The Adonis Complex - for real?

[claygrant]

hey guys, have you heard of the "Adonis Complex"? If not, you might want to check it out - Amazon has the book, authors are Pope, Phillips, and Olivardia.

If you know what I'm talking about, then I'd like to hear your thoughts on it.

One trend that the authors mention is the increasing muscularity of action heroes (Schwarzenegger), comic book heroes, and action figures. As I grew up, I never questioned why GI Joes were getting bigger, or why my favorite comic book characters were drawn with more muscle and definition... I guess it seemed a natural part of growing up.

I'm particularly interesting in asking, when will it stop?? Bodybuilders are getting bigger every year with enhancing drugs, so the reality is that the human body can get freakishly huge. Since it's feasible in real life, comic books and movies will probably reflect the bodybuilders' physique. Will society ever get sick of it? Will we ever return to more Greek ideals for body proportions?

Just some thoughts I had after reading it. It also makes you wonder just how many guys in the gym really want to look like a freakish bodybuilder. Now that's hot!

[fleXodus]

"The Adonis Complex" is an excellent book, though somewhat alarming. It really does make you wonder... when will it stop? We really live in a society where bigger is usually considered better and thanks to advances in nutrition and training (and most notably anabolics) have allowed people to achieve unprecedented levels of development.

This month's Men's Health magazine has a great article about how steroid use has quickly spread beyond gym rats to everyday people, like stock brokers, married men, etc...

Another great read is Life Outside - The Signorile Report on Gay Men: Sex, Drugs, Muscles, and the Passages of Life which examines the origin and affects of the muscular male ideal within the gay community. Definitely worth a read if you're into muscle and also a thinker

[buffdoc]

Let me second the Adonis Complex as a great read.

[polomuscle]

i know this book. fact is that huge muscles are hot and always have been.
so work out! but also LOVE YOURSELF

[brent]

I have to agree with polodude that we should all love ourselves & our own bodies, but I also enjoy seeing how large some guys can get.

As May West once said, "Too much of a great thing can be worderful!"

Just remember to love every human as well.

Even bad people like Saddam Hussein?

[polomuscle]

"may all beings everywhere be happy and free"
-the yoga sutra

[brent]

When I was a kid, the media said tha t Sadam was a wonderful leader, who built Hospitals, and Universitties for his people, and made sure that girls had access to a university education, rare for that region. That was back when he stayed in the Reagan White House, and we were selling him weapons. Now he's a bad man. Who knows, I don't think the media gives a very balanced picture, even under the best of circumstances. Maybe by this time next year, he and Bin Lauden will be great allies of the US? Its hard to say since this stuff keeps changing so often. I try to ignor it, not watch the news, and not judge other people. I'm not always sucessful at that, but I try. I'm sure their are people out there that could find some fault with something I've done in the past.

When I was a kid (in the 70's eak!) there was a popular song with a great chorus line, "There ain't no good-guys. There ain't no bad guys, there's just you and me, and we just disagree..." I may have made a small error in quoting it, and the grammer of it is from Hell, but the idea is a beutiful one, I think. I try not to see people as good, or bad, just people. All of which have faults like I do.

That being said, no not Sadam, sorry, I just don't find him very sexxy.

[gianthulk]

I can't wait until science enables us to transcend the current limits of scale. I look forward to turning into an 8 foot tall mega freak for real.

[optimusx]

You know as odd as it may seem, we sorta have the early adopters to bodybuilding to thank for the change in perspective to as what "muscle" really means.

If you look at strongmen predating the 1930's or so, you'll notice that most of them look like powerlifters large % of bodyfat, so that set the trend for what strong was.

Also if you look at the original hulk comics, you'll see that the hulk was nothing more than a giant green/brown guy with funny hair. However after Lou Ferrigno (sp?) took on the role for the TV show, the comics came in line with that image of a muscular form.

As nutrition and science improve, we're giving edges to kids today that most of us never had when we were younger. Some kids today are as strong if not stronger then men who have been training for years and years.

