Jason Grows Up - Part V

[kenstaff]

...........

[tekuno]

You might want to try switching (or additionally posting) to FurAffinity. They will let you set age restrictions on who can view things, they will let you submit text as text, and they don't work themselves into a lather over teenage fictional characters. (They do have rules on the subject, which are in the terms of service, but your story seems to be okay, at least as far as it went here. Anything more you have planned, you'd have to decide for yourself.)

And despite the name, you aren't required to do furry stuff.

Oh, and depending on circumstances, they can be more forthcoming with comments. (Some threads here get lots of comments, some get none, and it doesn't seem to have anything to do with whether people like your stuff or not.) (So don't take silence here as disapproval -- look at how we keep getting multi-year-old threads revived with "is there any more of this", followed immediately by "oh, yeah, me too".)

[kenstaff]

..........

[nnnrg]

OK... Feedback it is. This is from several different stories. I'm posting it here because I can't get it to work right over there.

1) I see what you did with the ages there. That's not a bad solution to the problem.

2) Do not change what you're doing because of this feedback; it is intended to point out something that you are handling, and that I think you're doing a good job in parts at least, but I also want to point out that if you do not already, you will want to consider consciously what the story actually communicates:

Incest is not specifically to my tastes. The father is a bit of a perv, but you point it out and have him being careful not to take it too far... For realism in a story, while the father might find the idea of his son getting powerful to be exciting, it's rare that he'll find it AROUSING. There are some pretty strong instinctive/acculturated barriers to that kind of thing. For example, even though my step-sibling was freaking gorgeous, and theoretically of a build and proportion that should have me horny as all get-out, in actuality, nothing did or could come of it because we were raised together, and that was like an OFF switch to the libido. When that's not true, it's problematic, because incest is not just a social disrupter, it's one of the biggest power-disparities that you can find, and there is no way that it won't end up causing emotional damage in the one who is at the losing end of the disparity; even if there is a PHYSICAL superiority, the relationship-power is in the parent's hands until well into adulthood in most cases.

This is a similarly risky situation for the teacher. While it happens, far too often, in fact it's such a very bad idea for a student and teacher to even BEGIN engaging in sexually suggestive dialogue that it sets off alarms about the teacher. A student who is acting in a sexually predatory way towards a teacher if they're seen doing it, will, almost certainly, end up being expelled, because there is sufficient worry nowadays in most schools, that the teacher has to go out of their way to be in a position where there are no witnesses. Teachers' Aides are not just a good idea for reducing the impact of 30+ student class loads - they're also there to provide a witness in case of students claiming sexual interference from the teacher. Teachers are decreasingly likely to be alone with students without some other adult in eye distance. While I know it happens - it's becoming the exception now.

3) One big thing that I don't generally go for in a story is the whole boastful, self-aggrandizing ego-pig bully thing. It makes no sense to me from a person who is huge, to self-worship and put down people who are not. But that's a part of Jock Mentality that I have never appreciated, when I saw it in real life, because it was usually someone trying to make themselves feel adequate when they weren't. Bullying as a means of social validation, when the bully is insecure about their status. I'm not sure that Jason's treatment of the cheerleaders isn't retaliatory counter-bullying, in some ways.

The flip side of Jock Mentality is when people encourage one another. That, to me, is the sure marker of real strength, and the "worship" scenes where someone, larger or smaller, gets off on the gains that someone has made, is really hot. And I think you've got that in there somewhere, too, which I liked.

4) HAIR... I started out getting hairy at a young age. I don't find it in any way sexy - body hair is itchy, it holds sweat and therefore stinks, and it betrays you by turning GRAY ... in patches ... before any other hair does so. Further, armpit hair texture is like the worst bad-hair-day hair. So, the whole thing of going crazy over the smell and look of hair? Not for me. You make it a bit different, by having it be a modified pheromone caused, presumably, by the growth matrix. But most teen-age boys find body hair gross, at best. Similarly, sweat and musk, not normally part of a teenager's "things to find cool" -- but again, this isn't NORMAL scent.

5) Jason is a teenager. It's probably to be expected that he'll be a bit of a jerk, even when he's trying to be nice, to people who were rude to him before he became a huge giant muscle-monster.

6) Square-cube law! (Just had to say that out loud. I'm assuming that the growth matrix makes the bones and muscle tissue stronger than normally possible.)

