muscle domination

[blondYT]

I want to ask a sincere question or two. I've been reading JohnD's Youth Camp series. It's definitely hot, don't get me wrong. But it leaves me wondering: Is it possible, or even good, to tell stories about our sexual fantasies without stereotypes? I don't mean only racial stereotypes. In the gay stories there's usually a strong association of masculinity with dominance and femininity with passivity. Usually on this site, it's like black men don't exist. So it's interesting to see black men in JohnD's story in the place of "dominant." (Even though, of course, we know that in fantasies, the sub and not the dominant is actually in control. The dominant gives the sub what he wants even though the dom appears to be in control).

I would assume everyone here thinks racism and sexism are wrong. Duh. So the question is: Is it alright to fantasize using rape, a gender hierarchy, and racial stereotype? And, if so, how do we take that from stories into the real world without becoming, well, rapists and racists?

Cheers~

[TheMM]

You make a valid point. I certainly won't argue it.

But to be honest, here are the reasons I've semi-noticed (or at least what I believe) have happened to make your point true:

1. Writers don't put different types of people in, because they wish to avoid that very problem.

2. Writers don't always describe every last detail of a person, because they want the reader to fill in those details.

3. They had an idea in their minds, and they had to go with it.

I don't think its a racial stereotype at all, your obviously the one who is stereotyping, or at least generally thinking about it. He wrote a story about a black kid who's dominating, how is that a stereotype when I'm writing stories about white boys who are dominating? There is black guys out there that are dominating and then there's some who aren't. This goes with anyone in the world, there's always going to be people who get off on power, there always has been.

And Dominate guys aren't just dominate because the the guy there dominating is submissive. I'm a pretty cocky guy myself and I have run across some very intimidating male figures, and I like to be the dominate guy. So Why would I be submissive to him.. I don't like when guys are like that, I hate the feeling actually.

I don't know what else to say other then I think your thinking about this whole thing way to much. Dominance is a huge part of muscle growth, physically and mentally. It comes to the character with the muscle, simple as that

[Mdlftr]

Originally Posted by blondYT

I want to ask a sincere question or two. I've been reading JohnD's Youth Camp series. It's definitely hot, don't get me wrong. ......And, if so, how do we take that from stories into the real world without becoming, well, rapists and racists?

Note the name of the site: Muscle growth FICTION (as in pretend) (as in, what exists on the internet, stays on the internet)

Another way to think of this: Reading a book doesn't turn you into that book. Otherwise, everyone who read "The Bible" or Ann Rice's "interview with the vampire" would be VASTLY different!

And they're not, so, remember, "it's only a story".

...And leave the night light on.....

Mdlftr

[Jaypat]

I?m going to be the first to say I don?t share every fantasy on this board. I don?t find domination stories particularly appealing. Stereotypes of any kind are generally a sign of a lazy writer?but I can?t say I?ve never used them. But, that being said, it doesn?t mean these stories shouldn?t be here.

I mean, isn?t that what fantasy is all about? It?s an escape. You get to do things and say things and be things that you just can?t in the real world. Try to take that out of it, to make fantasy more like the real world and you defeat the very purpose of having fantasy in the first place.

I think most people are able to distinguish fantasy from reality. They read a story about a guy who bullies and rapes another guy and find it hot. But they know they can?t go into work tomorrow and try it on the office boy.

And I?m sure there are probably some people out there who are disturbed and can?t make the distinction. But those people?s issues are far deeper than the contents of these boards and there is no way anything we do here, right down to shutting down the board, would do anything to help these people. One way or the other, it?s really out of our hands.

So if some of these fantasies disturb you, my advice is to find the ones that don?t, and let the people who enjoy the darker stories have their fun.

[rextorres]

I don't care for muscle domination stories where one person uses his size and strength to Lord it over another. I don't write it and I don't read it. Period. Now, I sometimes write stories where one person uses his "power" to force another person to grow bigger and more muscular. Often, the person who grows ends up even bigger than the person who MAKES him grow! But, I really don't care for stories where one is hurt, harmed or humiliated by another just because he is smaller and weaker. Those are the stories I skip and don't comment on, either.

[blondYT]

[COLOR=Blue]Thanks for sharing your thoughts, TheMM. And thanks for being so civil about it.[/COLOR]

Originally Posted by TheMM

You make a valid point. I certainly won't argue it.

But to be honest, here are the reasons I've semi-noticed (or at least what I believe) have happened to make your point true:

1. Writers don't put different types of people in, because they wish to avoid that very problem.

[COLOR=Blue]I would hope that, with a little imagination, we (I mean human beings) could produce stories with *different* different people. That's a clumsy way of saying that a story with all whites and a shuffling black grandmother (the otherwise great series The Team) and a story about a racial role-reversal in a prison, where the main black kids have guns for arms and call each other nigga constantly... Well, I wouldn't have a problem if those weren't almost the only representations of blacks on the site. It just seems like a lack of imagination on my part, which is a shame, since this site is supposed to be all about imagination. Rather, in most cases it seems to mimic the mainstream gay ads and Abercrombie.

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2. Writers don't always describe every last detail of a person, because they want the reader to fill in those details.

[COLOR=Blue]That's true. But in the West, it is just assumed a person is white unless one says otherwise. But what you mentioned is a nice way to leave it to people to imagine as they will.[/COLOR]

3. They had an idea in their minds, and they had to go with it.

[blondYT]

[COLOR=Blue]Thanks, Jaypat, for taking the time to reply to my question. I would like to note that I did not advocate any censorship--certainly nothing as extreme as shutting down the boards. It seems it should go without saying that, since I've been here since '05, I wouldn't want that.

I wonder though if the break between fantasy and reality you assert is always that clean. You've heard that we cannot accomplish things unless we can imagine them first. You know that athletes visualize correct performance of the techniques of their sport. The brain actually doesn't know the difference... Maybe that's why people get off on this site, myself included!

However, what I wonder is this: When it comes to race and gender, how much does what we imagine the other person is about prevent us from seeing who they are?
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Originally Posted by Jaypat

I?m going to be the first to say I don?t share every fantasy on this board. I don?t find domination stories particularly appealing. Stereotypes of any kind are generally a sign of a lazy writer?but I can?t say I?ve never used them. But, that being said, it doesn?t mean these stories shouldn?t be here.

I mean, isn?t that what fantasy is all about? It?s an escape. You get to do things and say things and be things that you just can?t in the real world. Try to take that out of it, to make fantasy more like the real world and you defeat the very purpose of having fantasy in the first place.

I think most people are able to distinguish fantasy from reality. They read a story about a guy who bullies and rapes another guy and find it hot. But they know they can?t go into work tomorrow and try it on the office boy.

And I?m sure there are probably some people out there who are disturbed and can?t make the distinction. But those people?s issues are far deeper than the contents of these boards and there is no way anything we do here, right down to shutting down the board, would do anything to help these people. One way or the other, it?s really out of our hands.

So if some of these fantasies disturb you, my advice is to find the ones that don?t, and let the people who enjoy the darker stories have their fun.

[blondYT]

[COLOR=Blue]TeenMuscleGod: My first post was very brief, and I did not mean that just to have a story with a dominant black kid is in and of itself stereotypical. I wrote quickly, but I'm not uninformed. Have you read the story? My point is that the main character thinks the black kid is dominant because he is black. But, mainly, I just find it sad that in one of the few times we get a black person in a story, it's all about the ghetto, guns, and saying nigga 14 million times. Well, that and giving the white kid what he wants.

I'm not denying that the story is hot, but I worry a little bit.

[/COLOR]

Originally Posted by TeenMuscleGod

I don't think its a racial stereotype at all, your obviously the one who is stereotyping, or at least generally thinking about it. He wrote a story about a black kid who's dominating, how is that a stereotype when I'm writing stories about white boys who are dominating? There is black guys out there that are dominating and then there's some who aren't. This goes with anyone in the world, there's always going to be people who get off on power, there always has been.

And Dominate guys aren't just dominate because the the guy there dominating is submissive. I'm a pretty cocky guy myself and I have run across some very intimidating male figures, and I like to be the dominate guy. So Why would I be submissive to him.. I don't like when guys are like that, I hate the feeling actually.

I don't know what else to say other then I think your thinking about this whole thing way to much. Dominance is a huge part of muscle growth, physically and mentally. It comes to the character with the muscle, simple as that

[Jaypat]

Athletes who are visualizing performance goals are trying, almost obsessively, to achieve their end. We must hope no one comes here with the obsessive goal of learning how to rape or bully or stereotype other people, and I?m sure most readers don?t.

