,
Plug.

[claygrant]

I think most of us would agree that if Eric's bf is willing to become more muscular, then Eric is one lucky man! I'm assuming that Eric's bf wouldn't mind, of course. That's probably one of the hottest things (for me at least) - that someone is pushing hard in the gym to get bigger just for me.

[arpeejay]

I think most pepole don't wind up having relationships with their sexual fantasy figures. Ultimately being with someone is more about compatability on the inside than whether the sex is superb or the other guy is the ultimate fantasy figure on the outside. (It's also the case that great looks and great sex don't necessarily go hand in hand.)

Your friend's indulgence of his sexual fantasies are problematic only to the extent that they get in the way of appreciating his bf for who and what he is. If that interference isn't happening, there's nothing to worry about. (Well, aside from the usual...)

rpj

feeling philosophical this evening

[glammaman2000]

hopefully,we've all adjusted to the fact that we're men who like men.so if you like'em fat,tall,skinny,big,hairy,no hair,black,white,pecs,arms,butts,dick,fem,butch,to p,bottom,etc.,it shouldn't be anything you need to apologise about.i personally need muscle.for me,a man with no muscle is a girl.as long as you are not the kind of person who will not SPEAK to someone you are not sexually interested in&you treat everyone wth respect;i say go for it.

[Notbigenuff]

I'll chime in too, though I'm not fortunate enough to have such problems.

I don't think its wrong to have these desires, per se, and if the bf is willing to take a go at it for him that's all the better. In my personal observations very few people end up with someone who hits 100% of all the desires. And let's face it, in terms of long term success in a relationship overall physique and/or appearance is way down on the list (or should be at least--in my opinion).

[brent]

I don't think Eric should feel bad at all. He has a man he loves, and some unrealistic fantasies. We can't control what we fantasize about - that we inherited - we can control our actions. Eric must remain faithful to his fianc?, but he shouldn't feel guilt about looking... I assume Eric is human too!

If Eric's fianc?, is willing to firm up for him, he should take advantage of it. I'm sure this guy secretly wants. Then work towards that goal. Plus, if this guy is extremely fat, Eric might be doing him a favor getting him in the gym for the sake of his health.

[RyBearATL]

I've always said I wanted three things in a guy:
1. Someone who is educated & articulate, likes to talk about ideas.
2. Someone who can communicate about feelings.
3. Someone who is built like a brick shithouse.

(And people wonder why I'm single? More on my site about that if you really want to know.)

In other words, I want things that don't cluster together frequently. Most qualities that let someone really, really, truly succeed at bodybuilding are in fact very unhealthy for relationships. I've always known that the OUTSIDE of a guy gets my attention but the INSIDE of him keeps it.

So, I've learned to be happy about particular parts of a BF's body. It may be that one part that turns me on when we're sexual, but y'know, that's okay.

I'll admit to one thing on this: I was in a relationship with a man who I loved very much for the inside, but after about 3 months the outside just didn't do anything for me any more. That was really wearying on me, and I'm not going to do it again. At this point in my life, if someone doesn't take care of himself - and he doesn't have to be huge, just in shape - and/or he doesn't have "the fitness habit", I'm probably not going to date him. Period. It's not that I want to be shallow, I just don't want to set up that situation again because I know that I will simply become dissatisfied with the relationship and it will end. We all get heavy or lighter, but I want someone who keeps some attention on it, because it matters to me.

As far as the situation here: nothing wrong with it. Just make sure it doesn't become The Cornerstone Of The Relationship. Love each other for things beyond the gym & fitness. Presumably you already do, so that's not a problem. Just don't go farther down that road because you expect this person to become Mr. Hot Stud. Exercise is enough of a thing to do that not everyone takes to it; either of you may back off from it sometime for any number of reasons. Don't feel "cheated" or that the other "broke a promise to you" because of it. Enjoy the success you may have from it and then let it go.

(Okay, I guess that was more 2 dollars than 2 cents, but I'm a long winded bastard. C'est la vie.)

Another topic: looking at other guys. (Another 2 dollars....)

I recently started seeing someone. I have a policy about looking at men, and he's good with it. "I'm male. I'm going to look. My eyes may stray, my dick may get hard, and if you ask I'm going to tell you that the guy is fucking hot. However, that doesn't mean my heart has left you or that I'm going to go do something with him. My word and my honor are more important than that."

