"Ha Ha!", "haha!", & "Haha!"...

[Lover_Boy]

[COLOR=red]...What is the deal with that? I keep seeing it in stories of late. I know these stories are fiction, of course, but I also know the authors strive to make them seem plausible.[/COLOR]

[COLOR=#ff0000]- I know that putting it in the story at a certain moment denotes a certain attitude change (usually cockiness/arrogance). But honestly, who ever says that in real life? I'm sure there's a better literary way to show this change.[/COLOR]

[COLOR=#ff0000]- Try it some time. Next time you're playing darts, pool, video games, etc., etc., try saying "Im gonna kick your ass, haha!"[/COLOR]

[COLOR=#ff0000]- Now, just so I can be clear (so I don't unintentionally start another flame war) I'm not complaining. I'm merely **voicing an opinion**. And in my opinion this little exclamation just doesn't sound right when i read it in a story.[/COLOR]

[wolfotehmoon]

I agree totally, but I would like to point out the irony that the person saying this has a Joker avatar.

[Mdlftr]

* GASP *

Ynuuh hu HA! [Dishonest John, from the "Beenie and Cecil" cartoons of the mid-1960s, a reference so obscure, I suspect only ArpeeJay will get it! ]

"And I would've gotten away with it, if it weren't for you meddling kids!" [Every bad guy in every episode of "Scooby Doo"]

"Damn, I'm Hot!" [said while caressing one's chest, arms and staring lovingly at one's image in a mirror]


"Check it out!" [Again, said with a sh#t-eating grin to the audience, while flexing, posing, strutting and generally showing off]

"Who's your Daddy?" [Ditto]

"!#*%$?!" [Oh, wait -- George Carlin already said that -- Seven times!]

"I have incredibly low self-esteem, and I can only feel good about myself by pumping up and flexing my muscles and pathetically seeking whatever crumbs of attention I can beg out of total strangers, who wouldn't p*ss on me if I were on fire, if I didn't have big _______[Fill in the blank with bodypart of choice] Oh, Wait....you're supposed to THINK this one, NOT say IT!
My bad.....



Mdlftr

[falseyedee]

haha!

[Poor Horatio]

I've tried twice to read the original post but the neon red font hurts my eyes. What's is the deal with THAT?

[hearmenowu2]

The thing i hate when a story turns to that is when they use '' FUCK YEAH!!!!'' while doing an action manly when there fuckin each other. It just bugs me so much so it does. Does anyone find that abit tiresome sometimes?

Also whenever i come to that part i always picture those old matt pics you see floating around the net. Not saying that its a bad thing just saying its like kicking a dead horse sometimes when that phrase is used over and over... and over again.

Im not really one to judge cause the writing i did recently here isnt that fantastic at all like it looks great in my head but when its on paper/typed out well... its shite basically lol so i would stick to what im good at which is Animation/drawing etc

So feel free to ignore this comment by all means. I just wanted to express my opinion on the matter. and... heres a smiley face....

hearmenowu2

[rextorres]

I don't use "ha ha ha" in my stories. I prefer "he he he" instead. In Spanish, it's "je je je".

[Jaypat]

I always interpreted haha as one of those nervous laugh kind of things, not someone literally saying ha ha. But then I use “Fuck yeah!” so what do I know?

[ny-boy]

I guess a lot of authors use it instead of saying something like "'check this out!', he said, then laughed." I have to agree with the OP, I'm not a big fan of it.

[Gene]

It's sort of an Onomatopoeic word. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onomatopoeia

But "ha-ha" as pronounced like it's spelled doesn't really imitate the sound of two quick contractions of the chest which is what many of us actually do when we have a quick little chuckle. "he-he" might be closer because it tends to be made with the mouth closed instead of open as when one is actually saying "ha" "ha". But it's still not right because there is too much "h" in it. The sound of a bi-spasmic thoracic burst is a rather quick gutteral sound difficult to capture in Latin based languages. I'm sure there is some language that has a letter for it but that's out of my league.

Is there a better "word"? I don't know. Perhaps "eh-eh"? Meanwhile just accept that you know what an "eh-eh", or "he-he" or "ha-ha" really is and let the spelling of it flow through you without snagging.

[Mad Dog]

You could always just write "so and so laughed."

[TemptationIV]

Personally it doesn't bother me, and believe me, I do have my own little pet-peeves. It may seem annoying to some to read it exactly as it's written, "haha," but I like to think of it simply as an expression that denotes a chuckle, laughter, cocky laughter, happiness, etc., depending on the context in which it is written. To me, it's much alike to the usage of "lol" in text messages. We know what it means without actually having to read it as "laugh out loud." Then again, I do agree that it's really the author's choice.

