Bulk Up vs Lose Weight

[Alumian]

Hi guys,
I be needing a bit of assistance here, I'm pretty durp on this subject. I'm looking at losing weight, but at the same time, pack on muscle. What do you guys think is the most efficient way to achieve this?
I've heard that just going straight for a muscle building plan kind of works against itself in terms of losing weight in the sense that to lose weight you eat less where as to gain muscle you eat more, correct me if I've heard wrong, but at the same time, larger muscles = greater energy consumption = more fat burned... right?
Do you think it would be more efficient to go for a weight loss plan then start muscle building?
In either case, I would really like to lose a large amount of weight pretty fast. Could anyone make any suggestions regarding diet, training regimes... anything really for either plan?
Normally I would go ahead research this on google, but honestly I would like suggestions from the horse's mouth so to speak. I want to know what actually works, not just speculation.

[Alumian]

Also, forgot to mention, wasn't sure if this was more relevant in the Diet & Nutrition forum, or Training forum. Just clarifying.

[Aielyn]

It's most definitely a matter of Diet and Nutrition. While there are modifications one can make to their training based on whether bulking or cutting (as the bodybuilding community terms the process of fat loss), nutrition is the key.

And whether you should start by bulking up or cutting down depends on where you are at the moment. If you're grossly overweight due to fat, for instance, you're probably best off starting with cutting. But more generally, unless you're already well-built and not particularly fat, there's no reason why you can't achieve both aims at once, at least at first; the question is, which one should get priority?

Why does it depend so much on it all? Because more muscle means a faster metabolism which means easier fat loss... but more fat means higher estrogen levels which means more difficulty putting on muscle mass. So in the end, they work in conjunction with each other, but making a suitable choice of approach can impact the speed of improvement.

A smart approach to it is to start off by focusing on simply improving your diet, and then working out with a blend of resistance training (that is, with weights) and cardio. If there are significant flaws in your diet, simply fixing those can simultaneously help you to put on muscle and reduce fat levels, in conjunction with simple exercise approaches.

Since you speak of losing "a large amount of weight pretty fast", I'm going to guess that you're fairly overweight, or at least chubby. So my first tip is "don't expect it to be really fast, it's a long process". Unless you're well into the obese range, it's generally unhealthy to lose more than about a kilogram or so per week - much more than that, and your body starts to interpret it as a famine situation, and slows the metabolism down to reduce its food requirements.

A few good starting points are these:

1. Stop drinking soft drinks (I'm so glad you're also an aussie, no need to translate terms like that into American or anything), or at least dramatically reduce consumption of them. They're empty calories, and are one of the biggest contributors to obesity. Also cut back on alcohol if you drink more than occasionally. Don't drink a lot of fruit juice, either - if you want fruity flavours, eat a fruit, you'll get more fibre and less sugar that way. If you must have sweetened drinks, try a few squirts of lemon and lime juices in soda water. Drink a lot more water - if you're not drinking a good 1.5 L of actual water each day, you're probably not drinking enough (note: the 2L of water advice is a myth - any water-based drink will do for that 2L requirement... but drinking regular water is better for you)

2. Cut back on the snack foods, both sweet and savoury. Don't try to completely cut them out, as you'll just find yourself craving them. If you must snack, go for fruits, vegetables, or raw or roasted (not heavily salted) nuts. If you find yourself feeling hungry and it isn't meal time, try drinking some water first (a cup or so is fine), and wait about 10 minutes to see if it satisfies you. Thirst often masquerades as hunger.

3. Eat smaller meals (not snack foods) more frequently. General advice is that you should be eating 5-6 meals a day, with each meal being maybe half of the size of what you're probably used to eating at lunch, probably a little less than that. In meals, try to cut back on simpler and processed carbohydrates (white rice, most noodles, potatoes, white bread, pastries, etc), and increase the complex carbs (brown rice, most fruits and vegetables (raw or steamed), wholemeal bread, nuts, beans, legumes, etc).

4. Don't be overzealous about cutting out dietary fat. It's an important part of your diet, and many nutrients, including a variety of vitamins, are fat-soluble, meaning that you'll only get them from foods with a decent amount of fat (personally, I advocate especially applying this to milk - most of the best nutrients in milk are fat-soluble - but others will advise you differently, so make up your own mind on that one). Just be sensible about the form and the amount. If you want to build more muscle, increasing protein will help, but don't overdo it - if you're just starting out, taking huge amounts of protein will only end with most of it converted into fat or flushed out of the system.

As for exercise, there are three factors to consider. First is the nature of the workout routine. Second is the frequency, and third is the focus of it.

If three days a week of gym workouts sounds up your alley, and you'd like to build strength quickly with good form, look here - it's supposed to be a very good approach to working out if you're fairly new to it. As it notes, do cardio and ab work on the other days. To get started, a good form of cardio is the simple outdoor walk - put on a decent pair of comfortable walking shoes, and take a nice long walk (minimum half an hour) at a decent pace that you can maintain. You want to raise your heartrate, but not so much that you're out of breath or feel like your heart is racing - your aim, if you're 20-30 years old, is a heart rate in the vicinity of 140 beats per minute, if you want to burn fat (much higher, and you start to stress the cardiovascular system, making it more of a cardiovascular fitness exercise than a fat loss exercise).

Whether you decide to follow a plan like that one or not, make sure you read up extensively on various exercises, how to perform them correctly, and what muscles they work. It is essential that you learn good form early and keep your muscles balanced, to maximise progress (bad form or muscle imbalances will result in slower development at best, and injuries that prevent training for weeks or months much more often).

