The "Nigger" Problem

[Hoosier Daddy]

First, let me apologize for the inflammatory way I entitled this thread. I did so simply to get people to take a look at OUR take on the many facetted issue surrounding this word.

?Words have meanings; specific words have specific meanings.? - Ayn Rand

In the posting Muscle Club pt3, the author uses the word ?Nigger? within the dialog of the story. In the responses to the post, another member expressed his displeasure with the use of the dreaded ?N - word.? The posts which followed brought this cloth-eared yet unfinished discussion to our forum. I figure it is a good topic and the members of this forum ought to have some interesting and perhaps new views to express. So I?m posting it here.

In case you?re wondering, I feel this particular word has become muddled in its meanings and has only a negative impact to the reader. If I or anyone could declare a word dead, this one would fade from use completely. It will never leave the lexicon. If you must use it in your writing, use it sparingly like profanity. It has no place in polite conversation.

I feel that double standards are always wrong. To say that it is only one racially defined group which may partake in a particular activity is wrong. Whether that activity is using a particular word or drinking from a particular fountain.

If you want to know what I feel is the best use of the word, watch Dustin Hoffman in "Lenny."

[xythan_shadow]

This is always always a touchy subject.

There's no real good way to go about this. Some people will always see the word with a negative connotation, some people will brush it off as a slang word and yet more people will see it as something only one group can use without insulting the person in reference.

Do you know how hard it is to explain this to someone that doesn't understand other views? It's not easy to do without offending someone. But, in truth, the word is used in daily conversation between young black people as much as the word fuck and shit, and it has no negative connotation therin.

I don't even know where I'm going with this. I try not to use the word at all, but I have no issues about trying to be PC.

[CelticMuscle]

what the folllowing groups of people think of the use of the word "nigger / nigga" in the context of rap songs / videos:

Upper Class White Males
Lower Class Black Males
White Teenagers
Black Teenagers
Black Women

[glammaman2000]

kids up where I live(Washington HeightsNYC)use nigga to mean"GUY",even in reference to white people.The best was when I heard a young chinese woman;all hip-hopped out;flip out her cell-phone&yell"Wassup,my nigga!"with a heavy chinese accent as a greeting!I can't get used to it.I still don't like the usage"queer".

[Pete Bone]

Sure but at least niger comes from something related. Isn't it a bastardize verson of Negro, which means black? Queer just means fucked up.
Pete

[funboy]

Thanks Hoosier Daddy, for bringing this discussion here. An aside from the use of the word "nigger" - since when does queer mean "fucked up". That's a new one on me.

Here are the standard definitions of queer:
1. not usual: not usual or expected
2. eccentric: eccentric or unconventional
3. suspicious: arousing suspicion
4. nauseated: slightly unwell, especially nauseated or faint
5. offensive term: an offensive term meaning gay

Maybe I am out of the loop, but I never before heard the use of the word queer to mean fucked up. If that is a variant, thanks for the enlightenment. Certainly is a nicer way of saying it (of course you always have the infamous FUBAR).

Anyway - back to the use of the word nigger. Again - sorry, in my world this word is just plain unacceptable. There is such a deep-seated history of the term in an extremely degrading way by a powerful majority. This was often followed up with usually unwarranted (other than to keep subjugated) violence, severe injury and even death to the subject(s) of the term. I must disagree that its usage today has become a non-issue. Anyone who has personal experience and a sense of the personal dignity of a human being can not help but to be offended by the use of this term. Believe me - the world watched (and that in itself is a shame - we watched and did not do much) in horror at the treatment of black people in the US.

Please don't tell me that this is all history today. I have traveled extensively throughout the US and can assure you that it is not just history. In many places the hatred is bubbling just beneath the surface (even in supposedly progressive, liberal Southern California). Why? That I can not answer. I just know it is there (and exists to some extent in Canada too). Believe me, after being in Atlanta many times, I was disgusted that the Summer Olympics were brought to this city - a massive event where many participants from African nations had to attend to realize their own Olympic aspirations. Having been to Atlanta recently, I know for certain that though there are many wonderful people there with no racial discrimination of any kind - there is also a huge proportion of people there who quietly hate or detest "niggers" for no other reason than "that's the way it always was and that's the way it should be. But, damn it, we have to keep this hidden."

I could go on for an extended time - but what is the point? If you believe that use of the word nigger is a non-issue and no different than any other form of slang, it is doubtful that anything I can say here will change your mind. But I am pretty certain that Martin Luther King would never have accepted this word as a common term for any people.

