dealing with tense/taut muscles

[traveller]

I've had a continuing problem with my forearm muscles being tense instead of pliable when I'm relaxed. Last year they were so taut, that it was VERY painful for me to do dumbbell curls or similar curling movements. At that time I went to a chiropracter who specialized in ART (active release therapy) to loosen my forearm muscles and to help me reduce the pain. That helped a lot, but I felt he could never go deep enough to break up all the knots or adhesions. His treatments, however, enabled me to do dumbbell curls again without the pain. Since then I do lots of stretching for my forearms before I workout, and between sets for exercises that require a lot of grip strength. But, my forearm pain returns periodically.

After asking a few bodybuilders, who wore bandages or straps around their forearms, I got the name of a trainer/massage therapist who successfully dealt with forearm injuries. (BTW, one bodybuilder who had the treatments no longer is in pain, but he still wears support straps on his forearms "just in case.") I finally saw the massage therapist today after months of procrastination. I think my frustration with forearm pain interfering with my bench press poundages drove me to do something about it. Today's treatment included Rolfing and ART techniques in addition to time spent showing me stretches to perform, and how to use a foam roller to loosen those muscles. Some of the time, the treatment was p*a*i*n*f*u*l. On a scale from 1 to 10 (where 10 = I want my Epidural), the pain reached 8 for a few agonizing minutes. The 1.5 hour treatment made my brachial radialis muscle somewhat pliable for the first time in a long time. I hope that after a few more treatments I'll be able to workout without any forearm pain.

Several hours later at the gym, I briefly chatted with a bodybuilder acquaintance who was wearing a large support bandage around his left forearm because it's causing him a lot of pain when he's curling. He gladly accepted the contact information for the massage therapist I saw today--a smile suddenly appeared on his face which normally looks grim. That guy is short (5'4" or 5'5") with lots of muscles and relatively low bodyfat for that weight. He's a former competitive gymnast who has no aesthetic proportion since he's a fireplug who just wants to pack on more muscle.

Just want to share the pain... ;^)

Traveller

[massingUP]

Hey Traveller,

I had a similar injury in my forearm about 2 years ago, though luckily it wasn't nearly as severe. I got it wrestlign with a buddy who was very well trained but who yanked my arm just that tiny bit too much and stretched/damaged a tendon... And that led to other problems with my right forearm, since I was writing my dissertation at the time and thus typing about 8 hours a day on the computer, etc etc...

I'm sure you've already tried this, but I found that a month or two of glucosamine/chondroitin/MSM made a real difference. It loosened up some tendons and helped a bit of the joint-issue I'd developed, which meant that I was in less pain and that I was thus more able to relax the muscles in my forearm. And then I just made sure that any contributing factors in my life -- like the height of my chair in relation to my computer keyboard, which can contribute via carpal-tunnel -- were taken care of.

At any rate, it sounds like yuo're well on your way to recovery. And the injury doesn't sound exactly comparable. But just wanted to say that things can and do get better... or at least manageable. Stay strong, and keep at it. <g>

-- James

[brent]

Thank you for sharing you experience with us. I'd like to learn whatever I can from your experience, so that I can try to avoid it in myself. I definitely have sympathy for you, I've heard that Rolfing is long, expensive and painful. My husband is down in California, visiting his brother who owns a large physical therapy practice, so I have him asking his brother about the forearms. I will post any information I learn about this. I was thinking about a thread about avoiding injuries this Summer, but I'm not sure where that thread should be started. The reason I was thinking of it, it that my husband injured his shoulder by building up his chest, and neglecting his shoulder. He got some good exercises, and stretches, and we will be sharing them here, as soon as he gets back Wednesday. I hope you feel better soon!

Brent.

[glammaman2000]

i had a complete Rolfing series(takes about 10 sessions)+some"advanced work"a few years later.it was phenomenal,but too complicated to explain here.as a rule;i would caution everyone that the muscle on the top of your forearm(the one you work doing reverse curls)is one of the easiest to strain in your whole body.NEVER support a weight on a locked(fully extended)elbow(on flies,laterals,etc)

I'd like to add that yes indeed, the forearm muscles are easily strained. They are small muscles and easily overtrained, over stretched, over extended. Stress them but don't over stress them. They get a workout doing other exercises so if you work on them specifically do only two or three sets of between 6 to 8 reps.