And I think I stated that for some people the break between fantasy and reality my not be as clean as it could be. But again, there?s nothing we can really do about that. Most of how a person reacts to a story has to do with their individual personalities and what they bring with them to the board, not what they find here. I can only say the break is clean for me. And it appears to be clean for you. Why don?t we just give everyone else the benefit of the doubt?

And finally, you say you don?t advocate any censorship; however, you seem to strongly imply that there is a serious problem with the stories on the board. May I ask what it is that you are trying to achieve with this thread? What are you advocating?

[musqlure]

Originally Posted by blondYT

I would assume everyone here thinks racism and sexism are wrong. Duh. So the question is: Is it alright to fantasize using rape, a gender hierarchy, and racial stereotype? And, if so, how do we take that from stories into the real world without becoming, well, rapists and racists?

Um, there's a reason that this stuff is called "fiction." That means that it isn't really true. It's just the product of the writer's imagination.

It isn't at all clear what you're advocating or asking here, but try thinking about this analogy. The HBO series "The Wire" was conceived by a white writer named George Pelecanos. As you may know, it features a lot of black guys who are criminals and who do very bad things. Pelecanos has also written a lot of crime novels that involve many fictional black characters. Many of these fictional characters are also criminals.

Now, after learning those facts, are you ready to accuse George Pelecanos of being a racist? Alternatively, are you ready to suspect Pelecanos of criminal tendencies or activities simply because he is able to imagine stories involving crimes and render those stories brilliantly in writing?

If I'm right, you're saying, "Of course not." And the reason you say that is because these are simply works of fiction. We can imagine and write about a lot of things we find distasteful and wouldn't dream of doing in real life. That's all that the Youth Camp stories are. If you can't get that, then you probably ought to stick to nonfiction.

[blondYT]

Originally Posted by Jaypat

Athletes who are visualizing performance goals are trying, almost obsessively, to achieve their end. We must hope no one comes here with the obsessive goal of learning how to rape or bully or stereotype other people, and I?m sure most readers don?t.


[COLOR=Blue]My point was that neurologically, the brain does not process the information from imagined acts any differently. It forms memories just as easily. Literally, it connects neurons and forms wrinkles on the cerebral surface. So the fact that habits (of some type) are formed here does not apply only to psychopaths. Habits formed by those who do not commit violent crimes may include -- creating a feeling of low self-worth in comparison to an unattainable ideal. On the other hand, not all such habits are "bad." Admiring muscle and confidence might encourage one to live a healthier lifestyle.[/COLOR]

And I think I stated that for some people the break between fantasy and reality my not be as clean as it could be. But again, there?s nothing we can really do about that. Most of how a person reacts to a story has to do with their individual personalities and what they bring with them to the board, not what they find here. I can only say the break is clean for me. And it appears to be clean for you. Why don?t we just give everyone else the benefit of the doubt?

And finally, you say you don?t advocate any censorship; however, you seem to strongly imply that there is a serious problem with the stories on the board. May I ask what it is that you are trying to achieve with this thread? What are you advocating?

[COLOR=Blue]I take it much to heart that you seem to think you know what I stand for better than I do. Such assumptions really poison a discussion. I simply suggested that we continue to push our imaginations not only about muscle growth but also about the types of people in the world. I have neither the power nor the desire to do any more than to make this request -- well, and to write my own stories.[/COLOR]

[blondYT]

Originally Posted by musqlure

Um, there's a reason that this stuff is called "fiction." That means that it isn't really true. It's just the product of the writer's imagination.

It isn't at all clear what you're advocating or asking here, but try thinking about this analogy. The HBO series "The Wire" was conceived by a white writer named George Pelecanos. As you may know, it features a lot of black guys who are criminals and who do very bad things. Pelecanos has also written a lot of crime novels that involve many fictional black characters. Many of these fictional characters are also criminals.

Now, after learning those facts, are you ready to accuse George Pelecanos of being a racist? Alternatively, are you ready to suspect Pelecanos of criminal tendencies or activities simply because he is able to imagine stories involving crimes and render those stories brilliantly in writing?


If I'm right, you're saying, "Of course not." And the reason you say that is because these are simply works of fiction. We can imagine and write about a lot of things we find distasteful and wouldn't dream of doing in real life. That's all that the Youth Camp stories are. If you can't get that, then you probably ought to stick to nonfiction.

[COLOR=Blue]It's rather shocking at this date in my life to have someone talk down me about the distinction between fiction and reality. So I'd kindly ask you to hold off on the lectures and analogies designed to make it plain to simple ol' me. We may disagree, but that doesn't mean I'm simple.

Let me ask you a question: What would you say the relationship is between what people imagine and how they treat people they meet?

I would say that the repetition of a strict repertoire of traits in fiction, film, news -- any type of representation -- tends to provide for us the outer boundaries of what to expect. So, the ghetto tends to be represented by the same set of images -- guns, cursing, etc. and then people actually call that real when it's only one slice of reality. [/COLOR][COLOR=Blue]As I recall, Pelecanos was celebrated for going beyond the usual set of images of Baltimore. [/COLOR]

[COLOR=Blue]When I was in high school, my friends couldn't believe what neighborhood I lived in because I was smart and my parents owned a house and that's not what they expected of this neighborhood in Cincinnati. Some of my friends, after coming to my house, insisted it was in a different neighborhood than it was -- I guess because they couldn't imagine my living there. That taught me, at least, how powerful a set of repeated images can be -- people literally can't see reality beyond them. And the more realistic our media gets (virtual reality and whatnot) the harder it will be to deny that what media shows us is real.

In terms of what I'm advocating, you can see my post above. [/COLOR]

[blondYT]

Perhaps I should return to my original two questions, as I don't want to get sidetracked from them. "Is it alright to fantasize using rape, a gender hierarchy, and racial stereotype? And, if so, how do we take that from stories into the real world without becoming, well, rapists and racists?"

I'd ask you to put assumptions about censorship aside and remember: I said many of the stories, whatever their take on race or masculinity, are [COLOR=DarkRed]hot.[COLOR=White]

So one option of course, is to say this is not alright and censor it. That seems like a terrible way to live -- not expressing one's desires because they've been censored. Ok. So let's say someone wants to be dominated: How do you do that for them without actually causing them harm or disrespecting them as a person? Or let's say you are partial to one particular ethnicity. How do you get your kicks but not leave for the next generation the same racial stereotypes (about beauty, criminality, etc) that we have now?

There may be a way to do these things, and I'm interested in hearing it.
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[arpeejay]

People write what they write. Sometimes what they write is distasteful, often in lots of different ways. The basic rule of thumb should be, "if you don't like it, don't read it." Even when you are reading, you are participating; you have to be the judge of your own behavior.

Having said all that, I agree that depictions that include racism, sexism, and sexual violence are distasteful. On the other hand, I think it's probably safe to say that a lot of us are into muscle because at some point in our lives we wanted to feel big and powerful, to get back at all those bullies, whoever they may have been. It's not so weird for dominance, as in showing off, displays of strength, etc., to be erotically charged, especially for men.

The line between that kind of sexual dominance and sexual violence can be very fine. I know where it is in real life (I've never come close and never would) and I pretty much know where it is in fiction. And yet I usually get a jolt out of John's stories, even when I'm thinking, "no, no, no, that would never do."

I'm rambling. I'll stop.

xoxo

Richard

[blondYT]

Thank you very much for your response, Richard. Not only do I enjoy your stories (the last one about the Kept Boy was amazing!), but I've also gained a lot of wisdom from your stories and comments. I understand, for example, the potential for good outcomes and mutual consent in intergenerational relationships much better than I did before. That's the kind of path, where one gets hotness but doesn't exploit that I'd been looking for. Thanks again.

[musqlure]

[COLOR=Blue]It's rather shocking at this date in my life to have someone talk down me about the distinction between fiction and reality. So I'd kindly ask you to hold off on the lectures and analogies designed to make it plain to simple ol' me. We may disagree, but that doesn't mean I'm simple.

[COLOR=White]So you're shocked. I hope that's the worst thing that ever happens to you. And I wasn't calling you simple. I used an analogy to illustrate my point. I note that you haven't addressed that point at all. So I'll repeat it. Just because someone can imagine or describe an act, a mindset, or a character, do you think the person who imagines it is somehow likely to commit the imagined act, to share the described mindset, or identify with the fictional character? You appear to be assuming that one cannot distinguish between fact and fiction and order one's conduct accordingly. Why do you make that assumption? Do you have a problem distinguishing the two?

[/COLOR][/COLOR][COLOR=Blue]Let me ask you a question: What would you say the relationship is between what people imagine and how they treat people they meet?

