Tone down or bulk up?

[Dreamforge]

Hello. Just a minor musing...

I'm trying for a toned, well defined, slender graceful look. Preferably with a six pack as soon as humanly possible. Will it be better for me to trim the fat down first or should I bulk up a bit beforehand? I'm current 5'8 with 143 pounds at 19% bodyfat. Thanks a bunch ?_?

[Stoneman]

Bulk up, then it will be easier to trim down. That's how it goes. :-)

[inflated]

Work on strengthening your core muscles, and your bodyfat percentage should start going down. Diet is very important---lean meats, fresh fish, fresh vegetables, avoid too much sugars, starches etc. A mediterranean diet is the best diet for lean muscle mass.

[wolfotehmoon]

BULK THEN BULK.

There's a picture that goes with this but I can't find it :x

[DaBigGuy1]

"You have to add the clay before you can mold the statue...."

Bulk first, then do the cutting to show the new muscle underneath....

Ron III----III

[GymRat7425]

How long do you suggest a bulk cycle should last?

[Dreamforge]

Thanks for the advice guys. I'm making some slight progress and I'm really hoping this continues. I'm hoping to get abs by the end of November (hoping really hard) but my fat ratio is still at 19% (down from 23% in August). I'm wondering what percentage should I target, though.

[Seraph]

There isnt much point to bulking if you want to tone and define. The idea behind bulking up is to feed the body whilst training hard in order to grow larger muscles. If you want slim, toned and graceful you would be better sticking to a clean diet of high protein and low carb. Include plenty of aerobic training in your work out.

[outkast]

The only way to do it is by trial and error you don't want to bulk up too much but when you do you want to make sure that its muscle and definition that you bulk up with and not fat content!!

[Lucas88]

So what's the status? You first posted 7 months ago. Did you go the bulk and cut route or the diet and tone route?

[bigbob111]

most people already have the appropriate muscles aready developed, but hidden under a layer of fat. losing weight will bring the ab ridges to the surface better than bulking. But generally, if you start any heavy excercise routine, you will gain muslce and lose fat at a similar rate.

[cccatl]

Originally Posted by Dreamforge

Hello. Just a minor musing...

I'm trying for a toned, well defined, slender graceful look. Preferably with a six pack as soon as humanly possible. Will it be better for me to trim the fat down first or should I bulk up a bit beforehand? I'm current 5'8 with 143 pounds at 19% bodyfat. Thanks a bunch ?_?

I completely disagree with everyone here.

If you want a "slender graceful look" then don't bulk up at all. Slender graceful to me is like dancer type. You should be able to achieve that physique without ever having to bulk then diet.

[FuzzyKB]

Originally Posted by Dreamforge

Hello. Just a minor musing...

I'm trying for a toned, well defined, slender graceful look. Preferably with a six pack as soon as humanly possible. Will it be better for me to trim the fat down first or should I bulk up a bit beforehand? I'm current 5'8 with 143 pounds at 19% bodyfat. Thanks a bunch ?_?

[COLOR="RoyalBlue"]

There are many different approaches to bodybuilding. Back in the 1970's the main system used was bulk then cut then bulk again. People may put it down, but this system worked and it worked well enough to make some really great bodybuilders of decades ago without breaking the bank.

My Nephew started out at 125 pounds at age 18. Three years later right now at the end of a cutting cycle he is about 180. His last bulking cycle ended with him at 216. The weight on the body equals higher weight on the bar and in his case has been the best method to build the muscle mass. The next bulking cycle may take him to 225. In the end we are guessing that at 5'5" tall he will probably compete at about 205 when he is ready for competition. I have seen very few who were successful without adding the weight to increase the lifting strength and hence muscle mass. [/COLOR]

[Dreamforge]

Originally Posted by Lucas88

So what's the status? You first posted 7 months ago. Did you go the bulk and cut route or the diet and tone route?

Sigh. Things have been largely uneventful. I seem to have the uncanny ability to not change much whatever I try to do and it's a constant source of frustration. I've moved out of my old job and my old home though and while I seem to be forced to eat unhealthily more often than not these days (I live in an area that would be perfect as a fast food safari) I did have the money to buy myself a humble weight set though (thirty pounds as of now - I'm buying it piecemeal) so I'm once again going at it, if for the umpteenth time. Hopefully, I won't have to plan to move to another country/get depressed/change careers this time around, but one could only hope.

