friends that make life complicated

[ethernet_jock]

Well... I thought I would never end up posting a message like this on this forum... but here it is. This has been an odd week for me and I'm seeking a little experienced guidance.

I have this friend (I know, it always starts out like this, but this time it's true). I've known him for almost 12 years and we've been close friends for about the last 5. So close that people mistake us for brothers even tho we don't look ANYTHING alike just because of the way we fight and get along.

So anyway - let's call him John.

John knows about my bisexuality and the experimentation I've done in the past, he's always been totally cool about it just occasionally ribbing me with one gay comment or another. He also had always been completely substantial in his "I'm straight, but I don't care what you are" stance. Completely.... until about a week ago today. He also knows that I've basically given up that life for the one of more dedication to the love of my wife and my kid(s) despite my continued desire for hot guys and muscle. He's engaged to a very nice young lady and my wife and her hang out all the time - yes - we live in the same area - I've known him since High School. The only kind of gay thing that he ever did was when he was 13 and experimented a bit orally with another guy - after that he was insistant that he was fully straight. I have wondered a few times about him when he's made a remark about the size of my arms or other muscular features on my body, but I just dismissed it as the way he thinks and behaves (he's a slightly different type of person.... very very honest).

So John IMs me out of the blue last week - well.... we have IM conversations all the time during the day at work so I guess it wasn't totally "out of the blue". He's a civil engineer so it's mostly a desk job. But after a few minutes of "normal" conversation he gets into this very serious mood and starts telling me something like...

You know, I think I'm only 99.9% straight. (you know engineers, always must quantify).

me: why? what happened to the last 0.1%?

So anyway - through some prodding and honest moments... he reveals to me this token: "It seems like whenever I'm around you... I'm having thoughts that aren't exactly straight." Eventually after some more prodding he gives me this "you're my 0.1%" and "you've got the whole package: body, mind, personality, and dick".

Obviously VERY flattered but confused I continue the conversation into more detail about desires and interests and learn what about me that he likes the most and etc... ANYHOW, this is all very strange because right up to this moment we'd had a completely "brotherly" friendship type of arrangement.

Now ever since, every conversation we have (in private) includes sexual innuendo and desire about me. He's acting like a TOTAL bottom and wants me in the worst way (it seems). I agreed to allow him to experiment with his feelings with me sometime when we could be private and discrete and now it's like he's dreaming constantly about me. It's flattering, but so uncomfortable. I also admitted to him that I find him somewhat attractive at times but have never remarked so because of his "100% straight" stance. Well of course I do, he's a good looking guy.

aside - "John" - 28 - 5'10", 200lbs, blonde and balding - Stocky, thick, bulky build. He as the whole pale-skinned russian/serbian thing going. A far greater martial arts expert than I am (Aikido and other stuff) and not really lean but definitely built like a little brick shithouse. I've been able to take him down in the past sparring and wrestling but only because I think he lets his fear of my size dominate his higher skill..... he was not letting me win.... but I never can believe it when I did.

So anyway. Now I'm stuck in an odd situation. I don't want to lose my best friend and I REALLY don't want to lose my wife or family. Do I go on and play with him like my dick tells me it wants to do? Do I tell him that we just can't do this? Do I lose a best friend one way or another?

Damn... you'd think by the time I'm 28 I'd have this figured out. I thought I did... and then it has to get weird. I mean - all the other guys I ever screwed around with meant absolutely nothing to me personally. There's only 1 guy out of the 35+ I played with that I still even talk to.

So what's the advice guys? Anyone ever been in a similar seat? My mind is filled with fears of collapsing relationships while also being filled with sexual fantasies I've never had before related to this person.

Thanks for anything!

[brent]

My advice might not be the best, and I have no formal training, but I believe that you marriage, and you children's future need to take precedence over a friend. Not matter how good of a friend he is. You have made a promise to God, in front of both of your families, and brought kids onto this planet. I'm not a hugely religious person in general, but I think you should do whatever you can to keep promises. If he truly is a good friend, he should understand, but there might be a short-term falling out.

Good Luck.

[glammaman2000]

...the tension could just build&build until there's an ugly scene in the supermarket.If you DO boff him;there's still the chance of an ugly scene in the supermarket.I suggest Fresh Direct.There is also a chance that doing it will relieve the tension;making you closer friends with a secret;&"what were we thinking?"memories&laughs for the future.But I think the odds are against it.

