Unequal relationships - bad idea?

[Addamm]

I figured this would be more relevant to a forum like this since you're all more about muscle.

Basically, what do you think about the feasibility of unequal relationships between couples?

I guess the inequality could be in anything, but in this case, it's about physiques.

I'm dating this guy. Both of us are bodybuilders and into muscle. But he's quite a lot bigger than me, and has much better genetics, so this size distance is only going to keep growing.

The thing is, since he's bigger, I can't help thinking that the moment he meets someone better (ie bigger), he'll just move on. And I can't really work up an interest in him while I'm thinking that this is the case, like I'm avoiding getting attached or interested out of fear, I guess. And yet objectively, I think this guy would be a walking muscle fantasy to most of us.

I'm not saying the guy is totally superficial, and I know that he appreciates other qualities of mine that he is 'less equal' than myself in, and I like him for a lot of reasons other than his looks. But the realist in me recognises that guys are very driven by physical attributes most of all, and it doesn't matter how great I am as a person when lust strikes.

So I'm contemplating the idea of breaking up with him now before I get myself any more involved. Is that just childish/cowardly, or do others think that these kind of unequal relationships just can't work? How would you deal with it? As you can guess, I'm a bit clueless with relationships lol.

[BIGJOEY]

first since your dating then it must not be a problem with him. Have a feeling that you may have built up this whole thing in your head. if he didnt want to date you then he wouldn't . how about you explain some of your fears to him and see what he says before you do something stupid and ruin a good thing. Hell i wish i had your problem

[arpeejay]

I think Joey has hit the nail on the head: "You...have built up this whole thing in your head."

A couple of things:

All relationships are inherently unequal. Even if you're exactly the same gender, exactly the same age, exactly the same size, exactly the same level of education / intelligence / income / social standing, etc., there is still going to be some aspect where he has more or you have more.

You live with it, you appreciate your differences, and you pat yourself on the back that such a hot / smart / wealthy / young / whatever-makes-your-heart-go-zing! guy rilly, rilly likes you.

You don't obsess about your alleged inferiority (think Bette Davis, the "older woman" to Gary Merrill's "younger man" in "All About Eve") without seriously undermining the relationship.

Any relationship is a leap of faith. I hope you have the confidence in yourself that allows you to make that leap. When I was first coming out a very wise friend gifted me with the following saying, one that I've taken to heart ever since:

Accept what is offered...

Which I interpret to mean: Appreciate your relationships for what they are, don't measure them against some false ideal, don't reject them for what they are not, don't rush into them for what they might be...

Hope this helps!

Richard

who adds, as always, "Pix, dammit, pix!"

[Spooky]

I am in an "unequal" relationship as you called it, but I never conceived of it as such until my boyfriend, who is on this forum, let me know that it was "unequal".

It seems that much of the problems you are having are coming from insecurities about yourself, and you are only seeing one facet of it: that he is larger than you and you feel that you aren't just doing it for him.

My boyfriend of over a year kindly let me know that he wasn't attracted to my body a couple of months ago. And, so, I know what you are feeling. It threw me for a loop.... er, a roller coaster that I am just now coming to the end of, that opened up questions in myself not only about our history together, but also about body image problems that I have _never_ experienced before in my life. And, jealousy. So much jealousy, unbearable jealousy and feelings of inferiority and inadequacy that really took me somewhere else for a month or so.

However, we're working through it because we have a solid basis of being really close to each other and understanding each other and love which is a lot deeper than I've seen in most couples in my life. And, so, the problem has diminished (in my mind, at least) because we've been able to talk about things and rest upon that love that we have for each other, the love that is irrespective of body type.

So, what I am saying is that if you have a good basis with him, real, sincere, raw love-connection than you should open up to him, talk to him about it, even if you find it utterly embarrassing. It will allow you to deal not only with your insecurities out in the open by coming to terms with them, but it will also let you assess if this relationship is really something that means something, or if you just want a hot body to poke every night.

So, no one can tell you what to do, but at least I can help by helping you think and work through something. The rest is up to you.

[Spooky]

Originally Posted by Addamm

Basically, what do you think about the feasibility of unequal relationships between couples?

I guess the inequality could be in anything, but in this case, it's about physiques.

Re-reading your quote, this is exactly what I keep pointing out about many people on this forum (despite aggravating many people while doing it).

