First experience with a girl

[yc2201]

M/F - young muscleboys get their first experiences with a girl.

At 13 years old, Sam and I were the biggest outcasts at school. We were the glasses wearing geeks that all the other kids, both boys and girls, picked on endlessly. Because we were both so lonely we started hanging out with each other and eventually became friends, sharing in each other's pain and together avoiding all the other popular kids. One day when we were in a convenience store Sam started picking up a bodybuilding magazine and started flipping through it. We bought it, and then the next day we came back to the store and bought a different mag, and the day after that another mag. We weren't dumb, we knew we had to end this cycle of nerdiness and we figured by building our muscles up we could protect ourselves. Together, in our bedrooms, we planned, and we exercised. First doing push ups, then scrounging enough money to bar part of a barbell set. Months passed and eventually we began saving enough to purchase a bench and individual dumbbells. We forced ourselves to only eat healthy muscle building food, if I cheated and ate some junk food Sam would tease me mercilessly and I would do the same when he cheated. Thus, we would shame the other until eventually, neither one of us would dare cheat, and our diets eventually became perfect. We trained like animals for months and months. Summer came and we still kept ourselves locked in our rooms, pumping iron, saving what little money we had for even more bodybuilding equipment. School started and we barely noticed that the teasing s had stopped, we were so obsessed with muscle building that we darted home from school to one of our homes to exercise and prepare our meals for the next day.




It only really dawned on us what we had become sometime in early December. It was phys ed class and we were being taught about weight training (hah!), we all took turns on the bench machine to see how much we could do. The most athletic girl in the class (also the hottest) managed to bench 100 pounds. The third strongest boy benched 140 lbs. Sam and I both hit our max at 220 lbs each. Pretty good for a 14 year old! It was then that the super-athletic girl, Lisa Cusmano, started taking an interest in us. It was weird, but for some reason she suddenly started hanging around us and stuff, once even putting her hand on Sam's butt for a second. Then one day Sam showed up an hour late for our daily after school workout session at my house. While we were pumping iron, he told me that he was late because right after school ended, Lisa had undone his pants and sucked his dick until he came. Needless to say I was jealous as hell, I didn't want Sam to get a hot girl like Lisa when I had nothing. I wasn't going to let him get stronger than me, and neither was I going to let Sam keep Lisa all to himself.




The next day I came on to Lisa, it was weird and awkward for me, but she made it easy. She knew I was just as heavily muscled as Sam was, and thats what turned her on. That evening, after Sam had gone home, I called her up and we talked, and eventually she came over, sneaking out of her house and into mine. We started talking about sports and stuff, and of course, all ridiculous amounts of weights that I owned. She asked how much I could bench and curl, and I, of course, showed her...shirtless. She asked if she could feel my muscles and I flexed like a bodybuilding pro, which I pretty much was at that point. Lisa felt me up, probably just the way she felt up Sam the day before. She wanted to see my legs and I pulled them off and flexed them for her, my big quads felt so huge with her small hands on them. She giggled when I relaxed and shook them, the hard muscle going soft and rolling like jelly under her touch. It was then that I asked if I could kiss her. She looked up surprised but only for a moment before standing up and I got my first kiss from a girl at that time. We kissed for a few more minutes, my hard muscled body, naked except for my briefs, rubbing against her small, tight, girly body. She stopped and then went down on her knees, pulling down my underwear! I was totally exposed to her, well, only for a second before she wrapped her lips around my cock and began sucking on it. I couldn't believe what I was feeling at that point. I felt like a boy version of a Greek god or something. I got long and hard in practically no time at all until my dick was pointing upwards with the hottest girl at school licking and sucking the end of it. She paused for a second, looked at my cock and said "wow!" She looked up at me and asked if I had a ruler. My heart skipped a beat and I pointed over at the one on my desk, which she fetched, leaving me for a second totally naked with my underwear pooled around my feet. She came back and pushed the ruler down along the top of my cock so that it was pointing straight at her. She said "wow" again, threw the ruler away and resumed her cocksucking.




The rest of the blowjob was great, several times she lifted herself up to lick my abdominal plates, her small tongue running along the muscley grooves. It didn't take long for me to come, and when I did, it was really messy. I was partway in her mouth when I exploded and a lot of my cum went into her mouth, pouring out the side of her lips and all over her face and t-shirt. I was embarrassed at first but then she laughed and said that it was great. She even wiped her hand on her face, collecting my spunk, and then proceeded to lick my juice off her fingertips! I helped her cleanup with one of my workout towels and eventually she went home, but not before giving me my second kiss on the lips.




That night I was so horny I jerked off for like a good hour, imagining Lisa doing all sorts of crazy things to me with her mouth, and also imaging her worshiping my muscles, I really liked the thought of that. I fantasized about all sorts of wild things, like performing one of those posing routines that bodybuilders do, except that I was buck naked as she crawled all over me, feeling me up, her soft feminine body pressing against my hard boy body. I imagined her measuring my muscles and then measuring my cock, rubbing her hands all over me and licking me all over. I even imagined a threesome with Lisa and her soccer buddy Sarah, where one of them would suck my dick, feeling up my leg muscles, while I made out with the other, who would have her hands all over the muscles of my upper body. If only it were true.

After I busted, I remembered the ruler thing, I reached over and grabbed it and pushed it against my dick like she had done, as my dick was going soft I read the number off of it, 8 inches. Was that a lot? I threw the slimy ruler away and wrapped my sheets around myself, drifting off to a dreamy sleep that was filled with images of horny young girls feeling up my muscles....

[Radiokida]

Great stuff man... nice to see something hetero for a change... it made my day! Just wanted to know how much I appreciate stories with heterosexual themes. Keep it up, and of course I hope you have a sequel to this.

[muscledude49]

Keep on going, want to hear the rest and also how big were you?

[wrestlejock646]

There's been a lot of discussion about where this forum is heading lately. Is it going to be a straight or gay oriented forum and is it going to be one in which there is a central theme of MALE muscle growth? This story seems to be to be clearly outside the focus of this forum. I'm not saying it shouldn't be submitted somewhere, like Nifty.org or some other erotic story board, but it really doesn't belong here on the Male Muscle Growth board, in my opinion. I'm not complaining about the skill of the author but there was only an incidental reference to any actual muscle growth of the male characters--they locked themselves in a room and lifted and got bigger. No details of the workouts, no details of the muscle growth, no mention of any interractions between the two male characters. The real focus of the story was on a male-female encounter.

