So Long, Farewell, Aufwiedersehn...

[arpeejay]

I have come to the conclusion that my disagreement with the management over the "no teenagers" policy is an irreconcilable difference, and, with that in mind, I will refrain from additional contributions to the Forum. After 11 years, I no longer feel welcome here.

In the meantime, I have some clean up work to do. It's time to move my stories to more agreeable grounds. Ditto, I don't see much point in leaving up my previously posted comments, so I'll be removing them. Of course, there's a bunch of both, so it will take a while to get everything sorted out.

In the meantime, you can find me at:

http://www.facebook.com/arpeejay

Or on Tumblr:

http://arpeejay.tumblr.com

http://xcomp.tumblr.com

http://furonmuscle.tumblr.com

All the best...

Richard

[Catchit]

Please. I'm not gonna try and change your mind with regards to leaving, or even deleting your stories, I'm sure many will do that for me. What I am going to say is that you have well over 4000 comments in various places around this forum. To remove them is almost pointless and will destroy hundreds of threads filled with your contributions, spoil countless conversations, and leave this place looking like a swiss cheese with 4000 big-ass holes in.

[arpeejay]

Not to worry: The Forum retains only the most recent 500 comments. You'll manage!

-- rpj

[Mdlftr]

Wow, Arpeejay,

I'm suspecting there is more than a mere "disagreement" here to motivate such a strong reaction.

The only other two people I remember from this forum who removed all their stories were rather unique: one guy died and the other sold his stories for money!

It will be a shame to see you go. That big ole' lunk "Roger" aka "Everyman" in your words, made an impression!

I also really, really liked your time travel series where the protagonist kept making in to crucial points in history before getting killed.

I really respected the fact that you acknowledged the aging process on your own body and yet you were still committed to working out, building up, and being the best "you" you could be. As a contemporary, I have to say how much I appreciated that. The mid-50s don't get a lot of press as being major "stud muffin" years, but you certainly gave it the old college try.

You will be missed.

Best, and see you around the World Wide Web,

Mdlftr - your straight brother from another mother.

[raven79]

Wow Richard! If you leave, it will leave a HUGE gap. You are the most respected guy on here. I hope you change your mind because you have been here from the beginning.

Okay I read it.....I don't think flexodus meant any harm. He is obviously quite busy and can't keep up with everything all the time. I know you have a different opinion than him and I respect that. I hope we can talk again sometime.

[Xyggurat]

I'm sincerely sorry you feel that you have to leave. I thought the forum rules on underage erotica were made clear some time back. I'm relieved that they are being enforced, but sad that involves losing a writer of your talent.

Obviously, the issue of teenagers being sexualized and featured in stories meant for erotic enjoyment is a sensitive one around these parts. I've been pretty outspoken in not only my distaste for such content, but for the potential danger that said content engenders when posted here on a members-only forum.

I always feel compelled to ask ardent defenders of stories featuring underage teenagers:

1) Would the quality of stories posted here be in any way compromised if the characters were all 18 or over?

2) If not, why not? What is it about the boys being under the age of legal consent (or sometimes, even prepubescent) that is essential to these stories?

Ephebophilia and pedophilia are toxic subjects in the modern world, for obvious reasons. What is posted here reflects on everyone who visits this forum, whether we like said content or not. In an age of decreasing freedom and increased surveillance on the Internet, people posting underage stories on this forum are unwittingly painting all others as participants in their fantasies, knowing that those fantasies have negative social connotations, and sometimes serious legal consequences.

I hope you understand that those of us who want underage stories out of this forum aren't saying that the quality is bad; aren't saying that you are bad; aren't saying that you should go. Speaking for myself, I just don't want stories that sexualize minors to bring undue scrutiny down on the heads of those who do not enjoy that particular social taboo.

I'm sad that you feel that not being able to engage in that particular interest here means that you must take your (textual) ball and head on down that dusty trail. You are a truly talented and prolific writer and I wish you the absolute best.