[giantw]

I can see adding "Haha" in stories. I've done it in my "Justin" and "Graham" stories. Sure, it can be abused, like any other word configuration, but a story about a dominant, arrogant muscle jock will necessarily require some arrogant laughter.

I don't want a flame war either Lover Boy. We've chatted before and I think you're really cool. But I have to say that your observation comes off as "nit-picking" or complaining, albeit politiely.

In the past year, I have seen authors take a lot of needless criticism for the content of their stories: from the ages of characters, to the level of violence, to the taboo themes touched, to even miniscule items such as the over-use of "haha." At the same time, I see that there are fewer stories being posted by authors whose contributions were once prolific.

All I am saying is this: the more you criticize these authors, the less they will post. Your criticism may be unwise, cruel or offered with the best intentions...if the author does not perceive it as constructive, then he will feel slighted, and will be less inclined to write stories. I've been asked to post some of my stories on this site, and yet one of the reasons I won't is because of some of the harsh critiques some users have felt compelled to make. You may talk about your right as users to comment on whatever you please, but I am just warning you: YOU ARE SCARING AWAY YOUR AUTHORS!

[wolfotehmoon]

Originally Posted by giantw

I can see adding "Haha" in stories. I've done it in my "Justin" and "Graham" stories. Sure, it can be abused, like any other word configuration, but a story about a dominant, arrogant muscle jock will necessarily require some arrogant laughter.

I don't want a flame war either Lover Boy. We've chatted before and I think you're really cool. But I have to say that your observation comes off as "nit-picking" or complaining, albeit politiely.

In the past year, I have seen authors take a lot of needless criticism for the content of their stories: from the ages of characters, to the level of violence, to the taboo themes touched, to even miniscule items such as the over-use of "haha." At the same time, I see that there are fewer stories being posted by authors whose contributions were once prolific.

All I am saying is this: the more you criticize these authors, the less they will post. Your criticism may be unwise, cruel or offered with the best intentions...if the author does not perceive it as constructive, then he will feel slighted, and will be less inclined to write stories. I've been asked to post some of my stories on this site, and yet one of the reasons I won't is because of some of the harsh critiques some users have felt compelled to make. You may talk about your right as users to comment on whatever you please, but I am just warning you: YOU ARE SCARING AWAY YOUR AUTHORS!

I think you're making too much of your latter points, and not enough of the former. "Ha, ha" IS extremely cliche at this point, and further, it often detracts from the story due to it's odd placement, overuse, or just not a good fit overall. I can't tell you how many times I read, "Man, my arms are HUGE, haha" and closed the window. How about, "He chuckled menacingly. 'Man, my arms are HUGE!'" or "'Man, my arms are HUGE!' he laughed."?

As for criticism, it shouldn't be driving people away, nor do I think it is. If you're doing it just for fun, ignore the naysayers. If you WANT a better story, consider what the criticism says; they might be right about your story's shortcomings. Soccerstud88 was an exception.

</heavydiscussion>

[giantw]

Wolf,

Whether criticism should or should not drive authors away is not the point. My point was that the criticism IS scaring away authors who feel that the readers are being ungrateful. You can argue that authors should welcome constructive criticism all day long. Ideally, that would be great, but that is not the case.

My point, once more, is that there is an inverse relationship between criticism and stories posted. The more people criticize, the less authors post. Keep criticizing and there may come a time when there are no stories left to criticize.

You've been a member since last June whereas I have been around for over four years. You may not think that the criticism is driving authors away, but based on my experience, it is.

Finally, the only thing exceptional about Soccerstud's departure was that he made a big stink about it when he left, instead of just fading away quietly. However, Soccertstud is a perfect example of a prolific author who became fed up with the criticism he was getting and opted to stop posting. If I remember correctly, the straw that broke the camel's back was something you had said about a story of his. Therefore, you of all people should appreciate the point I am trying to convey better than anyone.