Personally, I've been rethinking "slender and graceful" and mulling over going for a more "underwear model" build since it's beginning to seem like my chances for either is pretty much the same.

You can only go through life being a nerdy minor player for so long before you start wondering how life might be like if you were a bit more of an alpha. I wonder about it and sulk although, admittedly, I could be doing something more about it.

Oh well. I'm good for a chat if anyone's interested in my latest attempt to get fit.

[helliot]

Getting fit is a lifestyle change. I know temptation is very hard to overcome, but you just have to commit to change and stick to it. Buy healthy food and keep your fridge stocked. When you are tempted by fast food, remind yourself that you already have food at home that is paid for and healthier. If you are out a lot, pre-pack your meals. Never leave your nutrition to chance ("I'm leaving the house for 8 hours. I'll figure it out later."). If you know there's a healthy place to eat near work or where you'll be, great. Otherwise, pack it.

Read labels and nutrition info. You might be surprised. A friend and I recently had dinner at Applebee's. I had a steak and he had chicken. My meal: 550 calories. His meal: 1850 calories. Learn basics of which fats are good fats and which are bad fats, which carbs are simple carbs and which are complex carbs. Identify convenient sources of protein. Decide what a good macro nutrient breakdown is for your body and goals and plan around it. Make simple switches: replace white bread with whole grain, white rice with brown or wild, vegetable oil with canola oil.

Exercise has to be consistent. A single workout never did anybody any good. Running five days a week and taking a month off isn't going to help. Develop a plan and stick to it.

Craigslist is an excellent source of equipment. I got a squad rack, bench, cable system, and 400 pounds of weights for $140. I got the 95-pound Powerblocks system with stand for half of retail. If you're working out in your living room or bedroom, look for compact dumbbells, a swiss ball (~$25 retail), and maybe look into an elastic system (I've never used them but they look effective for compact spaces).

[Lucas88]

Originally Posted by helliot

Getting fit is a lifestyle change. I know temptation is very hard to overcome, but you just have to commit to change and stick to it. Buy healthy food and keep your fridge stocked. When you are tempted by fast food, remind yourself that you already have food at home that is paid for and healthier. If you are out a lot, pre-pack your meals. Never leave your nutrition to chance ("I'm leaving the house for 8 hours. I'll figure it out later."). If you know there's a healthy place to eat near work or where you'll be, great. Otherwise, pack it.

Read labels and nutrition info. You might be surprised. A friend and I recently had dinner at Applebee's. I had a steak and he had chicken. My meal: 550 calories. His meal: 1850 calories. Learn basics of which fats are good fats and which are bad fats, which carbs are simple carbs and which are complex carbs. Identify convenient sources of protein. Decide what a good macro nutrient breakdown is for your body and goals and plan around it. Make simple switches: replace white bread with whole grain, white rice with brown or wild, vegetable oil with canola oil.

Exercise has to be consistent. A single workout never did anybody any good. Running five days a week and taking a month off isn't going to help. Develop a plan and stick to it.

Craigslist is an excellent source of equipment. I got a squad rack, bench, cable system, and 400 pounds of weights for $140. I got the 95-pound Powerblocks system with stand for half of retail. If you're working out in your living room or bedroom, look for compact dumbbells, a swiss ball (~$25 retail), and maybe look into an elastic system (I've never used them but they look effective for compact spaces).

What he said: it's a life style change. Typically, it's not going to happen all at once...it's a lifestyle change and we humans tend not to like change, especially dramatic ones. Unless you're one of those few that can do it all at once, start making little changes and turning them into habit. I don't know what your lifestyle is now, but take a look at it and see where you can be more physical in your day-to-day activities...instead of taking elevators start taking stairs...start walking places instead of driving where you can...start doing push-ups, sit-ups and squats at the same time every day (you don't need weights to do them and you get in the habit of exercising).

Start looking at your diet and focus on one meal a day that you're going to eat healthy and get in the habit...then move to the next meal. Start setting small, healthy goals for yourself...they're easier to achieve and you won't believe the boost your ego gets when you start adding up the little accomplishments.