-X-

[fleXodus]

Xyggurat -- This and your previous posts about this topic have perfectly encapsulated my own concerns. Having been pulled in many different directions for a while now, I would just prefer to err on the side of caution. I'm disappointed to see Richard go, but from what he said in the previous thread he does not want to associate with people "skulking in the shadows." While I disagree with his characterization (this is a site where most members do post anonymously, after all), I'm saddened that this compelled him to leave this site entirely.

This site has always been intended as a source of entertainment. I hope that is the case for most people here. But if it becomes a source of potential trouble, that dynamic fundamentally shifts, and changes need to be made. Richard was one of the first members of this forum, and I'm sad that he has chosen to leave.

Originally Posted by Xyggurat

I'm sincerely sorry you feel that you have to leave. I thought the forum rules on underage erotica were made clear some time back. I'm relieved that they are being enforced, but sad that involves losing a writer of your talent.

Obviously, the issue of teenagers being sexualized and featured in stories meant for erotic enjoyment is a sensitive one around these parts. I've been pretty outspoken in not only my distaste for such content, but for the potential danger that said content engenders when posted here on a members-only forum.

I always feel compelled to ask ardent defenders of stories featuring underage teenagers:

1) Would the quality of stories posted here be in any way compromised if the characters were all 18 or over?

2) If not, why not? What is it about the boys being under the age of legal consent (or sometimes, even prepubescent) that is essential to these stories?

Ephebophilia and pedophilia are toxic subjects in the modern world, for obvious reasons. What is posted here reflects on everyone who visits this forum, whether we like said content or not. In an age of decreasing freedom and increased surveillance on the Internet, people posting underage stories on this forum are unwittingly painting all others as participants in their fantasies, knowing that those fantasies have negative social connotations, and sometimes serious legal consequences.

I hope you understand that those of us who want underage stories out of this forum aren't saying that the quality is bad; aren't saying that you are bad; aren't saying that you should go. Speaking for myself, I just don't want stories that sexualize minors to bring undue scrutiny down on the heads of those who do not enjoy that particular social taboo.

I'm sad that you feel that not being able to engage in that particular interest here means that you must take your (textual) ball and head on down that dusty trail. You are a truly talented and prolific writer and I wish you the absolute best.

-X-

[LeatherGryphon]

I'll miss Arpeejay. He was the first and kindest commentator for my early stories and images posted here. While my three pitiful stories, and my first pathetic illustrations from "Transformation of Rune" are now lost in the mists of time, Arpeejay had encouraging comments about them that I appreciated very much.

I've given up trying to write but I still keep my hand in illustration. I always portray my youngest subjects as young adults of legal age, either by stature or facial hair. Unfortunately some of the stories by other authors that I've depicted scenes from, had implied or stated younger ages, but I didn't read them that way. Nor do I depict them that way. I hesitated using them as a basis for my illustrations but I found the muscle growth potential outweighing the literal age so I draw them my way, as young adults.

I view adult on child and adult on teen sex as selfish manipulation of innocence. But by 19 or 20 the hormones are raging and a young man of that age is ripe for these muscle growth stories and illustrations.

[falseyedee]

Richard, I am sorry to see you go and will miss your participation and comments immensely. But I understand your decision. This forum has changed over the years and it isn't the same place it was 11 years ago. Then again, neither is the real world, so I try to cope with the changes.

While I don't have problems with stories involving older teens, stories with younger teens and adolescents don't interest me. So I don't read them. People seem to think the very existence of these stories is a threat. There are days when I see the vitriol and hate being spewed at people whose stories are only slightly out of the norm for this forum, and think the whole lot of them should be banned for their poor manners alone.

I used to check in here several times a day. Now I check in several times a week. I can easily see a day when I'm only checking in once a month or so. I find that the preponderance of images and videos in lieu of written stories is incredibly boring to me. It also seems that the quality and variety of stories has never been so low. In that regard, your participation will be greatly missed.

I think the combination of generational differences and legalistic paranoia is making it more difficult for those of us of a certain age to feel welcomed here.