If someone is that insecure, he's not right for me, and I might as well know NOW because this sure isn't going to change about me. Make your own choice about that for you. PS: Atlanta is full of great eye candy, and I live in the middle of midtown (aka The Castro "Lite"). One had better learn to live with it.

(RPJ: Can I get college credit for this dissertation?)

Thanks y'all,
-R

[Bull]

No one person is ever going to meet all of one's needs; it's impossible. Part of being in a relationship is accepting that. For some guys, that means having an "open" relationship; and if that works for them, fine. It doesn't for me. Love is complicated enough without inviting trouble in.

Even if I were lovers with the Ultimate Man, I would still fantasize about others, mainly because I like more than one "type." So what? When we lose the ability to fantasize, we lose our humanity; and no one has control over their desires. And fantasy provides an outlet for desires it would be foolish to act upon.

What matters is, does he love this guy enough to accept that he won't be the embodiment of his physical desires? At 400 lbs, this guy has to be more than just "pudgy," unless he is Greg Kovacs in the off-season. Clearly he hasn't made exercise a priority in the past, and I doubt he will in the future. It is very foolish to expect people to change for you. While it may be true that anyone can change, almost no one ever does.

[arpeejay]

Originally Posted by RyBearATL

(RPJ: Can I get college credit for this dissertation?)

Oh, you could get a LOT of things from me, Ry, but college credit isn't one of them.

rpj

hoping that's sufficiently flirtful

Saying one is going to change, being willing to change and actually changing are different universes. I've learned not to expect people to change much from what they are. Yeah, it happens, but rarely. If it does fine. If it doesn't one should be prepared for it. Change can be encouraged but should not be expected.

[Mdlftr]

LG,

You're right about the wide gulfs between willing, wanting and doing.

Still, people DO sometimes change, especially when they are motivated internally. I think the fallacy we're pointing out here is in thinking that external motivation (other people) is going to cause internal change.

Come to think of it, that's one of the exciting aspects of some of these stories. A guy sees big muscle and wants it,[or doesn't] but will never do anything about it. However, story villain/catalyst/friend [Enter stage right, Minor chord...] forces/hypnotizes/locks-up-a-room-for-a-year the hero and MAKES him grow! He emerges from his crysallis as a massively muscled thick-chested stud-in-spite-of-himself [Triumphal flourish, cannons going off, cymbals crashing, etc.]

For those of us who have a hard time perservering in our muscle-quest (me/everyone at one time or another) that's a major turn-on! If you could GUARANTEE growth without getting sick/major organ failure/arrest for violating drug laws/etc. that would make you a sh*tload of money!
-

Mdlftr

P.S. re: a sighting. I just met the new head lifeguard/swim team coach at the local pool over the weekend. Young, handsome, stacked dude with gleaming white straight teeth and the kind of full, thick pecs, arms and shoulders (and wicked chest-waist taper) and quite thick legs that make me think: Why didn't I look like that in high school!??! HOW come no body looked like that when I was in high school???
What are they feeding these kids? ! Gad--I feel like I missed the boat in a MAJOR way!

Back to the gym!!

[brent]

Originally Posted by Mdlftr

P.S. re: a sighting. I just met the new head lifeguard/swim team coach at the local pool over the weekend. Young, handsome, stacked dude with gleaming white straight teeth and the kind of full, thick pecs, arms and shoulders (and wicked chest-waist taper) and quite thick legs that make me think: Why didn't I look like that in high school!??! HOW come no body looked like that when I was in high school???
What are they feeding these kids? ! Gad--I feel like I missed the boat in a MAJOR way!

Back to the gym!!

Time for us to move to Ohio to, um, er, ah, swim. Yeah, that's it, swim!

[Notbigenuff]

Originally Posted by Mdlftr

LG,

Why didn't I look like that in high school!??! HOW come no body looked like that when I was in high school???
What are they feeding these kids? ! Gad--I feel like I missed the boat in a MAJOR way!

Back to the gym!!

You, me, and several thousand (million) others feel the same way! I think a lot of it has to do with the "coming out" of weightlifting as a training method. In my case, my school didn't get it's first weigh training equipment (a Universal machine) until I was in Junior High. Nowdays, this same school sports a weight training area that puts a couple of the local gyms to shame! And it seems that even the kids in the Science Club are built these days...

