Does someone who juices deserve to die?

[Corwin]

So, I was just in chat and got into an argument with someone there. Basically, the claim was a bodybuilder who died this week of organ failure "did it to himself" because he did roids.

My position is simple. Everyone makes choices, some smart, some not so smart. I personally find nothing wrong with doing steroids and would prefer legalization and common sense use. I also think no one deserves to die for their choices.

Other's thoughts?

[arpeejay]

For the most part, I think you're right on the money.

The hubby, of course, is a cancer doctor and he routinely sees people with lung cancer. Their cancer is overwhelmingly the result of having abused tobacco for decades...and almost all of them come up with some bogus excuse for why they have lung cancer. "Well, it was those paint fumes in the auto body shop..." and a thousand others.

With steroids it's a lot trickier to link cause and effect. From what I've seen and read, the incidence of cancer among bodybuilders is no more and no less than in the general population. What is much more common is kidney failure, heart failure, etc. and that isn't directly attributable to steroids either; they're more likely the result of over consumption of protein and high body mass (facilitated by steroids but not directly causal.)

Whatever the reason, it's always sad for the people who are left behind (especially when the one who has passed away is young...)

xoxo

Richard

[The Magus]

I said it in another thread, but statistics can tell us a great deal about populations but very little about individuals.

The thing about cancer is, it can happen to anyone. Every cancer is different, which is part of why it is so difficult to treat, cure, and prevent. We can say that (made up numbers here), 25% of smokers are likely to develop lung cancer in their lifetime, but of those 25%, there is a not-insignificant number of people who would have gotten lung cancer anyway, no matter what they did to their lungs. This is part of the reason why when you see statistics being reported, there is often an accompanying bit that says "results are 99.5% accurate 19 times out of 20."

The other part of this is the "just world" fallacy. There's a human tendency to believe that we live in a world that is fair. This belief is probably a good thing, because otherwise a lot of us wouldn't get out of bed in the morning, but it isn't true. Mathematically, bad things happen to good people all the time, and so do good things with bad people. But it's comforting to believe that when a bad thing happens to someone else, it happened because of something they did, because if bad things just happen randomly, that means a bad thing could happen to me, and since I don't want bad things to happen to me, it's easier for me to think that if I live right and don't fuck up, everything will be alright (but in reality it probably won't).

There's also a bit of attribution error in there, too, where people tend to assume that bad results for other people are linked to their character, whereas bad results for themselves are because of outside circumstances. If you're late for work, it's because of traffic or weather, but if Pete's late for work it's probably because he's a slob.

I think it's fine for someone to say that steroids may increase your risk of cancer, etc, or that drug abuse can lead to health problems (notice: "may", "can", not "will" or "must"), because what research and observation have told us is that in large populations, drug abuse and health problems are correlated. But at the individual level it's impossible to say if an individual's drug use has caused that individual's particular health issue.

In fact, it can be hurtful and offensive to do so, and in some cases doing that is called "blaming the victim" which, when done with issues not related to taboo subjects like drugs or sex, we consider to be rude.

[Yachirobi]

More likely than not, the recent bodybuilder deaths have been brought on by the individual bodybuilders themselves. Is it fair? Hell no! Shame on anyone who thinks they deserved to die young. But they are responsible, at least in part, for their fates. I love big men, but I'd rather see skinny men than dead men.

[The Magus]

oh? You were there to watch their cells turn cancerous, yachi? You have some special ability beyond the grasp of medical science, do you?

[LeatherGryphon]

I would wager that if we examined the statistics of huge bodybuilders and considered the probabilities, then we would probably come to a meaningful conclusion that "yes, the bodybuilding was a major factor of their untimely deaths".

Whether it be from steroids or other drugs or hormones, excessive weight, massive food intake (and corresponding overload of various nutrients and/or toxins from processed foods), continual stress, etc. Uber large bodybuilders would seem to be treading a risky path.

I'm not saying that getting uber large will absolutely kill you before your time but there is some reason that many uber large bodybuilders either die or get sensible about their size. And I'm sure that many of the uber large that we remember from decades ago may have not advertised their medical issues that prompted their exit from the stage.

[LeatherGryphon]

But to address the question of "... deserve to die?" Does a race car driver killed in an accident deserve to die? Do mountain climbers deserve to die? Do SCUBA divers deserve to die? (try getting life insurance after you take SCUBA lessons and admit it to your agent).

Point being that risky activities don't constitute a punishment.

[bulkybud]

I am going to stay away from the "deserves to die" concept. I don't know if I would ever be confident or wise enough to make that judgement.

This country is so conflicted on steroids.

We pass harsh condemnations in the TV news on chemicals that artificially supplement testosterone levels, claiming that these illegal 'steroids' are the cause of countless health problems.

Then at the station break, the same network promotes Androgel and other products that artificially supplement testosterone levels, claiming that THESE benign 'medicines' are the cure for countless ills.

bulkybud

[schwermarko]

We are mortal, deserve it or not, we will all die.