I would say that the repetition of a strict repertoire of traits in fiction, film, news -- any type of representation -- tends to provide for us the outer boundaries of what to expect. So, the ghetto tends to be represented by the same set of images -- guns, cursing, etc. and then people actually call that real when it's only one slice of reality. [/COLOR]

The relationship between what any given person imagines and how he treats the people that he meets depends very much on the individual. There are people who act out exactly what they think or imagine. Other people are like the fictional Walter Mitty -- they imagine all sorts of things they never act on. There are no general rules.

Media representations only set the boundaries (whether outer or inner) of what to expect if we either fail or refuse to think for ourselves. If you rely solely on media representations without bothering to investigate a subject for yourself, then you're not terribly willing to exercise your brain.

[COLOR=Blue]Some of my friends, after coming to my house, insisted it was in a different neighborhood than it was -- I guess because they couldn't imagine my living there. That taught me, at least, how powerful a set of repeated images can be -- people literally can't see reality beyond them.

[COLOR=White]If this was in fact the case, then it's because the friends in question were so completely trapped in their own biases that it blinded them to what their own senses were telling them. That kind of persistence in believing in an imagined state of affairs even when confronted with the real one suggests something more akin to a mental disturbance, in my view.[/COLOR]
[/COLOR]
And as for your original questions, the answers really are not that complicated. If someone enjoys being dominated, for example, giving him what he wants entails no disrespect. It's as simple as playing out any fantasy.

If someone prefers a certain race or ethnicity, it's just that -- a preference. It always strikes me that this issue is raised as some kind of problem exclusively when the preference is for someone outside of one's own race or ethnicity. If a white guy prefers black men, for example, suddenly his physical attraction is seen as freighted with all kinds of "issues." But if a white guy dates other white guys exclusively, no one ever accuses him of racism, although the charge might be much more credible in that case. So is it just a coincidence that you bring up this whole question of "domination" and whether or not such stories are appropriate in the context of a story in which black guys dominate white guys? There are scads of muscle domination stories on this site. Yet somehow this particular series is what sparked your question. Why?
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[blondYT]

the site won't let me respond inside our exchange! please bear with this separate reply.

Thanks for allowing me to revise myself. I didn't mean that representations come only from mass media. Still, mass media is only one type of media. Besides, those who make it are still people They are part of the "we" that you describe. My point is less that mass media is the problem than that the terms and categories we have are limited.


I keep thinking of explorers and settlers: It's amazing how often they use the familiar as a reference point. So we get Old World names in our hemisphere: Dover, New York, New Amsterdam, New Jersey. I wouldn't say giving these names was a sign of mental disturbance, but rather that our brains filter reality through the terms we already have. That seems to me to be the rule, and the ability to sense something utterly new the rare and miraculous exception.


I responded to part 4 of JohnD's story, so you can read there if you'd like to know why I responded to him. 1) I think there are problems with characterization and plot. 2) The larger questions were actually simmering for a long time. If someone like me wants to be on this site, one tends to have to overlook them. But I thought I'd ask around now.

I should note that I mentioned more than one series. And I mentioned gender as well as race. I wouldn't be surprised if your overlooking those stemmed from exactly what I've been describing: what you imagined shaped what you were reading from (or into) me and how you decided to treat me.

Now, at this point, I'll confess that I imagine that you are white. I say this only because your statement ("no one" accuses a white guy who dates only whites of racism) misses a world where that's talked about as racist all the time. See http://www.splicetoday.com/sex/don-t...-relationships. Just the tip of the iceberg, btw: There are whole anthologies talking about -- for lack of a better term -- negrophobia in the gay community.

IMO, refusing to date blacks (just for example) and dating exclusively blacks are two sides of a coin. Both have an image of the black thug in mind -- the one rejects it as beyond their social realm, the other embraces the taboo. but they're both reacting to the same image.

I would hope that -- agree or disagree -- you could do so pleasantly. Otherwise, hey -- have a good life.

[blondYT]

Richard:

I've been thinking a lot about your response to me -- especially about the notion that we participate, even as readers. I was thinking about the fact that -- back when Rush Limbaugh had a TV show -- I used to tune in occasionally. I called it: "checking in on what the crazies are saying these days." Now, I wouldn't go so far as to characterize JohnD as crazy just for this stereotypical prison storyline he has going. But I do find it fascinating -- on occasion -- to see whether people are doing any better of a job with this stuff. I don't think that makes me complicit.

[musqlure]

Originally Posted by blondYT

[1] I responded to part 4 of JohnD's story, so you can read there if you'd like to know why I responded to him. 1) I think there are problems with characterization and plot. 2) The larger questions were actually simmering for a long time. If someone like me wants to be on this site, one tends to have to overlook them. But I thought I'd ask around now.

I should note that I mentioned more than one series. And I mentioned gender as well as race. I wouldn't be surprised if your overlooking those stemmed from exactly what I've been describing: what you imagined shaped what you were reading from (or into) me and how you decided to treat me.

[2] Now, at this point, I'll confess that I imagine that you are white. I say this only because your statement ("no one" accuses a white guy who dates only whites of racism) misses a world where that's talked about as racist all the time. See http://www.splicetoday.com/sex/don-t...-relationships. Just the tip of the iceberg, btw: There are whole anthologies talking about -- for lack of a better term -- negrophobia in the gay community.

[3] IMO, refusing to date blacks (just for example) and dating exclusively blacks are two sides of a coin. Both have an image of the black thug in mind -- the one rejects it as beyond their social realm, the other embraces the taboo. but they're both reacting to the same image.

I've added Arabic numerals to parts of your post for the purpose of identifying my responses.

[1] I fully realize that you mentioned more than one series and that you raised issues of gender as well. I was in no sense responding to something that I had "imagined" reading. You claim that these questions had been simmering for a long time, and yet it was only this particular series by JohnD that actually prompted you to write and raise your questions publicly. All I asked was why that was so.

The first reason you give is problems with characterization and plot, a criticism that might well be directed to the bulk of stories posted here. I thus don't find that especially persuasive, since it's hardly unique to JohnD's series. (Note to JohnD: I'm not necessarily agreeing with the criticism. I'm just saying that if this series is properly vulnerable to that criticism, so are many others.) The second reason is, I suspect, the primary one, and I simply find it interesting that it was story involving interracial interaction that spurred your post. In making this observation, I impute no particular motive to you. As stated, I merely find that fact interesting.

[2] I am, in fact, white, and I had an African-American partner for many years. My remarks in this regard are drawn from my own personal experiences. I have little doubt that there are websites in which people interested in this topic discuss it. My point, however, is a different one. When you live in the real world as one half of an interracial couple, you spend a lot of time dealing with people who question your reasons for choosing your partner. I used to encounter hostility from both black men and white men because of it. So whatever academic discussions may be occurring on line, I can tell you that things look quite different when one has to face them in person.

[3] It would be difficult for me to state how much I disagree with this idea, for it is based on a highly offensive premise. To wit, that white men who either refuse to date black men or who date black men exclusively do so because they view black men as thugs. I cannot fathom what would lead you to such a conclusion. A white man who doesn't date black guys may do so because he has an aesthetic preference for, say, red hair, and he'll only find that in other white men. A white man who dates only black men doesn't necessarily view black men as thugs. He may be acting on an aesthetic preference as well -- for dark skin, full lips, braided hair, or whatever. My former partner is a very intelligent and attractive black man who doesn't resemble a "thug" in any way.

The image of the "black thug" may be something to which you are reacting, but I would not go so far as to assume that it is what motivates all other white men. Some white guys find black guys attractive but would never dream of dating a "thug."

And with that, I will close.

[blondYT]

[1] I fully realize that you mentioned more than one series and that you raised issues of gender as well. I was in no sense responding to something that I had "imagined" reading. You claim that these questions had been simmering for a long time, and yet it was only this particular series by JohnD that actually prompted you to write and raise your questions publicly. All I asked was why that was so.

[COLOR=Blue]I meant no offense in using the term "imagined." I've actually been trying to use it very literally -- one forms an image (and sometimes a story to go along with it) to accompany people. I do think your insistence that JohnD's series prompted me, contrary to my assertions to the contrary proves the power of these conceptions--even preconceptions. For example, I have brought up issues of race and characterization earlier -- see http://www.musclegrowth.org/forum/sh...ad.php?t=12101 . Yet, because of whatever you have conceived or deduced, if you prefer another term, you can't let go of a particular story that "this particular series by JohnD that actually prompted you to write and raise your questions publicly." You go on below to explain why you are somehow more right about my motivations than I am. I have no need to be dishonest, especially in the pseudonym-protected world of cyberspace.
[/COLOR]
The first reason you give is problems with characterization and plot, a criticism that might well be directed to the bulk of stories posted here. I thus don't find that especially persuasive, since it's hardly unique to JohnD's series. (Note to JohnD: I'm not necessarily agreeing with the criticism. I'm just saying that if this series is properly vulnerable to that criticism, so are many others.) The second reason is, I suspect, the primary one, and I simply find it interesting that it was story involving interracial interaction that spurred your post. In making this observation, I impute no particular motive to you. As stated, I merely find that fact interesting.