[falseyedee]

i think that criticism is a good thing when done right. in this case lover-boy pointed out that many of us authors are using a phrase probably to excess. i take no exception to his point. i've probably done it myself. sometimes when you're writing, you get lazy. it takes time to edit what you've written and often, these kind of "short hand" phrases get left in.

this criticism was done right, in my mind. lover-boy didn't single anybody out for it, just made an observation about a cliche.

there have been writers who have either left the forum or stopped posting because of criticism. that's too bad. it's too bad for us, because we miss their writing, and it's too bad for them, because they've lost an audience. i hope they are STILL writing. writing is a skill that improves the more you do it...and the more you read other people's writing.

i am not posting as much as i used to for a number of reasons, not the least of which is that i'm working two jobs on top of writing for and administering my musclefiction.com website. i had to make some hard decisions about finances and increasing my income, and decided to sell my stories rather than give them away simply because i need the income. i still post here about my buddy's progress and will, eventually, post more installment of my American Muscle Freak story, because I truly value this community and want it to continue.

criticism is hard to take, even when well meant, and it's also hard to write without poking the fragile ego's of us writers. but, i still believe it's valuable. it is one of the ways that i learn and improve my writing and of learning what the readers like and don't like.

my 2 cents.

please be kind in reply.

[wolfotehmoon]

@Giant

This is why I think authors who don't LIKE criticism should ignore it, rather than blasting the people who write the criticism. And, yes, the number of stories posted has decreased as of late, but that is just a part of a pattern with any niche forum such as this: traffic picks up, stays steady for a while, then slows down, then picks up again. I've seen it happen here; this isn't my first account, FYI.

[giantw]

Wolf,

You argue that authors should ignore criticism they don't like. I guess that would beg the question: why shouldn't the readers simply ignore a story they don't like? Speaking as an author, I tend to read ALL the comments that are left for me. After all, I don't know whether they are negative or positive until I have read them. Therefore, I will necessarily read both good and bad reviews.

Are you suggesting that an author should try to erase negative comments from his mind once he has already read them and been upset by them? That's nonsense. Isn't it more plausible for the reader to simply keep his comments to himself? After all, it takes the author hours to write a story, but it only takes the reader thirty seconds to type some useless prattle under the guise of "critiquing" which may offend and upset the author. In short, I think the burden is on the reader to be more supportive in his comments or not comment at all.

If you feel blasted, that is not my problem. After all, you did reply to my post specifically. I just hate to see contributions from authors decrease because a few members feel the need to don the hat of literary critic only to discourage authors from submitting stories. I refuse to sit idly by without raising a warning to other members.

Much like the problem of global warming, I would not dismiss the decrease in stories as a mere cyclical phenomenon, as you seem to suggest. But I won't belabor this point further as I feel I have clearly expressed my thoughts on this subject. I'll leave you be so you can go back to critiquing the work that others have been kind enough to submit for free and for your personal enjoyment.

[DancingFish]

Originally Posted by Lover_Boy

[COLOR=red]...What is the deal with that? I keep seeing it in stories of late. I know these stories are fiction, of course, but I also know the authors strive to make them seem plausible.[/COLOR]

[COLOR=#ff0000]- I know that putting it in the story at a certain moment denotes a certain attitude change (usually cockiness/arrogance). But honestly, who ever says that in real life? I'm sure there's a better literary way to show this change.[/COLOR]

[COLOR=#ff0000]- Try it some time. Next time you're playing darts, pool, video games, etc., etc., try saying "Im gonna kick your ass, haha!"[/COLOR]

[COLOR=#ff0000]- Now, just so I can be clear (so I don't unintentionally start another flame war) I'm not complaining. I'm merely **voicing an opinion**. And in my opinion this little exclamation just doesn't sound right when i read it in a story.[/COLOR]

Hehe..that's kind of funny you brought that up. I always found it humorous when that said by a character.

Instead someone could put something like:

"I'm going to kick your ass," he said with blatant amusement in his voice.

or

With a cocky chuckle Adam (or "he") proclaims," I'm going to kick your ass."

or

"I'm going to kick your ass," he said plainly unable to hold back his proud laugh.



Yeah there's a lot of different things someone could put, but hey, whatever they are comfortable with is fine by me.

[wolfotehmoon]

Originally Posted by giantw

Wolf,

You argue that authors should ignore criticism they don't like. I guess that would beg the question: why shouldn't the readers simply ignore a story they don't like? Speaking as an author, I tend to read ALL the comments that are left for me. After all, I don't know whether they are negative or positive until I have read them. Therefore, I will necessarily read both good and bad reviews.

Are you suggesting that an author should try to erase negative comments from his mind once he has already read them and been upset by them? That's nonsense. Isn't it more plausible for the reader to simply keep his comments to himself? After all, it takes the author hours to write a story, but it only takes the reader thirty seconds to type some useless prattle under the guise of "critiquing" which may offend and upset the author. In short, I think the burden is on the reader to be more supportive in his comments or not comment at all.