While there isn't anything wrong with this story--if it was posted in the correct forum--it does really represent the start down a "slippery slope," as several other authors and board participants mentioned. It seems as if it is now ok for any story including a reference to a guy lifting some weights and hooking up with a woman as a central theme, being submitted here. That is what I think Corwin, Leather Gryphon and others were objecting to, at least in part. I happen to agree with them in this area. This story site was established as a male muscle growth story archive with implicit, if not explicit, homoerotic themes.

If straight men or women came on here looking to read erotic fiction and were curious and pleased enough to come back for more male muscle themed stories, more power to them. If they want to contribute to the forum with stories that mirror that theme, even better. But, the intention of this forum was that it was a gay oriented, muscle growth story archive and bulletin board. I think that is clear if anyone goes back and looks at the stories that have been achived here.

Personally, I don't have any problem with stories like Truckland III, or numerous others in which there are some straight elements but also a clear tension between two or more males trying to get bigger, stronger or more dominant than the other. My complaint is that a story which has "first encounter with a girl" as its title is a clear example of drift away from any stated or unstated focus of a well established board such as this one.

[ethernet_jock]

Wow Wrestlejock....

I couldn't DISagree more with you. I don't think it would be possible.

who made you the fantasy police?

Isn't there enough room on here for everyone?

If you don't like it, don't read it!

who ever said that this was for "gay only" or "gay with a couple straight moments" types of stories? Certainly nobody who I've seen post regularly on this sytem for the last 18 months or so.

I'm really disappointed with your response WJ.... I enjoyed this story even though it could have been better in terms of length, quality, and detail..... but I thought it was an awesome step in a direction I haven't seen yet.

Being Bisexual.... I absolutely love the "straight side" of muscle building and sex fantasy because you hardly ever see it.

so uhh h yeah.... speak for yourself.... and... if you dont' like it, don't read it.

Do you feel intimmidated by a straight presence? Does it make you uncomfortable?

I just don't understand.

[/\/\usclekid]

It's really about balance. This story is more toward the sexual side. Muscle growth should be the center of every story posted on this board.

[Voyager]

I have to agree with Ethernet Jock. What I think this forum is about is acceptance. Not every story is going to appeal to every person. But, to exclude some kind of posts because they don't into your vision, especially when you are not the host of the board...I'm sorry...that is just not right.

If anything, this forum has shown that both straight and gay can have male muscle fantasies. Please, don't we have enough prejudice and exclusion in today's society? Isn't it great that we can come together on some things?

Now, if you'll excuse me, I have to post my final chapter of the story I have written. I hope everyone, gay, straight or bi enjoys it.

Voyager

[ethernet_jock]

Voyager - I'm sure it's an awesome story!! Thanks!!

musclekid - I think it's funny that you should be someone who has only posted twice on this entire forum and voicing an opinion about what the content of stories posted "should" and "should not" be for everyone else.

There is no "should" or "should not" in art.... didn't anyone ever teach you people that?

Art and Fantasy come together in the form of these stories that people write. There is no right or wrong or should or shouldn't.... there is definitely like and dislike, but that's a personal judgement.

It's sad to me that there are so many people who can't make that distinction or tolerance.

---

Incidentally - besides the fact that the author could have spent more time on the muscle growth aspect (and I too wish he would have).... I also REALLY appreciated that it was a story about amazing NATURAL muscle growth...

but then again, that's just my own personal judgement. I appreciate natural real muscle growth and a normal sustainable rate to be far more interested and exciting than all this "magic growth syrum" stuff.... but you don't see me telling the author what they should and shouldn't write.

*sigh*

[Muscleluvr]

I'm going to add my $0.02 here as well. I saw the thread title and thought, nah, nothing I'm particularly intersted in. Then I noticed a couple of replies... so that piqued my interest. I DID NOT read the story - it's just not my cup of tea, instead I jumped to the three responses - the first two were congratulatory and thankful, then there was the 'how dare you sully this board with this hetero-non-muscle-growth stuff'. I read his post with interest, as he seemed to be referencing other posters who had expressed similar thoughts, but those posts were nowhere in evidence. So, I'm thinking, "edited or deleted" posts? I left the thread and the board. But the "how dare you post this" still gnawed at me...

Now, I'm back and I see others have weighed in - and I too, have to side with ethernet on this - to say that this 'dosen't belong' or shouldn't have been posted (and keep in mind, I've STILL not read the story, nor do I inted to), is just BS. This board is located in the US, and we still (at least I think we do, not sure if Bush and Co., have tossed it out yet) have the right to free speech. Whether I like the story or not, it's not for me to judge whether it should be posted here or anywhere else. That's a decision for the moderator, and the moderator alone.

How many of you have cried foul over the recent spate of censorship on TV? Saving Private Ryan? Time-delays on awards shows, overly excessive fines for violating rules that could not be more vague? Yet, for some, this same behavior seems to be OK when it's on a private internet forum, dedicated to mostly gay men and their fetish for muscle-growth. Let's not lose sight of the bigger picture here: Censorship=BAD, Freedom of Speech=GOOD.

[BB-61]

Originally Posted by Muscleluvr

I'm going to add my $0.02 here as well. I saw the thread title and thought, nah, nothing I'm particularly intersted in. Then I noticed a couple of replies... so that piqued my interest. I DID NOT read the story - it's just not my cup of tea, instead I jumped to the three responses - the first two were congratulatory and thankful, then there was the 'how dare you sully this board with this hetero-non-muscle-growth stuff'. I read his post with interest, as he seemed to be referencing other posters who had expressed similar thoughts, but those posts were nowhere in evidence. So, I'm thinking, "edited or deleted" posts? I left the thread and the board. But the "how dare you post this" still gnawed at me...

Now, I'm back and I see others have weighed in - and I too, have to side with ethernet on this - to say that this 'dosen't belong' or shouldn't have been posted (and keep in mind, I've STILL not read the story, nor do I inted to), is just BS. This board is located in the US, and we still (at least I think we do, not sure if Bush and Co., have tossed it out yet) have the right to free speech. Whether I like the story or not, it's not for me to judge whether it should be posted here or anywhere else. That's a decision for the moderator, and the moderator alone.