[COLOR=Blue]As stated above, I dispute the facticity of your observation LOL. Seems like you moved from "I suspect" to "making this observations" to finding "a fact." Slippery, but I caught it![/COLOR]

[2] I am, in fact, white, and I had an African-American partner for many years. My remarks in this regard are drawn from my own personal experiences. I have little doubt that there are websites in which people interested in this topic discuss it. My point, however, is a different one. When you live in the real world as one half of an interracial couple, you spend a lot of time dealing with people who question your reasons for choosing your partner. I used to encounter hostility from both black men and white men because of it. So whatever academic discussions may be occurring on line, I can tell you that things look quite different when one has to face them in person.

[COLOR=Blue]I'm confused by the distinction you draw here between "academic" and "real world" discussions -- in part because I know the black author of the article and his white partner. Was the language of the article academic to you?[/COLOR]

[3] It would be difficult for me to state how much I disagree with this idea, for it is based on a highly offensive premise. To wit, that white men who either refuse to date black men or who date black men exclusively do so because they view black men as thugs. I cannot fathom what would lead you to such a conclusion. A white man who doesn't date black guys may do so because he has an aesthetic preference for, say, red hair, and he'll only find that in other white men. A white man who dates only black men doesn't necessarily view black men as thugs. He may be acting on an aesthetic preference as well -- for dark skin, full lips, braided hair, or whatever. My former partner is a very intelligent and attractive black man who doesn't resemble a "thug" in any way.

[COLOR=Blue]I appreciate your sharing your story. I am well aware of the difficulty of navigating interracial relationships. It's a shame you had to deal with other people's presumptions. It doesn't seem, though, that you fit as one of the type of men we were speculating about. You wrote that you had a black partner -- not that you dated black men exclusively.

I'm glad to have the opportunity to clarify what I should have said. I lost the post prior to the one you saw and recomposed the new one far too quickly. Perhaps this elaboration will be less offensive. Several posts ago, you wrote: [COLOR=White]"If someone prefers a certain race or ethnicity, it's just that -- a preference.It always strikes me that this issue is raised as some kind of problem exclusively when the preference is for someone outside of one's own race or ethnicity. If a white guy prefers black men, for example, suddenly his physical attraction is seen as freighted with all kinds of "issues." But if a white guy dates other white guys exclusively, no one ever accuses him of racism, although the charge might be much more credible in that case."[/COLOR]

The only purpose of my pointing you to the recent opinion piece was that it matters who is doing the seeing. As someone who has been in an interracial relationship (what a strange phrase), you probably see things about how race functions that white men who have not do not see. So when you say "no one accuses" whites who date only whites of racism, I have to wonder whose thoughts you've been subjected to! My point was that there is a large population of someones pointing out exactly that fact.

[/COLOR][COLOR=Blue]
A broader point: I think there is a difference between a preference and a full-blown exclusionary policy LOL. [/COLOR][COLOR=Blue]My discussion of the thug imagery was not meant to accuse any white guy who ever dated a black man -- but was actually an agreement with your point that an exclusive policy against black men could very well indicate just as many "issues" -- even the same ones -- as an exclusive selection of black men. Since you first suggested that white men who will only date other white men may have as much or more racial prejudice than those who date only black men, I talked about those two options, and how each of them could indicate race issues. However, I don't hink I did imply that every white man who ever dates a black man is looking for a thug. The thug example was pertinent, since we were talking about the JohnD stories where the term figures prominently.

Still, your correction is noted, there are other explanations for an exclusive preference for or against black men. Some of those, of course, are also problematic... Black men are more this or less that and on and on.

The whole topic of racial categories is really what I'm thinking about here. At first, I agreed with your comment about red hair, but then I remembered my black friends who have naturally red hair! Some black guys' hair changes color over the seasons, and of course, there's always dye! My point is that, since we now know race has no biological basis, we can look at how societies sustain rather nonsensical systems of racial categorization. You picked a relatively benign symbol -- red hair -- and defined all those as black as not possessing it. It took me a minute to catch it, as at first, I thought so too. But then the exceptions started coming to mind. It seems to me that whether one chooses red hair, dark skin, accent, intelligence or thuggishness, those who insist on racial categories always have to create a false generalization and then live inside it.

It sort of baffles me as someone who has dated (or at least had an encounter) with a man from every so-called race. At first I thought I only liked muscle. Then I met this skinny guy who was so stylish I didn't care that he was skinny! I thought I only liked str8-acting guys (another strange term), until I met this feminine guy who was built! None of the things I liked, or thought I liked, necessarily include or exclude anybody. So I'm always a little disappointed when people (including me) don't realize that their categories can't work in every new situation. And on that note, let me add finally-- You wrote:
[/COLOR]
The image of the "black thug" may be something to which you are reacting, but I would not go so far as to assume that it is what motivates all other white men. Some white guys find black guys attractive but would never dream of dating a "thug."

[COLOR=Blue]I'm positively intrigued. What evidence have you used to conclude that I am white? And what is the conversation you think we're having? Are you explaining to your version of me, another white guy, that I stereotype black men as thugs or have a problem with stories of black men dominating white ones?

I won't tell you who I am. But I will tell you that's not the conversation I'm having with you.

But I thank you for continuing it and for doing so so pleasantly.
[/COLOR]
And with that, I will close.[/quote]

[musqlure]

Originally Posted by blondYT

[COLOR=Red][1][/COLOR] [COLOR=Blue]I do think your insistence that JohnD's series prompted me, contrary to my assertions to the contrary proves the power of these conceptions--even preconceptions. For example, I have brought up issues of race and characterization earlier -- see http://www.musclegrowth.org/forum/sh...ad.php?t=12101 . Yet, because of whatever you have conceived or deduced, if you prefer another term, you can't let go of a particular story that "this particular series by JohnD that actually prompted you to write and raise your questions publicly." You go on below to explain why you are somehow more right about my motivations than I am. I have no need to be dishonest, especially in the pseudonym-protected world of cyberspace.
[/COLOR]
[COLOR=Red][2][/COLOR] The second reason is, I suspect, the primary one, and I simply find it interesting that it was story involving interracial interaction that spurred your post. In making this observation, I impute no particular motive to you. As stated, I merely find that fact interesting.

[COLOR=Blue]As stated above, I dispute the facticity of your observation LOL. Seems like you moved from "I suspect" to "making this observations" to finding "a fact." Slippery, but I caught it![/COLOR]


[COLOR=Red][3][/COLOR] [COLOR=Blue] The whole topic of racial categories is really what I'm thinking about here. At first, I agreed with your comment about red hair, but then I remembered my black friends who have naturally red hair! Some black guys' hair changes color over the seasons, and of course, there's always dye! My point is that, since we now know race has no biological basis, we can look at how societies sustain rather nonsensical systems of racial categorization. You picked a relatively benign symbol -- red hair -- and defined all those as black as not possessing it. It took me a minute to catch it, as at first, I thought so too. But then the exceptions started coming to mind. It seems to me that whether one chooses red hair, dark skin, accent, intelligence or thuggishness, those who insist on racial categories always have to create a false generalization and then live inside it.

[/COLOR][COLOR=Red][4][/COLOR] [COLOR=Blue]I'm positively intrigued. What evidence have you used to conclude that I am white? And what is the conversation you think we're having? Are you explaining to your version of me, another white guy, that I stereotype black men as thugs or have a problem with stories of black men dominating white ones?

I won't tell you who I am. But I will tell you that's not the conversation I'm having with you.
[/COLOR]

Same numbering convention as before:

[COLOR=Red][1][/COLOR] Look, clearly JohnD's series prompted you in some way, because you wrote in reaction to it. You now provide a link to show that it wasn't the first time that you've raised similar issues in this forum. Had you brought that up earlier, we might have avoided some of this increasingly tedious discussion. It may perhaps surprise you that I did not search every single comment you've ever made on this forum to assure myself that this was the first time you'd written on the topic. You're in a far better position to know such facts than I am, so if you want them known, then bring them up.

[COLOR=Red][2][/COLOR] (Sigh) Please read what I wrote again. I said I "suspected" that your second reason was the primary one, observed that you had posted in reaction to a story involving interracial interaction, and then explicitly noted that I was imputing no motive to you. The "fact" that I found interesting was, as I wrote, "that it was story involving interracial interaction that spurred your post." That remains a fact -- JohnD wrote a story; you posted in reaction to it.

