Masculinity

[Stoneman]

So hey guys. I know this forum is dedicated to muscle growth, but as a long-time member, I've noticed that a lot of the stories and fetishes also focus on masculinity.

I'll fess up, at this point in my life, I'm almost turned on more by masculinity than muscles. And I'm not just talking about external traits (hair, muscles, stature) but also how guys speak, and act and think.

This obsession of mine has not severely minimized my dating prospects to this point in my life, but I don't really want to go into that.

The trouble is the obsession has turned on me. I worry that I'm not masculine enough. Not only that I don't have enough muscle (who does), or body hair, or can't grow a beard, but that I don't sound manly enough, or act manly enough or think manly enough.

I've discussed this with my friends (and therapist), and sometimes I get the "love yourself for who you are" spiel, or "don't worry about that," or worst of all "gay guys aren't supposed to be masculine." This really get my hackles up. What is so wrong about wanting to be more masculine? Do you really think swish encoded into the "gay gene"? Where do we draw the line between loving who you are and self-improvement?

Have you guys ever dealt with these issues? Or just care to weigh in?

***

Unfortunately my work blocks this site with its websense, and I live at work, so if you want to contact me quickly, you can always Yahoo at me.

[Mdlftr]

Stoneman,

For some reason I have the impression you are in your early 20s. If so, then this question about your self is totally "appropriate" and "normal" for this stage of your life. At that stage, many people are making the transition from the extended adolescence of school to the "world" of work and finding your way. Everyone has questions about how they will fit in, what they will do in their lives and careers, and who they are.

Up through the 1970s and even 1980s, social expectations were pretty set. The expectations were clear: grow up, do well in school, learn a trade or earn a degree, then go out, get a job, settle down and get married and have kids. Then they were supposed to continue the cycle, ad infinitum.

In the 1990s and 200s, things REALLY changed. The economy tanked, it became really "hip and cool" to be "gay" or "different". No one could afford to get married, and those who did, put off having kids because it's so expensive.

Now a days, there are as many "norms" as they are people. Everyone is supposed to self-actualize, and "of course," those of you who aren't in a rush to get married, or who don't want to follow conventional norms in any way, are, of course "gay" or "repressed and kidding themselves" or "insert flavor of the week here". The reality is that the new norms are JUST as repressive and formulaic as the old ones.

As far as your self image that you "aren't muscular/masculine enough", read a little social history to get some perspective. In the mid 19th century, a tall, willowy, skinny male body was considered ideal, because it meant you were a man of fiscal means and did not have to work. Men with obvious muscles were looked down upon because they were obviously laborers whose only skill set was in their bodies. They were not considered desireable, but more like "dumb brute" beasts.

How's that for perspective?

Mdlftr

[arpeejay]

And here's some more...

For gay men, "masculine" and "feminine" can be a big deal, and people seem to have a lot of hang ups, a la "no fats, no fems, no fakes." Which always strikes me as rather rich, inasmuch as -- a la "attractiveness" -- almost all of those are qualities that rest "in the eye of the beholder."

I can pretty much guarantee you that no matter how butch you are, or think you are, someone out there somewhere is going to think you're "kind of femmy, huh?" You will find really big, butch, deepvoiced, hirsute musclemen who throw their legs up in the air at the sight of a big weenie and prissy, immaculately dressed (well, of course, they iron their underwear!) skinny, plucked, manicured, and powdered things who can take apart diesel engines with their eyes closed.

So (a) try to relax and (b) don't get caught up in the stereotypes.

All the best & xoxo...

Richard

[Mad Dog]

Originally Posted by Stoneman

What is so wrong about wanting to be more masculine?

Because if you can't hack it you beat yourself up about it?

[musqlure]

I see nothing wrong or unusual with a desire to be more masculine. It's what you're attracted to, so it seems normal to me that you would try to become more like that which you desire. For example, guys on this forum like muscle, so it stands to reason that they might work out and try to develop big muscles in the hope of attracting other guys with big muscles.

This isn't to say that attraction always works this way. There are certainly very masculine guys who prefer guys who are somewhat feminine, and there are big, muscular guys who like dudes who are thin. In matters of taste and attraction, these things are all very individual.

But if you can figure out how to be more masculine, then do it. You should be who and what you want to be.