If you feel blasted, that is not my problem. After all, you did reply to my post specifically. I just hate to see contributions from authors decrease because a few members feel the need to don the hat of literary critic only to discourage authors from submitting stories. I refuse to sit idly by without raising a warning to other members.

Much like the problem of global warming, I would not dismiss the decrease in stories as a mere cyclical phenomenon, as you seem to suggest. But I won't belabor this point further as I feel I have clearly expressed my thoughts on this subject. I'll leave you be so you can go back to critiquing the work that others have been kind enough to submit for free and for your personal enjoyment.

Well, first of all, I'm glad to know that you believe any points I make are comparable to views concerning global warming. *eyeroll* In any case, I still think you're mistaken, and only time will tell, in the return or non-return of former writers, or influx of new ones. Obviously, we disagree on this point and there's no way to prove either of us correct.

And as for who to lay the blame on, of course, personal responsibility plays a role, but the AUTHOR is the person who puts himself out there, and the AUTHOR is the one who chooses how to respond to criticism (or bashing, as you seem to make out all criticism to be). The thread is there's insofar as they are it's creator, and they're responsible for what opens the thread, and what replies are made to comments on the opening.

I think the people who truly enjoy writing about this subject will continue to post; those looking for simple back-patting can easily find it someplace else, and it seems like several have done so. I don't mourn the loss of writers who couldn't care less; I didn't pay attention to their works (much) while they WERE here. But everyone has the right to an opinion, and the right to express it as long as they're not putting someone down; criticism is acceptable because any negative feedback is solely a response to what was found in the originating work.

But that's really all I have to say. I'm not driving away people; it's their choice.

[MysteriousMist]

It's amazing how things have gotten sidetracked so easily, isn't it?


On-topic: It's understandable that some people like to put in laughter in that style, since it's an easy way of putting it together in text. I will agree that if it's used incorrectly, it does seem a bit forced to me. Still, I think that it's pretty situational. The way you've described it used does seem rather unnatural, since the laughter that I think of in that type of situation is quite different from a "Ha ha" laugh. It's probably a bit harder for people to describe things correctly, though.

In that situation, it's probably better used with the laughter described outside of quotations. Saying "Hehehe..." can be very vague, and I feel it would probably be seen better as describing it separately, call it a lighthearted chuckle, a dark snicker, a condescending giggle, or whatever would be best.


More Off-topic: My opinion on the subject is that posting that type of thing means that you're putting your work out into the public eye. It's a bit of a stretch to honestly believe that by doing so, you won't find people who aren't fond of your work, and will have disagreements on what's good. While I can understand the need for tact, I feel that it's a bit much to say that criticism should be withheld by everybody every time they find something they don't like.

With something like this, where you're just talking about how someone could improve their writing, it shouldn't be a problem. This is especially so since it's not even an attack, but a statement of someone's opinion. Honestly, from the majority of the responses, I can't see that anybody has a problem with it, and if these types of statements weren't even allowed, there wouldn't be much room for outside opinion on it. Practicing isn't exactly a great way to improve if you can't even see your own weaknesses.

Well, that's my 2 cents on the subject. Make of it what you will.

[RPM]

At least it's better than Japan. We could be writing "Kukukuku" instead of "Hahahaha".

[giantw]

Wolf, on your eyeroll:

I don't know if you know anything about the debate surrounding global warming, but some scientists have argued that it is not increased carbon gases in the air which is making the planet warmer, but rather the planet is growing warmer as part of a cyclical phenomenon. These scientists dismiss global warming as a periodic thing. In your post, you seem suggest that authors come and go, and that the present lull in posts is also periodic.

So your views are not "comparable to global warming." Global warming is a sound scientific theory while your posts fall far from that tree. But your logic is comparable to global warming's naysayers in that you believe the disappearance of authors is cyclical in nature.

The comparison I was making was based not on your theory, but your logic. I am sorry if that comparison was too difficult for you to understand. Obviously, to understand it, you would need to read up on global warming, but I imagine much of your time is spent here reading and critiquing the work of others. That sounds very demanding.

I wanted to see how you've dealt with constructive criticism in the past, but like all vociferous and demanding critics, you haven't contributed a single story to the site. Allow me to insert my own **eyeroll** at that.