[glammaman2000]

"Language shapes thought".It's one of the underlying messages in Tolkien's work.I don't think"nigga"is helpful."Queer"to me still means"odd";if homosexuality is an acceptable minority variation;like red hair.&I can't imagine that"goin'to the fuckin'store for some fuckin'milk but the fuckin'cashier...."isn't different from goin'to the store to get some milk but the cashier..."nigga"seems to serve some kind of function akin to Italo-American"gavone"or Hispanic"gabron";i.e.,"We recognize you as someone from the neighborhood,but don't attempt to rise above your'place'".

[funboy]

Glammaman 2000 - I am not a prude or lost in some Victorian world. I agree with you on the evolution of speech patterns. "Fuckin this and that" seems to have become a common part of our language and means nothing different than the same phrase without the word fuckin included. However, I myself would limit my use of the word as it seems to be used superfluously and only for shock value - therefore useless to me unless that's what I desire (shock value). Overuse diminishes its shock value! :-)

Nigger is different. It has a history - not of profanity but of pure derogatory connotations. I would be happy if it were eliminated from our vocabulary completely. I find it no different than the use of "those fucking Jews - let?s just send them to the gas chambers". To me, the most horrifying thing in the world is the way we choose to treat each other followed in a close second by the way we choose to justify it.

[wrestlejock646]

I'm with you there, guys---the use of the "N" word is one that my liberal brain won't wrap around as part of my vocabulary. Like the "C" word--its just plain old derogatory and disrespectful, in my mind. However, having lived in Harlem for the last 5 years, I hear variations on it ("nigga, niggaz, etc.) all the time by men and women of color.

To me, it comes down to authenticity--I don't think persons of color really use the term "nigger" as greetings to one another. If the author wanted to be more precise and accurate, he'd spell it "nigga" with the plural being "niggaz," which really has an entirely different meaning in urban slang. Just my opinion, but if you think its a small difference not worth haggling over, come to Harlem and yell both versions out while you walk down the street.

[funboy]

Thanks for bringing this dicussion here Hoosier Daddy. But it doesn't appear to germinate a great deal of point and counterpoint - althought there were a lot of "viewers". You would think out of 170+ views we might have obtained a few more than 8 comments, particularly when some comments are from the same individuals. But I guess that's a commentary on the nature if the world today - let's look , but keep ourselves sterile from the discussion itself. What if our neighbours knew how we felt about thses kind of things!!!??

[johnd]

Funboy, as the writer who started this whole discussion, let me make one point. I was trying to write a story with the characters talking the way actual high school kids talk. I wasn't trying to make moral judgments about whether this speech was right or wrong. As others have pointed out, this speech is a fact of life today. (I think it is somewhat trivial to distinguish between nigger and nigga.) Do I speak that way? Of course not. Do I think it is appropriate in ordinary conversation? Of course not. But do black kids talk that way to each other? Yes they do.

[funboy]

Well, I have been away for a few days, but now back to re-enter the "fray". Still diappointed in the number of views versus those who chose to express themselves by posting.

Johnd - I accept your point. I am sure (about 100% positive) that you have a much greater appreciation of the current use of the word among the black youth of today than do I. However - I also find it sad that the black youth of today - proud of their heritage as they should be - choose to use a word that was stolen (from a very trivial meaning) to be used in a grossly demeaning way and combined with subjugation and death for people of their race just because they were different from the powerful (white) majority.

As my father once taught me - if all your friends went over the cliff into the canal and drowned - would that be right for you to follow them? If you do, then you are a lemming, not a human being and certainly not the man I thought I raised And yet, my father has an unabiding hatred of "niggers" which to this day (at 80 years of age) I still try to convince him he is wrong.

I remember being on the golf course one day (1st tee) with some very good friends and clients (and I was paying for everything). One of them told a "nigger" joke. As everyone laughed, including the group behind us, I told them all I failed to see the humour in the joke. They gave me a hard time and I left the course without ever teeing off. I lost all three clients - but I did not care. I choose not to accept a derogratory term for any group - although I do draw the line for terrorists. And it is fun sometimes to poke a little bit of fun at Yanks in general. :-)

But the world needs to lighten up and laugh - and get rid of some really derogatory terms from its lexicon.

[mike469104]

Wow, great reading guys - inspired me to join in. There is one marked difference that I would like to risk adding - among all the opressed, persecuted, degrated peoples of our history and times, how many have propogated and embraced the use of said "offensive" terms in regads to themselves? When is the last time you heard "what up kike?", or "I'm down with that spick!". As for the nigga, and niggaz, vs. nigger - I think that has a lot more to do with the reformation of pronounciation of proper English than a choice of meaning. "Sounds" like some folks need to blame themselves for the confusion. I'm just "being real".

[funboy]

Interesting that you have nothing to say since Hi-jacking this conversation over to the off-topic boards. Was that your only purpose? No big deal. just curious.

[funboy]

I have dealt with that topic befiore. I think the adoption of the term by the abused minority is simply an attempt to reduce its impact and power when used by others.