It's taken you a life time to get where you are now. You can't change it overnight and you'll only frustrate yourself if you try. But if you start making small changes and sticking with them and adding a new change every week or every month (depending on what the change is) you'll be surprised at the progress in 6 months to a year.

[nnnrg]

After dealing with an obnoxious and stealthy sleep breathing disorder (not QUITE apnea) I finally find myself with enough energy to work out again after a couple decades away from the weights. I've discovered two things. First, a trainer is essential for anyone starting to make changes when their body ignores their desires. My personal torturer is doing a maximal-confuse-the-hell process with circuit training, with the idea being getting my fitness which had become horrid, up to a stable state. I've learned that I need to do daily cardio (not excessive, just enough to help reverse the insulin resistance) and get enough sleep (but not too much.) I'm going to need to make dietary adjustments as well, which is a bit harder to pull off due to the insulin resistance.

It's slightly expensive but it's definitely worth it for me at least. A second set of professionally trained eyes going over my workout and diet does a lot.
The

[angelightmusic]

one word. p90x. Look it up, if you haven't already heard of it. I only did it for 30 days then got lazy, but in 30 days i went from barely seeing abs, to almost a full 6 pack, and packed a little bit of muscle. do it.

[FuzzyKB]

Originally Posted by Dreamforge

Hello. Just a minor musing...

I'm trying for a toned, well defined, slender graceful look. Preferably with a six pack as soon as humanly possible. Will it be better for me to trim the fat down first or should I bulk up a bit beforehand? I'm current 5'8 with 143 pounds at 19% bodyfat. Thanks a bunch ?_?

[COLOR="LightBlue"]
I have waited a little to contemplate this one because I wanted my answer to have some research time.

The first thing is that you did not mention your frame size. There is substantial difference in what you would do between small, medium and large frames for your height.

You've got some interesting things going here by implication. You are not presently overweight in any manner of speaking at your height and yet your bodyweight fat number is slightly higher than average.

At 19% you are in theory not far from some cuts right now. Your implications and stats kind of force me to make some assumptions and that will be the best that I can do here.

Assuming that you have a small frame which would allow for a higher percentage of body fat and a heavier padding of it in the torso, is what I will have to assume here.

Like it or not my personal recommendation would be to initially add about 25 pounds of muscle mass which will take you about 18 months if you are an average gainer. The idea here would be to allow your fat number to go no higher than 25-27%. You will need more fat to convert to glycogen to burn as fuel for your workouts. This should place you in the ballpark of about 170 pounds. That is a rough estimate. Then switch your training over to a cutting cycle. This will bring you back down to the 155-158 area in weight and that should if you do it right give you both a decent fat percentage and a decent bodyweight. Remember that for decent health long term that you do not want to get down to the fat levels of a competitive bodybuilder. Most competitive bodybuilders do not remain at the extremely low competitive levels for long. You can remain healthy with a body fat level of about 10-12% showing cuts as you would like and still retaining enough fat for insulation purposes. /COLOR]

[BIGJOEY]

I read your post and am a bit suprised that your 19% bf at 5' 8 143 lbs. You didn't state how this nukber was determinined. At 143 lbs you should have abs unless your diet is total crap. Also you didn't state your age , if your lifting, and how your eating. If your body fat is 19% then it's eviedent that your eating habits are very poor and need to be corrected before any bulk is considered. The following things need to be considered.

number of meals a day is how one will start their metabolic cycle to its correct level. Your training must reflect your nutrition.

While some information poasted here does show research it also shows a lack of understanding of how the body works. Your current 19% body fat number is not an acceptable number and pushing it higher will not solve the issue. You failed to state if you played any sports which would also give a idea as to body structure. While body structure is important its not the total issue in solving your proble. if you can post what you eat for 1 average day that will explain a lot and i don't mean dress it up but what you actually eat.

Also put your age and how your body fat was determined and any sports you played at all. once this if avaiable then i can give you a more detailed answer.

[Dreamforge]

Originally Posted by FuzzyKB

[COLOR="LightBlue"]
I have waited a little to contemplate this one because I wanted my answer to have some research time.

The first thing is that you did not mention your frame size. There is substantial difference in what you would do between small, medium and large frames for your height.