You feel that you are in an inherently unequal relationship because of the fact that your boyfriend is larger than you are. You are attaching your self -worth and value to your body, as many people on this forum have (which is also the reason why many on this forum have eroticized their insecurities into an MMG fetish, through a process of cathexis: or the internalization and sexualization of something-which-cannot-be-attained).

And so your issues of self-worth are now being aggravated so much that you start to almost foreclose or blockout different parts of the relationship that might just be fine, because this is the background of your understanding of the relationship. Because what is "inequality" anyway? Why express a relationship as being unequal in the first place? What allows you to express that fact that you have different bodies as unequal? For the same reason that a fat couple, where one is thinner than the other, would claim the other thinner person is "better than them," and that they are in an unequal relationship. Namely, it is the schedule of self-worth that you have established, where the bigger you are the more worthing or deserving or higher-expectations you have.

So, to go back to my first post and to echo the suggestions of the other people: it's in your head. Except, the thing that I hold, though, is that, even though all this is in your head, it has very real effects which can deeply affect something as simple as having a carefree relationship with someone who is slightly bigger than you, or as you would say, an "unequal relationship".

So, I definitely appreciate and understand what you are going through, as the feelings you are having can taint even the most innocent, intimate, or gregarious of moments with darker feelings. I still think the best thing to do, if you have a sound basis with him, is to express what you are feeling or just tell him to get your thoughts out of your head, get some feedback, and let them settle out.

[Geek2Jock]

I have to agree with Spooky, I think the unequal relationship perception is more a factor of your own insecurities and most likely less about an actual risk or potential rift in the relationship. True we are physically attracted beings, but a real relationship should (relatively) quickly move beyond that aspect into a more solid foundation of emotional and psychological compatibilities and distinctions that will forge a much stronger bond between the two of you than the mere physical aspect can define. So I would challenge you to sit down, have a serious heart-to-heart conversation and explain your own fears and feelings and let him do the same. The important thing in my experience is that you both know where the other stands. And I can tell you from personal experience, once the relationship bonding takes place, that person actually begins to define your ideal instead of the other way around, as it is in many fly-by-night relationships (actually more like one-night/weekend flings).

[Eager Muscle]

Threads like these and the wonderful responses I've been reading truly foster the feeling of community and make me proud to be a member.

[Spooky]

Originally Posted by Geek2Jock

And I can tell you from personal experience, once the relationship bonding takes place, that person actually begins to define your ideal instead of the other way around...

Just as an aside to the discussion : can I please say what a beautiful aspect of relationships that that is? Where the person you fall in love with actually starts to become your ideal?

My boyfriend is not someone who fits my "type"... (whatever that is supposed to mean). But now that "type" seems so stale to me, so old and worn out, because my boyfriend has matched me and fitted me in ways that I had never imagined before. And now, if someone asks me what my "type" is, it is a lot different than it used to be and has started to resemble him. And, I'm glad I nabbed him... he's a pretty unique guy that has left a pretty unique impression on my heart.

I'm actually glad that he didn't fit my type.... the relationship would just be so normal, static, and flat. I'm glad, because there was really a lot of exploration and getting-to-know-one-another going on that has really, I think, made us quite close.

*Sigh* This has got me missing him now. He's Euro, I'm American... we've got still just a handful of months left until we get to be together again, finally.

[Addamm]

What can I say... Thanks for all the replies! I'd like to dignify everyone with an individual reply, but I think you've all basically made the same point, and I think you're all probably right. The problem is my own insecurities and inferiority complex, and my lack of self-esteem/worth.

I suppose the situation is a bit more complex than I made out, because this guy has never dated anyone else before. It gives me considerably less confidence knowing that he has no other relationship to compare ours to. And first-timers are usually keen to get about and experience new things with new people.

Despite all this, I'm still not sure I can overcome the feeling that our relationship is too unequal, even if most of that comes from me. Though even he did tell me I should be heavier than him (because I'm taller).

Spooky: nice to hear that you've overcome some of the problems you've had. I would like to think I can achieve the same thing. Eventually.

[AS2000]

Look at it this way: would you really want to date a clone of yourself? A perfect mirror image from an alternate universe? Sure, there'd be a certain level of comfort - you'd know everything about your partner. But that would be boring, ultimately; the differences are what make things interesting. Compatible does not mean identical.