It's not necessarily that people are attempting to achieve a certain image (soeley). I think that the trends we see today are, in part, also due to traditional instinct: To provide the best possbility for offspring to survive and reproduce. It's nothing really new, we've just redefined what the base requirements for survival and reproduction are.

Scott

[ottomun6]

I think we have two major things to be aware of:

First, I think we all love and celebrate the bigger stronger male physique.
Look at the number one shows in the country- wrestling! Let's face it, we are hooked to see if there is going to be a guy that's even bigger than the big fellas out there now.

Second, There is such a thing as being TOO wrapped in yourself, some guys have taken it to the point of being ignorant of their own families and friends. Sometimes the personality is no more developed than a child's.
I recently watched a program about a bodybuilder that underwent surgery for drooping eyelids. His personality (and clothes) was straight out of the 5 th grade.
His wife loved the muscles, but he was too childish so they separated.
This is a grown man in his mid thirties, wearing garish chains, jewelry and tight clothes with large holes cut in them to expose his left pec. (yikes!)

To each his own, I guess.

[ethernet_jock]

Wow otto... that's ummm... incredibly pathetic... and a GREAT example of what I also call the Vin Diesel effect.

You see my point - of course... I'd kill to have that guy's body... but I'd rather keep my own brain.

[redwolf64]

The "Adonis Complex", from the reviews I've read, seems to really only scratch the surface -- they note the increases in muscular male images in society and pressures on men to have "ideal" bodies. But they come to the conclusion that it's due to the rise of the women's rights movement.

If you really want to think about some of these issues and why men in American society are they way they are -- ranging from 30 year old men playing "adult children" to those that are body obsessed, religion obsessed, or just feeling a sense of being out of place, read Susan Faludi's "Stiffed".

I think, though, that the authors of "Adonis" are obsessing a bit on the issue. Men (or women) who want to be bigger or stronger or sexier have been around for far longer than any of us have and artists have always been a few steps ahead of what men (or women) could actually do with their bodies.

The real question that needs to be asked at this point has to do with how our society feels about body alteration. We've reached a certain scientific level with what we know on how exercise, diet and other factors can be mixed to "shape" the body. We've gone the step of using implants or surgical or chemical enhancements. Over the next few decades, we face the very real possibility that our own genetic code can be manipulated not just for health, but for cosmetic reasons (remember the "muscley mice" we've discussed in other threads?).

Which brings me to the other recommendation in this thread for Signorile's "Life Outside" -- don't bother with it. While Signorile has some good things to say about body obsession or relationships, he wraps it in a fairly conservative vision of gay life that's all about picket fences and blending in. If you like that kind of thing, you should find comfort in what Signorile has to say. However, if you're someone who thinks that there's room for lots of different types of self expression and communities among gays and lesbians, you'll be disappointed.

Shaping your body or your life into something unique that stands out from the crowd just isn't Signorile's cup of tea.

[nnnrg]

Originally Posted by Turbomuscle

Even bad people like Saddam Hussein?

Especially bad people like Saddam Hussein. Though, loving them doesn't mean letting them continue to hurt other people.

[RadRx]

The Adonis Complex was a great book. It was great to see that male Body Dysmorphic Syndrome has been taken seriously. I loaned it to my trainer, and someone swiped it from him at the gym. I still bought another copy in order to keep a copy.

I read this book with great interest. The authors argue that the adonis complex is the opposite of anorexia - and called it bigorexia. Basically guys who were huge didn't realise the extent of their muscularity. So they trained to get bigger and bigger...

I also found the argument about the size of toys interesting. Certainly toys have got much more musclar and unrealistic over the years - they exampled one oy who's bicep was bigger than his waist. COOL!

[Mdlftr]

I concur with all the positive statements about "The Adonis Complex." The important point that the book made to me when I read it was that the common lack of self esteem about the male physique is a direct result of societal trends.