How many of you have cried foul over the recent spate of censorship on TV? Saving Private Ryan? Time-delays on awards shows, overly excessive fines for violating rules that could not be more vague? Yet, for some, this same behavior seems to be OK when it's on a private internet forum, dedicated to mostly gay men and their fetish for muscle-growth. Let's not lose sight of the bigger picture here: Censorship=BAD, Freedom of Speech=GOOD.

And if you did actually read the story you'd find it does contain male muscle growth, so it should have a home here.

I thank you though for speaking from the voice of reason, and demonstrating true tolerence that some people only give lip service to.

So if it contains some male muscle growth, I don't see why it shouldn't be posted on this site.

[SithSpawn]

Originally Posted by ethernet_jock

There is no "should" or "should not" in art

Yes there is, Tracy Emin SHOULD be shot for some of the crap she's churned out!!

[sexiscriptor]

Bahahaha--that's so mean, but funny.

[paarke]

Did you see her latest entry for the Turner Prize? A burned out warehouse. More or less sums it up. Anyway, post what you like, if I don't like it I won't read it. I'm sure there are plenty that will.

[Mdlftr]

Originally Posted by /\/\usclekid

It's really about balance. This story is more toward the sexual side. Muscle growth should be the center of every story posted on this board.

...and the majority of just about ALL the stories on this site AREN'T 'toward the sexual side'??!!


Sounds like a case of 'whose ox is being gored'!

Remember the "skip" button!


Mdlftr

[SithSpawn]

There's a "skip" button? what the hell does that do?

And don't say "skips" cos that really won't help.

[giantw]

I liked this story. There were some good images of muscle worship in it.

...Are we in the midst of a "hetero revolution" here??? If so, I think we should be a little more welcoming to our "straight" comrades.

[giantw]

I liked this story. There were some good images of muscle worship in it.

...Are we in the midst of a "hetero revolution" here??? If so, I think we should be a little more welcoming to our "straight" comrades.

[arpeejay]

I enjoyed the story. Nice combo of growing muscle + coming of age + first sex + big dick. I hope there will be more of it!

And, no, the fact that I was married to a woman and have 2 kids does NOT make me bi. I'm as gay as gay can be!

xoxo

richard

[wrestlejock646]

Sorry Ehernet Jock for offending---it wasn't my intention to piss off everybody, rather just to weigh in on what was being said on another thread posting in this story section of the forum. In fact, I hesitated before submitting my comments this morning--maybe not long enough, as my opinion seems to be unanimously unpopular. If my comments were taken as mean-spirited and intolerant, I apologize--that wasn't the intention. I do know the meaning of a skip button but rarely use it. I'd rather read something new than read nothing at all and I check this board daily to read new posts in all the content areas. I don't complain about spelling errors or grammatical shortcomings of authors, their length, depth or anything else. In fact, I think this is the first post I've ever made in which I wasn't completely complimentary of someone's efforts. But, to accuse me of being intolerant strikes me as a bit of an overkill. It was an opinion and I stated that. I'm not the Evolution Archive God and I won't be criticizing the content of posts again.

Like I said, there are numerous stories that have hetero themes which also have significant tension between male characters who are engaged in muscle growth in any number of scenarios, which I like a great deal. I never want to inhibit the enthusiasm of those who do make the effort to write a story.

I do stand by the comments I made in which I agreed with Corwin and Leather Gryphon on some of the "drift" issues that are inherent with broadening the scope of this board to include stories which have only incidental muscle growth and strictly straight behavior between characters. I'm not hung up on every story having sex, gay or otherwise. I simply think that when one or more of the most prolific and talented authors on this board hint that they may be contribute less to it, because they feel the board is shifting from where it started to where they think its going, you have to at least consider their perspectives. That's all I tried to do and state--obviously not well enough.

I don't think its censorship to have established rules about content, by the way. It might be too late to establish such content parameters on this board, since nothing overt has been stated about contributions up til now, but to deny that the overwhelming number of stories have been gay fantasy based is incorrect. Take a look in the archives themselves. As any Yahoo title page usually establishes, there is stated focus of the group--take a look at the keywords listed on the 'Muscle Growth Story' Yahoo Group title page that links to this board:

Keywords: muscle muscular gay men sexy hunk bodybuilder bodybuilding bicep abs stories erotic ripped vasular freaky growth morph stud beefy outgrow worship

Maybe the keywords need to be adjusted?

[ethernet_jock]

Wrestlejock,

You apologized and then you took it back....

I still don't understand and can't agree with your perspective on this. You're still trying to set a tone and an expectation for strict homosexuality. If there is a talented author who writes great stories with homosexual themes, why should he be intimmidated by a hetero or bisexual presence? Popularity has no sexual identity, does it?

I don't see why additional content here is a problem... it's no replacement content or a "change of the tide" or a "swing in direction"... it's just additional content of a different theme.

I've always gotten along well with Cor and LG but if everyone's going to get offended and sickened and disappointed by the mere presence of a bisexual or heterosexual theme then I'm going to challenge that and call you all a bunch of yellow pussie boys.... what - you can't handle something different? I came here with open arms and an embraceful open mind about other people's desires and sexual attitudes, what gives you any more right to be close-minded and elitest about homosexuality? I've definitely learned a lot from this group.... both on weight training and sexuality.... and learned more about myself in the process too! I don't see why we can't all grow and learn from alternative experiences, regardless of your perspective.

I don't get it guys.... I just don't.

*sigh*

I know you're not trying to sound elitest or exclusionary wrestlejock - but the more things you say about it - the more it sounds even more clearly that way to my ears.

Let me ask you this - in the 350-some-odd posts I've made on this board - have I ever said anything to anyone that sounded elitest or exclusionary at all in any sexual identity type of way?

[ethernet_jock]

and thank you RPJ for finding your own elements of interest in the story.... isn't that the bottom line?

[Marco_ukmus]

Here Here Ether! I compeletly agree!

Ok, so i'm just one of a few of those so called "straight comrades" as giantw put it. When I read the muscle growth stories I read them for the growth aspect, hence the title of this site and forum "The Male Muscle Growth Forum & archive". Now personally I can't read to far into sections of a story that contain sexual interactions between two males, and nor would i want to. I have established a great technique in skim reading for those sections. Anyway, after all, most of us are really interested in the actual GROWTH sections and that is what one could deam universual to all of us, whether your gay, bi, straight or something else.

