Homosexuality, Philosophy, Politics, & Religion

[JeffXeno]

I spent a lot of time this morning responding to a post in the Muscle Growth Media thread, and the topic was about liberals and progressive are supposedly oppressing and discriminating against religious conservatives. I guess it should not surprise me that such a topic would come up on this type of message board since it seems a majority of members here are gay men with a muscle fetish. The thing is, while I was compelled to post a reply, that really wasn't the correct thread in which to have that discussion.

As such, I have created this thread so that those who wish to continue this topic may have a place for their discussion which doesn't clutter the media thread with off-topic posts. Here is my complete post from this morning:

--------------------------------

grubby41, are you kidding me? Seriously, are you kidding?

[COLOR=RoyalBlue]grubby41:[/COLOR]

[COLOR=RoyalBlue]Permissible Bigotry?[/COLOR]

[COLOR=RoyalBlue]You know, it is really rather perplexing to me how the "liberals" and the "progressives" feel justified - and even comfortable - in casting aspersions on the "religious right". Can you imagine the reaction of these same people if "religious right" was replaced with the words "Jew" or "Muslim"? Bigotry in any form ought not to be considered acceptable in any forum, especially when the perpetrators themselves have been subjected to intolerance and prejudice. A free and open society allows liberty to all, and no one should have to feel unwelcome or belittled because of the political or religious opinions to which they subscribe. This forum is supposed to be a place where all are welcome and feel comfortable in being themselves and able to express themselves freely without intimidation.[/COLOR]

Wait a minute, wait a minute, wtf? For the record, the Jewish religious right, and the Muslim religious right are every bit as fucked up in their thinking as the Christian religious right. In recorded history since "The Enlightenment", I have found no evidence that conservative religion, doesn't matter what flavor, has ever done anything for humanity other than thwart, or retard society's progress. Religion might help individuals deal with the harsh reality of life on this planet, but conservative religion's value to society at large is harder to find. Human progress occurs in spite of religious conservatism, with the progressives, whether religious or not, dragging the conservatives forward, kicking and screaming the entire way. I actually think that the loudest portions of the political right in the US should now be called regressive instead of conservative.

I have never heard a progressive leader suggest rounding up Christian conservatives into concentration camps, to be permanently housed or even executed. But I have heard conservative leaders suggest that same thing for gays, and in some cases, just progressive people whose ideas conflict with that particular leader's ideas. The fact that thinking people disagree with the long held yet obviously divisive, incorrect, and silly ideas of the Christian right is not bigotry; it's verbal resistance of a very loud, nasty, and long standing Christian bigotry. If a group of people is constantly bashing another group or groups, and trying to justify institutional bigotry using unfounded religious beliefs, said group does not get to claim it's being oppressed and receiving unjustified bigotry when rational people rise up and call bullshit, "Bullshit." You, grubby41, are thinking backwards my friend; I have found this backwards thinking has become quite prevalent in religious conservative circles recently.

Let me say it another way just to be clear. Not allowing religious conservatives to discriminate against others based on their unfounded religious belief is not religious discrimination. Not allowing religious conservatives to discriminate against others is the very basis of religious freedom. Conservatives may teach their children what they want, progressives may teach their children what they want, and we'll all live happily, or maybe not so happily, together.

[COLOR=RoyalBlue]grubby41:[/COLOR]
[COLOR=RoyalBlue]I am gay, as are many of you. I am very comfortable with my sexuality, and hope that all men and women may be happy and comfortable with their sexuality. I am also an evangelical Christian, and conservative in my politics. That places me on the "religious right".[/COLOR]

Interesting? I cannot fathom how you can be both comfortably, acceptably gay, and a conservative evangelical Christian. Gay and politically conservative I don't get, but I can at least fathom it, based on historical definitions of political conservatism. Modern political conservatism and gay seems a bit more strained working together, but what do I know?

[COLOR=RoyalBlue]grubby41:[/COLOR]
[COLOR=RoyalBlue]Let people be what and who they are, and treat them as you would want to be treated yourselves. And if you disagree with them, do so with civility and respect. And just remember, there are many of us out there who believe in God, who believe the Bible, and who think that an evening with Clark Kent would be a foretaste of heaven. I'm just sayin'.[/COLOR]

Define "believe the Bible." Are you talking allegorical or literal belief? If you mean allegorical, then your last statement pretty much makes you a religious progressive. That mind set is about which we progressives have been loudly disagreeing with the religious conservatives. I promise you that progressives will leave religious conservatives alone, and live and let live, when religious conservatives do the same. Progressives are not oppressing religious conservatives; we are resisting the conservatives attempts to continue oppressing minorities, as has always been the case.

Sincerely,
Jeff

TL;DR version: Sorry to tell you grubby41, but you're wrong in a very big and obvious way.

[JeffXeno]

anpuZA said:

[COLOR=RoyalBlue]Quote:[/COLOR]

[COLOR=RoyalBlue] Originally Posted by [/COLOR][COLOR=RoyalBlue]JeffXeno[/COLOR]

[COLOR=RoyalBlue]A bit off topic here, but it's worth stating so here I go.[/COLOR]
[COLOR=RoyalBlue][/COLOR]
[COLOR=RoyalBlue] To me this thread has been fascinating. I'm in the process of reading "The Believing Brain: From Ghosts and Gods to Politics and Conspiracies--How We Construct Beliefs and Reinforce Them As Truths" by Dr .Michael Shermer (see HERE). It's a rather dry read since it's dealing with a scientific hypothesis, but it's well written for the non-scientific.[/COLOR]
[COLOR=RoyalBlue][/COLOR]
[COLOR=RoyalBlue]musqlure has a belief here which has been refuted fairly well by pretty much everyone. The belief is, for the most part, pretty insignificant, but he's still rationalizing it in order to maintain what he believes to be true; he's putting a lot of effort into maintain this insignificant belief, so imagine how much effort would go into maintaining a very significant belief. [/COLOR]
[COLOR=RoyalBlue][/COLOR]
[COLOR=RoyalBlue] I see it as a perfect example of Dr. Michael Shermer's hypothesis in action. Our brains are quite skilled at coming up with bad ideas, and fooling us into believing them to be true. It takes a lot of effort, and a strong dose of humility to be able to keep our brains from getting filled with silly, incorrect ideas.[/COLOR]
[COLOR=RoyalBlue][/COLOR]
[COLOR=RoyalBlue] Jeff[/COLOR]

Okay, so we humans have the ability to fool ourselves (and others) into thinking that this one idea or concept is really logical and essentially correct when it isn't.

Good, I understand that, but who is to say what is correct / incorrect, petty or of absolute importance? Hell, the good doctor might just be plying you with his crappy ideas about how the human thought process works, obviously validating these ideas using his various doctorates and diplomas to bludgeon your ability to question his findings into pulp. You buy into said bad ideas of the doctor because popular media and years of hit and miss experiments having resulted in our so called understanding of the universe gives scientists some perceived level of validation which is obviously exacerbated by our short lifespans and even shorter attention spans.

Ergo the very foundation of scientific credibility could have fundamentally been founded on a bad idea, which our civilization might have deluded itself into believing, were you to equate it to a thinking human being and science to the idea.

Now keeping in mind that I am absolutely not a creationist, one must ask oneself, could everyone, even the non existent god, not be right at the same time? Reality is perceived, therefore it exists in the landscape of the mind, where we spend 99% of our lives. So whatever a person perceives is ultimately therefore true for them. If I see green faeries flying about my room every bloody night, they will bloody well exist for me and you can just go jump in a lake if you don't see them.