In other words, starting in mid-20th century, the cult of the male "physical ideal" really took off. As men perform fewer jobs that require physical labor and create big bulging muscles, the muscles themselves become a symbol for displaced masculinity. As more and more men work in office jobs, or jobs that are not physically demanding, and end up with work physiques that resemble Don Knotts (scrawny, with maybe stooped shoulders accentuating a sunken chest and a little pot belly) the man with a muscular physique (traditionally associated with those who are laborers, and thus, socially inferior or at least less desireable) becomes a desireable ideal.

By way of contrast, I read a book (unfortunately, I can't remember the citation) which talked about the lean, slim, languid, unathletic ideal of the 19th century British aristocratic classes. The ideal male physique at that time was slim and unmuscular, which marked you as a "gentleman" who had sufficient wealth that he did not need to perform manual labor (and thus develop big muscles).

Bottom line: we are much more a product of our social and cultural times than we would like to believe. The Adonis Complex does a good job of assembling the evidence and pointing out how mass culture influences self-esteem.

Mdlftr

[massingUP]

MD,

I think the book you were referring to is Eye on the Flesh: Fashions of Masculinity in the Early Twentieth Century by Maurizia Boscagli.

It can get a bit dense in the early chapters, but basically the author traces a broad social shift from the 19-th century elites' vision of masculinity, which imagined the ideal male body as NON-muscled, to the rise of physical culture in the late-19th and early 20th century and the development of a new ideal of masculinity which saw the ideal male body as strong and muscular. She ties this in, as you mentioned in your post, to the rise of intellectual labor (ie non-athletic office jobs) as a newly dominant form of middle-class wage labor and to WWI (and the need to define the nation's men as "strong" and "ready for battle") among other things. It's a good book and worth reading for some historical perspective on our own muscular desires.

But I guess the question I have is this: how does this historical perspective, or these ideas about the "dangers" of the Adonis complex, reflect on our own lust for muscle, musclegrowth, size, strength, etc? This group is organized around celebrating and desiring truly MASSIVE muscle, and lots of the growth stories often revolve around issues of power, revenge, thwarted and/or achieved masculinity. So what does that say about us and our own perspectives on our masculinities, our places in the world, etc? I can't speak for anyone else, and I' still trying to figure some of these issues out for myself, but I'd sure be interested to find out what people have to say...

-- J.

[glammaman2000]

before women started entering the labor force in large numbers(about the 1920's)the social opposite of a"man"was a "BOY"i.e.,one who had not taken up full social responsibilities{this allowed a 20-ish white male to refer to a 50-ish black as"boy".the same usage existed in England between classes;without the racial component}once men had to compete with women,the opposite of a"MAN"became a "sissy"i.e.,"like a woman"&having to "work"at being a"real man"(as opposed to just being one)became a social pressure.(read George Chauncey"Gay New York;1890-1940")

[ottomun6]

I think we have to admit that we are linked in one way or another to the Adonis Complex way of thinking. We LOVE seeing a friend pack on 30 lbs of muscle, we LOVE seeing a guy walk down the street with muscles gently bulging and pushing the clothes in a way that a normal man can't. We LOVE seeing a guy get so strong that we know normal men would be afraid of him (as a stranger).
We just LOVE bigger and stronger as a part of society. Bigger athletes, bigger wrestlers and even bigger cars.
Look at the sport utility craze, it happened just as we were getting mid-sized cars to getting 26-30 mpg on the highway. Its always been said that we are what we drive. (America was just reaching a point of practicality), then BOOM!! , suddenly
it's not cool to drive a sedan, now you have to have 4 wheel drive and tower over traffic. Now it makes even women big and tough. We no longer care about the mileage. HECK!! we don't even mind paying an extra $6 to $20 grand more for the privlege!

Before I get stuck on the soapbox, I'll sum it up to say that even though we love the big muscle scene, we only need to remember balance.
There are big muscle guys with families, degrees, businesses, etc. they look at the muscles as more of a good hobby. They are mature, well balanced and don't have to apologize to anyone.