Choosing a training program is a matter of personal preference and experimentation - different approaches work for different people. But if you want more specific advice, you'll need to give more information on things like your current stats, what previous experience you have, your overall goals (not "lose weight quickly", but the long term goal), etc.

[Alumian]

@Aielyn:
Thanks so much for the great response! To fill in the blanks a little bit, I'm 20 years old (this year) and, my deep dark secret, I weigh in the 125-130kg range. It makes me slightly more comfortable when I hear people say that my weight is in proportion to my height, but I still think I'm rather overweight.
My long term goal is definitely to, well, I don't know who to describe it really, just get built to be honest lol. Not like, for competition or anything, just for image I suppose.

[Alumian]

In terms of experience, I used to work out, but then I kinda lost all motivation to go to the gym, so then I slacked off for quite some time, haven't been to the gym in like, a month, more than that probably.
When I did go to the gym I wouldn't even say I was all that experienced, I went for about 1-2 months in total to be honest. I did mostly machine stuff.
In terms of stats, what kind of things would you be looking for? Haven't really done any of these things before lol.

[Aielyn]

Originally Posted by Alumian

@Aielyn:
Thanks so much for the great response! To fill in the blanks a little bit, I'm 20 years old (this year) and, my deep dark secret, I weigh in the 125-130kg range. It makes me slightly more comfortable when I hear people say that my weight is in proportion to my height, but I still think I'm rather overweight.
My long term goal is definitely to, well, I don't know who to describe it really, just get built to be honest lol. Not like, for competition or anything, just for image I suppose.

For long term goal, it'll help if you can say the type of body you're after. Do you want to look big and strong (like a wrestler or strongman)? Do you want to look lean (like most athletes)? Do you want to look cut and muscular (like a bodybuilder)?

Originally Posted by Alumian

In terms of experience, I used to work out, but then I kinda lost all motivation to go to the gym, so then I slacked off for quite some time, haven't been to the gym in like, a month, more than that probably.
When I did go to the gym I wouldn't even say I was all that experienced, I went for about 1-2 months in total to be honest. I did mostly machine stuff.
In terms of stats, what kind of things would you be looking for? Haven't really done any of these things before lol.

For stats, you've answered two of the basics - age and weight. How tall are you? How big are your arms? Waist? Chest? Things like that.

As for a bit more advice based on what you've said so far, my biggest advice would be "don't use machines". This isn't a hard-and-fast rule, there are situations where machine use is fine, but the more your movements are restricted, the less effective the workout, meaning that you should only be using machines for targetted exercises... and right now, you're not ready to target specific parts of muscles.

Prefer to use barbells and dumbbells, as well as cables and bodyweight. And so far, it sounds like the workout plan I linked to would be well-suited to you.

[Alumian]

I'm really looking for cut and muscular to be honest. For my height, I'm 6 foot, 5 inches. I'll be able to provide measurements for arms, chest and waist in a bit, I need to go out for now, but I'll be home in a couple of hours.

[Alumian]

Alrighty,
Chest: 119cm
Waist: 117cm
Arms: 36cm

Need any others?

[Alumian]

Waist: 117cm

Sorry, that was actually hips >.>

Waist is actually 108cm.

[Alumian]

Right Calf: 46cm
Left Calf: 46cm

Right Thigh: 60cm
Left Thigh: 60cm

[Aielyn]

Well, sounds like you don't carry the weight too badly. And if you're wanting cut and muscular - that is, the bodybuilder shape - then my instinct would be to suggest that you focus on muscle growth in terms of training, but get serious on really fixing your diet up.

If you were wanting big and strong, I'd have suggested simply cleaning up your diet, and focusing on strength in terms of training and muscle gain in terms of diet. If you were wanting the lean athlete's body, I'd have pushed you towards serious fat loss and cardio training first.

I linked to a training program that is supposed to work quite well. That one is definitely angled more towards bodybuilders, and it should establish good form and good routine. It's worth getting feedback from others, but I'd definitely recommend going for that program.

Beyond the dietary advice I've already given, here's some tips I'd suggest towards the bodybuilding lifestyle - first, look carefully at what you eat/drink around the time of your workouts. Pre-workout and post-workout are very important if you want to maximise muscle growth and workout effectiveness. And given your body shape, muscle growth is probably the better thing to aim for early on. Second, read up on the bulk/cut cycle, and how you should balance your dietary fat/carbs/proteins in each phase of the cycle. Early on, you'll want to maintain a more midrange path that allows both to happen while you're new to it all, but it's worth knowing about it.

It may sound a little counterintuitive, but you may actually need to eat a little more, in total, than you normally do, if you want to lose weight and head towards a bodybuilder's shape. It won't be the fastest way to lose fat, but it'll be quicker on your path to your real goal in the long run, in my opinion.

One big caution is that you need to make sure you pay attention to your legs. Muscle balance is key if you want that cut-and-muscular look, and leg training causes release of various hormones that help the building of muscle (in terms of size) throughout the body. Many bodybuilders actually neglect their legs, and they get that absurd look that most people find funny, with broad shoulders, huge arms, thick chest... and then stick legs (nothing below the waist).

But I think I've said more than my two cents. I'm sure there are others who have good advice for you, too. I'm not an expert, after all.

[Alumian]

Thanks a lot for your help, I'll get started on setting out that diet and looking into bulking and cut cycles.
Regardless of whether or not you're an expert, you still know a very respectable amount about this in my opinion
Needless to say, I've already +1 your rep!

Thanks again