Musulqre perceived a racial slur / slight for some reason. He reacted to it. I happen to perceive his perception as wrong, but then again I don't live in his world and I am not going to consider his "delusions" inferior to my own, I've shared my "data" with him, he can either assimilate it or as is most often the case since most people don't like their perception worlds to be changed, he will choose to ignore it as a falsehood.

Let's face it, if we humans couldn't deceive ourselves, we would have long since gone stark raving primitive. We would've never evolved. In fact, deluding yourself is a sure sign of intelligence. Abstract thinking requires it, hell, maths requires it to some extent. Art is fueled by it and without it Lady Gaga would've been Lady Bleh-bleh.



And yeah, I know, this is my bad idea, and I am defending it and rationalizing it like crazy. I am living a lie (Outside the closet). I know it. We all are aren't we? The funny thing is, once
you get that you are living a lie and deluding yourself, that's when you kinda figure out the truth, which incidentally negates you living a lie.

Paradoxical-like.

I am going to take a bath right now, which might or might not be hot and wet, depending on my perceptions.

But it will be relaxing, because I deem it so.





My name is Ozymandias, king of kings, look on my works (or spelling and grammar) ye mighty and despair!!! (Oh, yes, despair verily.)
Last edited by anpuZA; June 1st, 2012 at 05:36 PM.

[CelticMuscle]

According to Wikipedia, the following elected officials were the first to declare themselves / be outed over the last 20 years

List of LGBT political office holders

You will note that all parties have gay members (Con, Lab, Lib Dem, Green, SNP) and that might explain why in recent years the idea of a gay MP doesn't raise the eyebrows it did even prior to the 1997 general election.

[Mdlftr]

...mostly because, at some point, the ultimate "Proof" resolves down to belief.

Either you believe "premise A" from which all subsequent conclusions flow, or you don't.

If you don't, there's not much room left for discussion, beyond arguing over the structure of the competing arguments.

Human sexuality and what makes person A attracted to person B is a complete mystery. Anything that tries to explain it (pheromes, chromosomes, the style of clothing, societal expectations, political choice, "perversion" etc. etc.) is doomed to second-guessing and argument.

Discussing the "rightness" or "wrongness" of human sexuality as a way to pass the time, it can be entertaining, if frustrating. As a means to "convincing" someone or proving a point -- very little chance of success!

Speaking only for myself, I've come to the conclusion that homosexuality has to have some degree of innateness or lack of choice to it, like skin color. Any rational persons, over centuries, would not make self destructive choices or choices which put them so outside the mainstream unless there were some compelling reason. In the absence of evidence of a compelling reason, it becomes more evident that it is due to something innate over which the individual has no choice.

In law, there is a preference NOT to judge others over innate characteristics over which they have no control. E.g., you don't blame people for their skin color, because that is not something they did, it is something they are. No only do you not blame them, you do not arbitrarily assign characteristics or behavior to the particular skin color. Similarly, it seems that the sexual desire is something that is innate. You can try to regulate some behaviors: i.e. protect certain classes of people, such as minors, from any sexual activity (that's why there are statutory rape statutes) but otherwise you try to stay out of people's bedrooms.

My two cents.

Mdlftr

[arpeejay]

Muscle. More muscle. Big muscle. Big fucking huge muscle. Big fucking huge muscle with huge muscle-hungry cocks.

I'm not really sure why anything else needs to be discussed. Not here, anyway.

xoxo

Richard

[Mdlftr]

Originally Posted by arpeejay

Muscle. More muscle. Big muscle. Big fucking huge muscle. Big fucking huge muscle with huge muscle-hungry cocks.

I'm not really sure why anything else needs to be discussed. Not here, anyway.

xoxo

Richard

Erm, you do realize this IS in the "Off-Topic" Board, Richard?

Also, let's face it, "Huge muscle-hungry cocks" kind of begs the question about this whole "off topic" thread!

Muscle raises all kinds of collateral issues in people's minds about masculinity/power/sexuality/control/competence/attractiveness/identity -- and the opposite of all of the above!

Off-Topic is the appropriate place for all of this!

[raven79]

Jeff, I do actually see a place for talking about politics and religion, and the 'Off-Topic' board is the place for it.

There are actually conservative Christian gays in this country. They are the 'Log Cabin' Republicans. They are a strange bunch because they are fiscally conservative and in general socially moderate.

My views have actually changed somewhat towards the center myself. I used to be a staunch liberal, but the last ten years have changed my views in this country. The entire legislative branch in this country is a lost cause and they don't care about us whatsoever. They also have all the power other than the few times the Supreme Court chimes in and that is another subject itself.

I think that religion does things to people that are not attractive, but I won't talk about that because it is a taboo subject no matter where you go on the Internet.

I do actually believe that being gay now isn't the same as it was just a year ago because the right cannot keep up with the growing support for it. If they try to suppress it, it will cause a lot of unnecessary conflicts down the road.

Let's keep talking about this because I have kept this in for the entire duration I have been on this board because I didn't want to offend anyone. Since JeffXeno, anpuZa, and Mdlftr all started this, we might as well continue it.

[anpuZA]

Originally Posted by JeffXeno

anpuZA said:

[COLOR=RoyalBlue]Quote:[/COLOR]

[COLOR=RoyalBlue] Originally Posted by [/COLOR][COLOR=RoyalBlue]JeffXeno[/COLOR]

[COLOR=RoyalBlue]A bit off topic here, but it's worth stating so here I go.[/COLOR]

[COLOR=RoyalBlue] To me this thread has been fascinating. I'm in the process of reading "The Believing Brain: From Ghosts and Gods to Politics and Conspiracies--How We Construct Beliefs and Reinforce Them As Truths" by Dr .Michael Shermer (see HERE). It's a rather dry read since it's dealing with a scientific hypothesis, but it's well written for the non-scientific.[/COLOR]

[COLOR=RoyalBlue]musqlure has a belief here which has been refuted fairly well by pretty much everyone. The belief is, for the most part, pretty insignificant, but he's still rationalizing it in order to maintain what he believes to be true; he's putting a lot of effort into maintain this insignificant belief, so imagine how much effort would go into maintaining a very significant belief. [/COLOR]

[COLOR=RoyalBlue] I see it as a perfect example of Dr. Michael Shermer's hypothesis in action. Our brains are quite skilled at coming up with bad ideas, and fooling us into believing them to be true. It takes a lot of effort, and a strong dose of humility to be able to keep our brains from getting filled with silly, incorrect ideas.[/COLOR]

[COLOR=RoyalBlue] Jeff[/COLOR]

Okay, so we humans have the ability to fool ourselves (and others) into thinking that this one idea or concept is really logical and essentially correct when it isn't.

Good, I understand that, but who is to say what is correct / incorrect, petty or of absolute importance? Hell, the good doctor might just be plying you with his crappy ideas about how the human thought process works, obviously validating these ideas using his various doctorates and diplomas to bludgeon your ability to question his findings into pulp. You buy into said bad ideas of the doctor because popular media and years of hit and miss experiments having resulted in our so called understanding of the universe gives scientists some perceived level of validation which is obviously exacerbated by our short lifespans and even shorter attention spans.

Ergo the very foundation of scientific credibility could have fundamentally been founded on a bad idea, which our civilization might have deluded itself into believing, were you to equate it to a thinking human being and science to the idea.