Originally Posted by wrestlejock646

...If my comments were taken as mean-spirited and intolerant, I apologize--that wasn't the intention. I do know the meaning of a skip button but rarely use it.

I'm sure it was not arguably your intension, but regardless, it was the end result. I've read quite a few argumentative and heated disscusions here in my time since i joined (not so long ago I might add), and it always boils down to pretty much the same thing - That is of the WAY in which people go about expressing their opinion, and infact not so much about that actual intent of the comment(s) made.

Originally Posted by wrestlejock646

I'm not the Evolution Archive God and I won't be criticizing the content of posts again.

I don't think you should be criticizing it, No, but god forbid, if we start saying what one can't and cannot post here (over and above the rules set by the forum God) then we start to impinge on freedom of expression and, like Ether said, freedom of speech. You ARE and alsways will be (as long as we don't go down this very route too far) allowed to express your opinions. That is one of the things that makes getting feedback interesting, not everyone will like your work, we are all different and like different things. And diversity is a Great thing!

Originally Posted by wrestlejock646

I do stand by the comments I made in which I agreed with Corwin and Leather Gryphon on some of the "drift" issues that are inherent with broadening the scope of this board to include stories which have only incidental muscle growth and strictly straight behavior between characters. I'm not hung up on every story having sex, gay or otherwise. I simply think that when one or more of the most prolific and talented authors on this board hint that they may be contribute less to it, because they feel the board is shifting from where it started to where they think its going, you have to at least consider their perspectives. That's all I tried to do and state--obviously not well enough....

It might be too late to establish such content parameters on this board, since nothing overt has been stated about contributions up til now, but to deny that the overwhelming number of stories have been gay fantasy based is incorrect...

The only problem with using the word SCOPE is that it inherently infers that guidelines or boundaries have been set. I think i'm correct in assuming that one will find no such text anywhere here. Now OBVIOUSLY the theme and to a large extent, scope is set by the very words which entitle this group and site, that of Muscle Growth. But nowhere does it have the words "for gays only", "oh and bi's only on Saturdays". If you do find it, then i stand corrected... Now, surely as long as the story or submission touches on muscle growth in one form or another, it qualifies as elidable for a place on this site? And if if it doesn't we have the general disscusion areas... Why is it that people have to start drawing boundaries and making it exclussive... don't you want it to have diversity? Even if you did (hyperthetically), then how would you enforce it anyway? ... Now don't get me wrong, I know that the over whelming majority of people whom read the texts here are of a gay origin, but who said its just for gays? With regards to stories though, even if we did have a scope and guidelines made, it would be extremely hard to ahear to, taking in to consideration the enormious diversity in writing styles, not to mention the huge amount of time it would take for the forum God to go through and check them. Story Police... or an infringement of freedom of speech?...

CONCLUSION

Therefore it simply comes down to the fact that if you don't like it, don't read it. Of course the irony being that in many cases you do have to read it to determine whether or not you like it ;0) If you want to share your opinion then DO, but think carefully about how you word it. If you can't write something in such away that it won't offend then think carefully before posting it. I personally, obvsiouly, would love to see a lot more stories with hetro sex scenes and enormious muscle growth. Maybe some of you guys don't like the thought of skim reading them...

Marc

[Corwin]

Originally Posted by ethernet_jock

Isn't there enough room on here for everyone?

No. This forum has a purpose.

As I warned, posting these type of stories will cause complaints. If you don't want the complaints, don't post them.

There seems to be a concerted effort now to change the nature of this site. When people try that, there will be backlash, hurt feelings, and people leaving in disgust.

Think about that for a while before people continue this current course of action.

[Corwin]

Originally Posted by wrestlejock646

I don't think its censorship to have established rules about content, by the way.

Censorship is government action.

Thanks for the kind words.

[Corwin]

Originally Posted by ethernet_jock

and thank you RPJ for finding your own elements of interest in the story.... isn't that the bottom line?

No it is not.

[massingUP]

Hey all,

I've been resisting making any comment on the current debates around non-male muscle-growth and/or heterosexual non-muscle-growth stories. But I think that maybe I'll post a few thoughts here, if only b/c it seems to me that folks like Corwin and wrestlejock646 are being misread. Perhaps with the best of intentions, but misread all the same.

There have been some attributions of anti-hetero feelings and there has been free-speech posturing, but I think the underlying issue here is not necessarily whether the stories are gay or straight, but whether this site is going to become "all things to all people" or whether it is going to focus on a specific set of sexual fantasies.

The issues of what the "focus" of this site has been in the past and what the focus might shift to are almost immaterial here -- though that's what has been getting all of the attention. No website needs to be everything to all people ? I suspect that most of us here would find it odd to attack someone for questioning a post about motorcycles that appeared on a Knitting website. ?If you want to talk about motorcycles, go find a motorcycle website,? we might say. ?This place is for talk about knitting.? We wouldn?t attack the questioner for being ?motorphobic.? In fact, the site here already has a section called ?Off-topic Discussion? -- is it censorship when we ask someone to post their comment?s about Christo?s ?The Gates? installation in NYC in the ?Off-Topic? area rather than in the ?Bodybuilding? section?

Still, when it comes to identity politics and particularly to issues of sexual identity, things are always more complicated. And so tempers have been flaring and people have been getting riled up.

Personally, I find the free-speech arguments a little disingenuous in this particular case. It?s not like this is the only erotic fiction web site in the world or like there aren?t plenty of other places for people to post specifically muscle-oriented fiction.

What?s at issue here is the fact that this site has gathered together a bunch of very talented authors who specialize in male muscle growth, and that many others come here to enjoy their work and to maybe even take a shot at writing some stuff themselves. And if the focus shifts away from that, we are likely to lose some a number of the people who have made the site so worth-while.

This isn?t necessarily a terrible things ? websites and their audiences change and grow and shift over time. And if the site shifts to become a more generic ?erotica? site I?m sure those who are more interested specifically in male-muscle-growth will go elsewhere to start a new site. But it IS a real change to the nature of the site ? and so something that should be debated and discussed. Which is what?s happening here now. And I?m glad of it.

Finally, I think we?ve all lost site that this site is NOT a public site ? it?s run by a private individual who has chosen to make it available to us. Ultimately, the decision of what the site is ?about? rests with him.