Added Edit: Mar 7, 2006 - sorry Mike - I somewhat overlooked your point. You are right about "kike and spick" not having been used in the same fashion (to my knowledge anyway), but certainly queer, fag and homo have been adopted by the gay community in the same fashion.

[newmus]

nigger is a derogatory word and is ONLY taaken as such

nigga is a derogatory word that taken as such by only a segment of the population.

others view the word with that spelling possitely. that my friends is BULLSHIT. in moments of anger that word is used in a less than possitive conotation. it is used for friends love ones and enemies. yet only black people may use it. that may have been o.k. 20-30 years ago but the world is a drasticly smaller place i.e. most japanese people don't understand and would not understand why blacks may use the word but they may not. to them and everyone else it becomes hypocracy on the part of black people that is why i no longer use it with my own friends and family.

and i find its use by white writers put in the mouths of black characters as not an attempt at realism but an excuse to get away with they're own racism with out being called a racist.

[funboy]

I understand what you are saying and appreciate where you are coming from - but please don't accuse all white writers of being racist if they use that word in an attempt at realism. Some of them may very well be - some may be misguided, and some may be just trying for honesty about what they see in the real world.

I still don't agree with the use of the word at all and will always try my best to work towards its removal (and other similarly offensive words and phrases) from our language. But making such a broad statement about all writers who use the word is inflammatory and akin to another kind of racism. Let's discuss things calmly and all try to get along. If each of us continuously does our own small part, the world will (albeit slowly) become a better place.

[funboy]

From the Cambridge Dictionary of American English, I offer this definition "This is an extremely offensive word when used to or about a black person by a person who is not black." Double standards or ??

Just to clarify things - the original word from which "nigger" is thought to derive is the Latin adjective niger, meaning black - although many think it originated from the Spanish word Negro which meant black person. It was originally used by white people for ALL non-white peoples from all over the world - and in a "relatively" friendly way. That's why it may not be surprising to hear a Chinese girl flip up her cell phone and talk to another Chinese person and say "What's up my nigger, or nigga?". In the attempt to learn the English language many people will fall back on textbook definitions of terms.

In the early days of use in the United States, the word was NOT derogatory - it simply meant what it said; a black person or non-white person. As the US subjugated the African people and used them as slaves, and as rebellions arose and "had" to be quelled violently, "nigger" became a word of hatred and was always used in a derogatory sense usually to mean less than human or uncivilized beast. There was never anything friendly about it after that.

And now, in closing, from another perspective - the word nigger is actually found in use in an olde English term "a nigger in the woodpile meaning a hidden cause of trouble". It referred to the metaphor of finding a "black stick in your woodpile". As Arte Johnson (I think that was his name) would have said "verrrrry interesting, no?"

[Hoosier Daddy]

Originally Posted by funboy

Interesting that you have nothing to say since Hi-jacking this conversation over to the off-topic boards. Was that your only purpose? No big deal. just curious.

Sorry it took so long to get back. I've been out of town.

I have often read a story and passed up the comments on the story. This happened more often before I was one of the writers hoping for comments. I saw the interesting things being said and wanted to hear what others would have to say. Did any of you see this here but might not have seen it as the comments on a story?


Allow me to revise my previous statement. Perhaps the only place for this word is inpolite conversation but never in reference to a person, only in speaking about the word as a part of our language. It has had a clorful history (pardon the pun).

By the way, What did you think of Crash winning Best Picture?

[newmus]

Originally Posted by funboy

I understand what you are saying and appreciate where you are coming from - but please don't accuse all white writers of being racist if they use that word in an attempt at realism. Some of them may very well be - some may be misguided, and some may be just trying for honesty about what they see in the real world.

I still don't agree with the use of the word at all and will always try my best to work towards its removal (and other similarly offensive words and phrases) from our language. But making such a broad statement about all writers who use the word is inflammatory and akin to another kind of racism. Let's discuss things calmly and all try to get along. If each of us continuously does our own small part, the world will (albeit slowly) become a better place.

not all black people speak that way and one can write a perfectly legitimate dialogue without the use of that word. and i didn't say all white writers, my statement was a generalization. and although i'll accept that some may be misguided or trying for honesty i think that they are few and far between - but i could be wrong....

[funboy]

Originally Posted by newmus

not all black people speak that way and one can write a perfectly legitimate dialogue without the use of that word. and i didn't say all white writers, my statement was a generalization. and although i'll accept that some may be misguided or trying for honesty i think that they are few and far between - but i could be wrong....