[kenstaff]

..........

[iceman75]

Hey Kenstaff, to go further and to expound on what nnnrg has said, I really have enjoyed incest stories, especially when it comes to dads worshiping their son's bodies and strength, so I guess to me, that part doesn't bother me, in fact it turns me on a lot, as does Jason's confidence and need to show off, I loved that he forced the loyal senior boys across to the other side of the aisle, leaving the leader only a few ultra loyal guys, who seemingly are almost immune to Jason's pheromone assault. I think it's all about preferences, nnnrg has a preference against incest and body hair, while I guess judging by the stories we have seen from you, you tend to gravitate towards body hair, which I don't mind. To paraphrase a common modern proverb, write what you're comfortable writing, write what you love, and you'll never work a day in your life.

[Xyggurat]

If I might offer a more personal criticism, I find the posting of the story at mymusclevideo and abuse--not use, but abuse--of the "Post Your Muscle Growth Stories" section to advertise for your presence on another site to be pretty rude. Your reasoning for doing so is absurd. People don't wantonly copy and paste stories from this site on to others. Many of the ones that entered wide proliferation without author permission did so ages ago, and now the only major story archiver, O'Melissokomos, asks for explicit permission.

And this was before the self-aggrandizing demands for people to comment. They've already gone through numerous hoops to get to your story, and now you're holding them hostage to comments. Someone did comment, constructively, and all you did was make a passive-aggressive pass at them for it. You're writing porn, yo. It's creepy, incestuous porn. What do you want people to say?

"Boy, I sure did cum a lot there. That was definitely semen-inducing."

You've set up an absolutely absurd system to view this story when The Evolution Forum is more than capable of handling it. My only regret is that my mastery of the English language isn't sufficient to express my disdain and irritation at this entire thing.

-X-

[kenstaff]

..........

[iceman75]

I think he's got a point though, why exactly don't you post the story here?

[Rowan]

Originally Posted by kenstaff

Someone's bitter

Xyg's one of the best writers around, so trust me when I say this-- He's not bitter. He's irked.

It's one thing to announce that you're moving your story to another site: you're the creator and it's your perogative. I've done it, and a lot of other writers have done it. But creating what are essentially empty posts every time you update on another site is kinda rude to the forum, imho. Demanding comments *here* about a story *there* even moreso. Dismissing comments that don't fit with your idea of what you should be getting is probably strike three.

Comments happen. Or they don't. They're wonderfully positive, or they're not. That's how it is on any site. You control the story--not the reader's response to it.

[Xyggurat]

His stated reasoning in one of his other posts (recounted here due to his habit of edit-washing his old statements) is:

"After quite a few requests and kind words (just so you know I had no negative feedback), I've decided to post these stories. BUT since this site doesn't allow me to upload the story in each part - as images - I am using my muscle video to upload my story as image posts. (so they are not easily copied and pasted on other sites)
So if any of you really want to read my stories, you will have to request to be added as a friend and then subscribe to my group at my muscle video.
There is also other muscle content there I have uploaded only to those who subscribe to my group.
URL: http://mymusclevideo.com/profile_groups/kenstaff/"

Source: http://www.musclegrowth.org/forum/sh...73&postcount=5

-X-

[iceman75]

Well, I think that's a weird way of doing things. While I appreciate the stories, like the premise and everything else, I don't see that being a great reason to make me join another page just to read stories that I would and should read here. Also, the comment box on mmv only goes up to 500 words (or characters, I forget) I think if the stories were posted here, the comments would be longer, more constructive, which, imo would lead to better written stories. I hope Kenstaff is open to this helpful criticism, but it seems to me, by his responses to Xyggurat and nnnrg, that he pretty much doesn't care. Which is sad.

[Xyggurat]

Originally Posted by iceman75

Well, I think that's a weird way of doing things. While I appreciate the stories, like the premise and everything else, I don't see that being a great reason to make me join another page just to read stories that I would and should read here. Also, the comment box on mmv only goes up to 500 words (or characters, I forget) I think if the stories were posted here, the comments would be longer, more constructive, which, imo would lead to better written stories. I hope Kenstaff is open to this helpful criticism, but it seems to me, by his responses to Xyggurat and nnnrg, that he pretty much doesn't care. Which is sad.