[COLOR=Red][3][/COLOR] If I dye my hair black, that doesn't mean I have black hair. That means I have dyed hair. And physical traits like red hair and dark skin are not in the same category as "accent, intelligence, or thugishness" (however one defines this last term). As for people who insist on racial categories and what they have to do or don't have to do, well, you'll have to ask them.

[COLOR=Red][4][/COLOR] I don't know for sure whether you are white. (And given the anonymous nature of cyberspace, even if you claimed to be a member of a certain race/ethnicity, I'd have no way of verifying the accuracy of the statement.) I made an inference based on what you'd written thus far. I note that you have studiously avoided denying the correctness of my inference. If that inference is wrong, you need only say so to set things straight. You've chosen not to do so. As to why you feel the need to be coy, I can't even guess.

As far as the conversation we're having, I'll be the first to confess that I'm not sure what it's about at this point. I'd just point out that I'm not the only person in this thread who's been confused about what you're trying to say. Perhaps you ought to consider the implications of that.

[blondYT]

The implication I find in that some people, even a majority of them, are confused by what I'm trying to say is this: By and large, white people have little experience thinking of or talking about race. Most don't have to, and don't choose to. The mere mention of the topic tends to set most into a flurry of defensive responses that would lead one to believe they don't understand English. Case in point: You seized on the fact that I mentioned red hair dye, but decided not to deal with the natural occurrences of red hair among black men that I mentioned. Or, more important, in one of your earlier posts you said " If someone enjoys being dominated, for example, giving him what he wants entails no disrespect." However, it is clear in the early volumes of Youth Camp that many of the people, including the narrator, are not enjoying themselves and are being injured. That's not giving them something they enjoy; that's taking the enjoyment they want with no regard for whether it does objective physical damage to others.

... To call your conclusion that I'm white an "inference" lends it a scientific air, but you still haven't told me on what it was based. More important, what would it do for you to hear that I am from Kansas or Kenya? Would you automatically agree with me if I'm nonwhite?

... At this point, you've turned nasty again. So I'll be turning away. But I will say that my fear that little valuable would come of my broaching this topic led me to hold off the first time. After all, no one responded at all to my first comment many months ago. So, for those (whatever our color) who don't care for poor characterizations that are poor because of some blockage in the author's imagination around a certain type of people, we'll just have to suck it up, I suppose. But that's how it usually is, in Hollywood, on television, in the Advocate, and, alas, on MMG as well. As far as racism goes, most white people want to say they are against it without having to do anything differently. And then, when their unchanged ways of living, spending, (or writing) are challenged, they then get all up-in-arms as if they are really the injured party. It's funny, like the gallows are funny. If this conversation is tedious for you, imagine how tedious it is for a nonwhite person to go through it every time she or he interacts with a majority-white group. Sorry for taking up your time with that. But if you don't want to go through the tedium, then your one black boyfriend doesn't give you a lifetime "I'm-not-racist" card. We're all bound up in how race plays out--regardless of our color--which is why I won't tell you mine. It's not just about racist "attitudes" which one can suppress very easily simply by not saying them out loud. It's also about unspoken assumptions. But it's also a whole legacy of historical stuff that we might not be personally responsible for, but live in: One person has a home to pass on and another doesn't because one's grandfather got help from the G.I. Bill and the other one's grandfather, also a G.I. got nothing. Ever notice that the prison system always grows right after a surge in black rights (after Reconstruction and after the Civil Rights movement)? What's prison labor but as close to unpaid labor (slavery) as you can legally get now? And who is the primary prison population? So whose European immigrant families got jobs and loans that someone's black American family couldn't? Sometimes no one living is at fault, but something still must be done more than being careful not to say THE N Word.

It's a shame that the experience of oppression doesn't automatically produce more alliances instead of just a dedication to get freedom for oneself or one's own group, however defined. But that's history everywhere. Perhaps one day we'll do better. But I, for one, am tired of gay white men who want points for claiming not to have racist attitudes but don't want to have to change anything or challenge any of their (white) friends to live any differently. I think we (human beings and gay men) can do better. But, hey, it's become obvious that what I hold here is clearly (whatever my racial designation) a *minority* opinion around here.

[musqlure]

Wow, dude, you clearly have issues that go way beyond this thread.

[blondYT]

Originally Posted by musqlure

Wow, dude, you clearly have issues that go way beyond this thread.

[COLOR=Blue]I thank you for talking with me. It's unfortunate things couldn't have turned out better. But I am glad there is a record of it.

best wishes,
blyte
[/COLOR]

[tojfrd7931]

Just a thought but maybe next time consider not using dark blue as your font color. Makes it very hard for us old folks to read!

[blondYT]

Originally Posted by tojfrd7931

Just a thought but maybe next time consider not using dark blue as your font color. Makes it very hard for us old folks to read!

I'm terribly sorry about that! I picked it at random and I'll pick a brighter color next time.

[b.spencer]

Originally Posted by blondYT

I want to ask a sincere question or two. I've been reading JohnD's Youth Camp series. It's definitely hot, don't get me wrong. But it leaves me wondering: Is it possible, or even good, to tell stories about our sexual fantasies without stereotypes? I don't mean only racial stereotypes. In the gay stories there's usually a strong association of masculinity with dominance and femininity with passivity. Usually on this site, it's like black men don't exist. So it's interesting to see black men in JohnD's story in the place of "dominant." (Even though, of course, we know that in fantasies, the sub and not the dominant is actually in control. The dominant gives the sub what he wants even though the dom appears to be in control).

I would assume everyone here thinks racism and sexism are wrong. Duh. So the question is: Is it alright to fantasize using rape, a gender hierarchy, and racial stereotype? And, if so, how do we take that from stories into the real world without becoming, well, rapists and racists?

Cheers~

As a man who participates in the real life D/s subculture in the gay world, this is a very interesting question for me, ie how these fantasies translate into the real world.

Not to sound terribly scary to the uninitiated, but I have witness and been a participant in some things in real live that would far and away cross the line if they were every posted here as part of a story. Muscle domination being just a small part of those things if I were to share them here.

BUT, there are always rules to the power exchange. ALWAYS. That is the difference between fantasy and reality. Trust is established and NEVER violated. Often in fantasy, there are no rules, the weak are exploited by the strong, the Dominant uses the submissive. Anyone really active in the D/s culture knows that in reality, this almost never happens. The relationship is symbiotic, not parasitic. Each gets what they need from each other. The submissive -- in the end -- really is in control of the actions themselves in the real world. Once that control is lost, those few times when the "almost never" happens -- things cross into the criminal, and such people are shunned from O/our society and justly prosecuted.

In real life D/s, the exchange of power, the rules, the expectations of situations, are ALWAYS agreed on beforehand. Boundaries are set and not crossed. Safe words and phrases are exchanged. It is all extremely structured, ritualized, governed. In a muscle domination and rape scene two friends of mine did, everything was structured BEFORE it happened. The submissive was give the chance to accept and decline aspects. In short, it wasn't a rape at all. It was as close as you would ever want to see to an actual rape, but even so, it was still safe, sane, and consensual. The same has gone for people who want muscular men to hit them, abuse them, do all sorts of things to them. (And just the reverse for some incredibly muscled men who want to be dominated by tiny dudes.)

Because, W/we know that Doms and subs are really two sides of the same coin, two very similar kinds of people, with similar needs. W/we are in the end, the same. And, I guess that is the point. In some parts of the D/s culture, what is fantasized about here IS brought into real life, as much as it possibly can be. BUT -- unlike the rapist, the racist, etc -- everything W/we do is safe, sane, and consensual. That is how it must translate. Anything else is purely criminal.

[blondYT]

Originally Posted by b.spencer

As a man who participates in the real life D/s subculture in the gay world, this is a very interesting question for me, ie how these fantasies translate into the real world.

Not to sound terribly scary to the uninitiated, but I have witness and been a participant in some things in real live that would far and away cross the line if they were every posted here as part of a story. Muscle domination being just a small part of those things if I were to share them here.

BUT, there are always rules to the power exchange. ALWAYS. That is the difference between fantasy and reality. Trust is established and NEVER violated. Often in fantasy, there are no rules, the weak are exploited by the strong, the Dominant uses the submissive. Anyone really active in the D/s culture knows that in reality, this almost never happens. The relationship is symbiotic, not parasitic. Each gets what they need from each other. The submissive -- in the end -- really is in control of the actions themselves in the real world. Once that control is lost, those few times when the "almost never" happens -- things cross into the criminal, and such people are shunned from O/our society and justly prosecuted.