[hulkoutlvr]

I'm not sure that characteristics can be classified quite so easily as to say "that's masculine" or "that's feminine".

I will be the first to confess to you that I'm not Paul Bunyan. I never was. Even as a child my heros and heroines were not the norm. We're talking Franklin Roosevelt, The Bionic Woman, Helen Keller, Charlie's Angels, and a host of others that got me stares and looks from the other little boys. Even now, at 35, there are times when I will find myself liking something and saying, "ok, now THAT's faggy!"

But I am who I am. I'm a simple, church going guy who follows bodybuilding, belts out karaoke in cowboy bars, and hangs with the rough and tumble big guys. But I also enjoy wineries, knitting scarves and hats, and listening to Nicholas Sparks books on audio. Oh, and I've been known to cry at more than one screening of Titanic or Steel Magnolias. I have both masculine and feminine characteristics. I think at this point I've accepted that I'm not masculine or feminine. I'm just me. I'm not girly, I don't wear dresses or make up, but I can do fabulous hair, I can write plays, I can sing, and I can write a love letter that would make an air crash victim crawl out of a full body cast. These are all a part of who I am. Being 5'4 and 141 pounds, I'm a self-confessed little shit. No, I couldn't hold my own in a bar fight, but I'm not sure there's anything I could do to "make myself" more masculine. Masculinity is something either you have or you don't. It's like class. I've seen poor people who have a lot of class in the way they behave. Likewise, I've seen insanely rich people (Anna Nicole comes to mind) that were basically white trash with money. It's all relative to who you are and how you behave. I think if we are all just ourselves, and if we're ok with that, people will find us attractive, personality-wise if not physically. And at this point, I'm not really interested in someone who would only be interested in me for what I could give them sexually.

Chin up! If you have testosterone that's flowing, you have masculinity. It may not be oozing out of every pore of your body, but it's there. Embrace who you are, flaws and all, and you'll find that it's the flaws that make us beautiful and distinctive. Light is, in fact, even more radiant when reflected through glass that's cracked.

[BigSteve6ft3]

Stoneman,

There's certainly nothing wrong with wanting to be more masculine. If being more masculine is what you want, then you should go ahead and strive for that, just like you'd strive to become whatever you want in your career.

Work out. Do "masculine" stuff (whatever that might be -- sports, hobbies, etc.). Strive, but don't beat yourself up. You're certainly in good company in your desire. I'm guessing that most guys, straight or gay, have probably felt that at some point in their lives.

You should read a biography of Teddy Roosevelt ("The Rise of Theodore Roosevelt" by Edmund Morris is a good one). Now there was a guy who started out as a skinny, sickly, physically pathetic young man, but who had an obsession with "manliness" and was driven to overcome his initial lack of it. Through sheer force of will he completely transformed himself: he lifted weights to build up his body, back when that was almost unheard of, took up boxing, and eventually went to the Wild West to further toughen and prove himself. By the time he was in his thirties, he was living his dream and had grown, physically and mentally, into something close to his ideal of masculinity. Confident and aggressive now, he went into politics, and rose rapidly, eventually to the presidency. So it can be done, and a masculinity obsession is not necessarily a bad thing.

Another thing: I see from your profile that you're 22. That's pretty young. There's a good chance you've still got a fair amount of physical growing up to do. I know I did at that age. When I was 22, I was still skinny, didn't have any chest hair to speak of, and couldn't grow anything but a patchy, wispy beard. By the time I was 25, all that had changed. My beard thickened and filled in to where I could grow a full, thick beard (which I did, and kept it 'cause everybody said it looked good on me), my chest got hairy, I muscled up by about 30 pounds, my bone structure thickened, and I grew about half an inch taller as well. Not everybody matures at the same rate, and a lot of guys don't reach full physical adulthood until their mid-twenties. Sure, there are those lucky guys who are full-fledged adult men before they leave high school, but that's not everyone. If you're one of the late bloomers, you're bound to feel a bit un-masculine until you finally "arrive." But give it time. Give that testosterone a chance to do its thing. And by all means, go ahead and do some "masculine" stuff to help it along, if that's what will make you a happier person.

[Stoneman]

BigSteve, I found your response especially encouraging.

Just to clarify guys, I'm not stressing out necessarily about my body, as much as just the aura, the simple mannerisms and mindset of masculinity.