I was taught that when doing forward wrist curls (thumbs outward), not to uncurl your fingers and let the bar slide down another inch or so down the fingers. No purpose to it, and it puts unnecessary strain on the tendons. Keep the bar grasped, roll the wrist toward your biceps, hold and squeeze a bit at top then let the wrist relax slowly. Up slow, hold & squeeze, down slower.

When doing reverse curls (thumbs inward) use significantly lighter weight until you have forearms like Popeye's (symetrically huge on both top and bottom).

Afterwards, work your fingers, wiggle them, open/close them several times, massage your forearm from wrist to elbow . 1) it helps move the blood through the area and flush out the toxins. 2) it feels good!

Work them last. Don't kill your forearms before doing any more lifting. Doh!

PS: Just had a thought: Uncurling the fingers during wrist curls might have a purpose for mountain climbers, but how how much does the average mountain climber weigh?

[ethernet_jock]

massingup & others,

Any tips for a fellow computer nerd on keeping my forearms healthy? I've found that on days when I'm writing code or doing something else typing intense that I sometimes strain my left or right forearms to a point where it hurts to move them for several days. I generally continue with my workouts anyway and they don't seem to make it too much worse... but sometimes this goes on for weeks.

What should I be doing as far as typing posture?

Should I be working my forearms intentionally (right now I'm not working them at all)?

When I hurt them - should I be wearing some kind of support brace to help get them better?

Thanks guys!!! This has been sort of a chronic problem for me but not so severe that it's ridiculous yet... sometimes I need advil but generally I can just deal with the pain.

What IS your typing posture? Especially related to wrist position. Do you do a LOT of typing? Are you sure your forearm problems are related to your workouts? How do you feel about the size of your forearms relative to the rest of your physique?

Absent the answers to these questions. I'm only guessing and giving generic advice.

As mentioned in my earlier post, forearms do get a workout doing other exercises. Things like curls, dips, pullups, deadlifts, etc. all require grasping with your hands and consequently your forearms.

However this is relatively static grasping. Constantly in one position, just enough force required to keep the hand on the bar. Wrist curls (forward & reverse) performed at the end of a day's workout give some training to the forearm muscles that involves active contraction AND extension.

If you're now lifting some pretty hefty weight doing curls, dips, pullups, deadlifts, etc. without working the forearms alone, then I propose that the forearms may be straining to keep up with the weight your other (bigger) muscles have learned to handle.

Some people say forearm training is never necessary. I suspect that those people are perhaps subconciously working their forearms a little harder than they think they are and being a bit more sucessful at making them grow than the rest of us are. "Never" is terribly limiting word. I say that forearms sometimes need a little direct attention too.

However, remember they ARE small but can grow a lot just like other muscles. Mine responded VERY nicely to forearms curls done at the end of my "legs" day. Don't overtrain forearms by working them on days you use them a lot for arm work.

Big rock hard forearms feel so hot!!!

[massingUP]

Ether,

The reading I did when I was suffering from the same problem said that your elbows should always be HIGHER than the wrists when typing. And that's very rarely the case. So you should probably either lower your desktop and/or keyboard, or raise the height of your chair. That should certainly help.

And various coder friends of mine have regimens of finger stretches and exercises that they do throughout the day while they're thinking, in between bouts of typing. They splay their fingers out, push them aganist each other, shake them out, bend them back towards their wrist (in a slow controlled fashion), etc etc... And I found that glucosamine/chondroitin helped with my forearm issues, but that might have been a different contributing factor.

Just a few suggestions.

-- J.

[ethernet_jock]

Thanks guys for taking the time to write informative and intelligent replies!!!

Massingup,

until I moved into my new office (yesterday) my chair was broken and the arm-rests were SIGNIFICANTLY below the height of the keyboard and desk. Now that I have a new chair and I'm typing to you today, it actually feels COMPLETELY different to type with this chair all jacked-up... I actually find myself typing faster and more comfortably already. Thank you! I'll try the glucosamine idea next time the pain gets to be too much! I worked out today despite my arm hurting a little and it really didn't seem to make it any worse... so... I dunno... I didn't do very many free-weights today though which seem to be much harder with a forearm problem. Stretches I've also been trying to do by myself and they do seem to help a little... but I always wondered if they were bad for me or good in the long run. Now that I know they're good, I'll do 'em all the time (not just when I'm commuting in the car).