Now keeping in mind that I am absolutely not a creationist, one must ask oneself, could everyone, even the non existent god, not be right at the same time? Reality is perceived, therefore it exists in the landscape of the mind, where we spend 99% of our lives. So whatever a person perceives is ultimately therefore true for them. If I see green faeries flying about my room every bloody night, they will bloody well exist for me and you can just go jump in a lake if you don't see them.

Musulqre perceived a racial slur / slight for some reason. He reacted to it. I happen to perceive his perception as wrong, but then again I don't live in his world and I am not going to consider his "delusions" inferior to my own, I've shared my "data" with him, he can either assimilate it or as is most often the case since most people don't like their perception worlds to be changed, he will choose to ignore it as a falsehood.

Let's face it, if we humans couldn't deceive ourselves, we would have long since gone stark raving primitive. We would've never evolved. In fact, deluding yourself is a sure sign of intelligence. Abstract thinking requires it, hell, maths requires it to some extent. Art is fueled by it and without it Lady Gaga would've been Lady Bleh-bleh.



And yeah, I know, this is my bad idea, and I am defending it and rationalizing it like crazy. I am living a lie (Outside the closet). I know it. We all are aren't we? The funny thing is, once
you get that you are living a lie and deluding yourself, that's when you kinda figure out the truth, which incidentally negates you living a lie.

Paradoxical-like.

I am going to take a bath right now, which might or might not be hot and wet, depending on my perceptions.

But it will be relaxing, because I deem it so.





My name is Ozymandias, king of kings, look on my works (or spelling and grammar) ye mighty and despair!!! (Oh, yes, despair verily.)
Last edited by anpuZA; June 1st, 2012 at 05:36 PM.

I am *SO* confused right now...

I think I remember saying the white bit...

but now the forum is saying I said the blue bit...

but I can't remember ever using blue colouring crayons!

Oh damnit... I probably need to go see my shrink again...

[anpuZA]

Oh now I see, the blue bits are what you are saying Jeff!!! How *do* you do that?

And might I add, oh so superheroey of you indeed... are you wearing spandex again?

[JeffXeno]

Originally Posted by anpuZA

Oh now I see, the blue bits are what you are saying Jeff!!! How *do* you do that?

And might I add, oh so superheroey of you indeed... are you wearing spandex again?

Correct, but I haven't replied to you yet, though I intend to as some time in the future. You're response to me seemed like it has several point I needed to address, but I want to ask if something I wrote angered or frustrated you? If something frustrated or angered you, I wanted to address that. Otherwise, the part I most want to address is why we know scientific knowledge is correct, and not just another delusion.

[arpeejay]

Originally Posted by Mdlftr

Erm, you do realize this IS in the "Off-Topic" Board, Richard?

Also, let's face it, "Huge muscle-hungry cocks" kind of begs the question about this whole "off topic" thread!

Muscle raises all kinds of collateral issues in people's minds about masculinity/power/sexuality/control/competence/attractiveness/identity -- and the opposite of all of the above!

Off-Topic is the appropriate place for all of this!

Yes, I do realize it's off topic. I just don't see much point in GOING off topic, especially when it involves politics and religion, the two great no-no's when it comes to promoting interfamilial harmony.

Which isn't to say that Jeff shouldn't have done so, or that others shouldn't feel free to respond, just that -- in my opinion -- the likelihood of having an extended, meaningful conversation on such topics is pretty slim.

Whereas muscle, muscle, and more muscle are always good topics!

xoxo

Richard

[Ragetiger]

Originally Posted by arpeejay

Yes, I do realize it's off topic. I just don't see much point in GOING off topic, especially when it involves politics and religion, the two great no-no's when it comes to promoting interfamilial harmony.

Which isn't to say that Jeff shouldn't have done so, or that others shouldn't feel free to respond, just that -- in my opinion -- the likelihood of having an extended, meaningful conversation on such topics is pretty slim.

Whereas muscle, muscle, and more muscle are always good topics!

xoxo

Richard

It started in the section of the Muscle Growth Media where they were talking about Green Latern in an alternate universe coming out as gay. So he brought it over here, to avoid that thread from becoming off topic.

[arpeejay]

I guess there are only so many ways I can say, "yes, yes, I get it" and "yes, yes, it's a perfectly appropriate topic for this section." I'll refrain from further declarations of the preceding although my guess is at least 10 other people will say, "but, wait, it IS appropriate!"

<< rolls eyes >>

Y'all have fun with it!

xoxo

Richard

[raven79]

I known it makes you feel 'uncomfortable' Richard so I will let you off the hook this time.

[anpuZA]

Originally Posted by JeffXeno

Correct, but I haven't replied to you yet, though I intend to as some time in the future. You're response to me seemed like it has several point I needed to address, but I want to ask if something I wrote angered or frustrated you? If something frustrated or angered you, I wanted to address that. Otherwise, the part I most want to address is why we know scientific knowledge is correct, and not just another delusion.

Nothing about what you said frustrated me or angered me. I too believe the only logical way to proceed with our understanding of the universe is the scientific way, but, you can't put it on a pedestal above other peoples (') beliefs simply because you believe that. Look, I am going to try and explain it in a simplified way and maybe it will make more sense... or whatever.

Here goes:

The universe, and all that we know, all that we sense is a unimaginably huge room. And it is dark, we can sense the floor (our existence) but we know nothing of any walls, ceiling or doors that either enclose or lead out of here.

In the beginning we wake up, sensing the immensity before us, but with no other thing except the floor and our self knowledge to guide us, we begin to wonder... why are we here. What is this all about. So we begin thinking. How come the room is here? Perhaps somebody made it. Perhaps that same somebody made us, perhaps everything that is happening to us is being orchestrated by this very same being. This unknown being obviously isn't interested in killing us as we seem to be very much alive, so we go on our knees, feeling the floor as we do so spiralling outward from where we began. We start thinking, perhaps the presence will guide us, and in the dark room we begin to hear / feel the entity guiding us. Every-which way we turn, we believe in our hearts that we are being guided along the floor, to somewhere important, maybe even to a door where we will go through and meet this being, knowing that to experience it in it's natural environment with our mortal eyes might destroy us (remember in the dark there is no light so we would have no frame of reference on how to handle this god) but we believe that passing through this door will transform us, and we will go and live with this creator in absolute peace and knowing all.

So we move, on our knees, along the way we find some kind of flint / match. Some of us want to strike it immediately, some consider it heresy and order the rest to drop the evil thing. But we don't, after much fighting some are left with the light, the rest are left with their trust in whoever made the room. Those with the light strike it, and in the sudden shocking glare they look outward into the darkness, only to find no walls, or no ceiling. So they look at each other, and in the soft light their true being is finally revealed to one another. In that truth (science) they begin to learn things about themselves and the immediate floor around them. Soon they find more light, and even more. Slowly some of those who first spurned the light begin to warm up to it, they even incorporate it into their beliefs. Others spurn it completely and turn their backs to it, staring out into the deep, knowing only the sight of their own shadows.

As more and more light is found, the darkness is driven even further, and at once it becomes clear, that whatever this is for now, it is only a floor, since still no ceiling or walls can be discerned. The believers continue to believe such exists (as in their logic it should) and that there will be an aperture through which to exit the dark and join whoever made this place.

