The next time you argue about Gay Marriage

[xythan_shadow]

I've thought about this long and hard and I've talked to a few of my friends, both straight and gay, and the argument I've come up with has yet to get a rebuttal.

The first thing you do is ask them "Why?"

The normal response for the people who are against it will be "Because marriage is between a man and a woman."

My response then is "Why? Where does it say that?"

This part is key. A lot of people will say the Bible of course.

I then tell them that they above all people should be worried about that, because if they make a law saying that marriage is between a man and a woman, they take the first step down a very slippery slope.

I continue, "So, does that mean a Hindu couple is married in your eyes? They don't believe in the bible, so what makes their marriage any less valid? How bout a Buddhist or an Atheist. Does that mean all their marriages are no good?"

"Plus, if you start making laws based on religion, then what version of the bible do you follow? I can think of at least five different translations of the same text. And since you're pulling a law from Leviticus (I studied with my mother when she was getting her theology degree) let's see if you're obeying the law yourself, because obviously you wouldn't want to be a hypocrite and hold everyone else to the law except you right?

Have you shaved your beard or sideburns anytime in your life?
Have you eaten any pork?
Are you wearing two different types of fabrics?

I could go on, but I hope the point gets across. The moment you make one rule based on something "religious" you open a door that you don't wanna see get opened. That is one step away from creating a state church, something our founding fathers explicitly didn't want happening.

The beauty about this argument is it doesn't matter if you're gay straight asexual whatever. You're simply trying to make them realize that basing a law solely on religion is bad thing.

My personal belief is "religion" is bad, "spirituality" is good, but sometimes it just takes you flat out calling people a hypocrite for them to even think past the old "Gays are an abomination" argument.

What is even more funny is that Christians are supposed to be not bound by the old law through the death of Jesus. So, they are basically calling their lord and savior a liar when they apply the old testament to people. See how many "Christians" you can piss off with that.


Ok, now I'm going to bed. Have fun debating all.

[WhoDunIt]

Gotta agree with you here

[brent]

I have to voice my agreement with you on this. From my understanding of the bible, divorce isn't allowed without cause, and rape victims must marry the man that raped them. I love how people pick and choose bits of the Bible based on what's convenient for them.

[Lila]

Well, I don't really think religion is a bad thing in general. Sure, religion has caused plenty of wars and there are plenty of extremists from every of religion -- but there are also many religious people who are very open, kind, and not extremists.

Anyway, about gay marriage. Personally... I don't even think this should be a legal issue. What's the big deal if people of the same sex marry each other? It doesn't effect anyone else, it doesn't really effect the economy, or anything significant (obviously it effects people themselves, but in the scheme of things it shouldn't be such a controversial issue).

If people are against gay marriage so much, then fine -- don't marry someone who is the same sex as you, it's that simple. :P It's just a shame to see that all those bills banning gay marriages in three states ended up passing... even if Obama being elected (in my opinion) is a great thing for the US, there's obviously still a lot of hate out there.

[xythan_shadow]

In my mind, there's a difference between religion and sprituality.

Religion is the institue. It's a bunch of rules and habits that men made up to basically control the members.

Spirtuality is what drives people to do the right thing in their eyes. You can be spirtual without being religious and vice-versa.

If more people were spirtual instead of religious, we wouldn't be having this discussion because they would be the first to realize that you shouldn't judge others.

But Religion has to have everything around them conform to their rules. It goes back to a need to have control over everything, which you can't do. That's why you hear so many people wailing and complaining that rock&roll/television/video games/gays/hot issue #37 is going to destroy the fabric of our lives. They just can't come to grips with the fact that you won't be able to control everything and no matter how many rules you come up with, there's always exceptions.

It's silly, I know science isn't perfect, but when the majority of the world thinks one way and a few small subsets of people come up with an off the wall, illogical explaination of something, and in their minds their answer is the only right one, how can they not see the error in their ways. (I cite the group of people that think the world is only a few thousand years old and people rode on dinosaurs, etc.)

What happens when scientists find a gene that is linked to homosexuality? I look forward to that day so I can hear the fundamentalists go "Um um um um, well you see, we just don't believe you're right"

Back to the subject, marriage is just a tradition anyway. If they don't want to "ruin the santicty of marriage" (as if the high divorce rate is somehow preserving it), give us something that gives us the same legal rights as a man and a woman who get together and say "I do" in front of authority.

[Mad Dog]

Spirtuality is what drives people to do the right thing in their eyes.

I thought that was morality.

[TheMM]

Originally Posted by Mad Dog

I thought that was morality.

Morality, to me at least is more of the "proper" thing to do (when you think of it purely in "Western" terms). However spirituality is the "right" thing to do. But do note that "right" is a VERY ambiguous term between religions (and even different groups of the same religion).

I know that don't make much sense, or may not even be what X_S was talking about.

[Lila]

Originally Posted by xythan_shadow

In my mind, there's a difference between religion and sprituality.

Religion is the institue. It's a bunch of rules and habits that men made up to basically control the members.

Spirtuality is what drives people to do the right thing in their eyes. You can be spirtual without being religious and vice-versa.