[Wynfrith]

I have to agree with Brent. I don't think that it will do anything to strengthen your relationship with him. If he is a real friend, he'll understand that while desire is there, you are otherwise committed. If he doesn't understand that, or refuses to understand that, then perhaps it is best to move on, and move away, and hopefully reconnect in the future when the sexual tension has died off.

The other danger is just straight playing with fire. You have a wife and child, soon to be plural. I know that you said that you would be discrete and safe, but the danger is still in getting found out. What if he tells his soon to be wife, and then she tells yours? Bad result. What if your wife finds out, tells her, she confronts him, and their marriage is off? Bad result.

It's not worth the risk.

Wyn.

[omelissokomos]

Originally Posted by ethernet_jock

Do I go on and play with him like my dick tells me it wants to do?

No. You're smarter than your dick.

Do I tell him that we just can't do this?

Yes. You have a good thing going with your family.

Do I lose a best friend one way or another?

Maybe, but that's the risk you're going to have to take.

So far nothing physical has happened. Keep it that way.

[Lucas88]

EJ,
I'm not on line that much with you guys and I feel a little like I'm on the fringes, if that, of this group but this important enough for me to weigh in and I hope I don't overstep.

Two points I want to make:
1) You made a vow to your wife. Some people think cheating is no big deal if no one gets hurt (i.e., if you can successfully lie to your wife for the rest of your life or marriage, no harm no foul), but bottom line, you can't rationalize your way out of it: cheating is cheating and someone will very likely get hurt. Even if your wife forgives you, she will never look at you the same way again...trust is hard if not impossible to rebuild without scars. Do you really want to do that to her and yourself?
2) Once you have sex with someone, the relationship changes. Things won't be like they've always been between you and your buddy. You will treat each other differently...maybe not "better" or "worse" than you do now but, intimacy on that level changes the dynamics of the relationship and it will never be the same.

You know in your heart right from wrong...follow your heart. Don't let his premarital jitters and sudden interest in "experimenting" before he ties the knot create problems you, your wife, and your children will have to live with.

Lucas

[brent]

Originally Posted by omelissokomos

No. You're smarter than your dick.
...
So far nothing physical has happened. Keep it that way.

I really have to agree with O on these points.

BTW, I never thought I'd try to talk someone out of homo sex... This is a personal first, and should be recorded somewhere!

[wbhunk]

Agreed....wish there were an easier answer, but it's like my best (also gay) friend told me...."Why spoil a great friendship with sex?" I also believe Lucas is right....this sudden change of interest more than likely has to do with the impending nuptials.

The other thing that you need to watch though, EJ, is that if he wants to experiment, he's going to experiment, whether he does it with you or with someone else. If it's with someone else, PLEASE do your best to make sure he uses protection.

[ethernet_jock]

damn - you guys are awesome.

Thank you!

You're right - you're all right... I know what's right and wrong and I've learned already from my mistakes in the past on this very subject. The fact that it's my friend instead of a random hook-up makes no difference in the cheating aspect. He's been talking to me lately a lot as well about women who keep coming onto him too! When I step outside of my perspective and look at it (something I needed all your help to do) I realize that you're absolutely right.... it's a pre-wedding thing. I've been married for almost 9 years now so I forgot how that feels. He's 28 (my age) and beginning to feel that his life is slipping away.... signing a marriage doc after being single and free for that long probably is starting to feel a bit like a prison sentence.

I'm going to have to have a "I love you like a brother man but we can't do this, no matter how much we want to" discussion with him. If he freaks, he freaks.... I've known him for a long time and I think if I put it in the right terms - he'll get it. I think he'll be a bit shocked that I would take the "high road" because I've always been the one in the past who fell into the traps of addiction, crime, anger/violence, etc... and he always was the one who walked the straight and narrow and helped ME through. Well - I've done a lot of growing - and much of it is thanks to you guys. It's time for things to turn around a little.

Thanks again guys, you're all the best friends a guy could ask for - particularly online.

I suggest Fresh Direct

LMFAO - glam, you never fail to crack me up man. Nothing wrong with a dose of levity in a serious situation... nothing at all.


Omo - Yes, thank you, I would like to think that I'm smarter than my dick. I just have to distract myself from the lust and flattery aspect. Flattery is SO hard to put down when guys like us try so hard to earn it.


