A modest proposal from a "defensive" steroid user.

[schwermarko]

I know I don't post much, and the moderators are free to take or leave this suggestion, but would it be possible to restrict the >Steroids part of the forum to PRO steroid use posts.

I think that may be one of the reasons this area is so dead is that it's full of more of the same shit that I deal with from every other part of society.

[Mdlftr]

O.k., you raised the issue, let's see you defend it.

What ARE the "pros" of steroid use that outweigh
1. Illegality and possibility of prosecution for illegal possession of a controlled substance (Roger Clemons and his current prosecution for lying under oath to Congress sound familiar?)

2. The health risks: high blood pressure with attendant risk of stroke and kidney failure.

3. The zits and the bitch tits
4. The "alleged" 'roid rage. (I put this in quotation marks since it has so many hyped claims to it. Any muscular man who raises his voice above a whisper is accused of 'roid rage, so that is too subjective to count here.)

[Aielyn]

Originally Posted by schwermarko

I know I don't post much, and the moderators are free to take or leave this suggestion, but would it be possible to restrict the >Steroids part of the forum to PRO steroid use posts.

I think that may be one of the reasons this area is so dead is that it's full of more of the same shit that I deal with from every other part of society.

While I understand your frustration, I think it is a bad idea to restrict it in such a manner.

The fact of the matter is that there are two sides to the issue, and to restrict information to only the side you're in favour of would be no better than getting your information from Fox News (or, really, almost any other News Corp subsidiary news source).

If you want a discussion around the pros of steroid use, then the easiest way to do so is to start with a post demonstrating your awareness of the cons, in order to get them "out of the way" before discussing the pros.

To Mdlftr - I'm against steroid use (in fact, I'm the ultimate in "natural bodybuilder" attitude - I won't even use whey powder, because it's chemically extracted from milk), but even I can provide counterarguments to your points.

1. Steroids aren't illegal everywhere, only in some countries (for instance, in Mexico, they're legal). Furthermore, the fact that something is illegal isn't a strong reason not to do it - the *reason why* it's illegal might be a strong reason not to do it, but its illegality itself is merely a consideration (which is why, if they passed a law banning sex, the right response would be to ignore that law). And for the record, prosecution for "lying under oath" is not the same as prosecution for usage of steroids.

2. Everything in life has health risks. It's all a matter of degrees, and your body's personal reactions. Increased risk of <insert problem here> does not equate to guarantee of <insert same problem here, too>. Also note that it is possible for a person to have low blood pressure, and thus steroid use may actually normalise their bp.

3. Zits and gynecomastia? A few blemishes and a bit of fatty development around the nipples isn't likely to be of great concern to someone interested in steroids. Not to mention, these are also instances of "increased probability".

4. Some people are actually quite quiet and calm by nature - a little "roid rage" would probably make them a little healthier, so long as they were cautious. More generally, dose size is likely to be a big factor in the development of such psychiatric effects, so moderation of usage would likely avoid the worst of it. Furthermore, it is possible that the correlation between aggression and steroid usage works in the reverse direction - those more prone to aggressive behaviour are more likely to use steroids (and the image of steroids as causing "roid rage" would likely make such people feel more free to act out on their aggression), and thus the steroids may not be the cause.

Having factored these in, I am sure that there are people out there who would consider the muscle growth to be a stronger pro than all of the cons put together. Others, like myself, would consider the pros to be far outweighed by the cons. In the end, it's not schwermarko's job to convince you that there are pros to steroid usage, or that they outweigh the cons.

In short, your attitude is likely precisely the problem that annoys schwermarko and others like him - rather than simply offering the cons as things to consider, you challenge the idea of the pros outweighing the cons. And such attitudes tend to derail reasonable discussion on the topic, which is precisely what schwermarko is complaining about. That he's suggesting an extreme overcompensation by banning discussion of the negatives only shows how such derailments tend to affect the discussions.