[wolfotehmoon]

Giant,

I understood your comparison, and in addition to the MASSIVE amounts of hyperbole it imbued your argument with, it suggested that you put me in league with those loathsome detractors. Personally, I don't appreciate that, not just because global warming has been proven to exist, while your assertions about the departure of writers from this site are purely anecdotal, but also because it's quite a low and asshole-y thing to do. However, if we're going to be resorting to tactics like this, then I'd say that you comparing my views to that of global warming deniers is comparable to those who, not knowing how our president-elect will perform, compare his rise to Hitler's. Welcome to their company, my friend.

And as for your last assertion, well... http://www.musclegrowth.org/forum/sh...ad.php?t=12282
I posted that SOLELY to show that I DO write, and to receive criticism so that I may improve my writing, though I refrained from posting it in the story section because I did not want it to be seen as a rebuttal to SoccerStud88's assertions that I couldn't possibly know what it's like to receive criticism since I "don't write". The people who found it commented respectfully, and with praises and concern alike, while those who would only bash stayed away. I've never posted a completed story, so obviously bringing one to completion is my Achilles' Heel, but I DO write. Like him, I've found that you've come to the table assuming, wrongly, one too many things about myself. Nice, man. I know I said that last message was the last one I was gonna leave, but I figured I'd reciprocate the hypocrisy. I'm done with this one, though.

[giantw]

Wolf,

I'm enjoying toying with you, so I am going to have a few more goes at it. I love to expose people who think they're clever for the fools that they are.

Less stories are being posted. That is a fact which you admit to above. It is a fact which goes to the heart of my initial post, and is therefore not "anecdotal." It IS the argument I am making, and not some footnote of little consequence, such as an anecdote might be. Whether or not you consider this fact "anecdotal" is not relevant to my argument. So I am wondering why you even bothered to use the word. I think this is just an attempt on your part to sound clever by using the word "anecdotal." However, I would have been more impressed had it been used correctly.

What has been in ascendancy are the number of "literary critics" such as yourself and your criticism of authors who are posting stories, (1) for your collective gratification and (2) free of charge. This is an activity, not coincidentally, you have yet to engage in. That is the hallmark of the breed of self-annoited literary critics such as yourself which have polluted this site in the past year and contributed to an exodous/exile of authors.

I checked your posts, Wolf. You wrote a blurb which was an incomplete story idea, not an actual story. I imagine that's why, in a rare moment of clarity, you had the sense to post it under "story ideas" and not "stories." So I do not count you in the ranks of "authors."

However, you have been a prolific poster of criticism. Since you mentioned Soccerstud, let's see what pearls of wisdom you offered him when you exercised your right to critique his work. Let me quote it, since I fear the post is so damning, you may try to erase it at some point:

You wrote in response to Soccerstud's "He Won't Stop Growing, Part 1":

"...-____-;;; In all honesty? I've read this same story about a half dozen times before. And I'm sure it's been done dozens of times before. And really, it's never been good. Your writing, save a few grammatical and spelling errors, is okay. But, seriously... Let me put it this way: 1)Brothers do not pop boners over eachother. 2)Older brothers do not "whimper" at their younger brothers. (Really, dude? I've been smaller than my little brother since we were in elementary school and I've beat his ass atleast twice.) And those are just two examples.

If you're just writing something to get off to, then I guess it's okay to copy the same plot from someone else, with your ideal physique switched in. But if you want to write something of consequence(please, please try to), you need to start thinking about showing characters reacting REALISTICALLY to situations. As a matter of fact, save for the muscle growth itself, the situations themselves should be realistic. Your job, when writing something as outlandish(not an insult; most of the concepts in the stories on this forum are "out there") as this, is to suspend my urge to think, "Oh, god, that'd never happen. :/" To suspend my sense of disbelief. You don't do that by expecting me to believe that a guy, even a gay guy, would be so enamored by his brother's size that he'd *smell his clothes* and not back down when his brother's making passes at his girlfriend."

I boldfaced some of the things above for easy reference. Now Wolf, let me explain why any rational human being would find your critique insulting and far from constructive. I won't use any global warming metaphors this time because I don't want to confuse you.

To tell an author that his writing has "never been any good" is not constructive. It discourages the author from writing. Speaking as an author, authors tend to remember the sting of one negative review rather than the ten complimentary reviews. I ask you, how were you trying to help Soccerstud by telling him that his work was never any good?