Lucas - thank you for voicing in!! I've missed you for the last few months but I know how life takes us away from these things from time to time. You've always had one of the finest voices of reason and intelligence and I would never ask you not to include an opinion. Not to mention that you're WAY bigger than me and I would never dare challenge you *scary* 1.) You're right. It was hard enough when she found out that I kept my sexuality from her.... it took us a long time to get over that. If I did this, it would never work out the same again. 2.) Again you're right, I don't think things between "john" and I will ever be the same again anyway but if we got "intimate" with eachother it would change TOO much. Sitting next to him at a football game would (and probably will) suddenly feel entirely different.

interesting thought comes to mind about experimentation. Do you think it would be proactive of me to try to hook him up with someone whom I know to have safe and clean practices? Or would I be overstepping my best friend bounds? I was thinking it might be a way to keep him close and help him through it instead of just dumping him. He insists that I'm the only person (male) who turns him on but I know that can't be true - it's just impossible. There are plenty of big/bulky/muscular guys like me out there that I'm sure get his attention more than he would ever admit and I'm sure that it's all about admitting.

BTW, I never thought I'd try to talk someone out of homo sex... This is a personal first, and should be recorded somewhere!

*writes this down in his blackmail brent book* hahahaha! Yeah - I can imagine that usually the desire would be to push someone to test themselves and be open to their own feelings. I have already been there, done that, enough to satisfy myself. So this is different... you're protecting me as a friend and my best interests and I appreciate that GREATLY. That's why I asked you guys!


wbh - you're right too. He's a smart guy but it's funny what lust can do to your sensibility. Safe sex all the way. Thank you!

--- again - thanks guys for EVERYTHING!!

-Chris

[arpeejay]

I had a (somewhat) similar experience after I came out. A co-worker, who was also married with kids, started flirting with me fairly routinely when we were alone. I called him on it and he allowed that he was "curious." I pointed out that much as I liked him and sympathized with his curiosity, the fact is that there wasn't a single thing I could do about it -- because his WIFE was also a co-worker.

"It just wouldn't work," I pointed out.

And I think that's the thing to keep in mind, darlin', regardless of what "vows" you have taken. From a purely practical point of view, it's apt to end in disaster. He's your friend, she's your wife's friend, and if anyone gets bent out of shape there's gonna be a whole lotta side-taking and hurt feelings.

If he needs to experiment, to make sure he's really, really straight, fine and dandy, but that's something he needs to do with someone other than you. He's really attracted to you, then he's definitely capable of being really attracted to some other guy; the idea that "you're the only one" is bogus (no matter how flattering it might be...)

And if this interest on John's part has made it clear that you want to indulge (what I call) your bisexual bone, you first need to talk to your wife about the fact that sexual exclusivity isn't working for you. It could be that she's fine with that or it could be a deal breaker. Don't assume that you know which it would be without asking first.

Muchas smoochas...


Richard

[brent]

Originally Posted by arpeejay

...
He's really attracted to you, then he's definitely capable of being really attracted to some other guy; the idea that "you're the only one" is bogus (no matter how flattering it might be...)
...

I'm going to respectfully disagree with Richard on this one. He might be right, in fact since he's been married to a woman, he's be much more knowledgeable than me on this. However, I think that a big part of attraction is mental. He might only be attracted to you because he knows you are a great guy and very smart. Another beefy guy might do it for him, but I doubt it. I think it'd take years for him to get comfortable with the new guy, and he doesn't have that before he marries.

I also don't think that this will even be an issue in the long term. Soon this will be a distant memory, one way or the other. I bet after he gets married, and realizes it doesn't dramatically change your whole life (you are still the same people- just with rings on) this will blow over. By the next football season (whenever that is) you two will go to the games together, and not even think about this.

Just don't let his whim wreck everyone's marriage.

Oh, if you are planning on blackmailing me, please take a number...

[arpeejay]

I'm not entirely sure what we're disagreeing about inasmuch as I've said, "uh uh, NOT a good idea..."

As for the question of "he might only be attracted to you because he knows you are a great guy," it's possible BUT:

I really have chatted with upwards of a thousand gaydads and it is VERY common for them to say "I couldn't deal with the possibility of being gay until I fell in love with Tom / Dick / Harry / Brent / Scott / Fred." It's like the "falling in love with" part of it somehow makes it OK, whereas just saying "I'm into guys" doesn't cut it.

