Acceptible(?) Bigotry

[howardbeatman]

I am aware that most of the writers and readers of this website are gay. Big whoop; if I don't want to read a story with gay characters, I don't. But I am concerned that most of the straight characters in the stories here are portrayed as bullies and/or buffoons. And that a number of stories involve straright men turning gay.

Yes, I am aware that these are fictional stories and that most of them are wish-fulfillment. And that both are not real. And that wish-fulfillment is fun.

But the two factors I mentioned above are bigoted. Think not? Suppose word got around of a website where most of the gay characters are portrayed negatively and where a number of stories involve gay men turning straight. The LEAST result would be a flame-war and the most probable result would be a successful campaign to shut down the site.

You want to be respected? Respect others.

[Slevin]

Writing is a form of expression. You can't really expect people to write about topics they are not passionate about. The gay/straight thing is a pretty big issue. I think if you look for issues of discrimination you are bound to find them but I don't think a majority of stories have an intentional "anti-straight" message.

[soccerstud88]

Wow... Get over yourself! Its our stories, its our decision. If you don't like it, write your own

[TheMM]

Originally Posted by soccerstud88

Wow... Get over yourself! Its our stories, its our decision. If you don't like it, write your own

Calm down SS.

Yes, you are correct, many stories do have straights, basically acting like asses and bein stupid. But certainly you can't deny that just to some degree, men (straight or not) act like that in the real world?

This is a mostly gay site, sometimes there is bound to be a little bit of annoyance at straights, mostly because they hark (for no good reason) on us so much. To some degree, putting "stupid straights" into our stories is a way of letting out that frustration of real life.* Even if we deny it, it can still be put into our stories by our subconscience.

*Which is why I constantly joke about "real life" and "reality" getting in the way of what we do here on this site.

[abbraxis]

Well, I think the OP's right in mentioning that most straight characters act rather one-dimensionally toward other gay characters. I think that works in the movies... but it's really not accurate to real life.

Yes, gays are discriminated against and I'm not denying that... but by and large, most people are at least understanding - if nothing else, they won't beat you up over it... they just won't talk to you again - of homosexuals.

As for straight people turning gay? Who cares? I don't see that as an issue, personally.

With that said, authors have the right to write whatever they want just as I have the choice to read whatever I want. I think the OP is just expressing a concern, so either others can ignore it or engage in debate.

He's not trying to censor anyone (I don't think)... I just think he's asking that others be more considerate, which they of course have the right to ignore. Granted, he could have expressed his concerns a little more thoughtfully... but I understand what he's saying.

[Username3]

I never thought of it that way before.
No one is insulting straight people in anyway, at least I don't think so.

Even if they are, who cares?
We all know everyone's personallity is diffrent & not a bully or an idiot

[rextorres]

I have to agree with him on one point and that is the portrayal of straight muscle guys as bullies. I know I've complained about that on this forum before and I never use this theme in any of my stories. I have plenty of muscle growth stories on here and on CYOC (a VERY gay website!) even though I am straight myself.

[Slevin]

The line kind of becomes blurred. You can't really know the true intention of the author unless you ask them.

A straight person may interpret a straight person going gay as a negative act. However a homosexual person might view it as the person merely showing their true nature in the heat of passion. And sometimes people are turned on by violence and aggression.

I think for most people this represents fantasy. It's a healthy expression of emotions that might otherwise be "socially unacceptable" to play out in reality. I've never seen any evidence that people translate very much of this into reality. I for one do not have a magic growing genie or a hidden family muscle gene :P

[Rowan]

Originally Posted by Slevin

A straight person may interpret a straight person going gay as a negative act. However a homosexual person might view it as the person merely showing their true nature in the heat of passion.

That's usually how I interpret it, and that's how it would play out in my stories (Joel's narcissism being a totally different issue), and I try to make all my characters three dimensional. Although, truthfully, some characters are much better in two. lol.

Originally Posted by Slevin

I for one do not have a magic growing genie or a hidden family muscle gene :P

Man, though. I would totally like to have a magic growing genie...

[Poor Horatio]

I haven't surveyed the entire archive to see if indeed MOST straight characters are bullies or buffoons, certainly many are. Many gay characters are as well. Muscle growth stories here run the gamut from passionate romance to snuff. Many, many stories deal with dominance and control; subjects synonymous with an attraction to muscle for some people. Many such stories have bullies and buffoons in them. You may have missed this point by avoiding the gay themed stories.

As for straight men turning gay; how exactly is that bigoted? Honestly, I don't understand your point. What would the non-bigoted alternative be in your opinion? Again, not being a wise ass, I'd genuinely like to understand your point of view. I would find a story featuring a gay man turning straight to be bigoted only if the author clearly expressed the opinion that gay people were inferior and turning straight was the last, best hope for all of them. A story in which a straight person turned one individual gay person straight for his or her own erotic or desirous fulfillment would not strike me as bigoted.