The carries of the Light, question this theology and states that, until a wall, ceiling, door or window is found, none exists, only the floor is truly there to be seen, measured and understood. With their lights the focus on the near floor and the farthest parts where the light goes and reflects and they study this. The more they study, the more lights they find and add, and as time goes by it begins to seem more and more obvious to some of the others that the way of Light might be correct. So far it has illuminated their understanding of themselves, allowing them to cure ailments and live longer lives that could not be lived in the darkness. It has pushed back the darkness from them, and they have not laid one eye on the demons that stalked their imaginations during the time of darkness (others believing that the demons are now invisible in the light but still very active). New ways of seeing the floor, lighting it, using it to predict which way to search or just how to discover new things lying on it. Nowhere are there signs of the maker, and now even the Carriers of Light begin to describe with Lightborn theories how the eternal floor could have come into being without the aid of a creator. Even how all of what can be found on the floor (including themselves) could have come from the floor in the first times and not by some guiding hand. As time goes by, and the two sides split further apart, the time of the Enlightened ones begins and it seems the Wallers are slowly being sidelined.

Look I realise that I am probably talking out of my ass with this one. I certainly have a vision of it, but find it hard to explain it in words eloquently and more efficiently. But I think you catch my gist?

So here's my point.

The Way of the Light makes logical sense, because although they vehemently deny the existing of the walls (and the door) they are simply excluding that until their planned, timely studies of the floor might guide them to such a finding (if it exists) even then, the existence of a creator can also only be accepted once it is known. Until then it does not exist.
This doesn't mean they are wrong, but for any scientist to deny that something like that is impossible is where the wrong is being committed in my eyes. If you are a scientist, your only denial ever should be: That is not impossible, but it is highly unlikely.

For the Wallers I have this to say, just because you believe a floor immediately predicts a wall and therefore an architect, in your hearts heart, doesn't make it true. In fact half of you lot wouldn't bat an eye ignoring a financial expert telling you to buy FB shares because he BELIEVES they are going to double in value tomorrow. He might be right on the off chance, but he is gambling and you know it. Even if it does happen, it is in itself no proof that it wasn't due to simple chance or possibly his orchestrations of the market. The Financial adviser btw isn't God, but your pastor or priest who is making a nice enough living because of that 10% tithe clause in the contract.

[anpuZA]

Errr, okay, seems I killed the thread.

Look, I'll boil it down to it's essentials.

Religious folk are optimists with a penchant for extremism (sometimes).

Scientists / Atheists and Agnostics are realists with a penchant for elitism.

?

[JeffXeno]

Originally Posted by anpuZA

Errr, okay, seems I killed the thread.

Look, I'll boil it down to it's essentials.

Religious folk are optimists with a penchant for extremism (sometimes).

Scientists / Atheists and Agnostics are realists with a penchant for elitism.

?

I intend to reply eventually, but I've been busy doing other things, and haven't had the time to compose an adequate reply to address your points.

Hope to reply soon,
Jeff

[raven79]

You didn't kill the thread anpuZa, its just very tiring to try to get people to understand things.

[anpuZA]

Originally Posted by raven79

You didn't kill the thread anpuZa, its just very tiring to try to get people to understand things.

I *know*, right?!

It's very bothersome sometimes, so I've decided, once I conquer planet earth (with my incredible wit and charm) I will explain myself to y'all and just say..."Oooh, lookee here, what is this in my hand? Oh a very big gun, wow! Now, do you see my point? Do you understand it? More to the point (sound of a gun being cocked), do you agree with it?... you do? Wonderful!!! I do so detest violence."

[Mdlftr]

Since I follow national politics I have to remind everyone (as if you needed reminding) that the issue of homosexuality, philosophy, politics and religion is very much on the mind of voters throughout this country this election year, 2012.

A number of states, including Maryland, are going to put a referendum on the ballot to "have a vote" on whether or not legislation authorizing "marriage equality" or marriage between consenting adults, regardless of gender, will be allowed to go into effect.

The sad truth of the matter is that many voters, for a variety of reasons, religious beliefs among them, are prepared to vote against these pieces of legilslation. MANY of these voters honestly believe that the proposed legislation is an evil act, and, far from being a manifestation of equal rights, is, instead, a manifestation of sin and evil and decadent lifestyles. These same voters also belief that homosexual relationships are totally a choice, and a sinful choice, at that, like stealing or lying or worse.

All I'm saying is -- it may be ANNOYING to keep revisiting these issues, but these issues impact people's civil rights. Ignore them at your peril.

JUST a dose of reality.

Now, back to our fantasy website.......

[raven79]

Mdlftr, I hope it does pass in Maryland then I know that the New England states actually have some decency and not be oblivious to the real world.
I have actually contemplated moving up there because it appears that they are the only places in this country that are coming to their senses and not revoking their own rights.

It makes me sick to think that the 'silent' issue in this election is race, but that appears to be it. It isn't homosexuality, it is because Obama is black and nobody will admit it. I can understand why conservatives vote the way they do, but Democrats that vote against him are insane. I personally do not like him at all, but a vote for Romney is a vote for the top tier, ala corporate America. These people will literally take everything away from us and leave us with no rights.

Oh and don't get me started with women. Seriously, wake up America!
(Gawd, I need to be with someone right now! )

[JeffXeno]

OK, I want to come back to this issue, and I have created a Google poll to gather some information. I do not know who answers what question which way because I cannot see that data. Google would seem to know more that than I. All I get is a spread sheet with the participants answers. I think the data might be interesting to many of the people who post here at The Evolution Forums.

I will eventually share all the data collected via this poll right here on this thread. I hope we get many people to responde so that we can have the most data.

Thanks,
Jeff

Please take the poll by clicking the following link. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...MlFXdzVfTmc6MQ

[WhoDunIt]

Should be interesting to see how it turns out. With the way many so called religious people act, It's driven myself and my sister away from most religons, and our dad has seen much of what is. going on now for decades more than she and I have and frankly isn't much better when it comes to believing what a preacher would give an opinion of as truth.

[Muslbud708]

Originally Posted by [INDENT

[COLOR=RoyalBlue]grubby41:[/COLOR]
[COLOR=RoyalBlue]I am gay, as are many of you. I am very comfortable with my sexuality, and hope that all men and women may be happy and comfortable with their sexuality. I am also an evangelical Christian, and conservative in my politics. That places me on the "religious right".[/COLOR]
[/INDENT]Interesting? I cannot fathom how you can be both comfortably, acceptably gay, and a conservative evangelical Christian. Gay and politically conservative I don't get, but I can at least fathom it, based on historical definitions of political conservatism. Modern political conservatism and gay seems a bit more strained working together, but what do I know?

[COLOR=RoyalBlue]grubby41:[/COLOR]
[COLOR=RoyalBlue]Let people be what and who they are, and treat them as you would want to be treated yourselves. And if you disagree with them, do so with civility and respect. And just remember, there are many of us out there who believe in God, who believe the Bible, and who think that an evening with Clark Kent would be a foretaste of heaven. I'm just sayin'.[/COLOR]

Define "believe the Bible." Are you talking allegorical or literal belief? If you mean allegorical, then your last statement pretty much makes you a religious progressive. That mind set is about which we progressives have been loudly disagreeing with the religious conservatives. I promise you that progressives will leave religious conservatives alone, and live and let live, when religious conservatives do the same. Progressives are not oppressing religious conservatives; we are resisting the conservatives attempts to continue oppressing minorities, as has always been the case.

Sincerely,
Jeff

TL;DR version: Sorry to tell you grubby41, but you're wrong in a very big and obvious way.

It seems that in this exchange that the intolerant and the one who is blind to facts is the progressive. The gay Christian can be gay and religious because he is living by a set of rules set down in the Ten Commandments. It is the progressives that reject religion and therefore the rules. I am not saying that all religious people rigidly follow all the rules but isn't it the liberals (ACLU) that do not want the Ten Commandments in "public" buildings, any sort of statuary that represents Christmas, and have stopped the religious at heart from saying words (prayers) at graduations and football games?