I agree with you Newmus - a perfectly legitimate dialogue can be written without the use of the word. Given it's tragic and degrading history - I see no reason to include it, even for "the sake of realism". Nor do I see a legitimate use for the word itself in other than polite conversation - say to discuss its history, as pointed out by Hoosier Daddy. Even its use by blacks with/to other blacks does not justify its continued inclusion in our language. And your follow-up comment is much better - expresses your honest opinion (which means it can be challenged with reason and evidence, and confirmed as correct or changed if needed) as opposed to a generalization. You are correct - you did not say all white writers, but you did say all white writers who use the word. See - we got along better just by talking some more and found further common ground.

Once again - after all that has been said; The world will be a better place if we all lighten up a bit and not take ourselves too seriously. The Past is the Past and we need to focus on building a better and equal future for everyone. Maybe we should realize that God was just having some fun with us and is seriously disturbed at where we took it! Or maybe God's sick of us and put Peter in charge - so things are really screwed up. Just having some fun.

[nj.]

I just want to say that one shouldn't be offended by a word, but by the way it is said.

[Hoosier Daddy]

I think that all of you who have picked up this thread have been fantastic. This kind of intelligent discussion is really refreshing and encouraging. I have heard many things said about most races. I have even been called a nigger myself. I found this as odd as being called a "redneck cocksucker." However, I will offer this thought: Of all the vile hatred I have heard spewed forth by asholes, none is as appalling as hearing remarks of 'normal' people reflecting casual racism.

In my own opinion - the only race is Human.

[funboy]

(Please pardon this language which I wouldn't normally use, it is only for the moment and effect while making this point) So what if I say, in a completely nice tone of voice and with a most sincere looking smile on my face, that "you are a complete, fucking asshole and a waste of skin". Is that acceptable because the words don't mean anything as I was nice about it or didn't "appear" to mean anything nasty? They are only words. I think you need to give that position some thought.

Words are among the deadliest weapons of the human race, because as intelligent (supposedly) beings we know how to commit severe destruction and hurt with the most innocuous of things - simple words. Perhaps everyone should go read Flow 17 and Jake's run-in with Vincent - why he is called "The Knife". He only uses words.

Remember - words can be devastating both because of the intent of the user or the perception of the listener - or just because some words are meant to be purely devastating or purely uplifting. Try misinterpreting "Joy".

The word “nigger” attained a devastating meaning not only for the way it was used, but also its association with violence and death for a subjugated people for such an extended time. Similarly the word “Nazi” became associated with evil and a terrible part of world history called the Holocaust. We need to get on with things and lay the past to rest so we can build our future together (as the Human Race, like Hoosier Daddy said), but not by sanitizing words and pretending their past did not exist. Time to forgive and go forward, but we cannot forget, as the lessons would then go unlearned by future generations.

[funboy]

Forgive me for not responding to your query about "Crash" but I normally wait for movies to come out on DVD or the Movie Network. I rarely go to the theatre (except live performances) so I could not voice an intelligent opinion.

And thanks for bringing this topic here for a most enjoyable discussion. I am sorry if I over-contributed and dominated the thread. However - like you, I found the opinions expressed fascinating and intelligent.

[Ogun]

On the one hand I find it upsetting, though I didn't read the story. On the other hand, if the writer wanted to put it there it's his choice.Sriking the balce between free speech and protecting minorities is tough. Remember, too, that someone's likely to offend you every day- we've got to accept that. And "vincent' is a part of us. Whether we risse above him or accept him is our choulce, and some would say to take turns betwen the two. One has to feed the evil in oneself as much as the good. I believe that if you ignore it it will rise up to destroy you.

[Rowan]

Okay, I've been following this thread for a while, but when one of my characters was mentioned to make a point, I figured it was time to jump in.

First-- I don't like the word, I don't use the word, I don't write the word. I HAVE, however, heard the word.

It happens every day in conversation, so what does a writer do when he wants to capture that conversation on paper?

No idea.

I do know that dialect of any kind is wicked hard to write, and when it's attempted you run the risk of horrendous stereotyping. Not many people can do it well, and I think the rule of thumb is to use 'proper' English, pay attention to rhythm, and use slang sparingly. I have fallen short on all of these on numerous occasions. lol.

As for the word that is the subject of this thread: I think how you spell it matters. I think how you use it matters. I think if you're going to write it down somewhere, then what you write should matter, too.

{hops off soap box}

That said, thanks to everyone willing to talk about this very complex issue.

-- Rowan

[Xyggurat]

I'm actually of a different mind than the average homo on this subject. We tend to be a predominantly liberal group on this board: that makes sense. Homosexuals tend to espouse liberal values because the Republican party has abandoned us. Writers tend to espouse liberal values because they think.

This isn't a slam against Conservatives. I happen to be one.

Yes, I'm rambling. Onward.

These words have only the power that people lend to them. There's a great amount of history instilled into the word "nigger." Racial violence, oppression, etc. My feeling is this: let's move beyond it.

I don't fall into the "racism doesn't exist if we ignore it" school of thought. But being offended by the word when it is not directed at a person in a harmful way is silly. The word has no power if you do not allow it that power.