Lastly, imagining an all gay or gay dominate world may be a reflection of gay people's desire to enjoy life free from oppression, not hatred of straight people; just as imagining a world in which fantastic muscle growth is celebrated instead of viewed as fetishistic doesn't represent a hatred of people who don't appreciate fantastic muscle growth. I think generalizing about authors and forum members intent and beliefs about this subject may be a little...well, you know.

[fillups44]

Originally Posted by howardbeatman

Suppose word got around of a website where most of the gay characters are portrayed negatively and where a number of stories involve gay men turning straight. The LEAST result would be a flame-war and the most probable result would be a successful campaign to shut down the site.

You want to be respected? Respect others.

So there aren't sites like these??? Open your eyes!! Have you seen the mainstream media for many years? There is a whole religious movement devoted to turning gay people straight. Gay men used to be shown almost exclusively as disturbed psychos bent on murdering people or annoying lisping ineffectual sidekicks (which was the most positive depiction we could hope for). I mean we have elected members of Congress comparing gay sex to having sex with animals and the biggest gross out moment in the new Harold and Kumar movie is when two gay men kiss.

Please, there might be a few unsavory straight guy stories lurking around the site but the site is certainly not devoted to negative depictions of straight guys. A lot of the better written stories do contain three dimensional and sympathetic straight characters and actually there is very little straight bashing here despite the very real gay bashing that does occur in society at large. The fact is that the site welcomes contributors no matter what gender or orientation they are as long as they write about muscle growth.

This is a free uncensored forum. I hope it remains as such!

[7leecker]

This is erotic fiction. Types and stereotypes abound. Applying real-world standards to fictional and fantastical behavior and personalities takes the fun out of writing and reading these stories.

[mordre_t]

There is no such thing as a moral or immoral story. Stories are well written or poorly written. That is all.

A little revision of Oscar Wilde there.

Discrimination doesn't work like an A=B, B=C, so A=C formula, despite how some reductivist thinkers would like it to. If straight-bashing is a real problem and when straight people fear even revealing their sexual preference publicly, then your point might hold water. As it is, there is a gross power imbalance in society, so the 'reverse discrimination,' while possible, does not and cannot work in a tit-for-tat fashion.

Yes, yes, it is certainly difficult to be a heterosexual white male in today's society. Victims of such persecution definitely have a license to grouse about those dominant gays and their merciless heterophobic prejudice.

Question: Have you lived in fear of a group of violent gay men as you walk down a city street after dark?

Only the most closeted or the 'stealthiest' of gay men ('stealth gay' is what I call a "he's gay?! I had no idea!!" type) can claim to have never felt fear, intimidation, or even violence in the course of their everyday life. These negative experiences leak into the stories because that is the reality most gay men have experienced.

It is wrong to imply that all or most straight people are violent gay-bashers. They are a small minority. But the stories don't claim otherwise. You are the one who did that.

Goodness, almost all of my friends are straight --- wonderful, open-minded, down-to-earth, heterosexual people (a majority of them are heterosexual men, actually). But homophobes and gay-bashers exist, and they often have a disporportionately huge and negative influence on the life of most homosexual men, and it is the authors' right to portray those experiences of discrimination, prejudice, and violence as they see fit.

In conclusion: why see it as negative stereotyping? Why not see it as exposing a social ill as the shameful behavior that it is? I doubt the group of frat boys who yell "fag!" will read the stories on this site, but maybe if they did, the portrayals of themselves as violent troglodytes would make them rethink their behavior?

[mmfan2]

I think this is a great thread. As a writer of several stories as described by the original poster I have often wondered about the "what is my moral responsibility here?".

It does irk me that I make a lot of straight guys homophobic in my stories (maybe 50%) when my encounters with straight men in real life wouldn't be more than 3% homophobic (maybe I'm lucky).

In essence, mind control stories (which I write) I guess are a form of rape fantasy, a very popular genre on the internet and entirely fictional ... just because one fantasizes about being or performing rape 100% does not mean you want to rape or be raped! For it to actually happen in real life would be a horrible crime.

I guess:
1. They're fictional stories of my deepest darkest fantasies, so there's a lot of darkness in them.
2. I sort of assume the "straight" men in the story are homophobic because they are actually gay underneath and when "turned gay" it's only their real natures coming out (a lot of gay men go through a similar process when coming out)
3. I try to put non-homophobic (ie normal) men in the stories to contrast with the dickhead getting converted.
4. I listen to feedback from people such as yourself and definitely keep it in mind when writing.
5. Curse society that fetishized (for gay men) straight men and given me these kinky turn-ons!