In real life D/s, the exchange of power, the rules, the expectations of situations, are ALWAYS agreed on beforehand. Boundaries are set and not crossed. Safe words and phrases are exchanged. It is all extremely structured, ritualized, governed. In a muscle domination and rape scene two friends of mine did, everything was structured BEFORE it happened. The submissive was give the chance to accept and decline aspects. In short, it wasn't a rape at all. It was as close as you would ever want to see to an actual rape, but even so, it was still safe, sane, and consensual. The same has gone for people who want muscular men to hit them, abuse them, do all sorts of things to them. (And just the reverse for some incredibly muscled men who want to be dominated by tiny dudes.)

Because, W/we know that Doms and subs are really two sides of the same coin, two very similar kinds of people, with similar needs. W/we are in the end, the same. And, I guess that is the point. In some parts of the D/s culture, what is fantasized about here IS brought into real life, as much as it possibly can be. BUT -- unlike the rapist, the racist, etc -- everything W/we do is safe, sane, and consensual. That is how it must translate. Anything else is purely criminal.

[COLOR=Yellow]I couldn't thank you any more for your thoughtful and insightful post. This was such an education for me. I was talking to a friend today and wondering if -- at least in the West -- we all need a little D/s to feel free to get what we really want. Some of the research I do is on Melville -- he once said some things are so terribly true that no good man in his own proper character can utter or even hint at them.

Sounds to me like that's where role-playing comes in!

One of the most enduring masquerades in America, at least, has been racial impersonation -- blackface and (less often) yellowface, redface, and whiteface. Is there anything you can share with me about the racial dynamics of D/s -- or your opinion of how it plays out in the stories on our site? What about gender impersonation? Same questions.

Thanks so much. It means a lot to receive such a generous response.[/COLOR]

[b.spencer]

Originally Posted by blondYT

[COLOR=Yellow]I couldn't thank you any more for your thoughtful and insightful post. This was such an education for me. I was talking to a friend today and wondering if -- at least in the West -- we all need a little D/s to feel free to get what we really want. Some of the research I do is on Melville -- he once said some things are so terribly true that no good man in his own proper character can utter or even hint at them.

Sounds to me like that's where role-playing comes in!

One of the most enduring masquerades in America, at least, has been racial impersonation -- blackface and (less often) yellowface, redface, and whiteface. Is there anything you can share with me about the racial dynamics of D/s -- or your opinion of how it plays out in the stories on our site? What about gender impersonation? Same questions.

Thanks so much. It means a lot to receive such a generous response.[/COLOR]

The quotation from Melville is a very good one for the D/s community. In my experience, a great many are extremely successful, grounded, absolutely ordinary on the outside and to the outside world. For example, the Master who first introduced me to the Master/slave area of D/s is a public spokesperson for a government department. Highly respectable, in front of cameras and the press almost every day. And yet at home . . . Many submissive are of a similar bent, incredibly driven, successful, forceful personalities to the outside world while totally submissive in D/s. I myself know elementary school teacher, professors, lawyers, doctors, elected officals who are part of the D/s lifestyle that no one outside of the community knows about. In the same vein, students, day laborers, call center reps. It spans the gambit. But, that Master i mentioned explained it to me as the seeking of balance. Some highly successful people still feel totally out of control and search for something and/or someone who will submit to their control. Others are so in control, so responsible, in their lives that they seek out people who who will relieve them of that burden for awhile. It is seeking balance.

So, how does this relate to race relation, gender roles, etc? i am very sure that you would find some of the work of Dr. Guy Baldwin and Dr. Robert Rubel very enlightening. Both are professional psychologists and D/s sub-culture participants with decades of experience in both.

But, just from what i have seen -- the D/s community is very much a hodge-podge of backgrounds and personalities. Just like this site. Racial and gender lines are very much respected, even embraced to a large degree. For example, at the 2009 International Mr. Leather competition in Chicago, the pre-competition entertainment/crowd warmup was an African American male cross-dresser DJ. She was very much accepted and respected on stage. The leather community has its own very internal 'strife' (Old Guard vs. New Guard vs. the European viewpoint) that would look like race/gender tensions to the outside world.

Where you will see differences, and perhaps distasteful to outsiders, uses of those outside roles where humiliation is involved. Humiliation in general is a basic sexual turn-on in the D/s culture, no matter its stripe. So, a great many things are done to submissives that are seen by society and stereotype as 'humiliating' or 'degrading' for its sexual and relationship dynamic roles. Male subs will be forced to dress as females sometimes, or at least partly in female clothing, in appropriate semi-public places and in the home.

About some of John's stories where race plays a part. With the history of race in the US, you will see this taken into account and lived out as well. But never in something like blackface. That kind of impersonation would be viewed by almost all that i have ever met in the community as tasteless and degrading to people outside the community. There is an entire fetish class of skinhead and what looks like the neo-Nazi movement, without the hatred. It is the appearance that counts to them, the turn on. Their actions are typical D/s. People often assume i am part of that culture because of my shaved head, muscled body, the way i sometimes dress, but i am not.

Anyway, some African-american or other ethic minority dominants demand subs/slaves of European descent. 'Payback' and 'Reversal' is part of their dynamic. A Master i know in North Carolina, African American, demands only white boi/slaves, for example. Less often, you will see the reverse. But, virtually without exception, no one judges these relationships as degrading or harmful, as both parties agree to them.

Gender, as you might expect, comes out much more in straight D/s or mixed-couple-orientation D/s. There stereotypical gender roles are pushed to the limits or totally flipped on their head, depending on the relationship. Some in both the straight and gay D/s will even push the religious envelope to blasphemous areas, as we sometimes see in stories here, in real life God/worshipper relationships. Daddy/son has its own outsider sexual mores, as does Mother/girl (although much less common.)

So, its very individual. As individual as the tastes of people with muscle growth fetish have here and put in their stories. But, what you see here in stories often does have a real life counterpart in the D/s community somewhere. That is why the D/s community is so often very guarded about who is allowed in, past the general leather bar and the like. What goes on can be totally misunderstood, by people who are not prepared for it.

[blondYT]

[COLOR=Yellow]Once again, I thank you for your patient and informative responses. I am a bit squeamish when it comes to violence, so I don't know if I could actually "go there." But I definitely understand the dynamics better, as well as the requirement of consent.

I was a little amused to read that blackface would be seen as tasteless and degrading. Seems like everyone draws a line somewhere, no? By the way, I didn't mean the full-on wide-mouth, watermelon type of blackface. I just meant black face paint.

This last comment goes beyond the D/s community. I think it's wonderfully liberating, from a psychological and relational standpoint for the people involved. But I'm reminded of the carnaval celebrations in the Caribbean and New Orleans during slavery. On that day, the enslaved dressed up as kings and masters, but the next day it was back to being enslaved. So, in the social world beyond the D/s community, I think we have work to do... I'm just not sure whether the D/s dynamic offers a model for how to do it on a larger scale or is its own world with not much to teach the "other" world.

Again, thank you for sharing some of this with me, an interested and sympathetic outsider who -- who knows? -- may be on the inside some day!


PS: shaved head and muscle bodied white boy -- sounds hot!!!

[/COLOR]

Originally Posted by b.spencer

The quotation from Melville is a very good one for the D/s community. In my experience, a great many are extremely successful, grounded, absolutely ordinary on the outside and to the outside world. For example, the Master who first introduced me to the Master/slave area of D/s is a public spokesperson for a government department. Highly respectable, in front of cameras and the press almost every day. And yet at home . . . Many submissive are of a similar bent, incredibly driven, successful, forceful personalities to the outside world while totally submissive in D/s. I myself know elementary school teacher, professors, lawyers, doctors, elected officals who are part of the D/s lifestyle that no one outside of the community knows about. In the same vein, students, day laborers, call center reps. It spans the gambit. But, that Master i mentioned explained it to me as the seeking of balance. Some highly successful people still feel totally out of control and search for something and/or someone who will submit to their control. Others are so in control, so responsible, in their lives that they seek out people who who will relieve them of that burden for awhile. It is seeking balance.

So, how does this relate to race relation, gender roles, etc? i am very sure that you would find some of the work of Dr. Guy Baldwin and Dr. Robert Rubel very enlightening. Both are professional psychologists and D/s sub-culture participants with decades of experience in both.

But, just from what i have seen -- the D/s community is very much a hodge-podge of backgrounds and personalities. Just like this site. Racial and gender lines are very much respected, even embraced to a large degree. For example, at the 2009 International Mr. Leather competition in Chicago, the pre-competition entertainment/crowd warmup was an African American male cross-dresser DJ. She was very much accepted and respected on stage. The leather community has its own very internal 'strife' (Old Guard vs. New Guard vs. the European viewpoint) that would look like race/gender tensions to the outside world.

Where you will see differences, and perhaps distasteful to outsiders, uses of those outside roles where humiliation is involved. Humiliation in general is a basic sexual turn-on in the D/s culture, no matter its stripe. So, a great many things are done to submissives that are seen by society and stereotype as 'humiliating' or 'degrading' for its sexual and relationship dynamic roles. Male subs will be forced to dress as females sometimes, or at least partly in female clothing, in appropriate semi-public places and in the home.