My bf and I are not the same. Our bodies aren't the same. Our professions aren't the same. Our life histories aren't the same. We have some areas of commonality, for sure. But there are a lot of places where we're actually quite different. And that's a never ending source of fascination. (Occasional spots of trouble too, lol, but that usually gets worked out.)

Addamm, I'm guessing your bf likes you for more than just your body (which doesn't sound like a bad body, from what I read.) And there's no reason you can't work on it to keep improving it, as many of us are trying to do. ;)

Finally, I think relationships should fundamentally be "equal", meaning between partners who respect each other. But in this case, equal does not mean the same. People who are very different can have different strengths and weaknesses that they bring to the relationship. As long as they get along, and love and respect each other, everything's good. :)

[BigLittleTim]

I'm a LARGE MUSCULAR guy and I'M attracted to a wide variety of physical "types". I've had unbelievably amazing physical connections with the complete spectrum of male physiques; shredded muscle guys with no body fat; fat ex-jocks with huge guts; skinny boys half my size; Rugby players; art geeks; 60 year old "pappys" and 18 year old "preppies"; white, black, chinese, and esquimeaux!

Most of your insecurites may be of your own creation. How many times I've been talking to a trick, (in that half hour after sex where you realize this complete stranger knows all the same people you do and lives exactly the same sort of life) and heard him say: "I've seen you around for years at the gym but always figured you only liked other big guys."

Also, sometimes a guy might enjoy physical "inequality" with his partner. I weigh 280 pounds and have a 54" chest. My boyfriend weighs 130 pounds with a 34" chest. I can assure you the sex is AMAZING for both of us.

Cheers,

BigLittleTim

[Addamm]

Thanks for the comments guys.

The thing is, my boyfriend fantasises about being the smaller guy, and his range of 'types' is not very extensive. Which makes it hard since he's almost your weight Tim and ripped to the bone, and that's 40lbs more than myself, and I've recently been training him up and sorting out his diet/drugs, etc, which is merely widening the gap (he's grown 14lbs in 2 months)

I managed to get myself to talk about this a little with him, rather than do the drama thing and just break-up without telling him why, but it's very hard exposing your insecurities and perceived failings to another person, so I kind of discussed things tangentially.

I can only take him at his word when he says he likes me and is proud of me, but knowing he likes guys to be bigger, and having only ever heard one direct compliment (he likes my eyes), I'm not filled to the brim with confidence.

I suppose this just sounds kind of whiny and pointless, because in my eyes we will always be unequal, no matter how he sees things. Which is odd because it would never occur to me to think of anyone else as 'less equal' just because they're smaller than me, or less smart, or less attractive etc.

Aagh. Life's so much simpler when I'm single!

[Username3]

I don't think that you should break up with the guy, considering that you've just built all of this up in your head.

It also depends in what terms you mean by "unequal".

[Addamm]

Well, I decided to take a pre-emptive strike and broke up with him in the end. I think it was for the best. I think that when someone sees himself as being worth less than the other person in the relationship, it's just unworkable.

I did try telling myself I have other qualities, but I think deep down I believe he's only looking at the physical qualities, like most gay guys do, and in that I would count as 40lbs less equal!

I'd like to pretend that I could deal with being inferior, but in reality I can't. And maybe it wouldn't have been fair for me to dump my insecurities and anxieties onto him through a relationship anyway.

I did appreciate all the advice though. It's hard to talk about these kind of issues with non-muscle oriented people, it's like I'm talking alien.

[Din]

but in the end you'd be talking about exactly the same issues that anyone in a relationship would be talking about.


at least, the insecure people in a relationship.

can i really love him as much as he loves me?
do i satisfy him as much as he satisfies me?
can i live up to his expectations?


but surely, both sides have their flaws -- that's what you'll have to work with. not something you should panic over the way you did. your relationship (if it was worthy of the name) surely did not hinge only on the physical aspect of it?

when we are insecure, we tend to blow up this one issue that we are insecure about, though. and it can spoil many a good thing. if you had just shut up and forgot about it (or better: talked and forgot about it), it would have probably worked itself out eventually.


i think you made your decision too soon, on the basis of what you've told me. but of course, i'm not where you are, and there may have been a lot more that made you want to break up.


all i can tell you is be really honest to yourself; because only if you've got your own mind in order can you be committed to another!

[Addamm]

Well, I think my action was vindicated by what he told me afterwards: that he did not find me physically attractive because I wasn't bigger than him.

