Massium 2.0 - Part 4

[Corwin]

Originally Posted by sexiscriptor

Nobody feels female growth should replace male growth on this site--that is madness even in my acknowledging! It already has a home elsewhere.

The history of this thread shows the problem with this argument. On March 13, BB-61 argued that a story is OK if "is principally centered on male muscle growth." The word principally means, "First, highest, or foremost in importance, rank, worth, or degree; chief."

Later that day, Roodinverse writes: "There may be SOME female muscle growth as well, and as long as it doesn't play a major part in the story" No longer does male growth need to be predominant, but a slightly lesser degree of being a "major" part of the story.

One day later, Sanitarium87Q writes: "The site is for male muscle growth, but why not having female muscle growth coexisting in one story?" No longer need it be "principally" male oriented -- now they simply must "coexist".

On the 18th, Kyrosan goes back to the first idea -- "as long as the male muscle growth is predominant." Predominant means, "Having greatest ascendancy, importance, influence, authority, or force."

This is shortlived. Yesterday, XYGGURAT relates gender to an "extraneous" characteristic. "...who includes elements beyond male muscle growth in their stories. Extraneous elements are what make stories unique." Extraneous means "1 Not constituting a vital element or part.
2 Inessential or unrelated to the topic or matter at hand; irrelevant." Suddenly, the stated purpose of these forums "male muscle growth" is inessential or unrelated to the topic of the posts made here. The "male" in "male muscle growth" has been removed entirely, discarded as not being vital.

The posters in favor of expanding the purpose of this forum have done so with rationalizations. They have adopted a slippery slope argument that ranged from story "predominantly" about male muscle growth to being stories that "coexist" with any-gender muscle growth to arguing that gender is merely an extraneous detail. The site and forums clearly say that it is "male muscle growth". That is definitional -- a statement conveying fundamental character of this site. To claim that "nobody" is saying that belies what has been said here.

Originally Posted by sexiscriptor

Nevertheless, female growth can, if a writer so desires, visit our site, as might a tourist.

"Can" and "should" are different. Beyond the rationalizations, there have been deliberatte misrepresentations of what I have said. I have never that heterosexual sex should not be allowed here. I have never said that female muscle growth is offensive. Yet, those arguing to change the fundamental nature of the site have used those very words and arguments against the position that this site is really for "male muscle growth" only. Unable to make a valid argument as to why it should be allowed, as opposed to "can be allowed", they have adopted these superfluous arguments and rhetoric.

Originally Posted by sexiscriptor

Male growth is clearly grounded here on our site;

This is what the fight comes down to. People come to this site for this purpose. There is a strong community of people here. They came for the purpose of "male muscle growth." The reason it has remained grounded is that we have not, as a rule, deviated beyond that purpose. No one has espoused a reason to permit that deviation except as a rationalization of their own desires. Even then, they have gone from permitting very little deviation to dismissing the salient feature all together.

As has been pointed out by others, when other sites have begun to deviate from their stated purpose, they have lost their character altogether. That is why I have argued and will continue to argue that we should not permit at all "female muscle growth" on a site whose sole raison d'etre is "male muscle growth."

[Sanitarium87Q]

Im sorry but im tired of being formal and nice

you people dont have enough to think about if this is all that concerns you. there is so much analysis of every damn thing someone says. the topic needs to end

the poor author of this story, i can only imagine how he feels.

seriously, find something else to concern yourself with, because i want to see another chapter of this story

[Mad Dog]

Honestly. Isn't this why we have instant messengers? Everyone that still wants to go to blows over this can do it out of sight from everyone else.

[Kyrosan]

Ok, Corwin, pull your head out of your butt! Xyggurat never said that gender was unimportant in the way you claimed. He said that extraneous ideas "beyond male muscle growth" are what make the stories unique. Note that he (from my understanding of his post) implied that male muscle growth would be in the forefront.
It is time that this very dead argument be dropped. The arguments are just circling and getting nowhere. If someone doesn't like the content of a story there is a simple solution. DO NOT READ IT!