[CelticMuscle]

As we are having a discussion, could I ask the following question:

"If, as you believe, there should be more discussion on the topic, what would be your thoughts on having a medical professional scrutineer your comments and then respond highlighting any (if indeed there are) health concerns?"

[Mdlftr]

Originally Posted by Aielyn

To Mdlftr - I'm against steroid use (in fact, I'm the ultimate in "natural bodybuilder" attitude - I won't even use whey powder, because it's chemically extracted from milk), but even I can provide counterarguments to your points.

Aielyn,
That's great. I appreciate the response. I was putting out typical "Con" arguments to steroid use to see what Schwermarko would say.

I'm not disputing any of your responses. I would probably make them myself.

My question is: After all the back and forth, what is it about using steroids that motivates people?

1. Because they work? (Well D'oh!) I assume they work. Is it worth it? Or did people do steroids because of other reasons: peer pressure say, or feeling a need to be competitive in a sport or (fill in the blank)?

A famous bodybuilder, whose name escapes me, once said, "Asking a pro if they use steroids is like asking a guy if he masturbates. The answer is obvious and it's embarassing to admit it!"

So, let me ask the question another way: "Why do you like to masturbate? What is it about maturbation that makes it worthwhile?"

After all, we "KNOW" [WARNING, JOKE about to commence}
1. It grows hair on your palms
2. It lowers your I.Q.
3. "Nice" boys don't do that -- they save sex until they're married - to a woman - in church -- in the sight of God (who sees everything you do) and mankind
4. Nice girls won't go with boys who do it.
5. It's a SIN and you're going to go to HELL for doing it! Now get to confession!! NOW!!
[END OF JOKE. THIS HAS BEEN A JOKE. WARNING: HUMOR IN PROCESS}

[Aielyn]

Originally Posted by Mdlftr

Aielyn,
That's great. I appreciate the response. I was putting out typical "Con" arguments to steroid use to see what Schwermarko would say.

If that was your intention, then I suspect that you worded your post poorly, as it does read like someone going "Oh really? You think there are positives to steroid use? Well then, prove it!" It sounded confrontational, rather than like you were just trying to stimulate some conversation.


Anyway, I would find it interesting to hear the perspective of someone who is openly (at least on this forum) in favour of steroid usage. There are undoubtedly downsides to steroid usage, and for me, as I said, they far outweigh any upside, but clearly some do consider the upsides to be stronger.

[Mdlftr]

Originally Posted by Aielyn

If that was your intention, then I suspect that you worded your post poorly, as it does read like someone going "Oh really? You think there are positives to steroid use? Well then, prove it!" It sounded confrontational, rather than like you were just trying to stimulate some conversation..

It WAS confrontational. He asks for the moderators to "take it or leave it" after indentifying himself as a "defensive" steroid user.

O.k. then, if you think steroids usage for bodybuilding is justifiable, let's hear your reasons. If that's too harsh a tone (I doubt it) then I guess we don't get the benefit of the comments.

Point being, people put themselves out in chat spaces like this and make statements which they admit are contrary to many other points of view. O.k., discuss your contrary point of view. If that's too confrontational, then everyone else's opinions either scared you away or you don't believe in your own statement. Back it up. I may not agree with you, but I'm interested in what you have to say.

[/QUOTE]
Anyway, I would find it interesting to hear the perspective of someone who is openly (at least on this forum) in favour of steroid usage. There are undoubtedly downsides to steroid usage, and for me, as I said, they far outweigh any upside, but clearly some do consider the upsides to be stronger.[/QUOTE]

My sentiments exactly.

[Bear89]

You see what happened to this thread? This is why the guy made the proposal in the first place...

[schwermarko]

Thank you Bear89, that is precisely what I meant.

I did not intend to make the entire forum free of criticisms of anabolic steroid use. I would like to point out that it happens in every part of the forum. It would however be nice to have some protected space where my choices about my own body are respected.