For me the relationship (well, all relationships) was about much more than the physical aspects - although I did obviously find his physique attractive, I soon began to appreciate lots of other qualities. I also have a lot of hobbies and interests and I like to help people and make them feel special, and this bit was working well. But in the back of my mind I could tell he was unhappy about something, and although I talked about us not being physically equal, I could not get him to admit I didn't do it for him. But sensing someone doesn't do it for you kind of kills the romance - at least it does for me. And so that's why I felt compelled to push this thing into the open.

I suppose my lesson here was that in the gay world size rules (for so many men - the exceptions are rare). And no matter how great you are in other areas, this factor tends to dominate among a certain group. And he was one of them, and I should have just steered well clear and trusted my intuition/insecurity sooner rather than letting myself go and offering to give so much.

[Mdlftr]

Originally Posted by Addamm

I suppose my lesson here was that in the gay world size rules (for so many men - the exceptions are rare). And no matter how great you are in other areas, this factor tends to dominate among a certain group. And he was one of them, and I should have just steered well clear and trusted my intuition/insecurity sooner rather than letting myself go and offering to give so much.

Human beings are inherently social animals, and want to be in relationships. Some relationships, such as traditional male-female marriage are very structured and have great deal of social support from the group at large, since human society has a vested interest in perpetuating itself. Thus, a "traditional" marital relationship which produces offspring to perpetuate society receives a great deal of support from the society at large, since it is furthering the goals of society by permitting it to continue.

Other relationships, which are not traditional, such as co-habitation without marriage or offspring, have to support themselves on a different basis. The relationships can be based on mutual interests, mutual goals or other common interests. Because the relationship is created for purposes other the furtherance of societal goals of maintaining and continuing population, it must have other reasons for being.

What this thread illustrates are the challenges facing human beings when they seek to create relationships outside the traditional procreation norm. The need to find a common basis for community is a continuing challenge. Some communities find cohension in religious belief, some find cohension in common life experiences, some find it in chosen communities formed around an idea or a policy.

Everyone wants to "belong" or "be part of" something, so this search for a community is something that we all share, regardless of how we end up expressing it.

Mdlftr

[Addamm]

Originally Posted by Mdlftr

What this thread illustrates are the challenges facing human beings when they seek to create relationships outside the traditional procreation norm. The need to find a common basis for community is a continuing challenge. Some communities find cohension in religious belief, some find cohension in common life experiences, some find it in chosen communities formed around an idea or a policy.

Everyone wants to "belong" or "be part of" something, so this search for a community is something that we all share, regardless of how we end up expressing it.

Mdlftr

I think I understand what you are saying. It occurred to me that there was a kind of gay social 'norm' which was being enacted in our relationship: he saw himself as the 'passive' partner, and me as the 'active' one.

He envisioned himself being 'taken' and dominated by me, putting himself in a pseudo-female role with me as the 'masculine conqueror'. But the problem was that since muscle is representative of masculinity, strength, power and dominance, his much more muscular physique better symbolised the role that he was actually expecting of me. And this was why he was not really satisfied with me.

He kept talking about how, in a year's time, I would be as big as him because he would train me up (regardless of the fact that I demonstrated much more knowledge and discipline in bodybuilding - his genetics are simply superior for muscle building). This is consistent with his expectations of me, but I kept telling him how unrealistic he was being. And of course this is part of what made me realise something was not right between us.

I did suggest that it would make life easier if he simply lost 50lbs thus making me bigger by default, but I know he has his own insecurities stemming from not fitting the straight-male macho stereotype as a kid which is, I think, why he has turned himself into a kind of hyper-masculine bodybuilder in everything other than his sexual fantasies. So that suggestion was a complete no-go.

[helliot]

Originally Posted by Addamm

I suppose my lesson here was that in the gay world size rules (for so many men - the exceptions are rare).

Hmm, I don't think that's a very good lesson. What you say may hold true in the trendiest clubs or on Logo tv, but out in the real world there are a lot more average guys with reasonable expectations than there are these others. That's my experience, anyway.

[Hulk2be]

Addamm, I'm going to go against the grain here, and say that I support your decision. While the fantasy of "love conquers all" and "there's so much more to offer" are wonderful ideals to believe in, I think they fall well short of reflecting reality.

I'm reminded of something I read once regarding phobias. Suppose someone is afraid of the dark. Someone else telling that person that that's irrational and there's nothing to be afraid of doesn't help, because the fear does exist in the person's mind, and that makes it a real fear to them.