(By the way, Science Club kids were always cool--but now they look it too )

[glammaman2000]

...male vanity is just WAAAAY more accepted than it used to be!

[Notbigenuff]

Originally Posted by glammaman2000

...male vanity is just WAAAAY more accepted than it used to be!

Just one more thing to give thanks for each and every day this summer as the next "side of beef" goes walking by...

[PlugNPlay76]

Ok, one word, WOW.

I think I'm just going to have to pretty much print this thread and give it to my friend. This has turned out to be quite the hot topic.... maybe I should ask more questions like this Thank guys for your words, opinions and answers, so far. Alot of them seem very helpful, also, interesting. Keep it comming guys... this is answering alot of questions for me too for I have found myself in similar situations.

Also, a little update: Eric and his b/f were actually checking out engagement rings/wedding rings today. Eric seemed very happy when he told me over the phone. He also told me that his b/f said that he pretty much wants to work out more anyway 'cause it's not easy to carry around 400lbs. So, they're going to try to turn an unused house trailer on their land into a small workout facility since there isn't quite that much of a local gym in their area...

My, the fantasies I could have about that.

Anyway, keep it comming, and thanks guys,
Plug.

[brent]

Oh my God, a 400 pound guy, and his partner working out together in their own facility. I think that's the fantasy of most members here...

[polomuscle]

Originally Posted by PlugNPlay76

Hey guys,
is it wrong for his b/f to want to change for him?

Plug.

This is a great topic. I am having a possible breakup with my bf right now over this very subject. My sense of it is that there has to be SOME sexual spark between two guys. I have fetishes and fantasies that turn me on much more than my bf does. But i am emotional with my boyfriend, we are intimate, and i love him. I am not emotional, raw, vulnerable, or intimate when i'm strapped in a machine and being force fed roids so i can grow instantly into a polo muscle dude. the only emotion is a kind of arrogance, mixed with euphoria and sexual excitement. Not the same.
Still--my boyfriend is androgenous/girly, and i am more built. Sometimes sex between us is just bad--i have to imagine other things. And so he feels cut off too. Sometimes it's better--but i still know this:

These muscle fantasies are here because they make us feel like hyper-masculine men. i'm not sure if that's internalized homophobia, coming out of the pressure from society to be manly... feeling like being queer takes away your masculinity and so you have to overcompensate...i mean, for me, i find it hard to eat ass, or swallow cum, does that mean that i don't like being gay? yet i love to be fucked. i wish that my bf had big pecs for me to touch and look at while he was fucking me.

I ask myself....maybe i should quit the muscle fantasies, like quitting alcohol or cigaretttes....after all, the definition of addiction is
"something we do again and again thinking it will make us happier when it actually doesnt"...

i have started going to the gym more lately, hoping that getting more buff will make sex between us hotter---it's too early to tell...but i do know my roommate is getting turned on by me so i'm making progress (i am NOT sleeping with my roommate).

i can't expect my bf to partake in muscle fantasies, he's not interested... he does want to get stronger, a little, but the point is, he isnt going to feed my fetishes and desires. the question is, can i tell him about them (i havent told him all the details)...and then he and i can modify our sex to try and be closer and more loving....

or is it just not gonna work--and even though the intimacy is great, and the cuddling, and doing things together, it ain't workin' in bed and it ain't GONNA work, so i'd better cut it off right now and save us both the misery, and try to find someone built and muscular.

is the fantasy so specific that it will never be realized in reality? and therefore shouldn't i stay with my great bf and make the best of being human in an imperfect world?

or, maybe i can aspire to grow, aspire to get buff, aspire to be more chiseled, more Polo, more prepped out and masculine and jockish...even if it's only in the gym and in my fantasies, if not in the rest of my life where being a preppy muscle jock makes no sense.... and then i can find a guy who is into the same thing. i mean, look at the number of guys who are into a&f models... the number of gay guys who spend HOURS in the gym.... there are lots of us out there who want to be and feel and look healthy and masculine and muscular... and CLEARLY from this forum, a LOT of them have a brain, too.

I'm feeling very conflicted about all of it. It seems to me that two sex partners either CLICK or they don't. you have to be honest and look at it---ask yourself, "do i imagine myself with him/her 5 years down the road? 10?....can i imagine myself cumming with him/her as an expression of love?"

if not... time to move on.