Okay. That?s my two cents? worth. Let the acrimony flow.

-- James

[Corwin]

Originally Posted by Marco_ukmus

I don't think you should be criticizing it, No, but god forbid, if we start saying what one can't and cannot post here (over and above the rules set by the forum God) then we start to impinge on freedom of expression and, like Ether said, freedom of speech.

And instead you are impinging on the Freedom of Association. In the USA, Freedom of expression/speech/association are ALL what are known as First Amendment Rights.

People here are not really worried about speech rights. If they were, there wouldn't be complaints about dissent. eg "You ARE and alsways will be (as long as we don't go down this very route too far)" Dissent is also a free speech right. There are too many people complaining about the disagreements and the vitriol for anyone with anything but a passing knowledge of such rights to take them seriously.

Rights are often in conflict. It is intellectually dishonest to assert that one right, like speech, automatically trumps other rights, like association. This is a PRIVATE forum. As such, legally, it would enjoy substantial protections for the freedom of association. Like the Boy Scouts, this forum may restrict the speech rights of its participants when those participants fail to respect its rules. Here, I believe the rule is that stories be about Male Muscle Growth, at least loosely.

Originally Posted by Marco_ukmus

I think i'm correct in assuming that one will find no such text anywhere here. Now OBVIOUSLY the theme and to a large extent, scope is set by the very words which entitle this group and site, that of Muscle Growth.

NO! MALE MUSCLE GROWTH!

The next part of what you write is the most telling...

Originally Posted by Marco_ukmus

But nowhere does it have the words "for gays only", "oh and bi's only on Saturdays". If you do find it, then i stand corrected... Now, surely as long as the story or submission touches on muscle growth in one form or another, it qualifies as elidable for a place on this site?

This is really the issue. To be perfectly blunt, many of you straight boys can't stand being in a minority. Many of you can't admit the homoeroticism you feel when reading the stories of male muscle growth. That is why marco loses the word male and concentrates only on muscle growth. I don't recall any gay/bi man ever complaining on this site about a story's heterosexual content, but even in this thread, we see the straight boys celebrating heterosexual sex. I've seen many threads where straight guys complain about the gay sex.

Many of you straight boys have led lives of privilege. You assume you have a right to co-opt things to make them as you want them, especially where sex is concerned. A site that has the predominant theme of male muscle growth is suddenly a gay site (your words, not ours), and anything you can do to make it straight is fair game. Let the faggots be damned!

Originally Posted by Marco_ukmus

And if if it doesn't we have the general disscusion areas... Why is it that people have to start drawing boundaries and making it exclussive... don't you want it to have diversity?

As I have said, I can't recall any gay man complaining about straight sex in a story. Here, you say: "I can't read to far into sections of a story that contain sexual interactions between two males, and nor would i want to. I have established a great technique in skim reading for those sections." RadioKidA says: "Great stuff man... nice to see something hetero for a change..." You know, the gay guys aren't the ones complaining about diversity, it is the straight guys. We aren't the ones being intolerant, it is the straight guys who are trying to coopt this site to be about "muscle growth" rather than "male muscle growth". The problem is, many of you don't see it because you either don't want to or are so unaccustomed to being told that your beliefs are not in the norm, you can't deal with it.

I think what is most instructive is that none of you straight boys have created a forum of your own where this argument won't happen. At least some of you are determined to force your view on us here, even though several of us have complained and continue to complain. You simply don't care and keep asserting your straight-boy rights to misrepresent the purpose of this group.

Originally Posted by Marco_ukmus

Even if you did (hyperthetically), then how would you enforce it anyway? ... Now don't get me wrong, I know that the over whelming majority of people whom read the texts here are of a gay origin, but who said its just for gays? With regards to stories though, even if we did have a scope and guidelines made, it would be extremely hard to ahear to, taking in to consideration the enormious diversity in writing styles, not to mention the huge amount of time it would take for the forum God to go through and check them. Story Police... or an infringement of freedom of speech?...

Remember, you are the one who is making this a gay/straight thing. How can it be enforced? The site can be taken down. The owner can delete stories that are inappropriate. The owner can ban posters (he's done it before). And, most of all, those of us that feel strongly about it can and will continue to complain.

Originally Posted by Marco_ukmus

Therefore it simply comes down to the fact that if you don't like it, don't read it.

This is not about like. This is about the purpose of this group. Try to understand that. Try hard.

[wrestlejock646]

As usual, your comments were far more eloquent than mine---thanks for expressing some of my sentiments far better than I did.

[iceman75]

I've read a lot in this forum and since I was one of the first to request more hetero-themed stories, I thought I could explain my position the best way I know how. Now first of all, we heterosexuals are not trying to take over this site, we are just trying to get the fact that there is a fair amount of us here and we would like to read more hetero-themed material. Now saying that, it seems to me that the non-hetero community, which no doubt comprises the majority of this site has been very defensive, feeling that when a hetero-themed story comes on the site, it will begin the destruction of the site as a whole. This couldn't be any farther from the truth, because this site is made up of a great majority of gay muscle growth stories, and the straight stories will never gain that majority, and thats alright, because we know that the content of the site should reflect the membership of the site, but that means those of us of the heterosexual persuasion should have a little voice, because there is more than 1 or 2 of us on this site. I don't see how you could be threatened by such a small community within a community, the majority as I have said many times has the overall control, but that doesn't mean us in the minority shouldn't have a voice, if that happened that would make this a dictatorship. The weak should be able to speak.

[fleXodus]

This site is and always has been about Male Muscle Growth.

Some stories involve sexual situations -- some don't. Some stories have gay themes, some stories have straight themes while some have a combination of the two.

I think as long as the emphasis of a story is on male muscle growth, then the content of the post would be relevant to the stated content of the forum. Of course what one considers to be an 'emphasis' on something could vary from person to person. And I think this is where a lot of the disagreements lie. There have been a number of stories posted that (in my opinion) have touched upon the male muscle growth element so briefly as to seem an afterthought. This story is one of them. I honestly don't mind it when stories have gay or straight sex scenes... but only when the story as a whole is balanced so that members can enjoy the CORE elements of male muscle growth, irrespective of whether or not the story continues on to involve any gay or straight sex. Remember, MALE MUSCLE GROWTH is the subject of this website and of the stories posted here. The rest is just icing on the cake. It is not a gay or straight issue (though some members seem determined to take that stance). However, anyone going through to read the stories posted here and in the archives would realize that there is no dilineation between straight or gay when it comes to the themes involved in these stories. Even a good number of the stories involve no sex whatsoever.