And then there is this. [COLOR=Blue]Progressives are not oppressing religious conservatives; we are resisting the conservatives attempts to continue oppressing minorities, as has always been the case.[/COLOR] The "Progressive" idea of oppression of minorities is 180 degrees out of phase in my opinion. They have killed the minority family through welfare "kindness". They have taken the incentive away by giving away the fish instead of teaching them to fish and feed themselves. Their safety net has become a slippery sided bowl from which there is no escape.

[COLOR=Blue]Progressives are not oppressing religious conservatives. [/COLOR]Perhaps not by the sword as some of the radical Tailban would do but your words speak of hate and oppression because they do not hold your values or think progressively. [COLOR=Blue] I promise you that progressives will leave religious conservatives alone, and live and let live, when religious conservatives do the same.[/COLOR] In other words, shut-up you conservatives and go to the back of the bus where you belong because we are leading you and you better just follow.

You apparently do not believe that anyone that is religious had any brains. [COLOR=Yellow]Come to us and we will tell you what is right and how to interpret your Bible so that it conforms to the progressive way of thinking. Oh that passage doesn't mean it is wrong! If it feels good how could it be wrong?[/COLOR] Except the religious don't need you interpretations. The rules and guidelines are rather clear they come from God. Oh that's right you don't believe in God. Why believe in something that disagrees with you. Why believe in a higher power? Would that higher power say you are wrong?

[Muslbud708]

Originally Posted by Mdlftr

A number of states, including Maryland, are going to put a referendum on the ballot to "have a vote" on whether or not legislation authorizing "marriage equality" or marriage between consenting adults, regardless of gender, will be allowed to go into effect.

The sad truth of the matter is that many voters, for a variety of reasons, religious beliefs among them, are prepared to vote against these pieces of legislation. MANY of these voters honestly believe that the proposed legislation is an evil act, and, far from being a manifestation of equal rights, is, instead, a manifestation of sin and evil and decadent lifestyles. These same voters also belief that homosexual relationships are totally a choice, and a sinful choice, at that, like stealing or lying or worse.

All I'm saying is -- it may be ANNOYING to keep revisiting these issues, but these issues impact people's civil rights. Ignore them at your peril.

JUST a dose of reality.

Now, back to our fantasy website.......

Did you ever think that they are not voting against YOU but rather they are voting against defining marriage as anything but a union between a man and a woman to form a family and produce offspring? I do believe that two people in a committed relationship should get insurance benefits and all that stuff but form a corporation if you want that but don't call it marriage!

[JeffXeno]

Originally Posted by Muslbud708

It seems that in this exchange that the intolerant and the one who is blind to facts is the progressive. The gay Christian can be gay and religious because he is living by a set of rules set down in the Ten Commandments. It is the progressives that reject religion and therefore the rules. I am not saying that all religious people rigidly follow all the rules but isn't it the liberals (ACLU) that do not want the Ten Commandments in "public" buildings, any sort of statuary that represents Christmas, and have stopped the religious at heart from saying words (prayers) at graduations and football games?


And then there is this. [COLOR=Blue]Progressives are not oppressing religious conservatives; we are resisting the conservatives attempts to continue oppressing minorities, as has always been the case.[/COLOR] The "Progressive" idea of oppression of minorities is 180 degrees out of phase in my opinion. They have killed the minority family through welfare "kindness". They have taken the incentive away by giving away the fish instead of teaching them to fish and feed themselves. Their safety net has become a slippery sided bowl from which there is no escape.

[COLOR=Blue]Progressives are not oppressing religious conservatives. [/COLOR]Perhaps not by the sword as some of the radical Tailban would do but your words speak of hate and oppression because they do not hold your values or think progressively. [COLOR=Blue] I promise you that progressives will leave religious conservatives alone, and live and let live, when religious conservatives do the same.[/COLOR] In other words, shut-up you conservatives and go to the back of the bus where you belong because we are leading you and you better just follow.

You apparently do not believe that anyone that is religious had any brains. [COLOR=Yellow]Come to us and we will tell you what is right and how to interpret your Bible so that it conforms to the progressive way of thinking. Oh that passage doesn't mean it is wrong! If it feels good how could it be wrong?[/COLOR] Except the religious don't need you interpretations. The rules and guidelines are rather clear they come from God. Oh that's right you don't believe in God. Why believe in something that disagrees with you. Why believe in a higher power? Would that higher power say you are wrong?

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but you believe that intolerance of intolerance is intolerant? Is that what you think?

The untrained human mind is a most remarkable thing. It can twist every fact of reality to match it's preconceived beliefs about imaginary reality. This is why when every creationist claim has been answered a 1000 times over, all the same claims are still in use today by evolution deniers. In the mind of an evolution denier, every fact of reality must be twisted to agree with the non-sensical idea that some ancient book is the ultimate truth of the universe, and actual reality is some type of massive global conspiracy to cause the loss of faith.

I do not think that religious people are stupid, nor do I believe they have no brains. Many religious people are very smart. Problem is that smart people are very good at rationalizing beliefs that they have come to hold for not smart reasons. How an idea makes you feel has no bearing on whether or not it is true. For me, and for many people who like to better understand the world around us, I prefer uncomfortable and unexpected truth to warm, comfortable myths. And for the record, mythologies are just religions nobody believes anymore.

I fully support your right to believe whatever you want about metaphysics, but don't expect me to respect your beliefs based on your warm and fuzzy feelings. You're welcome to your security blanket. Feelings are often wonderful things, and sometimes they hurt; either way they are a terrible way to determine truth about reality.

I stand by my first post, and you've not added anything new to the conversation that I can see. Feel free to disagree.

Jeff

Non-believer humor:

[JeffXeno]

Originally Posted by Muslbud708

Did you ever think that they are not voting against YOU but rather they are voting against defining marriage as anything but a union between a man and a woman to form a family and produce offspring? I do believe that two people in a committed relationship should get insurance benefits and all that stuff but form a corporation if you want that but don't call it marriage!

This video will teach us about Biblical marriage:

Betty Bowers Explains Traditional Marriage to Everyone Else -...

Enjoy.

[JeffXeno]

My first response was entirely too brief, so I've gone back to address more of your issues in more depth.

Originally Posted by Muslbud708

And then there is this. [COLOR=Blue]Progressives are not oppressing religious conservatives; we are resisting the conservatives attempts to continue oppressing minorities, as has always been the case.[/COLOR] The "Progressive" idea of oppression of minorities is 180 degrees out of phase in my opinion. They have killed the minority family through welfare "kindness". They have taken the incentive away by giving away the fish instead of teaching them to fish and feed themselves. Their safety net has become a slippery sided bowl from which there is no escape.

I know this this argument. I used to use it you see. It is the social dogma of modern Republicanism. I consider myself a recovering Republican, having voted mostly Republican from 1984 until 2004. I've been there and done that. The fishing analogy is wonderful and warm, and no one has ever disagreed with it, and it's largely meaningless here.

Here are some facts that you may well dismiss as opinion, and then counter with opinions that you might claim to be facts. That is the very worst effect of the modern right-wing echo chamber; they have made a mockery of the English language, changing the meaning of words such as facts and opinion, reality and mythology, but I digress.