You've got some interesting things going here by implication. You are not presently overweight in any manner of speaking at your height and yet your bodyweight fat number is slightly higher than average.

At 19% you are in theory not far from some cuts right now. Your implications and stats kind of force me to make some assumptions and that will be the best that I can do here.

Assuming that you have a small frame which would allow for a higher percentage of body fat and a heavier padding of it in the torso, is what I will have to assume here.

Like it or not my personal recommendation would be to initially add about 25 pounds of muscle mass which will take you about 18 months if you are an average gainer. The idea here would be to allow your fat number to go no higher than 25-27%. You will need more fat to convert to glycogen to burn as fuel for your workouts. This should place you in the ballpark of about 170 pounds. That is a rough estimate. Then switch your training over to a cutting cycle. This will bring you back down to the 155-158 area in weight and that should if you do it right give you both a decent fat percentage and a decent bodyweight. Remember that for decent health long term that you do not want to get down to the fat levels of a competitive bodybuilder. Most competitive bodybuilders do not remain at the extremely low competitive levels for long. You can remain healthy with a body fat level of about 10-12% showing cuts as you would like and still retaining enough fat for insulation purposes. /COLOR]

This is a very detailed reply. Thank you very much.
Yes, I do have a small frame, a fact that I resent quite a bit.

[Dreamforge]

Originally Posted by BIGJOEY

I read your post and am a bit suprised that your 19% bf at 5' 8 143 lbs. You didn't state how this nukber was determinined. At 143 lbs you should have abs unless your diet is total crap. Also you didn't state your age , if your lifting, and how your eating. If your body fat is 19% then it's eviedent that your eating habits are very poor and need to be corrected before any bulk is considered. The following things need to be considered.

number of meals a day is how one will start their metabolic cycle to its correct level. Your training must reflect your nutrition.

While some information poasted here does show research it also shows a lack of understanding of how the body works. Your current 19% body fat number is not an acceptable number and pushing it higher will not solve the issue. You failed to state if you played any sports which would also give a idea as to body structure. While body structure is important its not the total issue in solving your proble. if you can post what you eat for 1 average day that will explain a lot and i don't mean dress it up but what you actually eat.

Also put your age and how your body fat was determined and any sports you played at all. once this if avaiable then i can give you a more detailed answer.

Well, I'm currently 26 years old. My body fat percentage may have risen recently although I have gotten lighter since I was hospitalized with dengue fever a month back. As a matter of policy, I suck at sports so all I've had in recent history is working out and I haven't done that in about half a year since I moved into a job that promptly mangled up my time, energy, eating
habits and gymming money. I've recently quit though and am planning three months of intensive training back in my hometown, the particulars of which are still rather shady.

All I know is that I have three months to burn without having to worry about job-related stuff. What I'll be doing then fitness-wise is still up to conjecture.

[FuzzyKB]

Originally Posted by Dreamforge

This is a very detailed reply. Thank you very much.
Yes, I do have a small frame, a fact that I resent quite a bit.

[COLOR="Wheat"]
Dear Dream,
At least we now have a starting point.
The first thing is we need to backtrack a wee bit. Do not be resentful of your small frame at all. A small frame is not the problem in and of itself and in some ways a small framed person can look a great deal larger than they are with a smaller muscle size. Small frame is different than the muscle classifications of ecto, endo, and mesomorph. A small framed person can without doubt be a mesomorph and build a great deal of muscle. Negative attitude and self doubt definitely works against you in the case of physique development and improvement.

The first thing you need to think about with yourself is that no two people are exactly alike. A diet and exercise program that works like gangbusters for one person will be a total failure in a different person.

The 19% body fat that you have in and of itself is not the main problem. Based on the new information that we now have you are not as bad off as you think you are. During the first phase as I said do not worry too much unless you get over 25-27%.

Based on everything you have stated what we have is a fellow who via lack of exercise has very low muscle mass. If you were for example at 10% body fat which is still a healthy average your body weight might be in the area of about 130 pounds instead of 143.

Now, not based on muscle, but instead on body fat percentage you can go as high as about 150 pounds with little danger.