In total fairness, my response wasn't precisely polite. I'm baffled and irate at his behavior, which included angrily demanding comments and threats to cut his stories if he didn't get them.

-X-

[Rarity]

Originally Posted by Xyggurat

In total fairness, my response wasn't precisely polite. I'm baffled and irate at his behavior, which included angrily demanding comments and threats to cut his stories if he didn't get them.

-X-

*spits out tea*

There are story writers that actually DO that? Hot damn, that's a whole different level of smacked assery. I can understand wanting comments, but that's an irrational demand/threat. Luckily I did not see it word for word, or else I would have had a field day with it. Anywhoozle, I have read some of his stuff, and he is a good writer - although, what he writes about is not my cup of tea. Maybe he could post stories here that are about 18+ year olds being all muscly instead.

[manlion]

I thought the parts I read here weren't bad, I'd have continued to read, and might've even commented with good critique, if they had stayed here, but no, I'm not going to jump through hoops just to suit some author's paranoia about story theft.

The age thing, meh, I got into MG stories back in my teens, so teen characters don't really bug me. (Though I will say, someone in one of the other parts threads said what amounts to 'everybody thinks body hair is gross', well, I VERY much disagree, it's one of my favorite parts of masculinization stories, and I wish we'd see more of it. I was the one who requested the 'Getting Hairy' category at Metabods, and I wish it saw more tagging in the stories, since a lot of stories do use it as one of their themes. My tastes for it may be outside of the norm, but I think we as a community have little ground to judge fringe interests.)

In my personal, not-to-be-taken-as-gospel opinion, this current setup is lame. Either post them here properly, or bug off and stop begging people off to another site. This is what this place is FOR. Posting as images does little to preserve them, and just makes it a hassle for anyone with special circumstances, like reading on mobile or using a screen-reader. (Because seriously, if you're that worried, OCR exists, and if someone REALLY wanted to steal the story, they could save off and read from an image almost as easily as they could straight text.)

[iceman75]

Well, I just went to MMV and it appears that Kenstaff is either done for good at MGS, or overall because his latest media download is pretty much a snarky repetition of all the negative comments made here, and a little criticism of his own on the general posts on MGS. So I guess the guy can't take criticism. You'd think that if you put your stuff up in a public place, you'd be man enough to stand by it.

BTW, he also deleted all the comments he made in this thread, and I'm guessing, though I haven't checked yet, in his other threads.

Disappointing, because I did like his muscle and strength description. But the guy does seem to be a douche, so I won't miss him too much.

Here is the message, word for word:

Incenst is bad (nice spelling Kenstaff)

Body hair is Itchy

A hostage situation

Let's all sign up and log in to gay muscle and sex-fantasy websites and jack-off at the hot stories... then we'll simply incite indignation at the lewd contributors, so we can all feel better about ourselves.

[email protected] = the end

[Xyggurat]

Well, the real mark of a mature human being is what he says about people behind their backs. So you're all nice, awesome people, especially those of you not reading this.

-X-

P.S. No, not you.

[toby182]

can't bother creating another account...... do hope you post them back on this site.....

[rododoro3]

On one hand, I identify with the desire.
You post your stuff not only because you want to make other people happy, but because you get satisfaction from making people happy.
On the other, demanding feedback or cutting the story (as seems to have happened here) is not cool.
It's so uncool, in fact, that I'm pretty happy I didn't read this thread until today.
Because I would've felt obligated to comment, and I wouldn't have commented in a civilized way.

Once, ages ago, I thought of doing it myself, and then realized it wouldn't make my story more popular or better, it would detract from its value, since it may turn off potential readers.

Kenstaff, if you're still browsing these forums, your story was great, but I agree with most everyone here: Forcing us to read your stories on a different platform while advertising it here is immoral. Thank you for posting it, but, to be honest, incest isn't my cup of tea, so I will excuse myself and go read some others, something I should have done the first time you placed restrictions on your writing.
Love, Rod.

EDIT: Also, about edit-washing.
If you say something, and take it back, you're making whatever you said seem a lot worse.
Have you seen fake censorship on photos? For example, someone's sticking out a fist, and the top is censored, leading us to believe he's flipping the bird?
Wiping your old posts isn't an efficient act, whether sparked by negative criticism or by personal guilt or reticence. The moment your post is wiped, it makes everyone assume the worst: the post included something that required wiping.
Also, in the current state the world is in, with countries preventing their residents from learning anything about the state of their nation via censorship, it makes you seem like a bit of a douche.