Farewell, Richard, and please feel free to contact me through FB. I think you follow me there.

Cheers,

[Corwin]

This is an unfortunate thread, and I've stated my opinions before, but let me answer a couple things here:

Originally Posted by Xyggurat

I always feel compelled to ask ardent defenders of stories featuring underage teenagers:

1) Would the quality of stories posted here be in any way compromised if the characters were all 18 or over?

2) If not, why not? What is it about the boys being under the age of legal consent (or sometimes, even prepubescent) that is essential to these stories?

Puberty. The time when hormones kick in and male sexual characteristics evolve. This doesn't happen post 18.

Second point -- THESE ARE NOT REAL PEOPLE! These are fictional characters. Fictional characters cannot consent to anything! because THEY DO NOT EXIST except in the story. Bringing age of consent into this is nothing but a red herring.

Originally Posted by Xyggurat

Ephebophilia and pedophilia are toxic subjects in the modern world, for obvious reasons.

Actually, there is nothing "obvious" about it, but even if I do buy your argument that fictional characters may or may not give consent , where does that lead? Should rape stories be banned too -- no consent there. How about forced growth stories? What about age regression stories where someone's physical age regresses to puberty? Exactly where does your consent argument lead?

You used two mighty big words above that are loaded with social stigma. Do you really believe that the people here who read such stories have "primary or exclusive adult sexual interest in mid-to-late adolescents or children"? In your zealousness to characterize fiction as abomination, you also vilify members of this forum who may like a good story -- questioning their sexual proclivities in the most vile of ways.

This Lolita-esque witch hunt saddens me. But then, the prudes censor Lolita too.

[Corwin]

Supreme Court of the United States -- 2002

Summary: Congress passed a law that prohibited "any visual depiction, including any photograph, film, video, picture, or computer or computer-generated image or picture" that "is, or appears to be, of a minor engaging in sexually explicit conduct." The Court threw out this law, and some of what they write is telling for this argument...

The Court concluded that the "CPPA prohibits speech despite its serious literary, artistic, political, or scientific value." In particular, it prohibits the visual depiction of teenagers engaged in sexual activity, a "fact of modern society and has been a theme in art and literature throughout the ages." Such depictions include performances of Romeo and Juliet, by William Shakespeare; the 1996 film William Shakespeare's Romeo + Juliet, directed by Baz Luhrmann; and the Academy Award winning movies Traffic and American Beauty. "If these films, or hundreds of others of lesser note that explore those subjects, contain a single graphic depiction of sexual activity within the statutory definition, the possessor of the film would be subject to severe punishment without inquiry into the work's redeeming value. This is inconsistent with an essential First Amendment rule: The artistic merit of a work does not depend on the presence of a single explicit scene."

Thus, the CPPA prohibited speech for a different reason than anti-child pornography laws. Laws prohibiting the distribution and possession of child pornography ban speech because of the manner in which it is produced, regardless of its serious literary or artistic value. But speech prohibited by the CPPA "records no crime and creates no victims by its production." Child pornography is not necessarily without value, but it is illegal BECAUSE OF THE HARM that making and distributing it necessarily INFLICTS UPON CHILDREN.

---

[Ragetiger]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_re...ld_pornography

"Some nations such as Canada and Australia have laws banning cartoon, manga or written child pornography and others require ISPs to monitor internet traffic to detect it."

So it does not matter if it is fantasy there are laws to prevent it. It's like some places refusing to have even the artwork of original creation being posted if it shows a child, consent or not. Written works are also falling into this, though it's more "obscene" than anything.

Regardless, there was a policy in place. Hate so see a long time member of the forum leaving, but that's his choice to make.


On a more personal matter, when I did read a story like this, I instantly stop reading and exit out of it, it's just not my cup of tea. If I want muscle growth stories it needs to have adults in it.

[Corwin]

Originally Posted by Ragetiger

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_re...ld_pornography

"Some nations such as Canada and Australia have laws banning cartoon, manga or written child pornography and others require ISPs to monitor internet traffic to detect it."