About some of John's stories where race plays a part. With the history of race in the US, you will see this taken into account and lived out as well. But never in something like blackface. That kind of impersonation would be viewed by almost all that i have ever met in the community as tasteless and degrading to people outside the community. There is an entire fetish class of skinhead and what looks like the neo-Nazi movement, without the hatred. It is the appearance that counts to them, the turn on. Their actions are typical D/s. People often assume i am part of that culture because of my shaved head, muscled body, the way i sometimes dress, but i am not.

Anyway, some African-american or other ethic minority dominants demand subs/slaves of European descent. 'Payback' and 'Reversal' is part of their dynamic. A Master i know in North Carolina, African American, demands only white boi/slaves, for example. Less often, you will see the reverse. But, virtually without exception, no one judges these relationships as degrading or harmful, as both parties agree to them.

Gender, as you might expect, comes out much more in straight D/s or mixed-couple-orientation D/s. There stereotypical gender roles are pushed to the limits or totally flipped on their head, depending on the relationship. Some in both the straight and gay D/s will even push the religious envelope to blasphemous areas, as we sometimes see in stories here, in real life God/worshipper relationships. Daddy/son has its own outsider sexual mores, as does Mother/girl (although much less common.)

So, its very individual. As individual as the tastes of people with muscle growth fetish have here and put in their stories. But, what you see here in stories often does have a real life counterpart in the D/s community somewhere. That is why the D/s community is so often very guarded about who is allowed in, past the general leather bar and the like. What goes on can be totally misunderstood, by people who are not prepared for it.

[musqlure]

Originally Posted by blondYT

[COLOR=Blue]I thank you for talking with me. It's unfortunate things couldn't have turned out better. But I am glad there is a record of it.

best wishes,
blyte
[/COLOR]

Anytime. One suggestion. If you don't want people to assume you're white, next time choose a screen name other than "blondYT" (phon. "blond whitey").

[blondYT]

So, you've changed your mind? I'm *not* white now? Before you were so sure I was. Well, you know what they say about assuming. And, methinks that was the topic all along, YT

blyte

Originally Posted by musqlure

Anytime. One suggestion. If you don't want people to assume you're white, next time choose a screen name other than "blondYT" (phon. "blond whitey").

[musqlure]

Originally Posted by blondYT

So, you've changed your mind? I'm *not* white now? Before you were so sure I was. Well, you know what they say about assuming. And, methinks that was the topic all along, YT

blyte

Jesus Christ, dude, what is your problem? You objected to my assuming that you're white. Presumably, if you actually were white, being thought of as white wouldn't disturb you, since it would merely reflect reality. So when you jumped all over me for assuming that a guy who calls himself "blond whitey" was, well, you know, white, I figured you were upset because I had made an assumption that was contrary to fact.

Of course, you could settle the whole matter by just being honest about who you are, but as you've proven time and again, honesty is not a word in your vocabulary. I really don't know what kind of fucked up racial issues you have, but from now on, you're going to have to try acting them out on somebody else. I'm done.

And, by the way, nobody knows what was "the topic all along." As many have commented, your writing is too incoherent for anyone to discern whatever it is you may be trying to get at.

[blondYT]

Such vitriol! I had a lovely conversation with b. spencer and much less vicious conversations with some others. As Jesse Jackson used to say, they are somebody. It's not that "nobody" understood the point; it's that you and I don't communicate the same way. That shouldn't require all the vitriol. As for me, I'm having a hearty chuckle: You, who insisted to me that this site was for fiction, have no standing to demand that suddenly I be real world. What's next? Names and addresses so we can all be called before McCarthy as sexual deviants and enemies of the state?

What you have been unable to admit and what I haven't the power to help you with, is that you began a whole story about me as a white guy who was racist for picking on stories in which black men dominate white men. You held on to that story despite information to the contrary -- even going so far as to say that "denying" I was white would not disprove your assumption, since I could be lying. Now, you are equally convinced that I am a nonwhite person lying about being white. It's a bit like a cynic's history of the office of the presidency: We've gone from a bunch of racist white guys to a "lyin' African" -- to quote the birthers.


All the while you've claimed to be perfectly capable of discerning reality from fiction and of seeing things without a racial lens. You didn't live up to that. I happen to be one who thinks that no one can and so it's not necessarily a big deal. But the fit you've worked yourself into now says far more about you than it does about me. What it says about you, I'll leave to you and your therapist/higher power/partner/whathaveyou.

peace and light--
blyte

Originally Posted by musqlure

Jesus Christ, dude, what is your problem? You objected to my assuming that you're white. Presumably, if you actually were white, being thought of as white wouldn't disturb you, since it would merely reflect reality. So when you jumped all over me for assuming that a guy who calls himself "blond whitey" was, well, you know, white, I figured you were upset because I had made an assumption that was contrary to fact.

Of course, you could settle the whole matter by just being honest about who you are, but as you've proven time and again, honesty is not a word in your vocabulary. I really don't know what kind of fucked up racial issues you have, but from now on, you're going to have to try acting them out on somebody else. I'm done.

And, by the way, nobody knows what was "the topic all along." As many have commented, your writing is too incoherent for anyone to discern whatever it is you may be trying to get at.

[TheMM]

Well now, this is rather heated, isn't it?

I've watched this thread very carefully. I've realized three things.

One, you are quite right. In many ways, JohnD's story was portraying an African American in a negative light, BUT, that does not automatically make him, or any of us, racist. However, that does not remove us from furthering stereotypes. In our lives, every last one of us here, have, at least once, thought of someone in a stereotype. It did not have to be racial; it could have been socially, or dealing with a clique, or perhaps my personal favorite, a religious stereotype. In short, we stereotype, but we are not racist.

Two, whether you're right or wrong, often times in your posts BlondYT, you have greatly avoided the questions asked. It is not that you avoided them, is is 'why' you avoided them. I do not know that answer, but you have willingly hid information from us dealing with your argument. For example, the whole "white or not" issue that has been in several of the posts in this thread. By hiding who you are and being honest, you have actually kept people from being honest (as in, posting) about this very topic as well.

Three, several times against Musqlure, you reacted strongly against him, anytime he asked for the above information. In some ways, it seems you were wanting to goad him on. Almost like you wanted him to get mad, so you could easily and quickly dismiss any argument he put up as him just being angry. Even in the earlier posts, you said that he had "turned nasty" even though by many forum standards, it was just a post.



So that is what I have realized. Argue them as you will. But I ask this thing of you:

Write an MG story for us. But write it so that is has absolutely no stereotypes whatsoever within. This should not be a difficult feat, especially in the actual idea of muscle growth. There's plenty of those ideas around.

[blondYT]

Well, the MM, thank you for chiming in. I need to be brief. I'd be interested to know what you think the difference is between "furthering stereotypes" and "being racist"? As for me, I try not to use the word stereotypes. The question to me is about furthering equality. So the issue isn't who we "are" but what we do. We are all caught up in a world that has been affected by racial inequality, in my opinion "not being racist" is 1) not possible and 2) not the point. Doing something to further racial equality doesn't require being perfectly non-racist, it just requires doing a better job anyway.

So, in terms of writing stories, how might that look? Well, it has nothing to do with whether or not black characters are treated, as you put it, "in a negative light." The question I ask is whether or not the reason they are good/bad/muscular/violent/whatever is explained only by reference to some all-determining blackness. Most characters on here develop muscular powers by some occurence -- magic potion, science experiment, genetic freakishness, cum-eating, kryptonite (!). It's a little weird to meet the black muscle guns who are muscular (despite living in complete poverty) simply because they're poor.

Most white characters get to do or be something other than white -- they get to be bears, or fratboys, or what-have-you. (Note, arpeejay just wrote a story featuring something unexpected: A black "attitude queen" who also played the role of "fratboy." Now that's not run-of-the-mill.) Gay porn has fourteen thousand categories for white performers, everyone else is usually just characterized under their race -- black, latino, asian.

So, what I'm getting at, then, is not "presenting negative stereotypes" or presenting "the opposite of stereotypes." The opposite of a stereotype only makes sense in relation to the initial prejudice. (e.g. Obama's eloquence is only surprising if one has already assumed there isn't a tradition of eloquence among black Americans.) So, it doesn't do any better to say, I'm going to make a black thug, but he'll surprise everyone by being an astrophysicist.