I've used the term "faggot" in both of my stories in a derogatory fashion. I've been called a faggot by some of my friends, jokingly. While I'm sure that it has been used by people who were beating homosexuals to death (which was the unfortunate context for the term's use in "Shift") it doesn't offend me personally unless said with hatred.

At the heart of all this is something that I mentioned when the honorable Mssr. Ogun described his horror at Blackbird's story "Altered Reality." These are stories. They're not reality. I condone the use of some pretty questionable themes in stories (barebacking, for one) that I would never support in the real world. There is a marked difference between a theme and an action in real life.

Finally, I'd like to point out one issue I consider to be major. We, as human beings, love to have something to rail about. We become offended by situations like this not because they have an absolute negativity to them, but because something in our personal conscience resonates--call it guilt, empathy, whatever--with the issue. We abhor violence so much because part of our psyche is fascinated with it. Otherwise, we would greet it with cool disinterest. The word "nigger" offends us so much because we as humans have an innate tendency to separate ourselves from others and dehumanize them and their needs, even as society forces us to work together.

This is all a matter of semi-informed opinion. I'd nonetheless urge you all to consider what, exactly, is bothering you about the word's use. Is it history, or something internal, that reacts so viscerally?

-X-

[funboy]

Quotes (in dark color) are from Xyggurat's Post

"Writers tend to espouse liberal values because they think." [COLOR="Blue"]So someone who does not espouse liberal values does not think?[/COLOR]

"These words have only the power that people lend to them." [COLOR="blue"]So the power taken by those who use the words and abuse them is not real since I, or others like me, choose not to give them any power? Perhaps for the word itself - but when backed up by force and death I tend to think the power is real.[/COLOR]

"But being offended by the word when it is not directed at a person in a harmful way is silly. The word has no power if you do not allow it that power." [COLOR="blue"]So if I say as a generality that the best nigger is a dead one (forgive my use of this phrase) - there is no harm since I did not direct it at a person in a harmful way. It was just an innocent opinion with no power? And as I campaign to try and win over others to support my position and take action there is still no power there because the subjects of my hatred do not give power to my words? Hitler would have loved you and the extermination of the Jewish people depended (to a certain extent) on that very same reaction among those who were not taken![/COLOR]

"I've used the term "faggot" in both of my stories in a derogatory fashion. I've been called a faggot by some of my friends, jokingly. While I'm sure that it has been used by people who were beating homosexuals to death (which was the unfortunate context for the term's use in "Shift") it doesn't offend me personally unless said with hatred." [COLOR="blue"]I have dealt with this aspect (of adoption of a term by the abused minority) a few times in previous posts.[/COLOR]

"These are stories. They're not reality. I condone the use of some pretty questionable themes in stories (barebacking, for one) that I would never support in the real world. There is a marked difference between a theme and an action in real life." [COLOR="blue"]And of course a simple story has no real power and can never incite the world into action. You need to give that position a GREAT deal more thought.[/COLOR]

"Finally, I'd like to point out one issue I consider to be major. We, as human beings, love to have something to rail about. We become offended by situations like this not because they have an absolute negativity to them, but because something in our personal conscience resonates--call it guilt, empathy, whatever--with the issue. We abhor violence so much because part of our psyche is fascinated with it. Otherwise, we would greet it with cool disinterest." [COLOR="blue"]Slight generalization and over-simplification of the human condition? There was no absolute negativity to the exterminations in Serbia, or Nazi Germany, or Iraq (by Hussein and his religious supporters) - need I continue? You make it sound like we should sit back and accept the world the way it is because to take offence at anything suggests that we have some problem in our personal conscience. Our psyche is fascinated by violence otherwise we would greet it with cool disinterest? I would certainly love to see your cool detachment should your life ever be in direct and immediate jeopardy due to violence.[/COLOR]

"The word "nigger" offends us so much because we as humans have an innate tendency to separate ourselves from others and dehumanize them and their needs, even as society forces us to work together." [COLOR="blue"]Sorry - I disagree on both counts. Humans are, by nature, social animals and we do not tend to separate ourselves from each other unless you get back to the ridiculous racial segregations. In fact, we actively seek out emotional and physical bonds with others. However, when faced with things that seem to overwhelm us and appear beyond our power to change, then we tend to dehumanize those effected because our emotions can not deal with it. This is simply a mental/emotional self-defence mechanism that we need to consciously over-ride for the health of the human race. And society (the way the technological revolution is moving) is forcing/encouraging us to work/live apart. You need to read up on the decline of social living and the term "cocooning". Such study might also yield some additional clues as to why there is such hatred in the Muslim world for Western "civilization" (and I am not advocating terrorism in any way, shape or form).