Gryphon,

Typing posture just very recently improved (see my note to Mass above)... I was definitely feeling more pain on the days when I was writing code vs. doing other IT-type-tasks that involve less typing. I also recently acquired a Prefit "contour mouse". These mice are custom-sized to your hand size (XL in this case) and boy does it make a difference in mousing comfort. All those shitty logitech and microsoft mice and what-not that you get at Best Buy are made for little girls hands or little kids hands. I suggest that anyone who uses a computer as part of their job dish out the $100 for a countour optical mouse appropriate for their hand size (all the instructions are on the web site on how to measure your palm, etc...)... www.contourdesign.com...

2.) I believe my forearm problems are mostly NOT related to my workouts. THey don't seem to get much worse when I do work out... altho I do often catch myself using less-than-good form on the days that they hurt. I suppose that working-out could be an aggrivating factor, but I don't think that it's the cause.

3.) Actually I think my forearm size is pretty in-line.... you tell me. 13.25" forearms (at the thickest part) to 16" biceps. Is that in-line... or scrawney? Should I be doing forearm work outs on my leg/shoulder day? Incidentally - when is a good day to work abs? (something else I've yet to fully adopt into my routine)

Some people say forearm training is never necessary.

It's funny you should say that... my personal trainer when I began at Bally's this last November... " With the heavy weight that you're already lifting, if you stick to free-weights mostly for your work outs... you shouldn't really need to ever specifically do forearms by themselves. The muscle you gain in your forearms as they are just involved in controlling the weight is usually plenty." Now... Granted... this guy was fucking huge. Maybe only 5'8".... but he was a man's man, for sure.... and loved it (more than once he would actually instruct me to place my hand on the muscle that he was demonstrating so that I could 'feel how it worked') LOL.... man did I like that. I pretty much took any word of advice he offered me as solid gold.... or rock solid muscle... as the case may be. :P

Does anyone else have a preference about this too? I do see some guys in my gym doing forearm workouts but really it's pretty rare... Additionally... won't this just aggrivate my pain even more?

What you say, LG, makes perfect sense to me... and no doubt about hard huge forearms being majorly hot. Particularly if they're all veiny and thick... I love that. The last thing I wanna do though is injure myself enough to have to take even more time away from the gym to recover... I've had enough of that lately.

Thanks again everyone!!!!

Based on your description of your typing posture, I think that was a good candidate for problems. Small mice, wrong wrist position, long hours of typing... Yup, good chance for stress.

As for my opinion of your forearm size, I don't know. I can't visualize the numbers. You know what a good arm and forearm look like. If you're happy that's all that's important.

As for additional damage by doing workouts. Well, possibly, but if you are aware that you had a problem with wrist position and that is now fixed, then you should be getting better. Be cautious and observant for a few weeks and treat your forearms with tender loving care. Use them, massage them, feel them, love them, kiss them. Listen to them tell you how they feel.

If it's just muscle strain it's probably not much of a worry. However if it seems to be coming from the tendons, especially where they come close to the bones around the wrist, the problem could be more serious. Rest for a few days wouldn't hurt.

There's a old story known among musicians that a famous pianist (forgot his name) had soreness in his wrist and fingers but was determined to "work through" the pain and just keep practicing. To make a long story short if he had known then what we know today about Carpal Tunnel Syndrome" he wouldn't have ruined his career if he had just stopped for a few weeks. (anybody remember the name of the pianist?)

[BigSteve6ft3]

As a pianist myself, I'll weigh in here. The basic principle you need to observe to avoid carpal tunnel syndrome from typing, or from playing the piano, is that the wrist should not be bent, but straight. I.e., the forearm, wrist, and top of the hand should all line up in a straight line.

If your wrist is bent, the tendons connecting your forearm muscles to your fingers are forced to go around a corner. That awkward corner is where you get the friction that leads to inflamation.

So, whether your elbow is higher or lower than your wrist is not the primary concern. It's keeping the wrist straight. For playing the piano, where the keyboard is level, the elbow should be at roughly the same level as the wrist, because that way the wrist will be straight. (I have never understood how piano players in rock bands can play standing up. My wrists hurt like hell when I try to do that. I guess if you're just banging out a few chords and not doing any real finger work it might not be too bad.)

