Insulin and Muscle Growth

[mojoheim]

Hope this is the right forum for this...

Anyways why I'm asking is I'm a type 1 Diabetic trying to do some bodybuilding. I'm hoping I can figure this out as its the one aspect of bodybuilding I don't understand and I think I should. I am learning the excercises, know the diet, been 3 months prepping for this and am biting at the bit to get going.

First off for those of you that don't know what Type 1 Diabetes is. I have to give myself shots of inuslin throughout the day. What I'm trying to figure out is how I should be injecting to emulate how the insulin works in bodybuilder's diet. I have a theory...just want to see if it checks out.

What I'm seeing is bodybuilders eat complex carbs at regular intervals. Preferably foods of a higher glucemic index. What this does from my understanding is attempting to avoid blood glucose spikes; which leads to an insulin spike which leads to the body storing calories as body fat.

Wont bore you with how I have to inject to mimic this...but hoping thats a fairly clear picture on how things are working.

[Slevin]

I think that is a question for your endocrinologist. If you have never done routine exercise like this before your insulin will most likely have to be adjusted or at the very least the interval you take the insulin.

Many people get into trouble because they have an initial release of catacholemine which gives you a feeling of energy during workouts but in reality your blood sugar is dropping.

Rather than trying to mimic a bodybuilders insulin intake you should first be able to maintain balance with your own insulin levels. If insulin is too high or too low it will adversely affect the growth of muscle tissue.

[yobdior]

Originally Posted by mojoheim

What I'm seeing is bodybuilders eat complex carbs at regular intervals. Preferably foods of a higher glucemic index. What this does from my understanding is attempting to avoid blood glucose spikes; which leads to an insulin spike which leads to the body storing calories as body fat.

Wont bore you with how I have to inject to mimic this...but hoping thats a fairly clear picture on how things are working.

Yes, BBers eat complex carbs, protein and fats regularly, typically of LOW G.I. (not high GI), since high GI would produce blood sugar spikes. The idea is to maintain a constant low-level release of insulin (highly anabolic), as well as protein, for metabolic processes (though post-workout most attempt to achieve a high-GI induced 'spike').

If you are eating 5-6 meals a day, then you would obviously be looking to achieve a pretty level insulin profile throughout that period, bearing in mind, however, that during training your blood sugar will fall, although I imagine you are adept at understanding how exercise affects this if you are contemplating bodybuilding.

[mojoheim]

Yeah first off I always get whether GI should be high or low wrong. I know Whole grains over white bread, Yams over potatoes, Apples over any other fruit. A bodybuilder's diet is already pretty much identical to a diabetic's, a typical diabetics being lighter in Protein compared to a bodybuilder.

My Endo is totally for me gaining some muscle mass...why its taken a few months to get here, they wanted me to learn to control my blood sugar so its stable, they wanted me to figure out how my body handles the exercise load I plan on doing.

Whats been happening is that for a few days after I work out, my body's insulin needs drop drastically. I had heard somewhere that not only does insulin provide glucose to the muscles to convert to glucogen, it also delivers amino acids for growth/repair. So I was concerned that lower insulin levels are a bad thing till I started doing research, only place I could find information was Wikipedia. So decided to throw it out to a group of people I thought would be able to help, and you guys did.

And for workouts, due to school/work schedules. They happen within an hour of supper. And I don't bolus for supper, I simply rely on whatever insulin is left in my system, which so far has worked out fairly well. Then I bolus after my workout as I'm downing a Peanut Butter and Jam sandwich or something.

But yeah. Hopefully I'll have this whole thing figured out then I can start flying solo (Not totally, have a friend who's getting into weight lifting as well I'm not comfortable working out by myself with the added complications, and we've alerted the staff of the gym I'm working out at...and they all know me)

[yobdior]

Originally Posted by mojoheim

Whats been happening is that for a few days after I work out, my body's insulin needs drop drastically. I had heard somewhere that not only does insulin provide glucose to the muscles to convert to glucogen, it also delivers amino acids for growth/repair. So I was concerned that lower insulin levels are a bad thing till I started doing research, only place I could find information was Wikipedia. So decided to throw it out to a group of people I thought would be able to help, and you guys did.

And for workouts, due to school/work schedules. They happen within an hour of supper. And I don't bolus for supper, I simply rely on whatever insulin is left in my system, which so far has worked out fairly well. Then I bolus after my workout as I'm downing a Peanut Butter and Jam sandwich or something.

But yeah. Hopefully I'll have this whole thing figured out then I can start flying solo (Not totally, have a friend who's getting into weight lifting as well I'm not comfortable working out by myself with the added complications, and we've alerted the staff of the gym I'm working out at...and they all know me)

Your endocrinologist should have made it very clear to you that exercising improves insulin sensitivity quite significantly. If he didn't do this, he's obviously not very good at his job! If you exercise consistently, your insulin requirements will fall quite a bit. This is what you really need to get sorted out before going full-pelt at training, as each person's sensitivity changes uniquely.