So much for my uninformed opinions and rambling "lessons of the day".[/COLOR]

[Xyggurat]

Picking apart any piece point by point for the merits of singular sentences and concepts will always yield a battleground's worth of debates.

A) The 'liberal values' bit was a joke. Over it. You should be, too!

Your entire argument stands on legs of your own devising, not what I wrote. Words themselves have no innate power, just as morality is not a universal absolute. You're only proving my point by having to add conditional statements to almost every proof of your argument.

That said, I won't address further deconstructions unless the rhetoric shades into less specious realms.

-X-

[funboy]

My response to your joke was tongue in cheek - but you failed to recognize that yourself. The rest of your comments are almost laughable and are not worthy of further conversation . R.I.P.

PS> Winston Churchill, for one, disagrees with you.

[funboy]

To everyone else out there - let's give this some careful consideration. This is not a vacuous argument. Think about the statement "Words have no power". Is this intended to cover only a word itself or combinations of words? I will acknowledge that MOST words, if you simply let them flop out on the table and lie there, really don't mean much. That's because most of our words were developed for use in combination with others to communicate. But there are some words, even when used solely in their own right, which have great meaning and evoke significant emotions due to the history of their use by people (that?s us).

The more widespread the use, the greater the universal understanding. Never forget that a great deal of our understanding and emotional response to a word is a result of conditioning - and it is this conditioning that provides power to a word. When the conditioning is a result of extreme negativity, hatred and violence over long periods of time - it becomes very difficult, if not impossible, to separate that power from the word.

So I ask again; Words only have power that people lend to them? Do we truly have a choice in the matter? If we do, then words become meaningless because we can each attach individual definitions to every word. This would result in a Tower of Babel WITHIN a language. The argument just does not make sense.

Words have power. Certain words have great power. Carefully chosen combinations of words have extreme power. I can not believe that anyone who writes could possibly believe any different. What is the purpose of creating a story and allowing others to read it if you have no belief that the words you combine will have the power to evoke emotional responses for the readers? Why give a speech? Why say words in eulogy to honour a departed? Why do commanders of armies try to rally their troops (with words) before battle?

Believe me - words have almost ultimate power. That is why we, as an intelligent species, have taken great pain to develop them and why many individuals study language with such intensity - so as to master them. That is why some writers will, at times, agonize over the choice of a specific word that is sweetly perfect for the context. Yet at other times those same writers will find that words and phrases seem to flow freely, almost without thought. That is why some writers' stories seem flat and lifeless, some seem mediocre, and others move us so powerfully.

Words have the power of communication. They have the power to stir our emotions. They have the power of debate, discussion and persuasion. They have the power to unite people around a cause and electrify them into action. And that is a very real power, which may be one of the most powerful in human control. Winston Churchill believed it, so did Alexander the Great, Napolean, Roosevelt, John F Kennedy - the list is endless.

One might respond that these powers depend on the intelligence of their user. That's fine for specific arguments, debates and speeches. But words in and of themselves have power in their own right. The skillful user strives to create a whole that is greater than the sum of its parts. If the parts themselves have no power - then neither can the whole. The sum of nothing is nothing and to my knowledge only God has been able to create something from nothing. That is the reason for mastery of words. That is the second level of power. The final level of power is the passion of the user.

So give careful thought to the arguments put forth by deceivers or ones who profess to be writers but fail to truly understand the power they may wield - and therefore the havoc they may sow. Every word has power - some very little, others extreme. Some single words have such great power that they may bring pain, or cut like a knife, while others have the power to heal, to soothe or bring peace and joy. Does that depend on the perception of the listener? Perhaps, but that may be a reality which is unavoidable and inseparable from the word itself.

[TJHaugen]

I have only read the original post of this thread, so if someone has expressed these sentiments similar to these, I apologize for my unoriginality.

In my mind, we are one race, the human race, part of one biosystem, the planet earth.

There are words like nigger and faggot that divide us.

There are words like person and human that unite us.

The words you chose are up to you. They have power, even in your imaginings.

Morality may be relative, but think of the world you want to live in and the future you want to help create.

I am watching [COLOR=yellow]The Nazis: A Warning from History[/COLOR] right now. Words do have power.

Peace,
Thor (my given name).
.

[Username3]

I don't think it's that big a deal, but I guess it's still rude to insult someone with that word.

Why can't people just say Black, or chocolate.
The "chocolate" word is kinda silly, to me.

[Lifter73]

First off, the word is inflammatory no matter what the case my be.

Secondly, let's look at the definition of the word... according to the dictionary, the word "Nigger" means stupid person, and that can be anyone of any race, color or creed.

For me, I do not use the word in any context as I consider myself intelligent and educated enough not to use such a vulgar term in communicating with anyone at anytime (and definitely not to get people's attention...that's just ignorant), and don't get me started on the juvenile and dumb behavior of friends referring to each other as "yo, that's my n----er"

Strive to be better and rise above the mediocrity!