I would also not dream of suggesting that someone with actual scientific data about the toxicity of a specific drug not share that information. The big tip off here is when the post is about "steroids" instead of about halo, test, tren, etc. There is a broad spectrum of risk involved, there are steroids and ancillary drugs that I will not take because I feel that the risks of using them outweigh the benefits. That, however is a choice that I believe needs to be left to the individual.

As to the objection that this is illegal, there are a great many things that where illegal until those laws were shown to be the state overstepping the bounds of liberty. I believe that using the power of the state to enforce the will of the many on the few in a matter that is so personal is WRONG. History has shown us that sometimes it is the duty of the citizen to resist the law. This is the point of having a democratic republic, our legislature can make things illegal our courts can make them legal again, but neither of them can make something become evil on their say so.

I had intended the quotes around the word defensive in jest. I have seen the criticism several times here when someone has dared to defend the practice.

So far as bodybuilding is concerned I could care less what the rules for your sport are I powerlift. I find it amazing to see praise of the effect and dirision of the practice from the same people, however.

Comming off of my soap box and sharing my feelings...

I have been obsessed with muscle growth for some time. I am what I believe to be a minority in this circle as I am a heterosexual with a subjective growth fettish. (I fanticise about myself growing) I have been becoming more and more serious about making at least some of it a reality for five years, the start of this was to move out of working out alone and break my fear of working out in public. I went whole hog and picked a hardcore gym, I could see people around me acheiving what I wanted, and it seemed clear how that was being done. The longer I observed the clearer it was that the use of anabolics is commonplace and that the relative rate of reported morbidity versus my observation of how common usage could only mean that complications where relatively rare.

Likewise with actual cases of a user being incarcerated. It seemed that the only way people where caught was either dealing, or letting a wife or girlfriend know about your use and cheating on them and then having them turn you in as revenge.

The bit that realy got me was having seen my third potentially fatal car or motorcycle crash on my way to work, It really made me reevaluate what I see as being risky behavior.

[THE BODYBUILDING GIANT]

all things are bad if u abuse it there are pros and cons to everything in life dont see point in talking about it ive been on many forums same shit different day
take them live or die dont take them live or die

[schwermarko]

To clarify, I didn't mean I wanted to try to convince other people to use-- I just wanted to have a place where I can say things like, "I'm five weeks into a cycle and I'm so horny I'm ready to pull my own fucking cock off!" without someone comming down on me for what I do.

(BTW that is actually the case, at present)

[Mdlftr]

Originally Posted by schwermarko

To clarify, I didn't mean I wanted to try to convince other people to use-- I just wanted to have a place where I can say things like, "I'm five weeks into a cycle and I'm so horny I'm ready to pull my own fucking cock off!" without someone comming down on me for what I do.

(BTW that is actually the case, at present)

Schwermarko,
THIS is what I'm talking about. I'm looking to read supporting arguments in favor of steroid use, from someone who allegedly has actual experience. Rather than coming down on a slam about the alleged "morality" or "immorality" of steroid use, what does it ACTUALLY do for people? Why would people take them? It seems, anecdotally and in the scientific literature, that steroids DO promote the growth and retention of muscle bulk and strength, which seem like a good thing. Separating out the ill effects documented in every media horror story from using unknown substances in huge quantities, what do known steroids do?

BTW I use the terms "allegedly" and "for the sake of argument" because, like it or not, steroid use without without a medical prescription can be illegal and I would NOT want to presume that anyone here is engaging in any illegal behavior.

Having said that, more to the point: I have heard that one of the benefits of steroid use is that it is reported that when used, along with a strenuous exercise program, the steroids have a benefit of either minimizing post-workout soreness and/or promoting faster healing and subsequent muscle growth. As someone who is over 40 and who lifts, I often find that I am fatigued for several days after strenuous lifting. If I persist in working the same bodypart too soon (before the soreness wears off) I find that I don't grow bigger, even though I'm trying to. My understanding is that steroids Could or might ameliorate this post workout soreness. IF that is true, that could be a beneficial effect of steroids.