This site is hosted in the United States. If certain jurisdictions wish to block it, that is their right.

And as for the policy, I'd like to know its boundaries... if it is consent based, what about rape stories. if it is age based, are age regression stories allowed? If someone wanted to translate Romeo and Juliet into a muscle growth story, do we need to change the Shakespearean quote that he "hath not seen the change of fourteen years." I think it is only fair to question an arbitrary policy's limits.

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[Trontastic]

Originally Posted by Corwin

This site is hosted in the United States. If certain jurisdictions wish to block it, that is their right.

Not just block the site, but actively prosecute those of us in those jurisdictions for "possession" of child pornography. Not all of us want to run that risk. Registered in the U.S. or no, this is an international community, with potential international consequences.

[Corwin]

Originally Posted by Trontastic

Not just block the site, but actively prosecute those of us in those jurisdictions for "possession" of child pornography. Not all of us want to run that risk. Registered in the U.S. or no, this is an international community, with potential international consequences.

New to the internet?

[icywolfy]

Well, it's true.

CANADA:
Anyone visiting from Canada can get 5 years imprisonment for browsing this site; simply because it contains written sexualised stories of underaged individuals. Anime, Manga, and Fan-fiction have all been successfully prosecuted.
;
US:
In 2005, the U.S. Department of Justice formed the Obscenity Prosecution Task Force in a push to prosecute obscenity cases. Red Rose Stories (www.red-rose-stories.com, now defunct), a site dedicated to text-only fantasy stories, became one of many sites targeted by the FBI for shutdown. The government alleged that Red Rose Stories contained depictions of child rape. The publisher pled guilty. Other websites such as BeautyBound.com have closed themselves down despite not being targeted, due to these risks and legislative burdens.

...
It's a huge risk, and you can get Jail time; not under pornography laws, but under federal and state obscenity laws.

[Bull]

I find these rules about what is and is not acceptable in fantasy idiotic. Who does it hurt? The concerns about being shut down because of such content are ridiculous. There are countless sites online where every kind of fantasy imaginable is portrayed, with no issues. I myself stopped contributing stories long ago because I have no desire to cut my dreams according to someone else's pattern. With regard to muscle growth fantasy particularly, the desire for muscle growth is such a profoundly adolescent phenomenon that to eliminate teen characters from it is to cut the very heart and soul out of it. You might as well try to write about gardening without mentioning soil.

If this change in venues leads to a less puritanical, restrictive creative environment, I am all for it.

[Xyggurat]

Originally Posted by Corwin

Actually, there is nothing "obvious" about it, but even if I do buy your argument that fictional characters may or may not give consent , where does that lead? Should rape stories be banned too -- no consent there. How about forced growth stories? What about age regression stories where someone's physical age regresses to puberty? Exactly where does your consent argument lead?

You used two mighty big words above that are loaded with social stigma. Do you really believe that the people here who read such stories have "primary or exclusive adult sexual interest in mid-to-late adolescents or children"? In your zealousness to characterize fiction as abomination, you also vilify members of this forum who may like a good story -- questioning their sexual proclivities in the most vile of ways.

This Lolita-esque witch hunt saddens me. But then, the prudes censor Lolita too.

Look, if you can't get why ephebophilia and pedophilia are toxic subjects when put into actual practice, we really don't have any common ground to stand on. If you just don't get why they're not acceptable here, I think I was pretty clear about that.

We stand in a shifting legal landscape online. Browsing histories are tapped and monitored regularly, and possession of or association with anything resembling child pornography has proven potential to put a person in a lot of hot water. Numerous people on this forum do not want to be associated with anything that might set off such red flags, especially when we don't enjoy underage lit-porn ourselves.

This isn't about censorship so much as it is about safety. You can quote SCOTUS if you want, but the practice of the law is different from the ideal world you seem to live in. I'm not really up for risking my privacy and lifestyle just so a few people can get off to stories about children and young teens.

-X-

[raven79]

Can we all just admit that this subject is the reason why the forum is shutting down in the first place?