D

[fillups44]

Hi I know this is an old thread but I do have to add my two cents. Not so much the use of the word but about censoring in general.

First the "N" word is a hard word for me personally to deal with. It feels like an open wound of hatred.

Having said that, I really, really hate the idea of censoring any word (I'm not talking about polite conversation here--which is naturally censored). The idea of a word being stricken because we find it offensive is a horrible (if good intentioned) idea. That path is fruitless and probably does more to keep an offensive word alive than anything else we could do (words do disappear from the language because of dissuse not because we choose them to go away).

Censoring art is pretty much a dead end as well. While I will admit that art has a great capacity to harm and to inspire, we all react differently to different aspects of it. What I find horrifying and offensive might inspire someone else to do great things. Certainly in this forum or elsewhere no matter how much we are offended we should strive to be open minded and realize that all readers are not reading with the same eyes as us and respect their differences. We don't need to shield other readers from stories that disturb or offend us, no matter how deeply.

And while this word has a shared history that is brutal and painful its obvious even with this charged word that many of us react in different ways to it.

We can not stand in and speak for other people's values. The need to do this might stem from a good impulse but it leads no where good. The need to protect people from the offensive is why parents actively shield their children from seeing same sex couples kiss or walk hand in hand.

While it is possible to write anything and convey the idea of it without using any offensive terms (see American movies after the Hays Code but before the 1970s, many episodes of Will & Grace) when a writer chooses to do so he has a specific reason. We can attempt to infer this reason (racism, realism) but we are never the writer and don't know unless the writer explicitly states it. Our judgement is based on our own societal experiences and may have little to do with whoever wrote the story that offends us to our core.

[wolfotehmoon]

Okay, having just turned 18, this'll be my first official post on the Evolution Forums :P How weird that it's on this particular subject. This last year, at the school I just graduated from, 2 white students were pushed down a set of stairs for using the word "nigger", contemptuously, 2 black students during a fistfight they were all involved in(all of them walked away with nothing but a few bruises and a nice, long suspension). This sparked a large discussion at my school, during which I decided to write up a small essay to explain to my white friends why myself and my black friends found it so objectionable for them to use the "N" word. I posted it on Facebook(please, respect my privacy and don't go looking for it, and by extension, myself on there), and, seeing as it fits, I'll post it here. This is just my own personal take on the subject, but my friends found it helpful in understanding my viewpoint.
Warning: It's kinda long. And it also uses some objectionable language(guess which!) :P

Why You Can't Say Nigger(if you're white)

Okay, I'm not going to pretend to understand this issue fully, or to be the authority on it, but I'm going to put forth my best effort in explaining why things are they way they are, or atleast why I believe it's this way.

In case it isn't painfully obvious from the title, I'm gonna try and explain why most black people have a problem with white people saying the word "nigger."
Though it does boil down to "it was the word used by your ancestors when they made my ancestors their slaves," but thinking in simple term such as these takes away from the gravity that drives the black community's loathing for this word.

The best place to start a discussion about a dilemma such as this one would be, of course, the source: the history behind the word. Wikipedia's article provides a nice version of this. Basically, "nigger", originating from several different languages' word for "black", was used as a general term for people of color. At the time, it was not considered especially derogatory, as can be seen in its use in several popular texts of the day.

However, over time, as is evident, the word took on a reputation of being too colloquial, and even offensive. Connotations of inferiority and inhumanity crept into usage of the word, and as terms such as "negro", "colored", "black", and finally "African-American" gained widespread acceptance as politically correct ways to refer to those of African descent, it began to be used almost exclusively derogatorily.

The history of the word does not tell the whole story, however; the history of blacks in America specifically (for the word was used elsewhere, but obviously does not cause the same amount of uproar when used here, today, when compared to other places) provides interesting insight into why the word "nigger" hurts us as a whole. First and foremost, blacks are the ONLY ethnic group to be brought to this country (in such great numbers) against their will. This is important to consider; regardless of what you might think as an individual, it is a truth that will not go away, and is constantly on the collective mind of this country's black community. There is a certain shame that comes with being regularly reminded, from a young age, that your ancestors were nothing more than beasts of burden to this country. It is a shame that lowers expectations and confers upon you a feeling of inferiority.

Truth be told, I wish that we COULD just forget about all the past atrocities associated with this word: the lynchings and whippings and denial of human dignity. But unfortunately, the continued use of the word, and the continued tension of race relations in this country forbids it. As long as there are people who would recall these dark days to beat down descendants of those affected, it seems that there must be those who would do so to strengthen resolve. Please, make no mistake: purposely or not, the idea that blacks, and minorities in general, are inferior still sits in the collective mind of whites as well as the aforementioned. It has nothing to do with an individual's personal history in this country; it is a general, pervasive mindset that, evidently, still haunts us.