Like the person above said, that can also be morality. People can be religious and spiritual at the same time. I myself am agnostic, so I suppose that would make me spiritual -- but I still have friends who identify as religious and that doesn't mean they're just moronic pawns of the catholic church. :P

Originally Posted by xythan_shadow

If more people were spirtual instead of religious, we wouldn't be having this discussion because they would be the first to realize that you shouldn't judge others.

There are always going to be ignorant people. There are always going to be different religions. Unfortunately not everyone in the world can be magically cured of their ignorance and made open-minded.

Originally Posted by xythan_shadow

That's why you hear so many people wailing and complaining that rock&roll/television/video games/gays/hot issue #37 is going to destroy the fabric of our lives. They just can't come to grips with the fact that you won't be able to control everything and no matter how many rules you come up with, there's always exceptions.

I wouldn't say that all of those things have to do with religion. Video games / television / music has always been a big deal to many people... mainly because they want something to blame for their failed parenting, I suppose? Who knows. :P

Originally Posted by xythan_shadow

It's silly, I know science isn't perfect, but when the majority of the world thinks one way and a few small subsets of people come up with an off the wall, illogical explaination of something, and in their minds their answer is the only right one, how can they not see the error in their ways. (I cite the group of people that think the world is only a few thousand years old and people rode on dinosaurs, etc.)

Because they're crazy and uneducated, of course.

Originally Posted by xythan_shadow

What happens when scientists find a gene that is linked to homosexuality? I look forward to that day so I can hear the fundamentalists go "Um um um um, well you see, we just don't believe you're right"

I think it'll be interesting if they ever find that out, but it's probably going to be a bad thing, not a good thing. I can just imagine parents going to the doctor in a frenzy to make sure their child isn't gay. :| I hope I don't live to see that day, regardless.

Originally Posted by xythan_shadow

Back to the subject, marriage is just a tradition anyway. If they don't want to "ruin the santicty of marriage" (as if the high divorce rate is somehow preserving it), give us something that gives us the same legal rights as a man and a woman who get together and say "I do" in front of authority.

Hopefully the government will if this whole ban on gay marriage sticks in states. It'd just be easier to allow gay marriage to be legal everywhere, but that would just be too easy.

[Rowan]

Originally Posted by xythan_shadow

What happens when scientists find a gene that is linked to homosexuality? I look forward to that day so I can hear the fundamentalists go "Um um um um, well you see, we just don't believe you're right"

It's terrifying, but I don't see them doing that. I see them embracing it and then announcing that homosexuality is a disease that can be easily 'cured' in the womb.

I don't think that religion and spirituality have to be mutually exclusive. There are pastors putting themselves out there to perform same sex marriages, after all. Unfortunately, zealots tend to have the loudest voices, and they take things to such extremes that they forget the spirit in favor of the over translated and in many ways obsolete letter.

Steps forward are often met with violent shoves in the opposite direction. But more and more people *are* moving forward, and I have faith that someday soon we'll look back on things like Prop 8 and go, "What the hell was that all about?" like most of us do with interracial marriage and segregated water fountains.

[xythan_shadow]

I don't think religion and spirituality have to mutually exclusive either. But I do believe that they are two seperate things. It's like Religion is blue, spirtuality is yellow.

You have some yellow people, you have some blue peole and you have some green people. But you also have some blue people thinking they're green and then you have some red people think they're yellow.

Hooray for colors!

[chocomus]

Originally Posted by xythan_shadow

I don't think religion and spirituality have to mutually exclusive either. But I do believe that they are two seperate things. It's like Religion is blue, spirtuality is yellow.

You have some yellow people, you have some blue peole and you have some green people. But you also have some blue people thinking they're green and then you have some red people think they're yellow.

Hooray for colors!

I like red...
whatever
Maybe they are diferents, but i think one can be a source for the other.

I consider myself a christian, religious and spiritual. And also gay. Never thoiught that was a problem when most religions talk about love, and not hate. Maybe i'm just looking away from things I don't like to see.
I think you can be spiritual without being religious, but I don't think you can't be religious without being spiritual (at least, not for a long time). In my case, acting good is a result in my religious familiar emviroment, but I don't need to think about god or jesus or whatever to do the good/right thing.

Many people know that the bible is full of metaphors. So I don't understand why some are so strict about everything it says. We have to follow Jesus steps... so what? Did he married? if he did... who with? Did he had sex anytime? should we stay virgin till we die so the human race extincts?

Maybe this is a bit stupid to say, or at least obvious, but if love is the message, then why hating others for what they are? That hasn't got any sense

If I talk about what I know of best, my own religion, I have to say that those "christians" who are untolerant and haters are not christians in my eyes. Because they forget what's the real important thing. To love and care for others. I wish they could realize about it.

Sorry for the long whining. Sometimes I get so annoyed by my own religion... I guess i'll have to be tolerant with what they think too. How troublesome...

[Minotaur]

I get into arguments all the time on the Religion-Politics forum @ bodybuilding.com over this. You can ask until you're blue in the face, if Hindu or atheist or Buddhist marriages are valid, and you will not get an answer. They run and hide and skirt the issue after parroting that God gave marriage to man and woman. It's just banging your head against a stone wall. I've tried every thing I can think of to trap them, and they just slip away.