From the men in my family, I'm almost positive, BigSteve, that like you suggested, I'll fill out as I progress into my 20s. My dad tips the scales at around 220 (although some of that is fat) and I tend to favor him. And even now I'm lifting 3 times a week and riding my bike around Scandinavia and all that and that's helping.

And I find it weirdly reassuring that straight men (such as Teddy Roosevelt) worry about this too.

It does come partially from trolling those personal sites with those comments like arpeejay mentioned "no fems, no fats" that lead me to worry that I'm not masculine enough.

BUT, and here's where it gets REAL FUN, I think that even if I found a masculine guy to love me, I would still worry about not being masculine enough, ESPECIALLY if our friends would assume that I was the bottom in the relationship, or stuff like that.

For anyone who's seen or read "The Invention Of Love" by Tom Stoppard, my ideal relationship is like the Greeks that A. E. Housman is obsessed with. Like Achilles and Patroclus, warriors, brothers, equals.

And of course now we can talk about sexual politics and power dynamics and how bottom≠fem/submissive, all of which I KNOW, but other people don't.

It's complicated, I know.

[arpeejay]

Originally Posted by Stoneman

And of course now we can talk about sexual politics and power dynamics and how bottom≠fem/submissive, all of which I KNOW, but other people don't.

It's complicated, I know.

Which is why, when you get down to it, the best approach is to be YOU, love yourself (and, within reason, your mannerisms...), and don't worry about what other people think.

I've often found myself irritated with really butch (well, they think they are...) gay guys who insist they aren't queens or queers or faggots or whatever *because they're really butch.* I recall a passage from a short story in some gay collection I read when I was coming out. The older gay guy says to the uptight, younger gay guy, in effect:

"Darlin', no matter how butch you think you are, THEY (straight people) don't care. You're gay, or you're not gay; they don't make any distinctions between YOU and that nelly drag queen..."

Be proud of who you are and don't put down people who are different.

xoxo

Richard

[dallasmsl]

Just be yourself, that's the best way to be!

[Lifter73]

Originally Posted by arpeejay

Which is why, when you get down to it, the best approach is to be YOU, love yourself (and, within reason, your mannerisms...), and don't worry about what other people think.

I've often found myself irritated with really butch (well, they think they are...) gay guys who insist they aren't queens or queers or faggots or whatever *because they're really butch.* I recall a passage from a short story in some gay collection I read when I was coming out. The older gay guy says to the uptight, younger gay guy, in effect:

"Darlin', no matter how butch you think you are, THEY (straight people) don't care. You're gay, or you're not gay; they don't make any distinctions between YOU and that nelly drag queen..."

Be proud of who you are and don't put down people who are different.

xoxo

Richard

Richard, you said it all......

Good post and so right on! People are going to think what they want to think and say what they want to say. The only thing that matters is to be true to yourself and BE yourself!

That's how I roll.......

D

[BBMikeNJ]

Did you ever see the SNL skit where Alec Baldwin is recording his voice on his office answering machine? When he plays it back to hear it, he sounds real flamboyant and effeminate. It freaks him out, so he records it again. Every time he does it, he sounds more and more effected. He says to a co-worker "I don't sound like that, do I?" The co-worker says "Yeh, that sounds just like you." Alec just about lost it.

It cracked me up because I remember the first time I heard my voice played back on one of those machines. To me, I sounded about as butch as Lady Gaga. No one else seemed to notice.

I wonder, if you had 3 wishes, would one of them be to be more masculine? Or more muscular? I wonder if you could roll 'hugely muscular and masculine' into one wish?

[arpeejay]

Well, ya know, the deal with me is:

I kinda LOOK like a lumberjack (5'10 1/2, 215 lbs., big shoulders, chest, etc., hairy)

But there's no denying it -- I *sound* like a librarian!

(Which is just as well, since I've been one for 25 years...)

Some people can't deal with it. The look is right, the sound isn't right. Or, "you *look* right, why aren't you a total top?" Or they assume that because I have a rather nelly-sounding voice that I must be a total bottom.

I've never quite understood how a bunch of people who are automatically judged because of their sexual orientation are so thoroughly willing to turn around and do the same thing to each other based on their age, race, height, weight, mannerisms, etc. What's up with that?

xoxo

Richard

PS:

Alec Baldwin and I are the same age. I love his hairy chest but I'll keep my own bod, thanks!