Now, like I said, this has nothing to do with your personal history. As an individual, obviously, you have most likely had nothing to do with the history I've described above. And, barring a handful of people, you are probably not actively involved in anything that someone would deem racist. However, there still sits that inferiority complex that we've accrued as a people, that use of the word "nigger" brings back the ideas and horrible doings of the time when the ghosts of the past were flesh and blood. And, apparently, that is what it's meant to do. It is opening old wounds, and conjuring old spirits. This is why we ask you not to use this word.

As a final note, I know that one of the first things that will be mentioned is the use of the term by black people themselves. This is an attempt by the black community to reclaim the word as a badge of honor. I do not know if this is courageous or misguided; it seems to be a mix of both. I do know one thing, though: it is a situation that the black community itself must resolve. As with any other rebuilding process, such as those in various countries after WWII, outside help is welcome, but the resolution must come from within. (Personally, I believe that this is one of the things plagueing the African continent; aid must not be given alone, but allowed to be combined with native ingenuity and labor to create a sustainable system, I would think... But I digress) Certainly, those of you who say that its use by us condones its use by yourselves are not helpful at all.

I will end this here. I hope you come away with this with a better understanding of where I'm coming from in this discussion. If you come away with any revelations, I hope you apply it to your relations with people of EVERY race; a Salvadorian is not Mexican, for example.

I'm not quite sure if this is complete, and I feel I might add to it or change it if I read over it later... But here's where I stand.


I also added some comments later on after reading my friends' responses:

Thanks for your feedback, everyone. Yes, I agree that use of the word by the black community is hypocritical. I don't know if you've heard about it, but a large amount of people in the community ARE doing what they can to urge people to stop using the word. So, change is being made; it's just slow.
As for not being slave owners, or not having ancestors who were slave owners, I think you missed my point about that. What I was trying to say was that it is not something personal: by taking offense at use of the word, I'm not insinuating that you're racist, or that you were somehow connected to slavery in any way. So, it's not really a personal thing; it's a reaction that comes from the history of blacks in America and usage of the word by people of races other than my own. I can't know that you're not trying to convey that sort of meaning through use of the word, if you're not black. Of course, a black person could be using the word derogatorily, also.
It just seems like there's a lessened chance, so I'm SLIGHTLY more comfortable hearing it from them.
It doesn't mean it's right, though. Think of it this way: you see your friend's parents being abusive to them, and them being abusive, in turn, to their siblings. Do you decide to be abusive to them and you siblings, in an effort to show them that they're wrong in their actions? No. You either keep your observations to yourself, or, if you're close, you try to explain that this action is hurtful to you to see.
Also, some people have told me that they felt that, the way I worded things, I was accusing all people who say the word of being racist. Really, I didn't mean it that way. I was just trying to show that people will TAKE it that way, if you're white, regardless of your intent.
Once again, it's not your fault, but it certainly doesn't help going around saying it. Again, this is a problem the black community has to figure out themselves.
I hope that clears things up a bit.
One last thing: I do agree that it would be best to just stop saying the word altogether. That's the first step. I don't think the discussion should necessarily stop just yet, though. E****, I agree: this is our time to heal the wounds of the past. Just as with anything, though, it is never good to forget the facts; forgiveness of the facts, however, is what we should strive for.

So, yeah. That's about it. It was written up the space of a couple of hours, inside the Facebook message window, so it IS a bit messy, but I think it works... What a first post, huh? :P

[agreatguy6]

I'm not sure if i've posted in here or not (pretty sure i haven't)

I personally don't believe anyone should use it.

For some reason (understandably) afromericans (as i lovingly call my black friends, they're kay with it) are offended by the term.
As my grandfather (a fairly racist person in his own right) defines it as any ignorant person of color. I am of the mind they also find this to be the meaning.
Definition of ignorant?
Someone who wasn't raised properly or didn't get an education.

Warning: I am NOT a racist. I love afromericans just as much as i love jews and white folk and my fellow 1/4th asians as well as 100% asian/pacificislanders (and everyone else)

Now, you hafta admit: the image that many black males give to the outside non-black world isn't very appealing.
and as much as we don't like to lump people, we do anyway.
and the image that many black females give is to be rather on the promiscuous (sp?) side.

I know full well this is not the case for the majority of black/africanamericans. But that majority, loud as they may be, still pay for CDs and watch and see that oh so much louder majority.

which, also not to be racist, brings up another oddity:
why is it that african americans use it in reference to each other?
I certainly wouldn't walk up to someone and be like "HEY, Ignorant!"
and i wouldn't wanna be called that either, or someone would get busted up.

what strikes me odd, is if they're so offended by it, why do they use it?