From how I understand your situation, I think the same can be applied here. Regardless as to whether your perceived inadequacy had basis in fact or not, it was a real issue in your mind, and that made it real to you. And because it was real, it was something that had to be dealt with.

And, Addamm, I personally also agree with your views of the gay world. My experience has been that its a meat market, nothing more. Its survival of the cutest/hottest, and only if a person finds another person hot enough to go to bed with will they then look at other factors being in place for a relationship.

While I don't know you, let me offer a piece of advice regarding single gay men. From what I've observed, the singles in our community tend to mope through life and moan about "if I only had a boyfriend". You, and every other single person there, is already a whole a person. You don't need another person to complete you. A special someone coming along would be a compliment, but not a neccessity. If you truly are unhappy and miserable being single, then there are issues at work deeper than any boyfriend would magically make disappear.

[hulkoutlvr]

And all Gawd's chillun' said "Amen"

I'm with you on that. Take it from a person who's been butchered more than once in the meat market. It's rough out there, and to me, very insulting at times, that I've been left or dumped for someone who was hotter. I even got dumped for a bodybuilder once, which couldn't have hit on more of my issues. But on the upside, in about 40 years his pecs, ass, and biceps will be mush, just like every other old man, and I'll still be (this is what I'm told, no bragging rights here) witty, intelligent, funny, and charming. Those of us with inner beauty will always have it, but beautiful is only for a season. So here's friendly advice to all you gorgeous buff ones. You're beautiful, and Lord knows I think you're beautiful, so enjoy it, because it doesn't last forever. Addam, your ex is the one with the issues. If he expected you to "play" a role, be it the dominant one or whatever, that's an issue. You shouldn't have to play a role to get a man, because he's not falling for you. He's falling for a persona. My advice is the same as Hulk2be's. Be happy and comfortable with yourself, who you are. That's where contentment will come from. Trust me I'm happier alone than I was with any of my exes, because I always felt like they dated me out of pity (they were way hotter than me), and I wasn't surprised when I got traded in for a buffer, less-scarred model. Now, in my mid 30's, I'm concentrating on me, who I am, and where I'm going. And I'm loving it. You will too. Cheers to you.

[Eager Muscle]

So that the buff and gorgeous among us do not take offense - wit, intelligence, humor and charm are not the exclusive provence of others!

[hulkoutlvr]

I fully concur with you. It's just, where I live, in a rural area, it's rare to find a man with the whole package (please excuse the use of that vulgar term). Most of the gay guys in my area are either the stereotypical "gym bunnies" or the 19 year old, 90 pound club twinks, and most of the focus is on outer beauty. Now I'm not Quasimoto, but I'm not George Clooney either. I'm somewhere in between, which is where I think most guys in their mid 30's are.

Through this forum, I have a bunch of really cool, witty, intelligent and gorgeous men who just happen to have big muscles. For me, that's the ultimate package, but where I'm living now, it's just not that common to find. To all of you buff and gorgeous ones out there, you know I love ya! After all, who doesn't love buff and gorgeous? However, I was considering the issue from the standpoint of someone who lost his boyfriend to a guy with an incredible body. I can understand Addam having some issues. I had them after my break up as well. I was in no way attempting to give offense to the big guys on here who have come to be my friends. And those guys know who they are.

Thanks for the reminder though, Eager. At times I'm a bit more honest than prudent, which can leave me with egg on my face.

[Stoneman]

I mean, it's kinda the trouble with being gay today, there's been a massive exodus of gay men into metropolitan areas, so everybody living anywhere else is just stranded.

[Addamm]

Well, I guess in other circumstances I'd be considered reasonaly built and good-looking. I suppose it just depends who you're comparing yourself to. I mean there's usually someone somewhere who's bigger, stronger, smarter, taller, better looking and so on. He was just too much nearer the top of the stack. His 21" arms were about 60% more volume than my 18" arms, for instance, so I could see from his perspective why I would look too puny for his tastes. I think I just need to be honest with myself and not reach too high.

But I definitely take on board the thing about being complete and happy with yourself, and anyone else just being a bonus. I try to live by that rule.

[Eager Muscle]

Thanks, Hulkoutlvr.