Insulin doesn't really 'deliver' more protein to the cells, although that's what even very well informed people may tell you sometimes. What it is theorised to actually do is prevent protein catabolism and gluconeogenesis (the production of glucose from protein). Insulin also inhibits fat oxidation, which is why eating fatty foods during insulin peaks can lead to fat gain/lipogensis. The theory is that without fats and proteins entering body cells, it creates a clear pathway for increased glucose uptake. Essentially, insulin forces the body's cells to rely on circulating glucose for energy. Which is why it's essential to ensure those glucose levels remain in a healthy range, so you don't become hyper or hypo glycaemic, and potentially enter a coma.

I'm somewhat concerned that your diet is not exactly where it should be, with your mentioning of a 'peanut butter and jam sandwich' after workouts. You really should aim for a good amount of quality protein and carbohydrates after a workout. Something like a shake made from whey, oats, and say a banana being a popular choice.

Hope this helps

[mojoheim]

Yeah figuring out and tweaking my insulin has been part of whats taken so long. The first little bit was swapping me over to a different insulin that acts a lot faster, therefore has a more pronounced affect. Getting me used to that and recalibrating my controls. Then he had me working out alongside a trainer who has experience with Diabetics, because they can tell you a billion times what to expect to happen but until you actually get out there and do it yourself you don't realize how big of an impact it has.

My Endo kept telling me that the impact would be significant..so at the time I was giving myself 35 units at meals...I figured the way he was talking that would mean maybe 28 maybe units instead (20% was significant in my mind) We are talking closer to needing closer to 20 units at meals for a good 48 hours after the workout. I realize I didn't make this clear, I was shocked at how well its helped already, I'm very excited about the prospects of what happens when my body starts adjusting.

My Endo has told me about my body needing less insulin as you work out regularily and your body adjusts. What he says it is, is your body stops trying to store fat so instead of your insulin needs doing double duty with storing of body fat, and delivery of insulin it frees up more insulin to deliver glucose to the muscles for storage as glucogen.

Right now they have me on a diet eating 300 grams of Carbs a day, 105 grams of Protein (Which I know isn't enough), and 50 grams of fat. Spread out during the day so I'm eating no more than 3.5 hours apart. At 223 lbs they have used electric impedence to test my Body Fat at 22% (Which I think may be a little low), I'm 5'11".

The PB&J thing is a bit of shock...I prefer solid foods if I can get them, and to me a PB&J sandwich was a pretty good snack until I got home and could prepare something a little more substantial. The PB&J was basically started as a way of getting glucose back into my system quickly (Jam) while giving it some protein/fat (PB) and a longer lasting carb (12 Grain Bread) as my blood sugars tended to be low (mid to low 4s on the Canadian scale, not sure what that is in America). Usually when I get home I have my Chicken Faighitas (Grilled Chicken in Whole Wheat Pitas, with Grilled Bell Peppers, Onions, and salsa...I love those things , usually have a dozen of them prepped in the fridge to grab for lunches and stuff)

But thanks for the help, my Endo is not totally knowledgeable about Bodybuilding and stuff. But he totally backs me cause he sees nothing wrong with me incorporating a bodybuilding lifestyle into my control plan (He's warned me to avoid Steroids and a few types of supplements that have adverse affects on your blood glucose, information I'm glad to have.) and honestly part of this is to make myself healthier, I don't ever imagine myself on stage just want to be bigger and healthier.

[collegemuscle]

22% isn't low.. actually most bodybuilders try to keep around 17 or below during a bulking phase. I'm surprised you're considering increasing your insulin. As a diabetic you should know that doing so could cause you to go into a coma or die if not done properly. It sounds like you have a lot more research to do. how long have you been working out???? most people should train for at least 5 years and be over 22 or 23 years of age first to see where their natural genetic potential can take them before taking any outside sources to enhance their physique. Further more, you'll need to take a surplus of testosterone and/or growth hormone to make your gains worth the risk if you're going to increase your insulin... otherwise you'll probably just get a headache, dizzy, after your workout with the same results you were getting before you started increasing your insulin...
I agree, talk to a doctor or someone with experience IN PERSON before you start doing that..

[mojoheim]

Okay, just a few things I want to say.

First off I don't ever recall saying I was doing this without a doctor or two or three's supervision. I currently have my Family Physcian, an Endocronologist, then another medical doctor who specializes in sports nutrition and medicine all consulting me on my fitness goals.

When I said I thought 22% was low what I meant was I think that figure seems a little low, personally I think I'm closer to the mid 20s percent wise for body fat.