Given that this site is about male muscle growth, the stories posted need to be inclusive of that theme. Obviously I can't state in concrete definition how much "male muscle growth" details in a story would make it sufficiently on-topic. Something like that can't be defined in binary detail. And I've been very lax about this because I left it up to the posters and writers to get a feel for the forum and the body of stories already posted here before contributing to the site. Most times, people "got it". But if needed, I reserve the right to use my judgement to refile or remove any stories that are considered to be off-topic. It would be futile for me to aim to please everybody, but I can and will make decisions that are consistent with what I envision for this website. If you are a fan of Male Muscle Growth, this is what you will find and continue to enjoy on this website.

If this were truly an issue about censorship, there would not be an Off-topic forum dedicated to any and all NON-musclegrowth related discussion nor would any of the heated debate in this thread be in existence.

[sexiscriptor]

It's nice to hear from you flexodus,

And thank you for the well-balanced statement; the recent debate has been getting so dynamic lately that any grounding is better than none, so although I speak only for myself I am sure your posting here is appreciated.

Anyway, Good work on keeping this site going, and power to you in the future!

[massingUP]

Originally Posted by iceman75

Now first of all, we heterosexuals are not trying to take over this site, we are just trying to get the fact that there is a fair amount of us here and we would like to read more hetero-themed material. Now saying that, it seems to me that the non-hetero community, which no doubt comprises the majority of this site has been very defensive, feeling that when a hetero-themed story comes on the site, it will begin the destruction of the site as a whole.

Hey Ice,

Thanks for your honest post... I was wondering if/when this issue was going to come up. Because I think you're very right in your reading of the mood. And I think that there is background that might help explain the defensiveness...

As you may know, most erotic space in which gay folk feel comfortable is carved out carefully and sometimes dangerously from a larger world that is often very hostile to that erotic energy. And so it is generally rather closely guarded. This doesn't mean that gay-friendly str8 folk aren't welcome, but it does mean that things can sometimes get tense. I'll tell a story that I'm sure many gay guys here will recognize.

When I was in Montreal, I used to go to a great gay bar called KOX. (Rather obvious name, I know.) It was a lot of fun and very popular. And like many popular gay bars, it also attracted a certain crowd of cool-and-gay-friendly str8 people. Which is great. I used to go there and bring str8 friends. But at a certain point, a critical mass of str8 folks can form, and that typically starts to attract more and more...

Now if it were only the cool-and-gay-friendly str8 folks who would come out to these space, that would be okay. But that's not how it works. Slowly but surely over time, the bar not only got less gay (after all, there are WAY more str8 people in the world than gay people) but it also got very anti-gay. I atually got threatened with violence IN A GAY BAR for looking at a guy. And another time, some guy gave me a real hard time for talking to his girlfriend -- once again, IN A GAY BAR. And it's a cyber-version of this process which I think some people are worrying about here...

I don't think that anyone here has any problem with any of the actual PEOPLE who are currently posting here -- after all, you have clearly entered a gay-friendly erotic space in good faith and with a great deal of grace and open-mindedness. And that's wonderful. I personally appreciate it a great deal and I think that it bodes well for a more tolerant future...

But just because gay people are in a majority here in this particular site doesn't change the fact that we are distinctly outnumbered in the world-at-large -- and that means that we can be rather defensive about gay-friendly spaces that seem like they might be at the begining of a process of slipping away...

Anyways. It's not fair. But I thought it might explain a bit of the reactions here... or (since I don't speak for anyone but myself) explain mine...

Thanks for listening,

-- James

[ethernet_jock]

It's 10pm after a hard day at work... I can't muster up enough intelligence for unbiased clarity of thought so I'm going to leave with only a couple short remarks that I just couldn't skip out without saying:

Corwin - Wow... a gay person with a closed mind, a highly defensive posture, AND a holier-than-thou attitude?! They still make you? I thought those went out with the Betamax.

Get real - everyone has struggles in life. Just because you're gay doesn't mean that you've lived the hardest life in the world and are therefore entitled to be a prick. And yes - I am referring directly to your remark about straight people living a "privilidged life". I would trade childhood experiences with anyone in this group in a near heartbeat with probably only 1 exception.

Marcus - thanks for trying - but it would seem that most of them don't get it.

Flex - Thank you for making the REAL object here clear. I think you said what I was trying to say almost exactly and with a much more un-biased approach. The essence of my feeling was why does this have to be about sexuality?

I've never complained about a single gay theme and in fact you can find me defending one in another thread from a moron who said something along the lines of "you guys are sick". So why is it ok to attack someone on the basis of heterosexuality?

I just don't get it, and no amount of fancy words, defensive posturing, or elitest homosexual attitude is going to fix that inside my head. No matter which angle I try to see or which pair of ruby red slippers I stick my ogre-sized feet into.... I still can't see the light of your position.... Corwin... or anyone taking that attitude.

Sorry - I don't see us headed in any particular direction other than where we've been since I started here. If my presence here makes you uncomfortable merely for the fact of being a bisexual who enjoys both sides of the conversation, just let me know that bluntly and I'll be happy to depart.

THanks... and that's enough for tonight. Bed time... I need my muscle sleep.

:P

[Marco_ukmus]

Well, hasn't this debate just heated up somewhat...

Corwin - You can't even imagine how ticked off i was when i read your reply today. I mean I am personally a VERY tolerant person, accepting of pretty much anyone. And those I choose not to be accepting of is based purely on their personality, and NOTHING to do with their sexual orientation.

When i made those comments about not being able to read too far in to a gay sex scene in a story, I meant it, its my personal opinion. I'm not speaking for every hetrosexual person in the entire would, and i was most definietly not trying in any way shape or form trying to inforce my beliefs and opinions on you or anyone else for that matter. Simply sharing.

Originally Posted by Corwin

NO! MALE MUSCLE GROWTH!

The next part of what you write is the most telling...

Goodness me, This is simply me using a shortened reference! If you look ealier on in my post i did use the full title, and i quote "The Male Muscle Growth Forum & archive". Later on I just referred to it in short as Muscle growth. You should not have read to far into that because i was NOT infering anything! Jesus!