Addamm, your heartfelt admission in the above post was both brave and touching but makes me question why a sensitive, introspective, intelligent and reasonably built and goodlooking gay bodybuilder with 18" arms in his mid thirties is going years without physical contact. It can't entirely be geography and insecurity, can it? Could your own high standards be impeding your personal happiness?

[Addamm]

Lol, ok I edited out that 'heartfelt' bit of the last post. Sounds like I'm fishing for sympathy and going off-subject, which is not what I meant at all.

But in reply to you: well, I'm certainly open to criticism because I do like the person I'm dating to be one that I can 'connect' with, and I struggle to connect with most people. As for sex, that's not something I really care about unless I'm dating. I also don't spend a huge amount of time going out and trying to meet people, as most gay venues/environments are not ones that I enjoy spending time in - I'm not very into the gay lifestyle. But I never saw that as making me too picky or even that unusual.

Back on topic: The guys I have dated have all been quite different (tall, short, smart, not-so-smart, funny, dour etc). This was the only muscular person I've ever been with. Which was probably why I felt more insecure than usual.

[Geek2Jock]

I wouldn't let that you aren't into the gay lifestyle / gay dating scene be an obstacle; after all, I actually don't think all that many gays are, but it's the scene that gets the most attention and publicity therefore it appears to be the only scene. Also not a bar-hopper or party-goer myself, I find that if that was what I was into then I'd meet someone who was also into that... but as I'm not, why would I go there just to meet someone who is likely to actually be into that and therefore we'd already be unequally matched in terms of interests!

As for the original context of the subject thread, the physical aspect (and I think I've posted this previously in this conversation) to me is certainly important enough in the initial stages of the relationship because, let's face it, we are visually attracted to someone initially - it's the first concept we have of that person, how they look, how they act, how they carry themselves, that motivates us to make or receive the first contact. However, as the meeting progresses through however-many-stages towards and into an actual relationship (with sex or not is irrelevant) I've always found that the physical attributes which triggered the initial attraction inevitably take a back seat to the intellectual and emotional attraction of two humans bonding on a much more personal and less physical level. That very human very emotional connection makes that person so much more attractive to your psyche that the body is less a consideration.

Of course, if you both invest all that effort into building your physique for the sole purpose of attracting someone, then once you 'land' that special someone the tendency may be to let yourself go. Now that may be good or bad, good in that it reinforces the solidity of the emotional relationship but bad in that you may just become out of shape and unhealthy. Therefore, I find that my devotion to physical fitness is for my own benefit, my own motivations and to my own satisfaction. That someone who will find me physically attractive enough to make contact and letting that lead us into some relationship at a level that what about me attracted them is not what keeps us together is my long-term objective, not that I should be expected to maintain or continue to develop my physique for their benefit or pleasure. If that is the case, I would undoubtedly have the same expectation of them and really how shallow would we both have to be?

So I guess what I'm beating around the bush about is this: I suspect that you are a very attractive, very affable (no, not F-able) person who may be like most of us who are a bit insecure about ourselves and worried if we're attractive to other people. Being selective or having standards is certainly not a bad thing, but I think settling for less is a bad thing. Just be careful that you may not be substituting stats for standards and thereby missing out on someone who in all reality could be your (at least near-) perfect match!

[Eager Muscle]

Addamm - just trying to get to the bottom of this with good intentions.

So the problem isn't that you're picky but that you have difficulty connecting with people. If you're not comfortable with people, not a "people person" per se, there's no law against that. If you're okay with that, why change? Revel in your differences!

But are you okay if you want to be in a relationship and might be unable to find the right person or maintain one because of this inability or reluctance to connect? You may want to take several steps back and ask yourself whether your disconnect with people is actually a conceit. Even though it may not be in your best interests oftentimes it's easier and self-aggrandizing to be free of people by being an inpenetrable fortress, an artistic loner, or a lone wolf railing against conformity. Perhaps it's time to self-assess and self-correct; take it from one who knows!

[arpeejay]

One thing to keep in mind...

You don't have to be your partner's fantasy figure. In fact, it's rather unlikely you will be, or that he will be yours. If he wants you to be something other than you are, that's a problem. But if you assume he must want something other than you because you're not "the fantasy," that's a problem, too. Don't assume that because you're not "his type" (on the outside) that you're not his type (on the inside.)