[BB-61]

Gee, I was hoping that if I stopped responding to Corwin, he'd shut up on his own.

I guess I underestimated him.

[CanadianGordon]

This is the first time I've had such a desire to knock heads together!

HOLY CRAP!

ENOUGH!

Write more bloody stories!

END THIS DISCUSSION!

Not only am I livid at how long this damned discussion has gone on, I think there are a number of us here who are acting childish and immature.

WHERE ON THE SITE, and I ask, where on the site does it say WHAT IS ALLOWED and WHAT ISN'T?

Can we make that more clear? That was stories with certain themes can be avoided and the writer can be directed there in the future.

No More!

You wouldn't like me when I'm angry....

[Callandor54]

I've followed along for several days now and seen much arguing, but no efforts at reaching a resolution to this besides the occasional "let's all drop this already."

It seems to me that the answer to all of this is relatively simple (and yes, after writing this I'm going to suggest it to the owner of the site): add some flags of categorization to the titles of postings. Something akin to what the CYOC site does. Ex: (G) - Gay themed, (S) - Straight themed

I think most of the animosity here is derived from expecting one thing, and finding another, and wanting to introduce content not frequently seen. A vast majority of the stories here are gay-themed, and it's become something of an expectation that almost any and everything posted here will fit a given theme. Someone who's not really into the eventual results of a story read along, then become disappointed when an element that sort of kills their excitement is introduced.

It's all about managing expectations.

Failing the site owner's interest or ability to add letters and a matching categorization system (it might be an easy thing, or it might be horribly complicated, or maybe undesirable entirely), authors could voluntarily add the sometimes seen notice that "this story involves ____."

Much as I have a general distaste toward what may be seen as "legalese" or whatever, it would certainly serve well for helping to steer someone toward the type of material they're looking for.

And NO, I don't want to spark another round of what the entire site is aimed at and dedicated to, etc. Male Muscle Growth is the name in the logo, but The Evolution Forum is the title. As more members join and the site expands, different tastes will be introduced - consider it growing pains. Let's stick to the core purpose - the male muscle growth - but find ways to accommodate the various flavors that may be added to cater to individual tastes. A story only about a guy growing is the base; sex, muscle worship, etc. are all flavoring aspects.

Summary: we've all found a playground to share a common interest, so let's find ways to play nice instead of arguing, hm?

[Corwin]

Originally Posted by Callandor54

I think most of the animosity here is derived from expecting one thing, and finding another, and wanting to introduce content not frequently seen.

The content is not frequently seen because it is not the purpose of the group. It is not about gay verses straight. It is a fundamental question of whether this group is male muscle growth, as everyone expects, or whether it is something else.

Originally Posted by Callandor54

It's all about managing expectations.

No one has disputed that the expectations of everyone here is male muscle growth. Historically, female muscle growth has been frowned upon, and everyone respected that. Whenever the topic was raised, there has been dissent. People have respected the wishes and expectations of participants here and not tried to force a change of expectations of what this group is about.

What has changed is that in this argument is that people are trying to rationalize such a change. They are not respecting that the site is about "male muscle growth". They raise strawman arguments about sexual orientation or taking offense. They make rationalizations about how such a change could happen without explaining why it should happen. And, they ignore other groups members who argue against such a change.

There is a harm to the participants of this group to try to change both the groups purpose and countermand the long-standing expectations of the members of the group.

Stopping the argument is easy -- respect that this group is about MALE muscle growth.

If people want a group or forum that is something else, go to yahoo and create it or build another site. It ain't hard. Arguing about changing the expectations of users here is much harder than actually creating a suitable venue where the expectations are set from the beginning.

The only guarantee is that if the topic of female muscle growth comes up, there will be dissent. If people don't want dissent, don't bring it up. When it gets brought up, as it has been several times in the history of this site, there is an argument. (and, as I've posted, it seems like the same one or two people are the ones who always bring it up)

Originally Posted by Callandor54

Summary: we've all found a playground to share a common interest, so let's find ways to play nice instead of arguing, hm?

and that common interest is male muscle growth.