Originally Posted by Corwin

This is really the issue. To be perfectly blunt, many of you straight boys can't stand being in a minority.

Many of you can't admit the homoeroticism you feel when reading the stories of male muscle growth. That is why marco loses the word male and concentrates only on muscle growth.

Have I ever complained about being in a minority... No. And before you say it, I know you used the word MANY, its just be the way you have written it, it almost "sounds" personal, which i'm sure its not. I personally have absolutly no problem being the minority here.

As for your second comment in the quote, I have no problem in admitting that there is indeed some truth in the fact that if a deemed hetrosexual male has a flash of homoeroticism feeling, as you so eloquently put it, they may feel somewhat confused, if not a bit weird as a result. But as we have discussed here before, the whole gay straight thing is very elastic, and hormones can make a huge difference to the thoughts of a given male from one day to another. So there you go, you have one hetrosexual male that has JUST admitted it! And if I have, then i'm sure i speak for a lot of other males. Thats not to say they'd admit it to you face to face. But hey, thats not the issue here.

And again, that's NOT why I missed the word MALE out of various references to the forum.

Originally Posted by Corwin

I don't recall any gay/bi man ever complaining on this site about a story's heterosexual content, but even in this thread, we see the straight boys celebrating heterosexual sex. I've seen many threads where straight guys complain about the gay sex.

I'm sure there have been, frankly I can't be bothered to trawl through the forum just to find a reference to inforce this point. Maybe its just you don't wish to recall it. Why is that you are so touchy about this, your VERY defensive...

I have seen tons of threads celebrating gay sex in stories, how it was described and the way in which the author went about writting it... so how is it different for the VERY small minority of straight guys when we do it? Theres no need to be threatened by us, I don't think there is suddenly going to be a huge flood of straight guys.

Originally Posted by Corwin

Many of you straight boys have led lives of privilege.

How would you know that we have lived lives of privilege? Things always seem greener on the other side. And what happens behind closed doors might tell a VERY different story to the one that you see from where you stand. How is this relevent anyway?

Originally Posted by Corwin

You assume you have a right to co-opt things to make them as you want them, especially where sex is concerned. A site that has the predominant theme of male muscle growth is suddenly a gay site (your words, not ours), and anything you can do to make it straight is fair game. Let the faggots be damned!

Firstly, I would NEVER assume any such rights as to walts in and take over, or change the theme of a group and nor would i want to. I was mearly making the point that if the site has a majority of a gay audience, that it could be taken as, or perceived as a site predominantly aimed at them. I NEVER said it was a gay site... I don't wish to change ANYTHING here, least of all make it a placed for a equal number of straight guys. Your taking what I said and manipulating it turning this into some Gay v straight issue.

Originally Posted by Corwin

the gay guys aren't the ones complaining about diversity, it is the straight guys.

No, the more i think about it, its you that appears to be complaining about diversity. As I have said before, I have absolutely no problem being the minority here. My comments in my earlier post about the fact that it was deemed a gay site were in reflection with an ealier post made by wrestlejock646, and this was in view of the story content, and by no means the, what you appear to have taken it as, the wider issue of Gays and Straight guys.

Originally Posted by Corwin

We aren't the ones being intolerant,

Oh but you are, you just started condemning various people for making comments about seeing more of hetro stuff, or seeing it as a change... You don't see me going, "oh here's another story with a gay sex scene in it" do you. Which in any case, would be extremely silly given that the majority of stories have a gay scene in it. I think its simply that having a hetro sex scene just makes a great change for the hetro sexual readers here, not having to skim the sections. I'm BY NO MEANS suggestioning that we should start mass producing stories just for us or changing the achieves...

Originally Posted by Corwin

... it is the straight guys who are trying to coopt this site to be about "muscle growth" rather than "male muscle growth". The problem is, many of you don't see it because you either don't want to or are so unaccustomed to being told that your beliefs are not in the norm, you can't deal with it.

Again, it was a shortened reference!!!! If I could go back an edit it everywhere then i'd add the male part. Besides, I don't get turned on my female muscle, and anyone coming here to read posts and stories would learn that VERY quickly so I don't think thats the issue is it Corwin, its about sexual orientation and the connotations of it on this site...

Originally Posted by Corwin

I think what is most instructive is that none of you straight boys have created a forum of your own where this argument won't happen. At least some of you are determined to force your view on us here, even though several of us have complained and continue to complain.

Here in my mind lies the issue, I sure there are sites out there that do tackle stories and what not for the stright guy. However, I chose to come here, and respect fully the major audience here. And again, I would not wish to change that... As for infocing my opinion, well surely everyone is entitled to express theirs?

Originally Posted by Corwin

You simply don't care and keep asserting your straight-boy rights to misrepresent the purpose of this group.

I do care as I am VERY respectful, and I don't keep asserting my, as you put it, "Straight boy rights", and what rights are these anyway? If there are any please let me know... I assume I am equal with everyone else and therefore no different... And what do you mean by mis-represent? In what way am i mis-reprensting the group? Its all about MALE muscle growth here, I know that as, obviously, otherwise I would not be here... So again I can only conclude that your mis-representation is yet again aimed at not about the story, of which this threads debate started, but indeed about a more wider issue of straight guys actually coming here and people like you feeling somehow threatened by this... Maybe this issue is the under lying reason why we have people saying that they are feeling thats its time to leave... how silly!

Originally Posted by Corwin

Remember, you are the one who is making this a gay/straight thing. How can it be enforced? The site can be taken down. The owner can delete stories that are inappropriate. The owner can ban posters (he's done it before). And, most of all, those of us that feel strongly about it can and will continue to complain.

I think I have shown you enough that its not straight guys making this a gay/straight thing, but indeed, people like you.

Originally Posted by Corwin

This is not about like. This is about the purpose of this group. Try to understand that. Try hard.

I believe the thread started with a story and its only as the thread has progressed that the wider issue of it being a gay/straight thing has really come out as indeed the prominent issue.

Corwin, I'm sure that you did not intend on me taking this personally, and I hope that when you read this that you can rest assure that I by no means intend on you taking what i have written personally. However, I can see through reading your replies that this is an issue close to your heart and one that you feel VERY strongly about. But lets cast aside the debate for one moment, what do you propose is the solusion? that all straight guys leave the forum now (not that this could be implemented), or prehaps that our dear friend flex somehow interviews each poster to see if they are actually gay and ban the others from posting... I really don't see where we go from here...