[buffdoc]

massingUP, I think you raise some very fundamental questions as to what is the underlying motivation and attraction toward muscle. I am also interested in the response of others as well. So I will attempt to get this discussion jump started by posting my thoughts:

The appeal of a muscular masculine ideal is definitively more than just a macro-social trend. As individuals in society we are bombard with a variety of messages as to what constitutes success, perfection, happiness; these cues are often consistent ($=good) and but are often contradictory ("simplify your life") and do not equally resonate with each individual. So there is definitively a personal motivation that overlies the general accepted social norms that muscularity is associated with male prowess.

I think much of my personal muscle quest is a reactionary state against my own intellectualism in the context of my underlying sexuality. Being smart has given me all sorts of great opportunities and a career that has given my life a fulfilling sense of purpose. But intellectualism is not a cornerstone of masculinity--i think it has a more feminine connotation and socially is associated with weakness ("the dork, the nerd") as it concerns itself with the abstract rather than physically tangible. Add to that being a gay man, which for me, on a some level has translated to feeling somewhat less than fully male. I remember in high school my best buddy (straight) and I (closeted and confused) consistently dated women; he would score and I would just totally freeze up when I tried to get close to a girl--it was so demoralizing and I think a touch of that remains. So what better way to assert your masculinity than by outwardly being built and strong. Most people don't assume built guys are smart ("dumb jock stereotype") nor do they think they are weak and gay ("the stud"/"the hunk" stereotype). So, as I see it, my personal desire to lift, train, and grow originates deeply from some of the innate unchangeable elements that makes me a unique individual. I am not sure if this motivation is entirely healthy nor do I believe in the long term it will be solution to some of my inner conflicts. That being said, being some-what built does have its advantages and that tends to make the desire to refine your physique self reinforcing.

[Mdlftr]

Massing,

Thanks for the cite. I don't recognize this, but the concepts are what I recall reading. I suspect this may have been a primary source that must have been excerpted in something else that I read.

BTW, I refer you to a sociological study of bodybuilders in Southern CA gyms, conducted over several years in the 1980s-90s, by a sociology prof (at NYU, I think) called "Little Big Man". It looked at the severe personality/self image issues found in a group of bodybuilders in a S.CA gym. Interesting reading in parts, though not particularly persuasive--more a series of interviews with the builders about their lives and what led them to become bbuilders.

Originally Posted by massingUP

MD,

I
I guess the question I have is this: how does this historical perspective, or these ideas about the "dangers" of the Adonis complex, reflect on our own lust for muscle, musclegrowth, size, strength, etc? This group is organized around celebrating and desiring truly MASSIVE muscle, and lots of the growth stories often revolve around issues of power, revenge, thwarted and/or achieved masculinity. So what does that say about us and our own perspectives on our masculinities, our places in the world, etc? I can't speak for anyone else, and I' still trying to figure some of these issues out for myself, but I'd sure be interested to find out what people have to say...

-- J.

My thought on the relevance of the Adonis Complex to "our lust for muscle, musclegrowth, size, strength, etc?" is that it describes what is in the cultural mix that forms people's interests and desires. People tend to fetishize and get sexual stimulation from ideas, fashions and looks that are current in society.

For example, historically (by that I mean the 1950's forward, in modern times) some people fantasized about women's silk stockings and garters and garter belts and high heels and all that. I think that most people today are not as "turned on" by garters and stockings because they are a dated fashion. They were big, especially in the 1940's -- 1950's, but are somewhat passe now, with the prevelance of pantyhose. Probably most guys today would get all hot and bothered over a girl's navel piercing--(I mean, c'mon, why else is she doing it? Because she hopes he'll look!!)

Anyway, the desire for muscle is somewhat of the same thing. Since the 1920's and on, muscles have connotated strength, masculinity, competence, ability, and accomplishment, among other things. The Weiders, and other publishers consciously evoked the tanned, healthy, Southern California lifestyle when promoting bodybuilding. Therefore, if someone is a bodybuilder, they are healthy, tanned, confident, built, attractive to other people on a sexual level and competent. [I'm not saying that any or all of these statements are true, just that that is what the whole bodybuilder lifestyle in the magazines is supposed to evoke.] Since most of us not living in a perpetually sunny climate rarely have the chance to run around tanned and shirtless, it's a real turn-on when we see it.