[hulkoutlvr]

Mike,

If I had a wisih, it would definitely to be a little more "manned up" than I am. I don't want to be the obnoxious masculine type that throws his weight around and tries to intimidate people, just masculine enough that people don't talk to me as if they're talking to a child. That happens with me a lot, since I stopped growing (at 5'3) when I was twelve. And even when my voice changed, it went from soprano to tenor. To this day, people mistake me for my mother or my sister on the phone all the time, and I sometimes have to remind people that they're talking to a 35 year old man. I love who I am intellectually, but physically I wish I were more of a man, just so other people don't forget it.

Originally Posted by BBMikeNJ

Did you ever see the SNL skit where Alec Baldwin is recording his voice on his office answering machine? When he plays it back to hear it, he sounds real flamboyant and effeminate. It freaks him out, so he records it again. Every time he does it, he sounds more and more effected. He says to a co-worker "I don't sound like that, do I?" The co-worker says "Yeh, that sounds just like you." Alec just about lost it.

It cracked me up because I remember the first time I heard my voice played back on one of those machines. To me, I sounded about as butch as Lady Gaga. No one else seemed to notice.

I wonder, if you had 3 wishes, would one of them be to be more masculine? Or more muscular? I wonder if you could roll 'hugely muscular and masculine' into one wish?

[wolfotehmoon]

Originally Posted by hulkoutlvr

Mike,

If I had a wisih, it would definitely to be a little more "manned up" than I am. I don't want to be the obnoxious masculine type that throws his weight around and tries to intimidate people, just masculine enough that people don't talk to me as if they're talking to a child. That happens with me a lot, since I stopped growing (at 5'3) when I was twelve. And even when my voice changed, it went from soprano to tenor. To this day, people mistake me for my mother or my sister on the phone all the time, and I sometimes have to remind people that they're talking to a 35 year old man. I love who I am intellectually, but physically I wish I were more of a man, just so other people don't forget it.

Oh, yeah, I totally understand. I'm 5'8"ish, and have a moderately low voice, and I STILL get this kind of stuff. I'm one of the oldest people at my job, and I get treated like I'm one of the youngest. It took the rest of the senior workers leaving on break for me to get any sort of responsibility (which I then proceeded to fuck up because of misinformation and my ultra-low self-confidence >>). And part of my job involves getting people's attention by shouting at the top of my lungs; except, you know, everyone ignores me. The 6' college lineman with the bass voice has no trouble though. :/

I just KNOW if I were a handful of inches taller (impossible) or a few dozen pounds heavier (working on that, but if you've seen my journal you know how that's going >>), I'd have no problem (and the confidence thing wouldn't be a problem anymore either).

First impressions are always the most important, and it seems like nowadays "masculinity" and even "maturity" is equated with "physically intimidating."

[BigSteve6ft3]

Originally Posted by wolfotehmoon

First impressions are always the most important, and it seems like nowadays "masculinity" and even "maturity" is equated with "physically intimidating."

Nowadays? Hey, this is ancient and primordial stuff. Those submit-to-the-silver-back- alpha-male-gorilla instincts die hard. It's amazing to me how strong these instincts remain, even in our technological society where physical strength really doesn't count for much anymore. Coming from the other side, as someone who might be described as physically intimidating (finally, after a lot of work), I'm continually surprised at how I can get people's attention and get them to do what I say, without really trying, when other, smaller people can't seem to cut through the noise. I'm not overly aggressive, don't act like a bully, don't threaten or intentionally intimidate, and am generally amiable and easy-going. But people really do seem to respond to the size and bass voice. (Cool!) I remember my skinny days well enough to remember that this wasn't always the case. Sure, I've earned a degree of professional respect and reputation in my job, but not everyone who responds this way knows who I am or what my reputation is. So it's gotta be the muscles. It seems that looking like you could kick the butt of anyone else in the room (even if you'd never dream of doing it) carries its own kind of weight, even if it's totally irrational.