Some of us make the outlandish decision to live first!

I take risks that potentially shorten my life, steroids is one, being big is one, driving a car is another one. I'm sure that I've told this story here before, but the thing that tipped me over the hump to decide to run a cycle was when I saw a third potentially fatal accident being cleaned up on my way to work, I was risking my life for a paycheck, why wasn't I willing to risk it to have the experience of being transformed?

If you are interested in banning things for people's health start with cigarettes, pop and margarine. I think that the current ban on steroids causes more problems than it cures, as this is something robed in bro-science and bull shit, and it creates a dangerous environment of misinformed consent.

[FuzzyKB]

Originally Posted by Corwin

So, I was just in chat and got into an argument with someone there. Basically, the claim was a bodybuilder who died this week of organ failure "did it to himself" because he did roids.

My position is simple. Everyone makes choices, some smart, some not so smart. I personally find nothing wrong with doing steroids and would prefer legalization and common sense use. I also think no one deserves to die for their choices.

Other's thoughts?

There is a major problem with this in that a great deal of what people hear is politically motivated. No matter what anyone tells non-believers, the public thinks that anyone and everyone who is a bodybuilder automatically uses anabolic steroids.

The next thing is that when a bodybuilder or famous athlete dies, is stricken with cancer or anything else the media in it?s voracious quest for ratings and circulation over truth never waits until the final reports are in.

One of the things recently discovered is that many large bodybuilders suffer from sleep apnea. Bodybuilder dies in his sleep and we blame steroids because by the time the Coroner is finished if there even is an inquest the evidence of heart failure and damage from common sleep apnea is rarely looked at.

Bodybuilders are celebrities sadly only when they die as far as the general public is concerned.

When it comes to athletes, particularly bodybuilders, as size increases so do the odds for sleep apnea. This is a silent killer and many who are large need to be checked and tested for it as they continue to ?grow?. This is not found in only obese people it is a part of the general population. Sleep apnea can hit anyone of any age weight size or physical condition.

The Mentzer Brothers both lost their lives at younger ages than would be considered average. When those two respective passings happened, immediately the cause was a ?lifestyle of steroids?. Nobody bothered to point out that there was a family history of heart disease, and that neither had been in competition for years.

Rob Sager who was a ?gay for pay? physique model was found dead in his bed at age 29. Sager also came from a family with a long history of heart disease. Because he was to say the least attractive and had a physique that might have been considered competitive. Let?s again automatically call it steroids and never wait for all the final reports.

Here is an example of media distortion:
Some years ago malt-shop rock star Rick Nelson boarded an aging McDonell-Douglas DC-3. He was heading off on a sort of revival tour. Most of the general public is not aware that a DC-3 is a small former commercial airliner with two piston engines. This aircraft started into production in the final years of the 1930?s as I remember. In those years the cabin heat was supplied by aviation fuel fired heaters. On a modern jet it comes from bleed air from the jet engines.

Rick Nelson died when the plane crashed. The news media completely vilified the idol of early rock with no proof of their statements accusing the star and the crew of ?cooking drugs? while in light.

When the FAA investigation was completed the cause of the crash was found to be a faulty cabin heater that caught fire during flight. No evidence was found in the wreckage of any form of illegal activity. In addition it was found that the occupants of that plane were probably deceased before the plane crashed.

The scandalous accusations were in the front and the retractions with the correct cause of the disaster were buried some time later.

My personal position on A/S is neutrality. There are A/S that can cause problems and if a person is taking these drugs either by oral or injectable means they are running some risk.

A/S cause cancer?

If this is the case why are A/S used to rebuild wasted bodies in some forms of cancer? You certainly would never want to give A/S to an HIV patient because with a compromised immune system they would be even more likely to be pushing up lilies far more quickly if that were the case.

In HIV treatment A/S are prescribed at some point for nearly 100% of those patients and they are not dropping dead of coronary thrombosis at an incredible rate.

Some anabolic drugs but not all will in a percentage of individuals cause abnormal blood cell production. This is not all A/S that do this.

It is far easier to die from misuse of NSAIDS, Tylenol, OTC cold and flu medications, prescription pain killers and host of other things.

Properly used A/S have saved and enhanced many lives returning many to productivity.

We all have to take responsibility for our own lives and I am saddened that based on political motivation that these drugs have been unfairly vilified.

I think that a blanket judgment here is really not a good way to go.

[petercbb]

It's a valid question as to whether someone has done something to themselves and caused bad consequences. But I don't think singling out steroids is helpful or relevant. As Corwin says, we all make choices, and many of the choices we make have the potential to cause us harm.

Who hasn't had one glass of wine too many, taken a short cut over a busy road or driven just a little bit too fast for the road they were on? We've ALL done it in one form or another.

I think its a bit sanctimonious for someone to say people do things to themselves when we all take risks, some greater than others. Although I'm not religious, it reminds of that saying 'let he who is without sin cast the first stone'.

So come on, who's going to throw the first stone?