[hollow]

Wow. How one post can stir up so much positive and negative discussion. (mostly positive )
Well I agree with everybody else. If you really don't enjoy literature containing straight guys being
the antagonist or turning gay then don't read it.
But nice food for thought on the possible flaming of this site. (gotta have something
nice to say to soften the criticism, right? )

[howardbeatman]

I thought a lot before starting this thread. The main fear holding me back was that most of the responses would be personal attacks on me for even broaching such an issue. I am sincerely impressed and pleased that none of the other posters have personally attacked me, no matter how vehement their disagreement. I have a lot more hope for the state of discourse in this society... the fact that this website is mostly devoted to fiction makes it more important rather than less.

One point to those disagreeing with me - go back and read my original post again. I am NOT talking about real life; I am talking about fiction and what is socially permissable to express.

[BBMikeNJ]

I think fiction is the perfect place to express the attraction many people harbor for muscular, straight, bullying, buffoonish bad boys. In real life, it would get old real fast. I remember when the pro baseball player John Rocker got into hot water for stuff he said in interviews, I was annoyed at myself for finding him even remotely appealing (it might have had something to do with the fact that his neck was the size of tree stump), and the thought of actually spending time with him... not so good. But the fantasy of spending a couple hours with him just as he's realizing that all his pent-up anger is due to his latent homosexuality...now there's a story. Is it bigoted? Maybe, but you gotta wonder why a guy who is a big straight good-looking jock would be so ill-tempered. You'd think he'd be thanking his lucky stars everyday and getting along with everyone. But that wouldn't make for much of a plot!

[Eager Muscle]

When Gay Pride parades are aired they reinforce known stereotypes like leathermen and dykes on bikes - not so much because the media is anti-gay as because a float celebrating gay accountants wouldn't be as telegenic or make great press. Except maybe in the Wall Street Journal. Or if the celebrated accountants were leather dykes on bikes, or looked like "Ugly Bettys'" Henry.

I suspect that with erotic gay MUSCLE fiction there is a revenge component because a lot of the writers WERE or still are the proverbial 98 pound weakling.

Also, straight characters like sympathetic bosses, nice coaches, sweet aunts or fag hags do not make for as interesting reading as straight bullies or buffoons, which are likely either a reflection of the writers' experiences, a similar perpetuation of stereotypes, or both. Is perpetuating stereotypes within a specific target market (male muscle growth fiction fans) rather than the mass market (televised Pride parade coverage) any better? Discuss.

[abbraxis]

To add to Eager Muscle's last point - it's the same way the media treats White Nationalists.

Before I continue, let me make PERFECTLY CLEAR that I am not a "WN" (as they call themselves), but I am a member of StormFront, though I usually post in the "Opposing Views" forum... because I have opposing views (duh!).

But since I've been there, I've actually changed my view on white nationalism as a whole. Sure, a lot of them are mindless whakos who are more intrested in hating blacks, jews and arabs than preotecting "white heritage" - but some are very eloquent and passionate, and sometimes even make a good point, and though I still disagree with a lot of what they say, I've come to respect them.

But the media enjoys feeding us the stereo-typical, hood-wearing southern bigot because society is more comfortable in believing that is what they are. Bigots. But some aren't. They just have very strong (and different) convictions.

So here the media is perpetuating one image of WNs, even though the mass market is a bit different.

[Eager Muscle]

Wowee, abbraxis, for once I'm speechless. From a question about acceptable bigotry to a defense of white nationalism? That's got to be The Reply Of The Month, lol. I'm sitting THIS one out!

[Chi-town]

Wow. The more I think about this question, the more complicated it gets!

My initial thought is, of course, that it's fantasy. Just because a majority of straight men in many of these stories are assholes is not meant to say that a majority in real life are. Yeah, I think there's a bit of revenge fantasy in there, where gay men feel like they have the advantage for once. Heck, it's one of the reasons I enjoy 'em. But it's fantasy, not a blueprint for real life (e.g., there is no "conversion agenda").

I will say, however, that the stereotype of the bullying straight man exists for a reason; because quite a few people out there act like that. And some members on this site have suffered because of that kind of behavior, whether physically or online. Look at the forums for any of the bodybuilding sites, which are dominated by aggressive straight men, to get an idea of what I'm talking about.

But I do see your point about what is acceptable. I'm sure that you, as a straight man and therefore in the minority on this site, see these stereotypes over and over again and must feel misrepresented or even threatened(?). I compare it to how women must feel when they see those harshly negative portrayals of women in any of those Will Ferrell / Vince Vaughn / Owen Wilson movies, where they're portrayed as vacuous, opportunistic, shrewish, easily-charmed, hysteria-prone, you name it. Seriously, even I look at those and say, "Do they really think all women are like that?" One can say, "well, they're just movies," but does that make it OK?

So, I wish I had a clear conclusion, but I don't. I'm glad you felt you could bring it up, and that you've appreciated people's answers.