Fact 1) Indicators of Social dysfunction are higher in more socially and religiously conservative countries. Indicators of social dysfunction are things like teenage pregnancy, infant mortality, STDs, high prison populations, high school drop out rates, higher divorce rates, etc. Needless to say, the opposite is true in more liberal countries, with lower indications of social dysfunction. The conservative also have a higher rate of science denial, and a distrust higher education.

Fact 2) Indicators of human happiness are higher in socially liberal countries, and lower in socially conservative countries. Rate of religiosity are also lower in said liberal countries.

Fact 3) Facts 1 & 2 end up also being true among US states, the more liberal ones mostly doing better than the more conservative ones.

Fact 4) The more conservative any theology, the less well it can get along with other theologies, and the less well it gets along with modernity. More Liberal takes on all theology are more compatible with other religions, and modernity.

Fact 5) I've lived and worked in the worlds most populated Muslim country. I've eaten meals in nearly as many Muslim homes as I have Christian homes. They are mostly great people, but the ones that take their religion too seriously (conservative Muslims) are the problem. That is just like here where the conservative Christians think they have some very special information that the rest of us haven't heard or seen yet. When you think you know the mind of the creator of the universe, you will blow up abortion clinics, shoot abortion doctors, commit suicide bombings, and fly planes into skyscrapers.

I'm now going to include some data to back up my claims. If I put in a little effort, I can find more studies, but they all show the same thing, and are quite boring to read. If you come back with a reply, I expect some data to backup your assertions.

The correlation between religiosity and well-being among U.S. states

Now for this bit:

Originally Posted by Muslbud708

You apparently do not believe that anyone that is religious had any brains. [COLOR=Yellow]Come to us and we will tell you what is right and how to interpret your Bible so that it conforms to the progressive way of thinking. Oh that passage doesn't mean it is wrong! If it feels good how could it be wrong?[/COLOR] Except the religious don't need you interpretations. The rules and guidelines are rather clear they come from God. Oh that's right you don't believe in God. Why believe in something that disagrees with you. Why believe in a higher power? Would that higher power say you are wrong?

I don't interpret the Bible; I read it, take it at face value, and reject about 99.90% of it. Bible morality is infinitely worse than modern morality. The god of the Bible is certainly one of the nastiest characters in all of literary fiction. By some calculations, the body count in the Bible is:

God: 2,038,344
Devil: 10

Now who is the worse character, really?

If you think you are not picking and choosing you desired moral teaching from the Bible, then you haven't read the book, or you failed to understand it.

I am not a Bible expert and would never have the patience for such a thing. If you wish to actually learn something about your holy book rather than what you have been spoon fed all your life, I highly recommend Robert M. Price Ph.D. and John W. Loftus.

Both men were evangelical preachers, and both performed very deep and thorough studies of the Bible texts and history to prove the book was correct and that their religion was true; both learned dead languages so they could read the ancient texts themselves. Both lost their faith during that journey, and both still occasionally go to church just for the old warm feelings. Both have a deep understanding of the book, its history though the ages, and the mind of evangelical Christians. Both of them will explain some uncomfortable truths about the Bible, and they will tell it to you in the most kind and gentle way. These two men each know more about the Bible than any Priest or Preacher I've ever met.

If you can read some those two guys' works, and you start to get nervous about the source of human morality, then one good book I can recommend is Michael Shermer's The Science Of Good and Evil: Why People Cheat, Gossip, Care, Share, And Follow The Golden Rule. Shermer was also an Evangelical Christian at one time.

I do apologize for the curt tone of my first reply. I wanted to say something, and didn't have the time to write a proper reply.

Jeff.

P.S. I consider myself a pantheist, not an atheist.

P.P.S. When I finally lost my belief in the Republican dogma, and understood that all religion is total hogwash, I became a much happier, more easy going, less judgmental, and more patient & loving human being. You might say I became much more christ-like.

One last humorous video from Mrs Betty Bowers - America's Best Christian.

America's 5 Favorite Ways to Ignore Jesus - YouTube

[Muslbud708]

Bravo Jeff.

I just hope that when you die and stand before God that he doesn't judge you as harshly as you judge those whose opinions differ from yours. There are many many books that refute everything you say and everything you have read. You have found those books that agree with your present philosophy and justify the way you have chosen to live. Creationist vs evolution? In my opinion if God is the prime mover why can't there be evolution? How can man know what God has planned?

God is Love.
Look at everyone you meet and see them as though you were looking through the eyes of God who like I said is pure love. Look at them with pure love in your heart. Only then will you be more Christ-like.

You want real answers? I suggest some quiet meditation. You don't need to pray formal prayers. Just talk to God in your own words and He will hear you. You might even get some answers if you open your heart and mind to that love.

You seem to have already made up you mind but I will still pray for you.

[JeffXeno]

Originally Posted by JeffXeno

OK, I want to come back to this issue, and I have created a Google poll to gather some information. I do not know who answers what question which way because I cannot see that data. Google would seem to know more that than I. All I get is a spread sheet with the participants answers. I think the data might be interesting to many of the people who post here at The Evolution Forums.

I will eventually share all the data collected via this poll right here on this thread. I hope we get many people to responde so that we can have the most data.

Thanks,
Jeff

Please take the poll by clicking the following link. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...MlFXdzVfTmc6MQ

The results are coming in slow, but here is a first draft. I don't know that I see any surprises other than the respondents are a bit older than I expected, but I have no clue why I was expecting them to be younger really. Some unjustifed internal assumption, I guess.

Belief Poll Results

[JeffXeno]

Originally Posted by Muslbud708

Bravo Jeff.

I just hope that when you die and stand before God that he doesn't judge you as harshly as you judge those whose opinions differ from yours. There are many many books that refute everything you say and everything you have read. You have found those books that agree with your present philosophy and justify the way you have chosen to live. Creationist vs evolution? In my opinion if God is the prime mover why can't there be evolution? How can man know what God has planned?

God is Love.
Look at everyone you meet and see them as though you were looking through the eyes of God who like I said is pure love. Look at them with pure love in your heart. Only then will you be more Christ-like.

You want real answers? I suggest some quiet meditation. You don't need to pray formal prayers. Just talk to God in your own words and He will hear you. You might even get some answers if you open your heart and mind to that love.

You seem to have already made up you mind but I will still pray for you.

I took all that time and effort to give you a thoughtful, detailed reply, and you give me this? Not surprising I guess. I've seen such responses before, and I no doubt share a large part of the blame because I no longer have the patiences to pretend to take conservative religious beliefs seriously, be they Christian, Islamic, Jewish, Hindu, or Scientology. I know your beliefs are important to you, but I know they are based on absurdities, powered by faith, and very dangerous to human culture and freedom. I will humor it no longer.

I am sorry if what I said hurt your feelings, as it seems perhaps it did. The bigger question is, how can anything I type here hurt you? Seriously, you could type at me until your fingers bleed and fall off, and I can think of nothing you could say that would be able hurt me. Think about that. Why do you suppose that is? I have an idea, but I’ll keep it to myself for now.

As to me dying and being judged by god, my only concern is wether or not my size 14 foot is big enough to give the appropriate swift kick in the ass that the god of Abraham so rightfully deserves. An actual all powerful, all knowing, all good god could have communicated his desires to us in a way that was clear, concise, and understood by every human throughout time; then there would be only one religion, and the world would be a much better place. As it is, we end up with thousands of religions and their well meaning, but ignorant believers claiming a special knowledge of the thoughts and desires of the creator of the universe. It’s absurd in the extreme.