[Callandor54]

I'm trying to suggest possibilities to satisfy everyone and make this a better resource for all involved. While I don't personally find stories involving female muscle growth to be even remotely interesting, I'm willing to play devil's advocate here.

Not everyone on this site finds unbelievably huge muscle growth stories interesting, nor stories about youths, or hairy guys, or smooth, or that do or don't have inhuman growth to be interesting. It's all just different flavor on the same subject.

And while you're probably going to argue that female growth isn't flavoring and is instead a drastic shift in course, let me point out that the web address is www.musclegrowth.org (note the lack of the word Male or even an extra letter M) and that the title of the pages all read "The Evolution Forum" - the only place that the word "male" is specifically shown is in the graphic logo and in the subsection of the page - Male Muscle Growth. Nowhere does it say, "exclusively male muscle growth"

While I firmly believe that the subject matter should stay primarily male muscle growth for the entire site, I do not see anything anywhere that prohibits or dissuades female growth - excepting for members arguing in threads like these. In fact, analyzing the very structure of the site (exempting the logo picture) strongly suggests that there should be a separate section for Female Muscle Growth with it's own stories, pictures, tv, web, real life, and continuous headers - just like there's a section for Community, Bodybuilding, and Off-Topic. Given discussions like these, probably a section for "both genders" would need to exist as well.

We're all participants or visitors to something that is owned by someone else. Until and unless that owner steps in and removes content or explicitly prohibits a type of material, then as long as it's legal and won't result in external authorities shutting down the site or arresting and investigating participants, it's at the discretion of the contributing member what they wish to contribute - provided they actually have the minimum standard for where they're posting -- which is a story about male muscle growth. If it happens to include some woman growing larger as well to make the story believable to the reader, then that's at the discretion of the contributor. I could understand this argument if there were a story here about a woman outgrowing a man and dominating him, but I've seen nothing of the sort, and read nothing indicating any interest in such a thing. Quite the contrary, there's been mention of an entire site promoting that subject.

Whether you like their work or not is a matter of your own taste, and I've suggested ways to help you avoid works that you will not be interested in. Instead, the response was more "I want what I want and only what I want." I don't think that's the right approach. I wouldn't want someone telling me what I should or shouldn't be allowed to post and do not feel entitled to do the same to someone else.

I've also checked, and www.onlymalemusclegrowth.org , .net, AND .com are all available. To put your own position back to you - feel free to start up any of those if you wish to dictate to others what they can or cannot post. It aint hard.

Personally, I'd be happy to work with the site owner to implement a better way to categorize contributions - then I could more easily know which sections will appeal to me and which sections to avoid. Then it would be much easier for any member to say, "oh, this belongs in the "both genders grow" section. let's move it over here" or "this is missing a Female Growth Too flag" instead of insisting that it doesn't belong at all.

[sexiscriptor]

To Corwin and everyone else as well; you are all taking this much to seriously.

We're all getting much too defensive and as a result many of us aren't realizing that the vast majority of us are in agreement.

For example, in his "defense" to what it seems he perceived as an "attack" against him on my part, Corwin vivisects the very words and sentences of myself and other forum members as though this were an appelate court performing judicial review. C'mon, Scalia, it isn't that bad. Nor is it that grave.

I think we all need to lie ourselves back, lay our confirmation biases and other arms and armors aside, and relax for a moment. Folks, the fact is--and I have said this before--we're waging an imaginary war over smut. And not even over the smut itself--but incidental elements.

These elements result from the personal preferences of the writer--and as such will never and can never overthrow the main thrust of the forum.

Simply because some woman in some story grows, too, or is altered to take some super huge guys cock or is his wife or girlfriend or whatever the hell the plot line does not take away from the male's growth: he still effing grew. "Sharing" is not now nor has it ever been the same as "stealing." Those are two different words that even Chief Justice Corwin can't take apart any other way: one is mutual, at best; the other is usurpation.