To make this work you are definitely going to have to do a heavy re-examination of your diet. There are things that you absolutely positively need to remove from your diet because they work against you. The first is high-fructose corn syrup. Inside the US it is being labeled also as "corn sugar" either way it plays with insulin levels in an unhealthy way. You can have regular sugar in moderation. Just avoid HFCS or CS with a passion and to the best of your ability. The next thing you want to avoid are products containing Soy with the single exception being Soy based Lecithin. Though not yet conclusive some research is suggesting that Soy has an adverse effect on testosterone production and utilization. If you start reading labels you will be shocked at how much HFCS and Soy there are in places that in reality have zero need for it. Salt can also be an enemy. Learn to use salt as a tool rather than as a flavor enhancer. Salt controls fluid retention and on occasion it can be a benefit and on others you want to get rid of fluid not retain it.

Right now I have to get a car washed....I will be back later tonight and give you a great deal more information and help. [/COLOR]

[FuzzyKB]

[COLOR="Wheat"]
Part 2

When you eat take an actual look at what it is that you're putting in your mouth. If you must eat fast food avoid the very worst culprits and do your best to look for things on a menu that will provide you with a reasonable calorie intake, while at the same time bringing in the right quantities of GOOD carbohydrates and protein.

Surprisingly Tuna Salad is very healthy and is a mainstay in bodybuilding because the protein is multi sourced from both the tuna and the eggs used in it's preparation. If you have a particular recipe you follow fine, but remember that most tuna salad recipes do not have a bodybuilder in mind. The first and main change is to double or triple the quantity of tuna depending on how much you can tolerate. You need to get the protein level up as far as possible.

Next look at your carbs. Sugars in things such as pastry or sweets are a form of carbs, but, these are not good ones because they provide no real benefits. The things that you would want as carbs would in level of importance be things first such as spinach or broccoli, second in line would be cauliflower, with carrots at the bottom of the pile because of the excess sugar.

Potato in any form is a treat and not to be eaten as a regular dietary thing. One of the things that surprisingly will make a difference is a diabetic diet guide. These guides will make a difference because it will allow you to rank carbs in order of sugar levels and benefits by content.

The old rule used to be beef. The thoughts on that one have changed somewhat. In the U.S. most of the beef purchased is "lot fed". Lot fed beef is not healthy. It contains higher quantities of fat than range fed, and the science community is now looking at the diet with regards to several meat contamination issues. You are better off using fish or poultry even though there are problems with that too. If you can afford it the best thing right now is actually Buffalo or Beefalo which is a cross. It is a red meat but the genetics are different and the protein content is actually higher and the health benefits are there because neither Buffalo or Beefalo are lot fed in the traditional ways.

Supplementation depends on you.

Based on what information I now have you are probably going to need BCAA and Glutamine. These are helpful supplements in that they really cut back on the soreness the next day enabling you to push harder with the weight and suffer a great deal less.

Pre-workouts are a mixed bag. There are a ton of different ones out there. The best one is the best one for you. They are high in caffein and this gives some people problems on at times multiple levels.

Right after your workout you need to find a quick liquid carb to put some sugar back in that is not harmful. The best is Apple Juice that is unsweetened and not from concentrate. If you can get it cheaply, Martinelli's is a good one. It comes in small individual serving bottles and works well. Next on the list if you can't get that is a non sweetened juice but from concentrate.

After your workout is the time to do your other supplements such as Muscle Milk, Cyto Gainer or the equivalents.

Creatine Monohydrate taken about 30 minutes before your workout is dose sensitive to really do some good. Dosage is body weight dependent and the suggested guidelines on packaging are as a rule not effective.

Use Yoghurt because the supplements themselves can have a negative impact on digestion.

Carefully read the labels of all supplements and be aware that some supplements create benefits that really are not benefits at all, but are the illusions of benefits. This to me tends to be the case with the pre-workouts, but, if they help psychologically, then there can be enough positives to be of benefit particularly on your difficult body parts.

Now, in the sport of bodybuilding every person has their headache body part or parts. Maybe it is calves for one guy, or pecs for another, or shoulders for a third. You may have parts that grow easily as well responding very easily to exercise.

Workout time. . . . write more later. . . . .

There are some pill form supplements that need to be taken before bed. [/COLOR]