I suspect that if we grew up or lived in an area where there were incredibly built guys and girls running around all the time with minimal clothing, and they treated it like it was nothing special, after a while we would be similarly blase. Then, of course, we'd get all excited about the pasty-white, sculpted gymnasts on tv at the Olympics!


Mdlftr

[glammaman2000]

big muscle is GREAT in your mouth;&nobody wants to suck on your brain.

[ARCHEON]

Originally Posted by massingUP

This group is organized around celebrating and desiring truly MASSIVE muscle, and lots of the growth stories often revolve around issues of power, revenge, thwarted and/or achieved masculinity. So what does that say about us and our own perspectives on our masculinities, our places in the world, etc? I can't speak for anyone else, and I' still trying to figure some of these issues out for myself, but I'd sure be interested to find out what people have to say...

First off, let me just say I?m continually amazed at the depth, intelligence and level of sophisticated thinking in this thread. It?s really a tribute to the members of this forum who make up such a diverse cross-section of erudite people. I concur practically with everything said in this thread but I?d also like to impart some appreciation for the comments offered here before I share my own.

Thanks, massingUP for posing such an interesting question to the group and asking us to contribute personal perspectives on our masculinity and place in the world. For glammaman2000 who imparts a historical perspective of turn-of-the-century colloquialisms and the power words will always have upon us. For ottomun6 who so aptly describes the effect of seeing a well-developed physique clothed and its? subtle, yet direct impact on us. And for buffdoc who speaks plainly that we are all somewhat subjected by a ?Madison Avenue Mindfuck? that pervasively influences every aspect of our lives. I was also particularly moved by his excruciatingly heartfelt expression of growing up, recognizing his sexual orientation and struggling with his own inner conflicts while ultimately growing into a unique individual through a personal desire to lift and train.

I cannot offer any scholarly historical perspective or illuminate on the ?dangers? of an Adonis Complex. I can only offer my own experiences and be as honest and critical of my own perspectives on masculinity. For me it centers on one of my earliest childhood memories. I was 7 or 8 at the time. I remember being introduced to an athlete friend of my father?s at a company picnic. His body was incredibly built and he had huge arms and a chest that just bulged out of a polo-like shirt. (What is it about that damn shirt!) I remember his arms because I just gawked at him. I said something about how big they were (never seeing anything like that before) and he bent down, flexed, and let me take a feel. I won?t go into what was going through my head at the time. But later, we were in a potato sack race together. I got a chance to see and feel other things to the point of practically being aroused for the first time. Needless to say, I had no clue as to what was happening. Before that situation, I had no previous influences of GI Joe dolls with huge muscles. I was too young to have paged through a copy of some muscle mag nor had I watched any muscle cartoons at that point to socially influence me. It just happened, right there on that day. To this day, I sometimes wonder if that whole situation hadn?t taken place, what my life would be like today.

From that day on, each day became a new experience into hiding my obsession with muscle and dealing with the fact that I was a classic ectomorph. I have written on other threads about how early muscle cartoons had begun to influence me and my notion of strength and masculinity. From then, my life became sort of a dual existence. Admiring the strength and prowess, but lamenting on the fact that I was painfully skinny in high school. By the time I reached college, I began to seriously work out and train. Desperately trying to achieve what I envied and admired. I even briefly took anabolic steroids under medical supervision. All through this time, I was addressing my own personal issues with an Adonis Complex. Even now, as I age and continue to re-evaluate my own personal physical ideal, my thinking has now been altered to the point that I view the perfect body as that of a computer generated image. Many of you may know of it. The image is produced by ManofSteel, a member of this forum. The character?s name is David McAllister and he?s ginormously humongous! And here I am, a rational adult male with a professional career and mortgage, and I would kill to be this CGI?s size.

Am I a product of the Adonis Complex? Probably. Do I want to be? Here?s the kicker -- I?m not sure.