That's a fun word; let's use that.

As I said--Corwin even quoted me and argued--Nobody intends, desires, or expects female growth to usurp this forum; male growth has always been and would still be the primary focus.

No wait, I should take that back--lest I be charged with perjury. Afterall, not even every story on this forum focuses on male muscle GROWTH; there are those that focus on muscle WORSHIP--even those that feature negligible to no muscle growth at all! Some of those instead emphasize overal size growth. Then there are the stories that do have a good deal of muscle growth but also have other, incidental growth.

Hmm...I smell a technicality, and since we're all up'on's over highly analytical, technical definitions of things (ahem), I shall continue what has already been started by those before me: those who argue "male muscle growth" excludes all things extraneous:

Nothing in the definitions of "dimensions" or "hair" or "bone" or "cock" or "density" or "sexual orientation" says anything about muscle. Not a one of them--not in any scientific or verbal sense--is muscle; so, it only follows, neither does any specific growth or change thereof count as muscle growth. If we're going to be so technical and literal about "male muscle growth--ONLY" a great many stories, having such incidental but, as we have concluded, WHOLLY EXTRANEOUS elements, need be immediately stricken from the archives. Among the writers whose works are thus disqualified from our pages are Muscl4life, Massiveboy, Max Mann, Absman420, FanTCMan, O'Melissokomos, and even Corwin himself.

Uh oh. Shit, there goes our smut! But what if I like cocks getting bigger or dudes getting huger and muscles getting worshipped'er?! Well, these incidental elements are none of them qualified to be in our forum, at least following the literal logic previously exercised.

How does this "purge" relate back to female muscle growth? If we are to allow other incidental elements--as would we need to preserve the character not to mention vast majority of our archives--then incidental female growth should be tolerated as well.

"O tempores, O Morales!" "The center will not hold!" How on earth are you ever going to get off again? (Since that--getting off or at least hard--is the purpose of smut, that should be the factor most assessed.)

This isn't a college course folks: do as we do all "offending" incedental elements: skim over, by, past. None of you will be tested on any of this, so it's ok if you "miss" or "forget" something.

The purpose of this site is not male muscle growth; it is providing a means by which to get off or hard. It accomplishes that by supplying our demand for such with things that turn us on: here by catering to a certain vein of smut--in many cases, it's male muscle growth.

Not everyone shares the same turn-ons yet the only means by which we can ever achieve broad satisfaction is diversity--in pleasing everyone, everyone must be represented.

I myself am, in addition to being a muscle lover, a macrophile (the two do sort of go together, having similar themes of dominance, size, power, et cetera). If I'm reading some story by Muscl4life, I will most likely find something "offending" my sense of proportional growth (that the dude still looks more or less human even at 50ft tall and super muscular): as he often specifies--for he is a honest writer, who writes from himself (he actually uses the word "for" where I use "from," but I feel it is no less true to my point)--something that is a part of what he--and probably his fans--enjoys: now the guy's 'head looks puny compared to his shoulders!' That's "gross!" Oh shit--there goes my boner! Except not: I keep reading, and even if muscl4life continues to say things "violating my personal fantasies" I keep reading. I may grumble to myself for a bit that 'it's his thing not mine,' but I continue to enjoy that story because for the most part--perhaps with some amendments by my imagination--it gets me off.

That incidental element--Muscl4life's preference for "freaky growth"--although not my preference does not become impedement to my getting off. You work with what you've got. It is effortless. If what you've got is so foul that it is unacceptible then find a different story. We have several hundred or thousand. Even the pickiest hornball can find sustenance--I should know, I've read most of them myself.

In conclusion, the "character" of our forum is not determined by the incidental elements occuring in the stories--nor by the header at the top of the page--but by the spirit in which those stories are written.