Next, you implore that Soccerstud should try writing "something of consequence", even going so far as to whine "please, please try to." Again, how the hell is that supposed to motivate an author to write? I'm beginning to wonder if your goal was to STOP Soccerstud from writing. In which case, I would ask: Who the fuck are you to decide who should and should not write on this site? Who the fuck are you to deprive Soccerstud's fans of his writing by scaring him off? Based on this criticism and your post above, you seem to believe that you've been divinely assigned that right.

You must envision yourself as a Roman emperor (and not a good one), sitting up in the balcony of the Colosseum, a string of ivy behind one ear and a harp in one hand, whimisically giving authors a thumbs up or thumbs down despite their best efforts to please you in the public forum. All Hail Wolf!

You told Soccerstud that his job...HIS JOB...was to "suspend your urge to think."

Wolf, based on these posts, I don't think Soccerstud needed any story to accomplish this, as your brain seems to have suspended all thinking whatsoever. The people who post here, an ever-dwindling group due to withering criticism such as this, do it...AS A HOBBY. It is NOT a job, nor are YOU their boss.

This used to be a place where people could indulge their wildest fantasies in this fetish, and people could come and enjoy their work. You, and all the other "literary critics" on this site are ruining that. People don't want to post anymore because they are either afriad or disgusted with whiny, rude, demanding, and discouraging members such as yourself: members who won't admit what a cancer they are on this group; members who will argue illogically and pointlessly about their rights while the group is deprived of its REAL artists.

The reason people come to this site is not to read your "asshole-y" comments, but to enjoy the work (the stories and pictures) of others. Your critiquing is a needless hoop which nobody asked for, and nobody wants. You and your ilk need to take a deep breath and look around. It's not all about you and your needs. Stop ruining this site for the rest of us.

[jammgym2]

Never posted on this site before....but felt i had to with this. The last post hit the nail on the head! Completely agree.

[nj.]

I skipped over the off-topic posts, and this post has an [COLOR=Lime]on-topic[/COLOR] guarantee (30 day trial - not satisfied? You get your money back)

Originally Posted by Gene

But "ha-ha" as pronounced like it's spelled doesn't really imitate the sound of two quick contractions of the chest which is what many of us actually do when we have a quick little chuckle. "he-he" might be closer because it tends to be made with the mouth closed instead of open as when one is actually saying "ha" "ha". But it's still not right because there is too much "h" in it. The sound of a bi-spasmic thoracic burst is a rather quick gutteral sound difficult to capture in Latin based languages. I'm sure there is some language that has a letter for it but that's out of my league.

Is there a better "word"? I don't know. Perhaps "eh-eh"? Meanwhile just accept that you know what an "eh-eh", or "he-he" or "ha-ha" really is and let the spelling of it flow through you without snagging.

Not trying to argue here at all, just being technical for the sake of being informative.

In a very technical sense (from the field of phonetics) a chuckle would be a pulmonic egressive nareal fricative with a late voice onset. My spelling checker crossed out 3 of those words, so I'll explain: pulmonic = from the lungs; egressive = exhaling; nareal = concerning the nose; fricative = a sound that is made by forcing air through a narrow opening in the mouth or nose; voice-onset-time (VOT) = as soon as you start using your vocal chords.

I suppose with the sounds we normally make when we speak, 'fm' would be the most acoustically similar to the chuckle, but it's unfortunately not easy to pronounce.


(SORRY, I don't get to go overboard very often when it comes to phonetics. I'm usually too afraid it'll scare people off, haha. Or, fmfm, if you prefer).

[wolfotehmoon]

I don't take kindly to personal attacks. :| Hypocrisy rules the day; here's my response, because I refuse to stay silent in the face of such blatant attempts at character assassination.

Anecdotal: Based on casual observations or indications rather than rigorous or scientific analysis

You've yet to show me any FIRM statistics that the rate of story posting is going down, or is lower than at any time in the past. Until you come up with QUANTITATIVE data, you have nothing but anecdotal evidence.

To tell an author that his writing has "never been any good" is not constructive. It discourages the author from writing. Speaking as an author, authors tend to remember the sting of one negative review rather than the ten complimentary reviews. I ask you, how were you trying to help Soccerstud by telling him that his work was never any good?