The thing is, almost ALWAYS the guys they fall in love with are transition figures and within a couple of years someone else is in their lives because, when you get right down to it, they're "into guys."

So, yes, it's very likely completely and totally true that your friend's attraction is strongly reinforced by your friendship but I'm pretty skeptical of the idea that the *capacity* for that attraction didn't already exist outside the context of your friendship.

And, yes, I could easily be wrong (about what's really going on inside friend's head.) I really do NOT chat that often with the supposedly vast community of bisexual chameleons who opt for ostensible heterosexuality.

One thing I'm sure of, though, and I'll say it again: Acting on his attraction to you could very easily have negative consequences for everyone involved.

Muchas smoochas...

Richard

Originally Posted by brent

I'm going to respectfully disagree with Richard on this one. He might be right, in fact since he's been married to a woman, he's be much more knowledgeable than me on this. However, I think that a big part of attraction is mental. He might only be attracted to you because he knows you are a great guy and very smart. Another beefy guy might do it for him, but I doubt it. I think it'd take years for him to get comfortable with the new guy, and he doesn't have that before he marries.

I also don't think that this will even be an issue in the long term. Soon this will be a distant memory, one way or the other. I bet after he gets married, and realizes it doesn't dramatically change your whole life (you are still the same people- just with rings on) this will blow over. By the next football season (whenever that is) you two will go to the games together, and not even think about this.

Just don't let his whim wreck everyone's marriage.

Oh, if you are planning on blackmailing me, please take a number...

[glammaman2000]

...here's the serious stuff.(but,first;love the new avatar)I don't know you that well,but I'd bet on this:if you boffed this guy,at some point,you'd have to tell your wife.&she'd freak.Dealing with your abstract attractions is one thing.Seeing them in the flesh is a whole different thing.(Out gay guys with"accepting"families have to deal with this,too)The vow"forsaking all others"doesn't specify who the"others"are.I will take exception with some other opinions,here.A hot bod is one thing.A"nice,safe"guy with a hot bod is irresistable.Your friend didn't take a name out of a hat.(Who knew that Denver-ish was such a Peyton Place?)

[brent]

Originally Posted by arpeejay

I'm not entirely sure what we're disagreeing about inasmuch as I've said, "uh uh, NOT a good idea..."
...
I really have chatted with upwards of a thousand gaydads and it is VERY common for them to say "I couldn't deal with the possibility of being gay until I fell in love with Tom / Dick / Harry / Brent / Scott / Fred." It's like the "falling in love with" part of it somehow makes it OK, whereas just saying "I'm into guys" doesn't cut it.
...

I didn't think of a transitional guy scenario at all. That's why I put the disclaimers at the beginning. However, I'm not sure he want's to transition, as opposed to try something once. In the end, the point is moot, because we all seem to agree that if Chris were to fool around, chances are it wouldn't have a happy ending. You make some very good points Richard, and have a much better background than me in this area.

[ethernet_jock]

hahah... you guys are ALL wonderful... thank you.

Brent/RPJ - I honestly don't think his attraction is transitional. He has a short history dating back to the age of 13 and he's always made questionable passes at me. I've never once heard him say anything about any other guy being attractive but I'm pretty confident that it's only because of his fear of the gay label. Whether or not this attraction is impactive to his relationship with his fiancee, I think not, and in that... you're right about the transitional part. He is clearly - to me - acting out on his hidden desires in a transitional fit of loss of self control and marriage worries. He definitely loves his fiancee, she's a great woman and they're great to eachother... I don't have any fear for their long-term relationship. I also have no doubt that he has real homosexual desires too. Regardless I have most definitely decided not to go forward with allowing the intimacy. He and I had a conversation about it yesterday and I felt that he began to agree with me but will need a bit more convincing. Everything with him takes a lot of convincing...

Glam - thanks! I actually really debated about putting that new avatar online because my arms aren't flexed at all and don't look all that impressive to me.... that's Robert and I looking at ducks at a nearby park a few weeks ago... I felt it was time for an update. My wife doens't like it because it doesn't show my face so maybe I'll have a new one in a couple more weeks.

You're also right (as well as brent) about the vows of marriage. Sacred is sacred, if you believe in the strength of marriage and love then you must believe in the vows. So must I.... thank you.

Incidentally - they don't call Denver the "queen city of the plains" for nothin! We definitely have a significant gay population and some VERY good-looking guys around here.

Thanks again everyone!

*hugs*