I know my wording hasn't painted the clearest pictures, but what I came to these forums trying to find out was if what I was being told in theory was what you guys seemed to find how things really worked. I've always beleived that theory can only teach you so much, that you can a guy to do something time and time again, but until he actually goes out and does it he's not going to get a true understanding of how it works. Again as I mentioned I thought that my Endo's drastic was on a different scale then my drastic. It wasn't till I went out and went through a full totally supervised (was actually hooked up to a Continous Glucose Monitoring device, so I had real time results so I was getting a fairly in depth feeling of how my sugars were dropping) workout that I understood to what extent my body's insulin levels dropped. Not quite the 50% of what some people have claimed, but 43% was much higher than the 20% I thought it was going to be.

The problem with Medical professionals is that I only get to see them for an hour every other week IF I'm lucky. While the information I can grab off the internet and forums allows me to inform myself enough to be able to bring a properly thought out and planned question to my doctor and discuss it well enough so that things become clear in my mind. So what this forum was me taking what I learnt from books, my medical professionals, and other sources and trying to see if I was understanding it as well as I thought so I could bring the question to my doctor later that week, as my Endo tends to get into long winded discussions about the exact medical nature. Which I have to tell you, learning about this stuff before hand helps me get a clear enough picture of whats happening so that if I don't understand I ask him to clarify.

Because when it comes down to it. Its my body, I kinda want to know whats going on in it.

[yobdior]

Don't worry. I think the guy just misunderstood your posts and also wanted to launch into the whole bodybuilding brotelligence-lore that you should reach your 'natural potential' and have been training for about 60 years and proven how 'hardcore' you are before daring to take any PEDs. Which isn't necessarily incorrect advice. But not exactly what you were asking about.

I would seriously reconsider your diet though. There's negligible protein in a PB&J sandwich (and it's a very incomplete source), and quite a bit of fat which isn't the best thing right after a workout when you're so much more sensitive to insulin - as the fat is mostly going to get stored as bodyfat, not utilised for energy.

What is your daily diet like? Post up a rough plan and I'll give you some advice if you want.

[mojoheim]

Not mentioning stuff that has no macronutrients (The first breakfast for example I usually mix in some bell peppers, onions, and a little pepper with the eggs to make it bigger), I also have a 500 mililitre (Think thats 2 cups right?) water bottle I pack with me all the time...and refill that thing between classes...I find the air so dry at my College my throats always dry so I've just started drinking water.

Breakfast - 8 AM

2 peices 12 grain bread toasted, 2 whole eggs, 3 egg whites

Or

1 cup of Oatmeal (Dry...like cup and half prepared...comes to 30 grams carbs anyways.) half cup diced apple, cup of Skim Milk on Oatmeal, 2 cups of Skim Milk to drink. (For mornings when I'm in a rush.)

Snack - 11 AM

Cup Low fat, low sugar yogurt with 3/4 cup Cheerios

Lunch - 1 PM

2 Chicken Pitas (1/2 Chicken Breast, on whole wheat wrap (15 grams Carbs))

1 Peanut Butter Low Sugar Jam sandwich, apple

Or If I feel like spoiling myself. I get a 12 inch Double Turkey/Chicken Breast sub from Subway (No cheese, no sauce, lots of veggies.) Have them cut it in 3 and thats a Lunch, and 2 snacks.

Snack - 3:30 PM

Unsalted Stonewheat thin crackers (5), 2 ounces low fat cheese.

Supper - 6:00 PM. Varies greatly...this is my toughest meal. Our Grandma lives with us and she usually prepares dinner...and she's a Steak and Potatoes kinda girl. I've tried to get across maybe using Ground Turkey instead of Ground Beef, Yams instead of potatoes...

I do whatever I can though...if she makes Pork Chops I cut off any fat I can see. If she's made Mashed potatoes, I grab a peice of bread (At worse the worst bread we'll have in our house is 60% whole Wheat...though usually we have 100% Whole Wheat at least.).

9:30 PM Snack - 1 Cup Low Fat Cottage Cheese with handful (3/4 cuppish) berries.

This is a fairly typical day (Non-Workout obviously)...Workout I usually have essentially a second supper instead of the 9:30 Snack about an hour earlier. Plus a PBJ sandwich, or Chicken Pita (Made with white pita though...for the faster carbs.), then around 10:30 I usually have the 9:30 snack as I'm getting ready for bed...also it should be mentioned that I do take one multi-vitamin every morning...just a habit I had from when I was younger and was a fussier eater...

[BIGJOEY]

a fair amount of bodybuilders do us einsulin for growth. if you want more detailed information then let me know its a lot of info to type out here. But have gained 30lbs in 6 weeks using it