Recognize that "the body thing", you are doing is for yourself, nobody else! It will be yours as long as you work at it. Boyfriends come and go, but you only have one body. The body thing is your dream. Only you can make it come true. Don't let anybody take it away from you. Don't let anybody force you into their dream if you have to give up yours unwillingly. It's a formula for disaster down the line.

Now the "love, sex, fantasy" issues, wow, that's a loaded question.

I've been of the belief that if you want a bodybuilder, you've got to be a bodybuilder, but being a bodybuilder doesn't guarantee you are going to get your bodybuilder. I think two bodybuilders together make a hot looking couple and if well matched can have a good life. However, during that life, situations change. Health issues, emotional issues, financial issues and more. How well the couple weathers those issues has nothing to do with how mutually buff they are.

Sexual fantasies are a powerful force. Depending on age we handle them differently. To the young they are amost all consuming. As we get older priorities change. In any case I don't think it's healthy to let fantasies and fetishes override critical decisions. Separate the true desires and possible achievements from pure fantasy.

Finding someone with exactly your idea of perfect sexual fantasy, is in itself a fantasy. Some give and take would be nice, but if it's an all or nothing issue then someone is going to get left out.

[Mdlftr]

Polomuscle,

I read your post, and had to respond. You raise many good, thoughtful points. I'm only going to address one of them, very briefly.

The physical side of any long-term relationship ends up being the least important part, over the long haul. In my experience, the sex is not as exciting after the first few years. This is not getting old, or needing Viagra--it just that the physical act takes its place in a relationship, and it usually is important--but not as important as the trust, and understanding and emotional support.

Look, if it's sensation, you can get that from your right hand---you want more from a human being. A human being can excite you, challenge you, take you to the depths and the heights. Your hand....well....

Looking good is great--but how many people marry a magazine picture? Try to focus on what's important for you in a relationship. Are your needs being met? Is the physical aspect just a cover for something else that's on your mind? Maybe he doesn't share core values; maybe you feel that he doesn't respect your choices, and, ultimately, you. Only you know what's at the heart of it.

Believe me, it's not because he doesn't have 52 inch pecs that you're thinking this. Maybe he doesn't have a 52-inch heart? Nothing suggested here, just mentioning that you might want to probe a bit deeper...

My two analytical cents,

Mdlftr

[glammaman2000]

#1:STOP BEATING UP ON YOURSELF!(always a good idea) #2:i've always thought one of the best things about being gay was what some people think is the hardest.no role models.no rules!you get to make your own.it makes you think(always a good idea)don't get hung up on defining your relationship(s)boyfriends,lovers,f**k-buddies.sometimes you have to stop discussing your relationship&just HAVE one.stop driving&see where it goes?

[brent]

Polo, as stupid and vague as this will sound, I am going to say, "Listen to your heart." Only you know if you truly love this guy, or if you had an infatuation that has since past. My theory is that if you truly love someone, they will become more beautiful to you over time. Also, if they can't accept you passion for muscle (I said accept not share) then I'd question how much they really love you. these are my thoughts.

[polomuscle]

well, i copped to my guy about my fantasies. told him everything. he has not reacted yet ( i sent an email). bottom line is brent you are right. if we love each other, that's what's most important. how strong our bond is remains to be seen. anyway i think it's time for me to stop feeling guilty about the things that turn me on and start enjoying them--realized, or fantasized.

[brent]

I hope my advice is good. However, I don't think we should ever feel guilt. It's a waste of an emotion. I think it's better to have enjoyment and productive emotions. Enjoy your obsessions, I think they were given to us by God/the Universe/Buddha/Etc.

[polomuscle]

Originally Posted by brent

I hope my advice is good. However, I don't think we should ever feel guilt. It's a waste of an emotion.

I assume you never do anything bad. I guess guilt is a vanity; remorse is necessary if you've say, killed someone.

But really, thank you for this thread. It's taken me that one step further to confronting my desires. When you understand WHY you use/need/want a fantasy, you stop feeling conflicted about it and start seeing it for what it is and how it can fit into reality in a healthy way.

[brent]

Originally Posted by polomuscle

I assume you never do anything bad. I guess guilt is a vanity; remorse is necessary if you've say, killed someone.

I have done plenty of things that might be wrong, and I do feel remorse, apologize, try to learn what I can from it, then move on with my life. Sitting there feeling guilty, and not taking action won't help anyone.