I digress for now.

Peace!

Marc
P.S. Thanks massingUP for your last post, I think you hit the heart of the issue, making it a lot clearer for us straight folk.
And thanks iceman75 for you comments, you see Corwin, yet another Hetro being tolerant and respectful...

[paarke]

This is a predominantly homosexual orientated board, but I'm sure our heterosexual friends are more than aware of that when they join. Ultimately they share our same interest in muscle and bodybuilding. I've never seen any evidence of any intolerance or homophobia, and as far as I'm concerned, they're more than welcome to be here.

I prefer to think of myself as a man who happens to be gay rather than a gay man. My sexual preferences are only one aspect of my personality, and life is so much more interesting if you are able to talk to people from different perspectives and with different experiences and share them. Maybe I'm being too idealistic, but I much prefer the idea of a mixed, coherent group, rather than a society where we're all packed off into different sects according to race, religion or sexual preferences.

I have many heterosexual friends, and as long as they afford me the respect of not judging me on my sexuality I will gladly do the same for them. Many of the heterosexual members of this group have been active contributors, and I appreciate their contributions. I should contribute more myself. I'm quite happy to read a story and gloss over any sex scenes that aren't necessarlily my "thing".

The only problem I can forsee is that other people will be guilty of making my mistake, and just assuming that people are gay. If I've made any comments that offended anyone because of this, I apologise, I didn't know!

This isn't suddenly going to turn into a hetero board. I suspect most staright guys just aren't comfortable enough with their sexuality to explore their ideals of masulinity. Lets just welcome the ones that are and thank them for sharing their thoughts and experiences.

[SithSpawn]

Why not do what I do. If I find a story I really like with some content I don't like I just copy and paste it into word, remove what I don't want and save it (don't worry all you authors out there I don't re-submit them anywhere).

Some stories are great but not always written with the best grammar (possibly due to English not being the native tongue), sometimes for scenes that don't add much to the story or repeat things, or, in the case of the Superpowers Universe, to get rid of those damned sound effects (sorry, love the story but they really distract me which pisses me off). If the story has a gay sex scene in it but you really like the story then copy, paste, re-jig it ie. Change the guy to a girl or get rid of the sex scene and have a testosterone fueled backslapping scene, then save it how you want it.

Does that make sense or have I broken loads of copyright rules and am about to be banned?

[Corwin]

Originally Posted by ethernet_jock

Corwin - Wow... a gay person with a closed mind, a highly defensive posture, AND a holier-than-thou attitude?! They still make you? I thought those went out with the Betamax.

Uhm... In the other thread, I was quite clear. I said, "this site is about male muscle growth." It seems that Flexodus agrees with me.

What I got was that the gay/straight argument. I get arguments about heterosexual sex. Those are red herrings. Again, the owner of the site agrees.

Yet, those arguments kept coming up. Why?

In olden times (the 1980s and 1990s), usenet was very popular. There was a group called soc.women (social women). Some straight boys found it and drove all the women away. The men felt an entitlement to do what they want. It happened there, and it can happen here.

You might think it is closed mindedness, but try looking at it from the other side.

[Corwin]

Originally Posted by Marco_ukmus

Goodness me, This is simply me using a shortened reference!

Your post is so internally contradictory that I actually did laugh out loud when I read it. I responded to what you wrote. You wrote "muscle growth", leaving off "male" and then began the "gay/straight" argument.

You want to judge me by what I'm writing. I get to do the same to you.

[Marco_ukmus]

Hi All!

Why do i get the feeling this is turning into a tit-for-tat conversation... Ok lets sort this out once and for all.

Originally Posted by Corwin

Your post is so internally contradictory that I actually did laugh out loud when I read it. I responded to what you wrote. .

I apologise if you finding my first post (assuming thats what your referring to) as contradictatory, but in reflection of the posts earlier on, and that being what it was based on, I believe I made myself quite clear. So if you found it funny then prehaps i should write some more and become a comedian, so chuckle away...

Seriously though;

a) I did write "muscle growth" and did leave off "male" as you have pointed out numerious times now. I have explained to you and the board that I did this as a shortened reference. Nothing more!

b) Looking back at the previous posts I am more than happy to admit that the involvement of freedom of speech is somewhat tenuous, like you say, there are always other boards to post such things and thus it does not apply.

c) what i'm not happy to accept is the involvement of this gay/straight agrument that appears to be so prominent here. If you refer back to post #20 from Ether he says, and i quote, "You're still trying to set a tone and an expectation for strict homosexuality." and this was set well before i started posting on this particular thread so, don't refer to me as the one to blame for introducing the gay/straight argument. And don't go blaming it on Ether either, the underlying issue was there well before he arrived on the scene. We may have just made it more obvious to the naked eye.

Originally Posted by Corwin

You want to judge me by what I'm writing. I get to do the same to you.

This is a slightly immature statement but still, I am by no means judging you. I'm sure in real life your a good guy, its simply that this thread is getting out of hand.

Anyway, you did not answer my question at the end of my last post? whats your thoughts on a solusion? its all very well having this argument but inless theres a solusion then the entire thing is a WASTE OF TIME!

Marc

[Corwin]

Originally Posted by Marco_ukmus

c) what i'm not happy to accept is the involvement of this gay/straight agrument that appears to be so prominent here. If you refer back to post #20 from Ether he says, and i quote, "You're still trying to set a tone and an expectation for strict homosexuality."

and he would be wrong.

Originally Posted by Marco_ukmus

Anyway, you did not answer my question at the end of my last post? whats your thoughts on a solusion? its all very well having this argument but inless theres a solusion then the entire thing is a WASTE OF TIME!

Flexodus has made it perfectly clear that this site is about MALE MUSCLE GROWTH. The solution begins with that. He also made clear that, as the owner of the group, he thinks the story at the start of this thread doesn't belong here. That is basically what wrestlejock646 said that started this particular flame thread. In the end, he was right. Since the owner of the forum believes this story is inappropriate, that should be a pretty good metric to begin to formulate what is and is not appropriate.

The penultimate solution is to respect the purpose of this group, and not try to force changes that are against its purpose or the expectations of its participants.

Peace.