I'm aware of the medical benefits of steroids in individuals with wasting conditions such as AIDS who have benefitted from medically prescribed steroids. I further understand that many of the people on these medically prescribed steroid regimens have gained significant muscle mass and strength and have lived for years without steroid complications (no bitch tits, no roid rage, no out of control agression). A major point in their favor is that they are taking prescribed steroids under a physician's supervision.

I speculate as to whether OTHER populations than AIDS patients could benefit from a prescribed regimen of steroids without suffering all the alleged horrible side effects.


re

[schwermarko]

In your case it might do to have your testosterone and growth hormone levels evaluated, both age and extensive training can lower them. It can be a cause of lack of progress and abnormally long recovery time.

A lot of how this works depends on the doctor and patient, but generally goal is to bring the levels to the high end of the medical establisments view of normal range. A bit like tuning a piano with a sledge hammer, but I know a fair few HRT patients who are quite happy with it.

The effect I have noticed is not a reduction in pain, but of quicker and more complete recovery between workouts. Then again, I didn't mind the pain so much, but I was able to work myself to the point where I would get the shakes later in the night, it felt as though I had a fever sometimes.

So far as reducing pain, odd as this may sound, a lot of guys will use viagra-- the vasodilation effect isn't restricted to the penis, and the increased blood flow seems to ameliorate DOMS.

[Mdlftr]

Originally Posted by schwermarko

In your case it might do to have your testosterone and growth hormone levels evaluated, both age and extensive training can lower them. It can be a cause of lack of progress and abnormally long recovery time.

It's funny you should bring this up. I had a similar conversation with someone from the Forum on another string about this very topic. He was very specific about what sort of blood tests were necessary in order to measure free testosterone levels, etc. I took the notes to my doctor, who ran the tests, and I'm actually going to start on a regimen of hormone replacement/supplementation shortly.

Interesting comments, here! Thanks for the perspective! Appreciate the insights!


Mdlftr

[raven79]

I think what is interesting is that steroids may actually be beneficial when we get older. We don't need them when we are younger because the hormones are already raging. So on top of what we already produce, you are adding that extra boost which causes the body to overcompensate and create a whole stack of problems.

[thick]

My first post here. I just joined. I have been on several cycles of roids. there are some issues to which one must address.
Firstly. a alot of roids can cause sexual dysfunctionality of the dick. IE erectile dysfunction. some roids when built up in the system can cause lack of sex drive.
Secondly, looks like many members here are in their 20's and 30's. In that age bracket you really dont need much more that a small shot of test e a week.
I am 46 years old. yeah an old geezer and let me tell you, without deca, and tren, and test (not all at once) and PCT and ED pills I would not be able to grow muscle.
So, if you do your homework, and there are many sites that cater to roid users where you can research, and you come up with a "gentle cycle" plan that consists of all elements Bulk, cut, PCT, estrogen blockers, and test promoters, it can be a safe and effective way to get the body you want.
If you half ass your cycle you can end up totally dependent on test for the rest of your life cause your balls wont work.
Its all about educating yourself to the dangers, having the correct game plan, and not overdoing it.
Some guys will always be bigger than you. Its also about knowing where your limits are and not convincing yourself that roids will overcome your genetic build.
and no amount of roid gear will make you grow if you are not following a strict diet and working out often

[randomchat]

I've done a few cycles in my time and i have found the best cycle for me was a 12 week cycle
Tren-ace and and 4 weeks dianabol at the start to boost you up as injectables take two to three weeks to get in ur system and diet is key it's something alot of newbies get wrong and blame the gear or it might be that there not training enough to gain that size... the body can only take in about 30g of protein at one time so be wise with your shakes....eat plenty of lean meats steak, chicken ect i like to train 3 days rest one then train two training all body parts everyday for atleast 40 to an hour is enough daily you will see gains this way i do!