[hexdog3f8h]

Well, he cleaned out his MMV account too. And as much as I dislike the attitude that accompanied the author, I did like the stories. But I guess this guy is too into himself to be considerate. I can understand using the images for copy protection. But I do agree that adverts here to go there kinda make the whole thing less worthwhile, cheap and kinda inappropriate.

Plus, you don't command people to comment. People comment when they feel the need to. If a story is good or bad enough they will comment. If no one comments, no news is good news. If you post it here, there is a guarantee that someone will read it. Post it at MMV and you will never know.

It's a disappointment.

[nnnrg]

Oh geez. He demands feedback. I give him feedback. I preface parts of it with "this is my personal taste, please don't change your stories just to pander to my tastes, but here's my view," and he got offended?

Wow. What a special snowflake.

Seriously, my opinion of body hair is just that: MINE. I know from recollection that there is a time around age 11-13 where MOST guys find body hair simultaneously fascinating and gross - and the straight ones hate it on girls - but honestly, it's simply THERE. It exists. I deal with it. I deal with more of it than I want to, most of the time. I don't find it erotic, so the fetishizing of it makes me yawn and skip ahead, but there are guys for whom it is an important thing, and that's fine. Hey, it even makes me more attractive to some of them, bonus right? And I'm sure some of my own personal turn-ons are going to be really boring for other people.


I guess my take on this is "he seems to have trolled us to get a reaction to justify pulling his story."

[mawkroy]

I feel angry at all the time I've wasted reading this thread. This guy ought to be banned for spamming the boards with links to another site. Links that make you register an account and wait for this douche nozzle to "friend" you before you can even read the story. I am upset this thread even exists. And I know I'm not doing it any good by responding to it, "paying attention" to it, but I feel so ill I just cannot resist replying. Bah humbug.

[tekuno]

I don't think we should be so quick to rush to judgement.

How can I put this? The initial decision to move the story elsewhere looked very much to me as though somebody had been contacting kenstaff privately, either the site owner or some of our self-appointed censors and would-be gatekeepers (who have been threshing the straw on this issue elsewhere). We don't know what was said -- some of the people here do not seem to be totally above sending private messages which are rude or misleading. Either way, removing the story but putting it somewhere where it was still free to access, and telling us how to read it if we still so desired, was actually a reasonable and nice reaction. Nor do I think it was irredeemably evil for him to post a notice saying new parts were available. (What was annoying and wasteful wasn't his fault: the stream of people who decided to announce over here that they sent him a friend request over there.)

If the reason the story was removed was harassment over here from someone other than the site owner, then I think that getting angry isn't entirely unreasonable either. Posting the stuff over there must have been a certain amount of work, and I can imagine him saying "first they kick me out for content issues, then when I fix that by moving the story elsewhere they still complain about it; screw them". Not the nicest reaction, but I can see how he could have been provoked into it. (It would also explain the reaction he apparently put up at mymusclevideo.com, quoted elsewhere above.)

In fact, I'd have to say that the resentment being shown now that the guy is gone is in much poorer taste than what he did -- you had to "go through hoops" to read the story? Well, gee, it was free and I haven't heard anyone say that he rejected anyone's request to see it. How, exactly, were you suffering because of all this?

[iceman75]

Actually, that is fair as you explain it. I think the guy did get more sh*t than he deserved.

[Rarity]

Originally Posted by iceman75

Actually, that is fair as you explain it. I think the guy did get more shit (we're all adults here, dear) than he deserved.

ANYWAAAAAAAAAAAY

Tekuno, I think you're missing the fun tidbits. His conduct warranted it (his reaction to opinions/comments). It didn't help that he kept getting worse with each response. I know some creative people can be touchy about things, but those "creative souls" are also super douche bags. Nobody is the perfect writer/artist/etc. He seems adept in the English language, so there's no way he could misconstrue constructive critty-sism as insults. And even if there were insults (which there rarely is on this site), an Internet-savvy person would know how to handle things. Instead, he kind of just went derpaderpa all over the place.

I personally do not mind the site-linking and such. HOWEVER, There are some things you just don't do.