Learning to love people for who they are also means learning to love yourself for who YOU are--and giving the other guy credit to know how to sort out his priorities with respect to looks, demeanor, intelligence, personality, etc.

xoxo

Richard

[hulkoutlvr]

Arpeejay, it's just not fair that you got wisdom, personality, and a gorgeous chest all in one package (no pun intended) and you're taken, lol. Lucky man, though. Your words were, as usual, right on target. I'm dieting once again, trying to do something with what God gave me, despite my height and love of chocolate working against me. But I keep fighting the battle, for myself and not for anyone else. I've been single now for sometime, and you know what I've found? No one can be as good to me as I can be to myself. Now, if George Clooney shows up at my door in his ER scrubs, I can't promise I won't invite him in for wine, and well, you know, lol. For the moment however, I'm pretty content with my quiet life, my playwrighting, and my singing. Mr. Right may come along someday, but if not, I'll be just fine.

Addam sounds like a catch to me. I just wish a guy like him lived in this wasteland where I reside. Loving, intelligent, witty men with 18 inch arms are rare as hen's teeth in my area. If anyone hears of any moving to Southern Illinois, please alert me.

[Uskathoth]

Originally Posted by Addamm

I suppose my lesson here was that in the gay world size rules (for so many men - the exceptions are rare).

I have not found this to be generally true. There are big guys into big guys, true. But I have known several big brute-like guys who very specifically liked smaller guys--to the point that they would only consider dating markedly smaller men. But generally in my experience people are pretty diverse in what turns them on. Some guys have specific types but most of the people I know are pretty flexible on what they find attractive.

Caveat: I think that guys without much experience with dating/sex with other men may be more prone to having a strong preference for a specific type. But that's just an impression of mine; I couldn't back that up with many specifics but my general experience makes me think it is true.

[Uskathoth]

Also, there is nothing saying you can't be an immense brute (or whatever) in bed with your partner. That would take some communication and trust but if you had a great relationship with some big guy who wanted you to, er, manhandle him in the sack, you could and that might address the "mr. big" issue. But your partner would have to be pretty honest, self-aware and sexually comfortable to address that situation and your ex doesn't sound like that so much.

[Addamm]

All these replies make me wonder which course you all took that I didn't at school! I think they are all very intelligent and it's really refreshing to read from the minds of so many insightful people.

I think Uskahoth makes a very good point about my ex being inexperienced and that having an impact - at the very least one imagined by me. I'm the first person he ever dated (he's 37). He is only just in the process of coming out. It obviously concerned me that I was just a stepping-stone onto someone bigger and better (literally).

His conception of gay men before I told him about the world was that we were all 'twinks' and he found it hard to believe I was gay because I didn't walk or talk strangely and seemed 'normal' and masculine. He had never even heard of using gay dating (or sex) websites, which might have helped enlarge his view somewhat. So to me, it seemed that half the things he actually appreciated about me were nothing more than the result of a complete ignorance of the possibilities that existed out there to meet his actual tastes. In my mind I think I felt that once he discovered the rest of the world, he wouldn't see those qualities of mine as anything special, and would diversify his requirements. Which would undoubtedly be a guy as big as himself or bigger for starters. And given his lack of experience, those tastes would probably be pretty rigid until his curiosity was sated and mind opened up to new possibilities.

So I suppose to counter the suggestion that if he didn't like me, why would he have dated me, I would say in return that had he had a full appreciation of what was available to him and *still* decided to date me, then I would have had more confidence in our relationship and been less insecure about my own physical inferiority to him.

Also like some of you say, had he been more experienced, he might have been in a position to overlook *some* of my physical deficiencies through the guise of fantasy. Because I don't think he will find it very easy to find a guy bigger than himself to enact whatever fantasies he has in any case. He's definitely one of those top 1% guys genetically, and massively stronger than most people.

It did occur to me, however, that most people probably would have just taken what they could and not thought too much about why the guy was dating them and whether their physical inequality meant anything. So I think the fact that I do comes down to massive insecurities and feelings of inferiority that I have that I probably need to address. While I am personally attracted to muscular men, that is still only one factor, and after a while, not a very important one either. But I tend to think this is not how other people think, and that I can't stomach the thought that deep down they don't really find me physically attractive (so my insecure mind would worry that I'm on probation until a better man comes along, and so I have to try and be 'perfect' 24/7).