And keep reading!

[howardbeatman]

Eager Muscle, you are a very wise man.

[Esperanto Lives]

I don't believe for a minute this place is excessively prejudiced or anything of the kind...in fact, I'd say it's one of the more tolerant and diverse places on the 'net.

I'm proud to say I've written a lot of stories where the nature of the central relationship is male/female, and I have never received any flak whatsoever for it. Never gotten a negative comment, or a negative PM because of this...not even once.

I talk with a lot of people that like my work, and like Cher or Shakira, most of my fans are gay.

(And why not? Gays and bis are sexier than normal guys. I guess it's all that testosterone. Mrrow!)

I used a generic, genderless screen-name meant to conceal my true gender identity, so as not to spook some people out...and I'm not entirely certain I did the right thing. When I announced I was a muscle-lovin' lady, the response was universally "whoa, far out!"

I don't know, maybe I'm treated differently because I take an effort to make a contribution to the site, and do good, original work. I can't emphasize this enough: if you want to see something, or more of something, do it yourself and don't wait for others.

On the other hand, because I make a real contribution, because I try to engage in dialogue, because I make an effort to improve this forum, I am outraged by anyone that tells me I can't tell the kind of stories I want. It hasn't happened yet, and I don't think it will, but allow me to pre-emptively head-off this kind of stupid bullshit by saying that I write what I want to write about, and I'm not going anywhere. Deal with it.

By the way, just because the stories I've written so far have been "muscle stud grows and has sex with muscle-lovin' bad girl/groupie" does not mean they all will be. I have in mind a few yaoi stories too that are coming down the pipeline.

Also, I think it's worth noting that the only stories that are really anti-female and mysoginistic aren't gay stories, but straight ones. "Big Timmy" for instance. What a nasty, stupid Neanderthal...I don't care how big his biceps are. If a guy calls me "bitch" during sex (or any other time), I'm tasering his ass.

[abbraxis]

Originally Posted by Eager Muscle

Wowee, abbraxis, for once I'm speechless. From a question about acceptable bigotry to a defense of white nationalism? That's got to be The Reply Of The Month, lol. I'm sitting THIS one out!

... looking back, I have no idea why I wrote that...

[fillups44]

Lots of good stuff here. I think.

Great post Esperanto and a nice affirmation on the inclusiveness of the site!!

I've been thinking a bit that part of a lot of musclegrowth stories is revenge fantasy. Putting power into the hands of the formerly powerless. There are quite a few stories here of students beating up teachers, prisoners taking on guards, people reversing the usual pecking order of power that we all are subjected to. Even the old Popeye cartoons had a big dumb jock picking on a little skinny guy who gets super strength to take revenge.

It's not surprising with this tendency that at least some of the stories would turn around the real world disparities of society. Not all these stories are about turning the tables on those in power but I think there is something sort of integral to a lot of the fantasy for many of us.

[Ventrego]

I'm going to bring this thread briefly back from the dead to raise another point. I think the "straight-turning-gay" angle has a more concrete source.

Kinsey estimated about 10% of the population is gay. This means, as a gay person, 9 out of 10 of the people you are attracted to will be straight. (Or at least, not gay-identified.) That's a lot of frustration!

Statistically, any gay writer will have had a crush on at least one straight person in their lifetime. It will resonate with gay readers for the same reason. So, in fiction, we get to present the world as we wish it were: that hot unavailable person decides they're willing to go for us!

Attention straight society: the straight-turned-gay-just-for-you theme is not an attack on your masculinity/femininity. It's an expression of frustration that some of you are so freakin' hot and so freakin' straight.

[xythan_shadow]

I can't believe I missed this thread the first time around. Allow me to add my 1.25c (adjusted for inflation)

Speaking about me, my stories are usually how I would like to see the world. A lot of my stuff is what would the world be like if everyone was accepted for who they were not what color their skin was or who they loved.

My experiences have been greatly colored by the area I grew up in. South Carolina is the buckle of the bible belt, so my life has been colored greatly with intolerance and hate. I consider myself lucky that I was raised to treat others like I would treat myself and that went far to cultivate the person I am now. But, I have vivid memories of people who treated me differently because I was black, and it took me years to admit to myself that I was gay.

A lot of my fears are reflected in my writing, but even more than that, hope shines through. I can't recall any of my stories where someone was forced to change from straight to gay. Most of the time, they were gay all along, but closeted, like I was. More times than others, my stories are based on someone coming into his own when he's young, in a world where good is the driving force and people are there to help no matter what.

But, it is all fantasy in the end. There are several stories where there's good straight people, evil gay people, women, animals, gods, devils, and above all, stereotypes. I find the best stories are the ones who can stay away from the stereotypes and create a fantasy that draws you in. I know that's what I'm striving for each time I write.