[DaBigGuy1]

Originally Posted by BigSteve6ft3

Nowadays? Hey, this is ancient and primordial stuff. Those submit-to-the-silver-back- alpha-male-gorilla instincts die hard. It's amazing to me how strong these instincts remain, even in our technological society where physical strength really doesn't count for much anymore. Coming from the other side, as someone who might be described as physically intimidating (finally, after a lot of work), I'm continually surprised at how I can get people's attention and get them to do what I say, without really trying, when other, smaller people can't seem to cut through the noise. I'm not overly aggressive, don't act like a bully, don't threaten or intentionally intimidate, and am generally amiable and easy-going. But people really do seem to respond to the size and bass voice. (Cool!) I remember my skinny days well enough to remember that this wasn't always the case. Sure, I've earned a degree of professional respect and reputation in my job, but not everyone who responds this way knows who I am or what my reputation is. So it's gotta be the muscles. It seems that looking like you could kick the butt of anyone else in the room (even if you'd never dream of doing it) carries its own kind of weight, even if it's totally irrational.

So so true!

There truly is something about it, like a primordial instinct about it all.

I can remember when I was pretty much skin and bones at college age, and I prided myself on being relatively intelligent and able to stand my ground on just about any conversation. However, it seemed as if I was always scampering around trying to be heard and acknowledged. Fast forward to today, and at 260 pounds it seems as if there are times when I just walk into a room and there is a pause...I'm not bragging at all, but it is sometimes noticeable. And when I say something it is like a hush fills the room as if to say "look, he is HUGE and he can actually speak!". And there is a command of attention. I like it, don't get me wrong, but I would have also liked it when I was only 125 pounds.

As far as masculinity... well, I do not judge, all I know is that I am not cocky as much as just self-assured, and as far as masculine, I've been told that I am all man, but whatever......I am just me!

Ron III---III

[arpeejay]

Originally Posted by BigSteve6ft3

So it's gotta be the muscles. It seems that looking like you could kick the butt of anyone else in the room (even if you'd never dream of doing it) carries its own kind of weight, even if it's totally irrational.

As usual:

Pix, dammit, pix!

xoxo

Richard

[TheMM]

For me personally, I'm not masculine....it's more like "midwestern."

And I do mean that in the fact that I live in the midwest and that I'm in the "middle" in terms of looks, and body size.

Despite that, folks back in HS knew me incredibly well, because of who I was, not what I did or looked like. (Now obviously, I would have enjoyed looking better.)

My point is, often times people can and do remember you for how you treat them, not how you looked. Don't try and be someone you're not.

[Mdlftr]

Originally Posted by BigSteve6ft3

....I'm continually surprised at how I can get people's attention and get them to do what I say, without really trying, when other, smaller people can't seem to cut through the noise.

.... But people really do seem to respond to the size and bass voice. (Cool!)

I remember my skinny days well enough to remember that this wasn't always the case.

..........Sure, I've earned a degree of professional respect and reputation in my job, but not everyone who responds this way knows who I am or what my reputation is.

..............So it's gotta be the muscles. It seems that looking like you could kick the butt of anyone else in the room (even if you'd never dream of doing it) carries its own kind of weight, even if it's totally irrational.

GREAT post! Each point you've made is salient and adds up, except the conclusion. I don't think it's "just" the muscles, although they really help!

BigSteve63, you've developed PRESENCE, which is what allows you to stand out (literally and figuratively) when you enter a room.

That's compounded of equal parts imposing physicality AND manner, as well as accomplishments.

That's what we all find in life. We're (usually) much more developed as a person at 50 than we were at 25!

My point is, work on being the best "you" you can be, and you'll develop your own presence, Stoneman! And I promise you, it WILL be "good enough"!

Mdlftr

[hulkoutlvr]

Great words, BigSteve and DaBigGuy!

It's awesome that although you guys are big and strong, you haven't forgotten what it's like on this side of the bodybuilding fence. That makes us little guys feel great! Not as great as when you flex for us, lol, but great nonetheless.

Anyone have special plans for the holiday weekend?

[Speck35]

As a bisexual, I see beauty in both large, strong men and those who are delicate and feminine. There's nothing wrong with not being ideally masculine. If every man was like that, it would get boring.

Ironically, I only really like more feminine women, but go figure.

[gogr2]

Originally Posted by Speck35

Ironically, I only really like more feminine women, but go figure.

Not as odd as you think... I too prefer HUGE muscled men, but really enjoy feminine/hourglass shaped women... especially if they are red heads.

[Stoneman]

Well, all these posts are real interesting. I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks about this.

Now I just can't wait to be older, lol. How often do you hear a gay man say that.