I think, in response to Eager Muscle, that I tend to avoid people and behave a bit like a hermit because it's easier doing that than having to confront these feelings that get thrown up in relationships. But I'm not sure being an impenetrable fortress is very good for a person's long-term mental wellbeing. As I do want to share my life and have this annoying irrepressable desire to help people and make them happy. I don't think it's at all altruistic, as I get satisfaction out of it, but it can leave me feeling used if I believe the person doesn't really 'want' me.

Oh, and I agree about the reason for working out thing. I train entirely to achieve a look that I want to achieve for myself, to challenge myself, to get an endorphin rush, to be healthier, to fit clothes better, and so on. It has nothing to do with trying to attract other people, and it never has done, that would be too transient a motivation to have kept me disciplined and at it for over a decade. So I know I'm not about to become a blob. But it wouldn't worry me so much if the person I was dating became less in-shape.

[Mdlftr]

Originally Posted by Uskathoth

But generally in my experience people are pretty diverse in what turns them on. Some guys have specific types but most of the people I know are pretty flexible on what they find attractive.

Caveat: I think that guys without much experience with dating/sex with other men may be more prone to having a strong preference for a specific type. But that's just an impression of mine; I couldn't back that up with many specifics but my general experience makes me think it is true.

Let me tell you, that EVERYONE, gay or straight, is more "picky" the less dating experience they have.

Society (and media, such as print ads, bbing mags, tv shows and movies) have given people the false impression that most women are around 5'7", weigh 110 pounds, have 37" legs and 45 inch busts, and have long flowing hair and flawless skin. Men, by contrast, are all at least 6' tall, weigh at a minimum 230 pounds, have thick, bulging muscles, square jaws and deep, baritone voices coming out of mouths with chiseled lips, perfect straight, white teeth and cheekbones so sharp they could cut paper!

This is all marketing. As people date more, they become more realistic and have a much better idea of what they like and don't like in a partner. The physical aspect, while important, is only one part of the whole. If someone wants to play around, the "hottie" is great for a short time. After that, most people look for commonalities -- whether it's beliefs, value systems, hobbies or something else.

The physical aspect is part of the mix. The "hot sex" aspect of most relationships (the part where you just can't get enough of the other person, and want to be with them day and night) lasts for about 3 years. After that, you better have something to talk about, or do together (other than f*cking) or it's time to move on.

Harsh, but true.

[hulkoutlvr]

That is very true.

As my grandmother used to say, "beauty is but for a season, but ugly lasts forever".

I once dated a guy who was completely gorgeous (or at least I thought so, as what one person considers a 10 might be a 4 to someone else). He was tall, dark haired, dark eyed and thickly built. Very nice body. The trouble was, he knew it. That gets old quickly. If the person is not beautiful inside, you will soon reach a point where you can't stand to look at them. At the very least, you will probably find that you have very little to talk about.

The trouble in my area is finding someone where the inner beauty matches the outer. Here in rural areas the gay population is somewhat compartmentalized. You're either a twink, a bodybuilder, a bear, or an old man. There are a few of the intellectual types (which really turn me on) but not many, and typically they are 60 and over (I'm 35). It would be nice to find someone about my age, who's somewhere in between bodybuilder and bear, who also has a brain. But then again, I might as well be looking to purchase ocean front property in Phoenix.

Addam sounds like a wonderfully decent guy, with the qualities that would make a great partner for someone. You don't have to be a "people person" to find a boyfriend, you only have to be a "person person" because one person is all you're really looking for. If you can open yourself up to another person, that's the most important part of finding someone; allowing yourself to be open, and allowing the other person to be just who they are, with no reservations or wishes to change them. I think that's the biggest mistake people make; falling in love with someone for just who they are, then spending the rest of the relationship trying to change them.

[Addamm]

Two years have passed, and I thought it would interesting to revisit this old thread. I almost can't relate to the way I was thinking just 2 years ago.

As it happens, I ended up staying in a relationship with this guy for the whole time; we only recently went our separate ways. He was particularly helpful in getting me to love myself; once I'd accomplished that, all the other issues surrounding my insecurities evaporated (almost immediately in fact). Actually, his help in getting me to love myself also finally ended my 19 year depression, transformed my self-esteem, and enabled me to connect to a deeper sense of being ('spirituality' if you will).

All the things that I considered so important and meaningful that were ruminating around in my head back then seem so alien and irrelevant to me now. I'm very glad that I went through all this though, because without the suffering I felt I faced, I would never have grown.

I'm sure there's a positive message for everyone in this somewhere.