For most computer keyboards, which typically slope upward (as you move away from your body), I would contend that the elbows should be LOWER than the wrists, so that the forearms and wrists match the slope of the keyboard, again keeping the wrists unbent and avoiding that awkward corner. Works for me. One of my pet peeves these days is so-called "ergonomic" office furniture that apparently is designed for extremely short people. They always have a special keyboard holder that is adjustable to various levels BELOW desk level. As a tall guy, that feels exactly wrong to me, as it puts the keyboard down on my lap. I generally take those @$^#%! things off and put the keyboard up on my desk.

LG, I'm not sure, but I think the pianist you're thinking of might have been Byron Janis. Ring a bell?

Well, the pianist I had in mind was from the mid 18 hundreds, but a little bit of research with google using "pianist carpal career" turned up lots of examples of problems. Far more common than I had thought.

[Flexus Lee]

I used to suffer from a nagging sore lower back and my bf made me attend an Alexander Technique session. I didn't think it would do anything, but amazingly enough I found out I was holding myself wrong posture-wise and when I modified my stance and positioning my back cleared itself up.

There's no instructions as to what to do because Alexander Technique is specific for the individual and what inbuilt/born tensions they have. You can see benefits just after one session. http://www.alexandertechnique.com/

[ethernet_jock]

Wow, thanks again guys for the wealth of information... the arms level with the keyboard concept sounds about right to me too, that makes the most sense so far.

The pain itself, fortunately for me, is not in my wrist... but back in the bottom-side of my forearm towards the elbow and extending down to about the middle of the arm a little bit.... it definitely feels more akin to muscle strain to me than anything.

Major w00tage... you guys are so cool to help a 'little' guy like me. :P

Thank you!

[glammaman2000]

you can get"shin splints"on your forearms.it's caused by the belly of the forearm being forced past it's natural position;causing stress injuries along the bone.it's easiest to do during preacher curls,especially if you let the weight"fall"towards you at the top,contracted position.it will be more of a problem as the bicep&forearm get bigger.they can be quite painful&take a long time to heal.all you can really do is be careful about"slamming"the top of curls&/or wait for it to go away.

[ethernet_jock]

ohhhhh... very interesting. Seeing as preacher curls are one of my favorite things to do on bicep day... I'm definitely going to have to pay more attention to that last little bit of rep form.

Thanks again for that too!

[traveller]

massingUP:
Last year my chiropractor also recommended that I take a glucosamine supplement for my forearm injury. I guess I should probably take that while I'm recovering. It'll be just another pill for me to swallow at least twice a day. While on this current cycle I'm taking 6 different pills (supplements/herbal extracts) in addition to 2 Rx pills including an anti-estrogen. Let's just say it's a lot to swallow. :^)

As for my work environment, I had to fight with my previous employer's HR and facilities departments to modify my cubicle in a way that was comfortable for me--I had part of my cubicle desk surface raised so I can stand most of the day. I also kept part of the desk area lower so that I can sit if I wanted. The purchasing process of buying a $64 keyboard took about 1.5 months from a preferred vendor's limited selection of "ergonomic" keyboards. I was so frustrated by the delay, I bought my own keyboard that is both a typing and mouse surface. See http://www.fingerworks.com/lp_product.html. I never expensed the purchase because I wanted to keep the keyboard when I quit--4 months later.

LeatherGryphon:
Thanks for the info. about not uncurling my finger with forward wrist curls. I'll try to remember that at the gym.

Flexus Lee:
Out of curiosity and pain, I attended a few Feldenkrais movement workshops. They were interesting, but I stopped going to them for lack of time and scheduling conflicts. The quarterly weekend workshops in my area often conflicted with other commitments.

Traveller

[brent]

Originally Posted by traveller

massingUP:
Last year my chiropractor also recommended that I take a glucosamine supplement for my forearm injury. I guess I should probably take that while I'm recovering. It'll be just another pill for me to swallow at least twice a day. While on this current cycle I'm taking 6 different pills (supplements/herbal extracts) in addition to 2 Rx pills including an anti-estrogen. Let's just say it's a lot to swallow. :^)
... Traveller

The way Scott makes you sound (and he'd have no reason to lie) you must lift tremendous amounts of weight, which probably puts a great strain on your joints. The extra pills shouldn't be that bad as they are generally pretty small. I found that Trader Joe's has a good Join Support formula. It has Glucosamine Sulfate, Metyl-Sulfonyl-Methane (MSM), and Chondrotin Sulfate for a low price, my problem is that part of the contents come from animal sources. If that doesn't bother you, it's a great deal.