I agree, if there is a god, then evolution is how he did it, Genesis is allegory, and we can stop the bullshit. Hint, it’s not the scientists, the liberal religious, or the nonbelievers causing that issue; it’s the inerrant bible believing conservative Christians who keep trying to replace science with mythology. See, more evidence that conservative religion is dangerous to society by injecting its fantasy into our collective reality.

As to their being many books that prove I’m wrong, no there are not. There might be many books that claim I’m wrong, but they prove nothing because they are not based on genuine data and scientific study. I have a Harry Potter book on my book shelf that says I can fly if I sit on a broomstick. Books prove nothing, data does. Liberal countries have happier, healthier, less dysfunctional people than the more conservative religious countries. To be clear, I’m not saying conservative religion cause dysfunction, just that there is a strong correlation between the two. It might be religion causes dysfunction, or it might be that as societies improve social structure where people’s lives are protected from many of the harsher realities of life (like health insurance, and college tuition), people find less need for their comforting myths. It maybe something else that causes the correlation, and in time I suspect we’ll figure that out.

God is love. Well, if you define god that way, then I would have to agree that your god exists. Answer me this. How will I be judged by this love when I get to heaven? Didn’t you suggest I should be worried about my final judgement? How will I be able to kick the love in the ass? I’m not worried about being judged by love at all. As for me, I think love is one of the best human emotions, and if there is a god who created the universe, I’m not going to pretend to know what it thinks.

I do meditate quite often. More than anyone else I know personally. I also read many books on philosophy and science, and I attend lectures and debates for the pure pleasure of learning new things. I learn more when I read, and listen to lectures, but I do get to contemplate ideas while I mediate. The only thing I hear when I meditate are my own thoughts. Never has a god communicated with me, and I seriously doubt one has ever communicated with any human ever. Isn’t it interesting how Christians hear their god, Muslims hear their god, Mormons hear their’s, and Hindus hear their gods? Did I mention I’ve met quite a few Hindus in my travels? Unlike Muslims, with Hindus you can have pork, but beef is right out.

To answer your question, yes I have made up my mind based on everything I currently know. You said nothing I haven’t heard hundreds of times before. Perhaps someday someone will make an argument that will change my mind. It doesn’t seem likely right now, but the universe is a wonderfully remarkable place, and we are learning new things all the time.

As for praying for me, if you really want to do something for me, instead of praying, try reading some of the works of Robert M. Price, John W. Loftus, and Michael Shermer. You might learn something that blows your mind, and that's always an interesting experience.

Sincerely,
Jeff

[V.R.Goh]

Jeff, now you know why I avoid having religious discussions with Christian fundies. They frustrate me.

For example, I do not recall where on Youtube I saw this, but a guy was holding a sign that read "Everything I need to know about Islam, I learned on 9/11." Based on that, all one needs to know about Christianity can be learned from the Westboro Baptist Church (the "God Hates F**s" people), Jerry Fallwell (who blamed gays, pagans, feminists, abortionists, and the ACLU for 9/11), Ann Coulter (who said in regard to Muslim countries that "we should invade their countries, kill their leaders, and convert them to Christianity"), and Kirk Cameron (who edited Charles Darwin to make it look creationist). People who call themselves Christians, yet will kill abortion doctors to protect the unborn, are violating one of their religion's very tenets: thou shalt not kill. If they want to protect, for example, the sanctity of marriage, they should start with the high divorce rate among straight couples instead of criminalizing same-sex marriage. Although, they should also keep in mind that, originally, marriage was more like a business merger than the union of two loving people. What some people may or may not realize is that there is only one difference between fundamentalist Christians and fundamentalist Muslims: the book they call holy.

As to the Bible, it has been translated, re-translated, badly translated, copied, re-copied, poorly copied, and edited over the course of over two millenia. It was not just handed down to humans as it is now from God. It is an uncomfortable truth for some, but the truth is not there to comfort you. Now, I do not generalize about Christians, as I know some very good Christians. The irony comes in the fact that I know professed witches and atheists who are more Christ-like than some Christians. The one verse that people need to know is Matthew 7:12. "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." The rest is either contradiction, antiquated, or commentary.

[JeffXeno]

Originally Posted by V.R.Goh

Jeff, now you know why I avoid having religious discussions with Christian fundies. They frustrate me.

For example, I do not recall where on Youtube I saw this, but a guy was holding a sign that read "Everything I need to know about Islam, I learned on 9/11." Based on that, all one needs to know about Christianity can be learned from the Westboro Baptist Church (the "God Hates F**s" people), Jerry Fallwell (who blamed gays, pagans, feminists, abortionists, and the ACLU for 9/11), Ann Coulter (who said in regard to Muslim countries that "we should invade their countries, kill their leaders, and convert them to Christianity"), and Kirk Cameron (who edited Charles Darwin to make it look creationist). People who call themselves Christians, yet will kill abortion doctors to protect the unborn, are violating one of their religion's very tenets: thou shalt not kill. If they want to protect, for example, the sanctity of marriage, they should start with the high divorce rate among straight couples instead of criminalizing same-sex marriage. Although, they should also keep in mind that, originally, marriage was more like a business merger than the union of two loving people. What some people may or may not realize is that there is only one difference between fundamentalist Christians and fundamentalist Muslims: the book they call holy.

As to the Bible, it has been translated, re-translated, badly translated, copied, re-copied, poorly copied, and edited over the course of over two millenia. It was not just handed down to humans as it is now from God. It is an uncomfortable truth for some, but the truth is not there to comfort you. Now, I do not generalize about Christians, as I know some very good Christians. The irony comes in the fact that I know professed witches and atheists who are more Christ-like than some Christians. The one verse that people need to know is Matthew 7:12. "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." The rest is either contradiction, antiquated, or commentary.

I remember our good friend Arpeejay was quite uncomfortable when I started this thread. Everyone kept telling him this was the correct forum for the topic, but I think that was never Richard’s concern. I think he was more concerned about the futile effort, personal frustrations, and hurt feelings that always follow such topics. And he was right, but I don’t care. I have to be polite, and pretend their religious insanity is rational every goddamn place I go, but I’ll be damned if I’m going to tolerate their stupid shit here.

These crazy assed fundamentalist Christians actually believe their religion is the reason for modern society, when in fact, their religion has never done anything but resist and retard human progress. What did Christianity bring to modern civilization? The Dark Ages, some really impressive cathedrals, and resistance to every new human discovery and idea that conflicted with their stupid fucking book.

Who resisted the knowledge that the Earth revolves around the Sun, instead of the other way around? Conservative Christians did, because the book says the Earth is at the center of the universe. Who resisted the abolishment of slavery? Conservative Christians did, because slavery was condoned in the bible. Ku Klux Klan? Southern conservative Christians. That’s right boys and girls; the KKK was a conservative Christian organization just like Focus on the Family. Who resisted women’s suffrage? Conservative Christians did, because the book says they must be subservient to their husbands. Who resisted, and are still fucking resisting the scientific fact of evolution? Conservative Christians do, that’s who, because the stupid fucking book says we were made from dirt. Poof, it’s magic! Yeah, that’s a much better answer than science.

The hardest part for me to remember is that it really does have nothing to do with intelligence, although intelligence does inversely correlate with religiosity. Many people are just indoctrinated from birth; they’ve heard the stories all their life, and have never once stopped to question them (many people get their politics the same way). Some people turn to religion during some personal, emotional life event, or in lieu of drugs or alcohol addiction. The fact that religion can replace drug addiction is not a sign that it is true; it is a sign that it’s another goddamn addiction.