First of all, you've either misunderstood or conciously twisted my words; I said that the story idea itself has never been any good. I stand by that assertion. REGARDLESS of the author, I find the concept of an older brother coming home to find that his younger brother has outgrown him cliche and without merit unless the execution of the story is novel in some way; Soccerstud is one of many authors who has used the concept to no greater consequence. So, speaking as an author myself, I can say that I have felt bad when told that my concept was unoriginal, but that I did not threaten to quit writing or drawing altogether when given such criticism, nor did I bash the reviewer. I simply accepted it as a fact that someone had used the idea before myself, and that for my work to be considered as good, I would have to improve my own art, in concept or execution. It is a shame that rather than do that, people would point fingers at the one who simply stated a truth. Shooting the messenger, how nice.


Next, you implore that Soccerstud should try writing "something of consequence", even going so far as to whine "please, please try to." Again, how the hell is that supposed to motivate an author to write? I'm beginning to wonder if your goal was to STOP Soccerstud from writing. In which case, I would ask: Who the fuck are you to decide who should and should not write on this site? Who the fuck are you to deprive Soccerstud's fans of his writing by scaring him off? Based on this criticism and your post above, you seem to believe that you've been divinely assigned that right.

Well, here we go. I wasn't going to mention this, but I was in contact with SS well after our public confrontation ended. Of course, not being either of us, you're not PRIVY to this sort of information. However, I'll open up: I told him that it was obvious that he was one of the few members of this site with the obvious passion to write many, many stories in a short space of time. I was merely imlying that, were he to spend more time on ONE piece, rather than churning out several, that they'd be much more a worthwhile read. I'm assuming this simple explanation wasn't something that even passed through your mind, though; you're just dead-set on attacking me.

You told Soccerstud that his job...HIS JOB...was to "suspend your urge to think."

Yes, just as it is the painter's job to convey through visual images, or a poet's job to convey life through carefully chosen, meaningful words, it is the JOB of a fiction writer to wrap what is, was, and might never be true, in a blanket of reality. When you choose to partake in an activity of some sort, you bind yourself to the rules of that activity. If you are unsuccessful at performing this task, your work is unsuccessful. Case. Closed. In this sense, it is indeed the JOB of an fiction author to suspend disbelief. If I were to play pickup soccer with my friends, as goalie and halfway through the game, I picked the ball up and ran around the field with it, I would have broken the rules INHERENT in the play of the game, and any criticism I received as a result would be completely warranted.

Wolf, based on these posts, I don't think Soccerstud needed any story to accomplish this, as your brain seems to have suspended all thinking whatsoever. The people who post here, an ever-dwindling group due to withering criticism such as this, do it...AS A HOBBY. It is NOT a job, nor are YOU their boss.

This used to be a place where people could indulge their wildest fantasies in this fetish, and people could come and enjoy their work. You, and all the other "literary critics" on this site are ruining that. People don't want to post anymore because they are either afriad or disgusted with whiny, rude, demanding, and discouraging members such as yourself: members who won't admit what a cancer they are on this group; members who will argue illogically and pointlessly about their rights while the group is deprived of its REAL artists.

The reason people come to this site is not to read your "asshole-y" comments, but to enjoy the work (the stories and pictures) of others. Your critiquing is a needless hoop which nobody asked for, and nobody wants. You and your ilk need to take a deep breath and look around. It's not all about you and your needs. Stop ruining this site for the rest of us.

I don't understand, personally, what you're goal in attacking me like this is. It's rude, it's dirty, and it's despicable. And it is unwarranted, because my personal actions here have not damaged the site in any way that I can perceive. Whatever issues YOU see are all in your mind, because you obviously cannot provide me with any REAL evidence. All you provide is your own word. You seem to suggest that your word is more worthy of recognition as truth than mine is? I think you've misunderstood who the one channeling Caesar is.

I seek only to provide my opinion. I believe it is constructive. Guess what? You have NO RIGHT to tell me that I cannot say it. You have every right to say that they are invalid, you have every right to ignore them, but you have no right to deny me my voice. To do so makes you lower than any label you can brand me with.

[giantw]

To the Great Emperor Wolf, may the Gods see fit to bestow him the fortitude and stamina to spew venom at the contributors of this site.

I think I've proved my point admirably well. Your dissection of my post is hardly a dissection, as you just reiterate the same crap from your previous posts. I owe you no statistical evidence, just like no author on this site needs to alter thier stories to suit your particular whims.

Critics such as yourself need to be stood up to, just like bullies. I love how after your vicious post to Soccerstud, you are playing the victim and decrying "character assasination." That's pathetic. I have and will continue to speak up every time I see one of you would-be critics belch out a heap of useless and insulting criticsm in response to a story that does not meet with your imperial approval.

I will be watching your posts carefully. For every story you disparage, you can bet I'll be there to cry foul. Your right is to offer "critiques". My right is to call you out on your bullshit each and every time.