1) You do not shoot down their opinions because they differ from your opinions.
2) You do not threaten to remove your work just because you got butthurt over something stupid that you've done.
3) You do not make your work "exclusive" by posting it on another site where you have to "friend" people.
4) You do noooooooot demand comments.
5) And for fuck's sake, you do not COMPLAIN about receiving comments.


Sure there are some functionally retarded people sprinkled around, but those people are usually easy to deal with unless they hold some influence in certain domains. There are also whiny asshats to deal with. Regardless, it's still not that hard.

Like they say, "If you can't stand the heat, get the fuck out of the nuclear reactor." He's too fragile to handle this super-easy-to-handle-place called The Internet. It's a shame to see a good writer go, but with an attitude like that. . . Maybe it's better for his sake to not post for a while. :T

[tekuno]

Originally Posted by Rarity

1) You do not shoot down their opinions because they differ from your opinions.

Once again: I suspect that the guy wasn't expecting to see more complaints about age/puberty stuff once he moved the story elsewhere.

2) You do not threaten to remove your work just because you got butthurt over something stupid that you've done.

It was before your time, I think, but you know Musclegod300? Writes a lot of stuff which you seem to like? He used to go under a bunch of different usernames here. Some of the changes were voluntary because he wanted to have a different screen name, but at least one of the accounts had to be abandoned because the account was banned -- apparently permanently -- for posting underage stories. I have a suspicion that kenstaff got at least one private message which... pointed that out, let's say. And given some of the things people have said elsewhere, it wouldn't surprise me at all if some of them involved insults which they would never have posted to the forum itself. (The complaint about getting off on the stories and then being rude suggests that that happened, to me.)

3) You do not make your work "exclusive" by posting it on another site where you have to "friend" people.

I don't think he wanted to make it exclusive. Did he turn down any friend requests over there? It seems a lot more like he took them down to avoid getting banned/getting nasty messages, and tried to find a place to put them where he could make them accessible without having to worry about what happened over here. It's a pity he didn't choose FurAffinity, which would have fit all his requirements. (Of course, if he had done that, then instead of the "I just sent you a friend request" replies, we would have had a string of "I don't see anything in your user account" replies instead, because FurAffinity is like Pixiv with an account setting which hides "mature" stuff, and people who sign up just to find a particular thing never notice it.)

Personally? I hate it when people remove posts (or significantly alter stories in place -- I have done a lot of proofreading after the fact because I never seem to notice the errors until after they're public, but that's just minor corrections, not changes to the plot). But it happens. Just a little while ago, everything by a fairly prolific author here got removed for reasons which I feel are inadequate. And that's why, these days, as soon as I see something I like even a little, I save a copy to my own computer.

4) You do noooooooot demand comments.

Fair enough -- but if an author does something you don't like, you do nooooooooot insult them in public, either. You hit the back button and say to yourself "gee, that guy may be a good writer, but from now on I'm not going to bother reading anything he says except the actual stories."

5) And for fuck's sake, you do not COMPLAIN about receiving comments.

You might if you think that the comments are a rehash of the insults you got earlier in private, which I think is what happened here.

[manlion]

The thing about that, with the private message comments about the material, is that unless those private comments were from mods (who would have greater say-so), he should have had the awareness to realize that those comments were only the opinions of individuals, and considering (at the time, as I recall) all the *public* response to his story had been positive, maybe those private comments are only the outcry of a noisy minority, and not the unspoken opinion of a majority.

That's a level of insight that only comes with maturity, which, in my opinion, he was not displaying.

[tekuno]

"The challenge of manners is not so much to be nice to someone whose favor and/or person you covet (although more people need to be reminded of that necessity than one would suppose) as to be exposed to the bad manners of others without imitating them. [...]

But even if correcting others' behavior unasked were not in itself a violation of etiquette, the sad fact is that you cannot give instant etiquette lessons that will casually change people's behavior for the better. Such engagements are only too likely to lead instead to a change of hostilities characterized by further rudeness.

Miss Manners would like to recommend a dignified, traditional response that has pretty much fallen out of use: Rising Above It. Let the driver or the guest go on his way without any recognition of the error except that inward satisfaction of knowing better than they how to behave."

-- Judith Martin (Miss Manners), Miss Manners' Guide for the Turn-of-the-Millennium

[Rarity]

Guuuuuuuuuuuuuurls, stahp bumping this tapeek. Let it die so the stories that are still here don't keep getting bumped down.