How can one human brain hold on to conservative Christian beliefs, and be a comfortable, self accepting gay man? If mental gymnastics were an Olympic event, pulling that off would definitely score a 10, or maybe an 11.

I could easily ramble on, but I have other things I need to do. If you are a conservative Christian who has been offended by what I have written here, then I suggest you take a very close look at your own beliefs. Have you ever once asked yourself why you believe what you believe. Chances are, you don’t know why, and the reason my words make you angry or uncomfortable is because deep down, you don’t honestly know why you believe that stuff, and you know I’m right.

Regards,
Jeff

[MuscleHintz]

Originally Posted by JeffXeno

OK, I want to come back to this issue, and I have created a Google poll to gather some information. I do not know who answers what question which way because I cannot see that data. Google would seem to know more that than I. All I get is a spread sheet with the participants answers. I think the data might be interesting to many of the people who post here at The Evolution Forums.

I will eventually share all the data collected via this poll right here on this thread. I hope we get many people to responde so that we can have the most data.

Thanks,
Jeff

Please take the poll by clicking the following link. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...MlFXdzVfTmc6MQ

I couldn't complete the poll because of a lack of a reincarnation option for the afterlife. For shame!

[JeffXeno]

Originally Posted by MuscleHintz

I couldn't complete the poll because of a lack of a reincarnation option for the afterlife. For shame!

Damn! Oh well, just consider it a type of afterlife, and go from there.

Seriously though, this spread sheet that is being collected by the poll is interesting, but the date and format don't lend themselves to the easy creation of pretty charts and graphs.

I think what is needed is for the data to eventually be dumped into some database app, which would then let us look at it in more interesting way. I've never been much of a database guy, and have no database software installed on any of my computers. If anyone has Access or MySQL or whatever, and would have to time of import the data and give us a break-down, that would be great. If not, I'll just update the PDF of the spread sheet every so often.

Remember if you don't want to post your offer of assistance here, you can send me a private message.

Jeff

[vector]

Originally Posted by V.R.Goh

The irony comes in the fact that I know professed witches and atheists who are more Christ-like than some Christians.

I do know what you mean, but I do think that saying atheists/agnostics/whatever are more Christ-like then Christians is, imho, a silly statement. As I see and think of it, moral and ethic values are driven by your own being and conciousness, although they can be heavily shaped by one's education, society, culture and beliefs.

In saying that someone is more "Christ-like", you are pre-setting a moral standard to each you are comparing yourself and others. I for one, reject any comparison to someone who might have, or not, existed as a Messiah, and ruled by values that are two thousand years old. In fact I don't even understand why is it that religious people think that they are self-empowered with a higher stand of morality, because morality and ethics were not "created" by religion, they have always and will always exist regardless your faith.

And for me that's the problem with religion. I wouldn't give a shit if religious people didn't tried to always push down your throath, their dogmatic values over people that simply don't agree with the same point of view. Specially when they have such autistic values, in today's social context. You want to believe in an teapot orbiting between Earth and Mars??? Fine! do it! not my business! Just leave moral and ethics out of it!

And now for something completely different!

It's...

*insert Monty Python's Flying Circus opening theme here*

Richard Dawkins Hate Mail!

PS-for those that didn't got the teapot reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell's_teapot

[JeffXeno]

I did catch your Russell teapot reference, and I guess I have to agree with your comments about "Christ-like", which I too have used. It is hard to get away from the cultural side of it; it's freaking everywhere.

Also, as clarification, I used the term conservative religion many times. A synonym might be orthodox. Liberal religions take very non-literal approach to their holy book, and are usually aligned with the more politically progressive movements. In America, many of the ignorant, God fearing, church going, Bible believing Christians who are the ones you normally see on TV bitching about the gays, feminists, or some other group they disapprove of, often consider the liberal Christians as not true Christians. And don't even try to explain the "No True Scotsman" fallacy to them cause all you'll get is a vacant look.

Dawkins' hate mail is hilarious. Thanks for the laugh.

[vector]

Originally Posted by JeffXeno

It is hard to get away from the cultural side of it; it's freaking everywhere.

So true, and even though I have some moral standards that I know are just unreasonable and driven by emotional thinking, I just can't get away from them, due to cultural immersion. But probably that might not be religion at all, it may come from our animal heritage, that was translated into human morality, and by consequence, into religion as well.

As a side note, I would also like to add, that in your poll, I do think that you could have broaden the scope about "How important is your religion to you" question. Obviously, I'm not a religious person, since I don't have any religion, but I do feel that religion is of the utmost importance to me, since it affects directly my life, in ways I can't control and without my choice.

Whenever there's a discussion about gay rights, same sex marriage or adoption, the Catholic Church always tries to muscle its agenda into state affairs. And I'm not only speaking about LGBT rights here... When you have a world religious leader, that represents the most spreaded religion in the world, that says and I quote "Condoms helps AIDS to spread", I'm sorry I just can't cross my arms and not feel outraged by it. I just can't stand such hypocrisy...

And that's why I don't think that arguing about Religion issues should be avoided like so many have suggested earlier on this thread. The forum is not in its nature directed to these concerns ofc, but I see it as a perfectly valid thread under the Off-topic sub-forum.

Originally Posted by JeffXeno

Dawkins' hate mail is hilarious. Thanks for the laugh.

I always like to see that video whenever I engage in theological discussions, just to chuckle a bit ^^.

Cheers!

[V.R.Goh]

Here's a theory I had. If Christ were to return to this mortal sphere today, I think many of the Christians of today would call him a dangerous socialist and would try to crucify him. He would likely find good company in people of other religions, people of no religion, and the few Christians (mostly educated young people) who actually get the whole "love thy neighbor" message. Contrary to what many Christians believe, it is possible to follow Christ's message (love thy neighbor as thyself, do unto others as you would have them do unto you, etc.) without going to church every Sunday.

To me, God is all around us and in every single one of us. This is a concept called pantheism. Faith can be a good thing, but one should balance it with reason. To quote Ben Franklin, "the way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason." Have faith that things will get better, then go out and make them better. Treat others no better and no worse than how you would want them to treat you.

Simple, right?

[JeffXeno]

Originally Posted by vector

As a side note, I would also like to add, that in your poll, I do think that you could have broaden the scope about "How important is your religion to you" question. Obviously, I'm not a religious person, since I don't have any religion, but I do feel that religion is of the utmost importance to me, since it affects directly my life, in ways I can't control and without my choice.

Whenever there's a discussion about gay rights, same sex marriage or adoption, the Catholic Church always tries to muscle its agenda into state affairs. And I'm not only speaking about LGBT rights here... When you have a world religious leader, that represents the most spreaded religion in the world, that says and I quote "Condoms helps AIDS to spread", I'm sorry I just can't cross my arms and not feel outraged by it. I just can't stand such hypocrisy...

And that's why I don't think that arguing about Religion issues should be avoided like so many have suggested earlier on this thread. The forum is not in its nature directed to these concerns ofc, but I see it as a perfectly valid thread under the Off-topic sub-forum.

Cheers!

As far as the Poll goes, quite a few of the Nones (Agnostic or Atheist) have selected somewhat or very important. I assumed they meant exact what you said; they are not religious, but consider religion an important issue because other people beliefs impact society at large.

I wish there were more places I could argue about religion. I have worked with a few extremely bright guys who home school their children to make sure the kids are not taught evolution is science class. Well they didn't want the kids to learn about evolution, and I assumed they also didn't want their kids to learn that mommy and daddy are nut-jobs teaching them nonsense.

Jeff