{Completely beside the point (or is it!?), "male" is not the subject of "male muscle growth." It is a qualifier, describing "growth." "Growth" is the point of the phrase; "muscle" specifies what sort of "growth" (in fact the two could be hyphenated, really) and "male" is elaboration.}

[jpmuscle]

I think you should all be using your great vocabulary and writting skills to QUIT ARGUING AND WRITE STORIES THAT YOU WANT TO SEE ON THIS FORUM, and I will do the same.

I am not upset by this argument as much as I am upset at the direction it has gone (and 2 pages long for shit's sake!!)

I think we should all respect each other's opinions and leave it at that. As long as "Male Muscle Growth" is in the subtitle at the top of the page, there is NO POSSIBLE WAY that this site will be over run with ANYTHING ELSE, let alone female muscle growth, which I also enjoy and am STILL planning to incorporate into this story. I am glad to see such passionate responses to this issue, and I hope you can turn that passion into pixels. Again, I COMMAND YOU ALL!!! Use this energy on writting or drawing or whatever you do to contribute or endorse this website, and I gurantee it will be a pleasant place for all of us. Ignore the nay-sayers and write your MALE MUSCLE GROWTH stories however you want. the most the REAL people in charge can do is delete your posts, but by then you'd know your artistry doesn't belong and you should take it elsewhere. I'm not letting any of this discussion get to me, and neither should you (i'm just responding to the argument in hopes to end it!)

Thanks a million for everyone's views and responding to my story. I hit a snag in writing part 5 (not because of this thread, mind you) but will be finishing it and posting it soon, Male Muscle Growth in tact and a few surprises along the way. As I've said before, I love this site and the outlet it provides for this form of entertainment. I hope all the other writers keep doing what they do best in the meantime, and also hope noone will get injured because of the conflict brewing in the posts above!

I am also interested if anyone would like to see more Magic Posing Strap. I think i could have some more fun with that one as well.
here's a link to part 2, which contains the link to part 1

http://www.musclegrowth.org/forum/sh...ad.php3?t=2015

[Corwin]

Originally Posted by jpmuscle

I think you should all be using your great vocabulary and writting skills to QUIT ARGUING AND WRITE STORIES THAT YOU WANT TO SEE ON THIS FORUM, and I will do the same.

I am not upset by this argument as much as I am upset at the direction it has gone (and 2 pages long for shit's sake!!)

I think we should all respect each other's opinions and leave it at that. As long as "Male Muscle Growth" is in the subtitle at the top of the page, there is NO POSSIBLE WAY that this site will be over run with ANYTHING ELSE, let alone female muscle growth, which I also enjoy and am STILL

If you do, you can be sure that I will complain about it. Loudly, vocally, and often. So, if your really want it to stop, consider your actions. Such a subplot is inappropriate here.

[Sanitarium87Q]

Im not sorry to say this
Corwin, you need more to worry about. It seems like all youre doing at this point is complaining. It's like you're just trying to argue. That quote you have as your signature says to stand firm for what you believe in until logic proves you wrong. I think logic has proven you wrong enough times already, and you still don't give it up. I think if an author wants to incorporate female muscle growth, they can. It's one of those great things about this country... freedom. If you don't think an author deserves this freedom, then go live in france or something. I simply do not see any way for you to actually argue against this without opinionating it. NO WHERE does it say that these stories can not have female muscle growth. If you don't like it in a story, then DON'T READ IT. It's not like because you're reading a story you have to read the entire thing word for word, you are allowed to skip over parts you do not like. If I complained about all the parts in YOUR stories, Corwin, that I didn't like, how far do you think that would get me? What if I tried to argue that your stories have elements that go against my rights? Who would care? And what if my complaining caused your stories to be completely erased from the board, wouldnt you argue that that's against your rights as an author on this site? And please, for the love of God, do NOT try to tell me that you would not mind if that were to happen to you.

"Such a subplot is inappropriate here" What makes you think you are in any position to determine what is and what isn't inappropriate for this site?

[Mad Dog]

Flexodus has even said that we should use our own good judgment to post stories and if he thinks they go too far outside the lines, he just won't put them in the archives. And heterosexual situations didn't seem to concern him that much.