[claygrant]

Wow. So many good posts here. I don't think I can write a polished, well-thought post as it is the end of the day and I'm tired. But I'll throw my thoughts in the mix. Buffdoc asked what the "underlying motivation and attraction toward muscle" is. One of my major motivations is to be fully confident, physically. My older brother had an influence on my self-image throughout childhood, as he has called me prissy, effeminate, weak, and skinny. So I remember wishing I had He-Man's body so I could walk into a room and feel fully confident and superior to everyone else.

You might stop me at this point and ask, "superior"? And the dark answer is yes. I think one of my main motivations (and fears) is that if I were monstrously huge like Jay Cutler, I'd be a total jerk. Somehow I associate huge muscle with cockiness, and it's somewhat disturbing. I put high value on courtesy, altruism, and good manners, so why would I be attracted to or want to become the opposite of that? Maybe because my simple answer to my lack of self-esteem is to go overboard with confidence, to become the stereotypically arrogant, buff guy. Sounds like I need to grow up and realize that confidence doesn't mean I have to throw out any of my good, more classically feminine qualities such as compassion and sincerity.

[BigSteve6ft3]

I haven't read "The Adonis Complex," but I've read enough about it to get the idea.

I have to disagree with idea that the fascination or obsession with attaining a muscular physique is somehow a new, modern phenomenon. One thing I've begun to appreciate through all my reading and travels is how old and fundamental this fascination is. Sure, at different times and places it may be either open and close to the surface, as it is now, or just not talked about, as in Victorian times, but it's always there.

Going back a century and a half, Mark Twain, in "Life on the Mississippi," described how he and other boys idolized a certain steamboat crewman, a tall fellow with bulging muscles, as being "what every boy aspired to become." In "Roughing It," Twain, a man of slight build, openly admired and envied the muscles of his friend and mining partner during his Nevada prospecting days. He joked about how incompetent at digging and hauling he himself was, and marveled at the ease with which his muscular buddy did pretty much all the work on their mining claim.

A bit later, in the 1870's, a young Teddy Roosevelt began his transformation from a skinny, sickly child, to a famously muscular man. (Read "The Rise of Theodore Roosevelt" by Edmund Morris. It's a great book. It also provides a refreshing example of an honest, reform-minded politician to contrast with today's pathetic crop. We could really use someone like Teddy now!) As a child, Teddy was so sickly, his parents feared for his survival. In one memorabl episode, Teddy's father, a man of imposing physique, tells his skinny, asthmatic son, "To succeed in the world, you need both a mind and a body. God has given you a fine mind. But *you* must build your body." At that, he bought excerise equipment for his son. Teddy applied himself in what would become a lifelong obsession, and succeeded at casting off his frail physique. By the time Teddy was in college, he had gained a reputation as a boxer, and can be seen posing shirtless for a photograph. Roosevelt maintained his muscle obsession throughout his life. By the time he was elected president, he had grown to become the familiar beefy, bull-necked 200-pounder who enjoyed impressing guests with feats of strength. He also befriended proto-bodybuilder Eugene Sandow.

Now to go way back. I traveled to Italy a couple years ago, and visited a bunch of ancient Roman sites, including Pompeii and Herculaneum. I was fascinated to learn that the ancient Romans pumped iron. You can see pictures of dumbell-lifting men painted on the walls of the baths at Herculaneum. Roman "baths" were really gigantic health clubs, which included both pools and a gym. Amongst the artifacts from Pompeii, I saw a bronze pig sculpture, filled with lead, with a handle on its back. This pig was a fancy, rich man's dumbell. Just looking at Roman sculpture, you can see that the Romans were just as muscle-obsessed as we are today. Unlike the classical Greek male ideal, which was a sort of a swimmer's physique, Roman male statues are impressively muscular and vascular, approaching bodybuilder proportions in some cases. I also read that Romans cultivated muscle out of a sense of morality. They believed it was decadent and immoral to let your body go, and that honorable men made an effort to stay in shape (they were a militaristic culture, after all, and combat was hand-to-hand.).