For the rest of you that are following along, please don't be like this asshole, and be kind and respectful to the contributors of this site. That is the only way to encourage members to contribute more. And if you see some baseless, hurtful criticism like that of Emperor Wolf, call him out on it. It's the only way to make bullies feel unwelcome. Thank you.

[Excelsior]

In regards to the chatter between giantw and wolfotehmoon.....

FIGHT!!!!! FIGHT!!!!! FIGHT!!!!!

[Jaypat]

As a contributor to the site, I would just like to put in my two cents. First off: you both make some really good points.

Second: as a contributor to this site, I don?t mind constructive criticism, even though it might seem like it from my earlier post in this thread. (I?d already abandoned using ?Fuck Yeah!? for pretty much the reasons listed. It has been way over used.)

Third: constructive criticism is an art. And, Wolf, I?m afraid you need some practice. Artists are notoriously sensitive and take offense easily. A good rule of thumb when constructively criticizing is to list two things you liked in a story for every one thing you didn?t. That will effectively cushion the blow and make the writer much more open to your suggestions. And always be sincere. Don?t just make up two things you liked, actually find elements in the story that you think have genuine merit.

I?m gong to go on to say that I think there is a definite place on this board for constructive criticism. I think we?ve all seen writers who have the potential to be so much better and yet take the lazy way out. But be careful. Some writers are not interested in any criticism, constructive or otherwise. And Giant is right. This is not their job. They have no obligation to improve, and many of them are not interested in improving. Their attitude is pretty much ?This is what I write. If you like it, great. If not, don?t read it.? If you push these guys they will disappear. And I don?t think anyone wants to drive anyone else away.

So, my advice to you is to put out feelers to see how constructive criticism might be received. If the author isn?t interested then walk away, let it drop. You might also try looking at past threads to see how the author reacted to criticism in the past.

And fourth and final: if you trash one of my stories I will hunt you down and kill you.

[wolfotehmoon]

@Giant
All I have to say is that anyone who would come to a debate with statistical evidence deserves to have their words torn apart. Your obvious superiority complex blinds you to the truth that every single attack you've thrown at me has been parried successfully, with the only things left trivial characterizations that are, at best, untrue. In short: you're all bark, and no quantitative bite. You tell me to leave, but I ask you to stay: I'm ready for any meaningless attack you throw at me. (Woooh, internet toughguy :P The point still stands x3)

@Jay and everyone willing to listen

I do admit that HOW I've said some things were insensitive, and I believe I've apologized for that. I'll say it again, though: I'm sorry. However, I don't believe I've spoken out of turn in regards to my ideas. Maybe the two-for-one technique has some merit, and I'll try that, but the criticism I have for someone's work still stands. Let me repeat that: I don't have a problem with anyone on here from the outset of our relationship; I will speak up when I don't agree with someone's ideas.

Personally, I'd like to see a part of the site specifically for rough drafts and the like. Or, a part specifically for constructive criticism. My main fear was that the site would be filled with badly-written cut-and-paste stories. Is that really any better than the opposite end of the spectrum? I feel that the writers who can take criticism instead of expecting instant pats on the back tend to be better. I'm not trying to drive anyone away, but...

But yes, I hope the mods are reading this: is there any chance we could get a rough draft/constructive criticism subforum in the stories section?

PS: Jay, you're fine, your work speaks for itself. And if, by chance, you DO find a need to hunt me down, I'll be sure to have a group of orphans and a batch of growth serum on call. ;3

[giantw]

You've convinced me to offer you some constructive criticism on your latest "contribution" in the stories section. I hope you find it helpful. And feel free to let me know what you think, since you sound like one of those guys that only feels vindicated if they get the last word in...even if it is meaningless.

[hollow]

Now back on topic, again.

I also think "haha" is a strange phrasing of a chuckle/laugh/whatever. The English language should definitely construct a better phrasing for that so that it doesn't read so awkwardly.

I'll march up to the people writing the next edition of Merriam-Webster's Dictionary and demand that they do so.

[Yachirobi]

1. Don't feed the trolls...block them!

2. Haha is really, really, REALLY lame and I thank you, Lover Boy, for pointing that out bluntly but not rudely. However, I do enjoy a good Ha ha! every now and then because, you see, I am secretly a character from Speed Raced and I talk really, really fast in incredibly long sentences for no reason! HA HA!

I also move in limited animation! HA HA! </end bad joke>