Also when you stretch your forearm by holding out your palm (fingers up), and pressing your fingers back toward your elbow, my Physical Therapist brother-in-law said that you should always put your arm straight our, not bend it like many people do. I'm not sure why, but it feels a lot better to me.

[traveller]

Originally Posted by brent

The way Scott makes you sound (and he'd have no reason to lie) you must lift tremendous amounts of weight, ...

I think you're inferring too much. For example, your bench is 315 lbs.? I haven't progressed past 315 during the past few years. I'm sure the injuries haven't helped, but I still categorize myself as lifting 'average' poundage category. My squat still is only 315 lbs. for 2-3 sets. These aren't heavy lifts in the bodybuilding world.

Originally Posted by brent

I found that Trader Joe's has a good Join Support formula. It has Glucosamine Sulfate, Metyl-Sulfonyl-Methane (MSM), and Chondrotin Sulfate for a low price, my problem is that part of the contents come from animal sources. If that doesn't bother you, it's a great deal.

Thanks for the info. I hope to remember to stop by TJ's this weekend. I've been stuck at work for 2 days--not kidding. I did flee for a few hours to work out, but I haven't returned home yet. Spending some time away from work would be nice.

Originally Posted by brent

Also when you stretch your forearm by holding out your palm (fingers up), and pressing your fingers back toward your elbow, my Physical Therapist brother-in-law said that you should always put your arm straight our, not bend it like many people do. I'm not sure why, but it feels a lot better to me.

I do the same kind of stretch between sets during workouts requiring lots of grip strength, e.g., arms and back.

Traveller

[glammaman2000]

forms of glucosamine,etc.are the liquids.Twinlab makes a Joint Fuel liquid.it is less expensive&WORKS BETTER than pills.tastes lousy.you may have to special order it.these supplements are primarily for joint&tendon problems.i haven't heard that they are good for muscle strains.

[Notbigenuff]

Originally Posted by traveller

I think you're inferring too much. For example, your bench is 315 lbs.? I haven't progressed past 315 during the past few years. I'm sure the injuries haven't helped, but I still categorize myself as lifting 'average' poundage category. My squat still is only 315 lbs. for 2-3 sets. These aren't heavy lifts in the bodybuilding world.
Traveller

Maybe not a lot of weight in the bodybuilding world, but out here where most of us live it still is--and from what I've observed well above the average! I guess it all depends on the standard that you measure yourself against...

Of course, if you are going to aim high you might as well aim for the stars--and Traveller, from the descriptions we've read of you from those who have met you, I think that you are a lot closer to the stars than you might think you are .

Keep lifting!

[brent]

My very heaviest bench is 325, but I don't do that very often, because I can't keep good form above 305 for more than a couple reps. This may not be that heavy of a weight in the bodybuilding world, and you may do more or less. My point is that I think that these are still big numbers for your joints. Some guys may be able to bench 700 lbs for 20 reps, for 6 sets and not feel it, but other guy's joints may explode under one third that pressure. I'm not stating this very well, but at the weights we push, you need to be nice to all your body parts. Give them what they need, and let them know you love them, and all that...

[glammaman2000]

...single-rep maximums are done with your TENDONS(&your mind!)much more than your muscles.big muscles are mainly a manifestation of muscular endurance.

[ethernet_jock]

ouch... if a 315 bench is just "average" then I might as well just give up now.



Give yourself some credit bro...

[brent]

Originally Posted by ethernet_jock

ouch... if a 315 bench is just "average" then I might as well just give up now.


Give yourself some credit bro...

Ethernet_Jock, please remember that he said it was average, "In the bodybuilding world". 315 lbs still is a LOT of weight, I rarely see guys that can handle that sort of weight at my gym. Also, because of your height, the bench press is one of your weakest lifts (as per another thread). I am still envious of your height, don't get me wrong, but it does mean you will have to work harder/smarter/more than us short people (I am half an inch under 6 ft.) Although it will take a little more for us to get you benching 315, it doesn't mean you should give up. Never give up on your dreams, or else what do you have to keep you going? Would you ever allow one of your kids to give up their dreams, in the future? I didn't think so. You are making solid progress, so just keep it up, and I'm sure I won't be the only one here cheering you on.