What I would look for (and try to write) are stories in which people are their racial designation and are other things, too, at the same time. A black character who wasn't conscious of their race would be a fool, but one who exists only "to be black" is the fantasy of someone with little knowledge and less imagination. Frankly, it would also be a great step forward to see more white characters who recognize themselves as such. Nonwhites aren't the only ones with a racial category, porn categories aside.
------------

As far as I'm concerned, musqlure tied himself in knots. I wanted to get some feedback relating to some questions. With the major exception of b. spencer, the level of defensiveness I encountered even raising my questions prevented me from being heard. My question was how do we enjoy the things we enjoy without participating in racism and sexism. Most of the responses I got were: 1) Censorship! 2) They're just stories. 3) I'm not racist! 4) You're the racist!

Those responses come from people's own backgrounds and life stories. That's fine. But they weren't of much help to me. And since I could tell that I wasn't going to be recognized and listened to, I decided not to offer any more of myself to be twisted. I had two choices: Be white and be what musqlure first imagined: a racist white guy who only has problems with dominant black men. Or be nonwhite and be an oversensitive person who is ruining the fun because of my own obsession with race (as another poster put it). Both of those were ways of shutting down the discussion, heaving a sigh of relief that *that's* done with, we know why the troublemaker did this. I didn't want that to happen. What would you have done, if you were in a situation in which telling someone "who you are" would just authorize them not to listen to you?

Musqlure (among others) treated the questions as unworthy, indicative of a problem on my end. For the most part, I asked him questions designed to get him to look at what he was saying. If that's goading, I'd like to know what I goaded him into doing... Clearly, I'm more powerful than I realized!

I am glad to have had a real exchange with b. spencer. You'll note the major difference in our posts. He wasn't defensive and we had a very informative conversation. I am happy to have gotten at least that from this endeavor.

I'll simply close by saying it amazes me that most white people have the privilege not to have to think about racism (as they aren't usually its targets) but still think they are experts on it. Actually, what I see among that particular group is not expertise but a lot of defensiveness. I'm glad to have gotten other information from a less defensive source.

As for writing a story, first I wouldn't ever claim that I could write a story without a "type" of some sort -- stereo- or otherwise! But posting a story is certainly something I intend to try.

This hasn't been brief. Apologies for that.

blyte

Originally Posted by TheMM

Well now, this is rather heated, isn't it?

I've watched this thread very carefully. I've realized three things.

One, you are quite right. In many ways, JohnD's story was portraying an African American in a negative light, BUT, that does not automatically make him, or any of us, racist. However, that does not remove us from furthering stereotypes. In our lives, every last one of us here, have, at least once, thought of someone in a stereotype. It did not have to be racial; it could have been socially, or dealing with a clique, or perhaps my personal favorite, a religious stereotype. In short, we stereotype, but we are not racist.

Two, whether you're right or wrong, often times in your posts BlondYT, you have greatly avoided the questions asked. It is not that you avoided them, is is 'why' you avoided them. I do not know that answer, but you have willingly hid information from us dealing with your argument. For example, the whole "white or not" issue that has been in several of the posts in this thread. By hiding who you are and being honest, you have actually kept people from being honest (as in, posting) about this very topic as well.

Three, several times against Musqlure, you reacted strongly against him, anytime he asked for the above information. In some ways, it seems you were wanting to goad him on. Almost like you wanted him to get mad, so you could easily and quickly dismiss any argument he put up as him just being angry. Even in the earlier posts, you said that he had "turned nasty" even though by many forum standards, it was just a post.



So that is what I have realized. Argue them as you will. But I ask this thing of you:

Write an MG story for us. But write it so that is has absolutely no stereotypes whatsoever within. This should not be a difficult feat, especially in the actual idea of muscle growth. There's plenty of those ideas around.

[b.spencer]

Sorry, it took me a while to get back to you. I too have found the exchanges very interesting, and they are too a reflection of where our community has been historically and is still is now, both to our mutual benefit and detriment. (More later on).

I can understand the squeamishness about the violent parts of the D/s subculture, or at least certain parts of it. To be perfectly honest, there are things that I know go on that I would never participate in, and what I have seen and participated in now is something that would never have dreamed I would have before I started learning about the "real" lifestyle. (I say that because there is always a bit of make-believe in it, even in the real life community. How many leather Doms are in leather 24/7? How many do you see dressed in harness and assless chaps at work, LOL?). Never feel bad about limits you see yourself have. Sometimes in the community, they may be pressed, but they are always respected in the end.

I agree with you about how limited the D/s experience could be to those outside, and I think that goes to the larger point of all of this line of discussion I have read here. Rather than view our differences in race, gender, etc. most of us view ourselves and others in the community through what unites us, our mutual symbiotic natures and the structure of conduct that goes with it. That doesn't mean there are individuals who do not like each other, that goes with the territory. But, in a great many way, that respect is not applicable to people outside the community.

What I see here in this thread -- in the gay community at large, as another person said in another thread, each one of us is scarred. We have all been stigmatized and rejected by some members of society, by our religions, sometimes by our families. We have all been victims of discrimination and stereotyping. (Personal Example -- When I as a teenager in a fundamentalist religious home, past the religious teachings and feelings I knew my family had toward 'faggots' was what I knew about gay people. I only had the effeminate stereotype to judge being gay by, and I knew that none of that was me. I was held back in starting to accept myself by a social and religious stereptype of gays. There are others I am affected by now inside the community, but for another day)

We respond to it in two basic ways -- we either become insular, 'no one can understand because they have not gone through what i have' or we try to embrace what happens. The problem is that all too often, once we come out, we who embrace what happened or at least try to, fall into the trap of associating only with people 'like us.' The muscle guys, the worshippers, the bears, the twinks, and unfortunately, those of the same racial background as we are. We do not expand what we really know about others as we become self-involved in our own sub-group. I have seen and read a number of reports lately about the gay black and latino communities in the US and how many barriers exist between us, partly based in prejudice. I think what you are observing in the stories here is a reflection of the 'sub group" who posts here, which is far and away 'white muscle and white worshipper' dominated.

When we are confronted by that tho, the automatic reaction is to remember our trials of discrimination and hatred shown toward us and reject that we can be that way. We cannot be. But, honestly, we are. Think about how much infighting, sniping, internal back biting based on what is important to us and us alone, hurts others in the community and holds us all back. But, we must confront it. We must take a look at what stereotypes and prejudice we accept and learn better from them.

Now, i am not calling out anyone on this board or anywhere else. It is systemic through many individuals and groups. Just because we are gay does not mean we are insulated from the ills of our planetary society.

How do we combat it? By practicing what we preach, by truly embracing our differences. By not judging others based on what we think 'must be" because they self-identify as 'x' or 'y.' Can we take some liberties in our fiction that we cannot in real life? Perhaps, but like what we can learn about general societal attitudes of a time period from watching and reading its literature and later motion pictures -- "Birth of a Nation" for example, as an example of white American thought in the early 1900's.

So, lets take a real look at what we write and watch in our community, dispassionately, objectively. Do we really like what we see? We may not and perhaps should not become so hyper-PC as to make demands on what we personally find sexually attractive. But, maybe it will give us a better insight about the personal biases we have in ourselves.

PS -- Thanks for the comp. I have pics in the watch me grow section and you can tell me if they measure up to the description I gave of myself. :-)

Originally Posted by blondYT

[COLOR=Yellow]Once again, I thank you for your patient and informative responses. I am a bit squeamish when it comes to violence, so I don't know if I could actually "go there." But I definitely understand the dynamics better, as well as the requirement of consent.

I was a little amused to read that blackface would be seen as tasteless and degrading. Seems like everyone draws a line somewhere, no? By the way, I didn't mean the full-on wide-mouth, watermelon type of blackface. I just meant black face paint.

This last comment goes beyond the D/s community. I think it's wonderfully liberating, from a psychological and relational standpoint for the people involved. But I'm reminded of the carnaval celebrations in the Caribbean and New Orleans during slavery. On that day, the enslaved dressed up as kings and masters, but the next day it was back to being enslaved. So, in the social world beyond the D/s community, I think we have work to do... I'm just not sure whether the D/s dynamic offers a model for how to do it on a larger scale or is its own world with not much to teach the "other" world.

Again, thank you for sharing some of this with me, an interested and sympathetic outsider who -- who knows? -- may be on the inside some day!


PS: shaved head and muscle bodied white boy -- sounds hot!!!

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[ActionBastard]

[COLOR=#000000][COLOR=white][COLOR=white]This[/COLOR] is an interesting thread, having skimmed through; I think I'll jump in right here because I think it's the meatiest part.[/COLOR]

Originally Posted by blondYT

[COLOR=white]Now, at this point, I'll confess that I imagine that you are white. I say this only because your statement ("no one" accuses a white guy who dates only whites of racism) misses a world where that's talked about as racist all the time. See [/COLOR][COLOR=windowtext][COLOR=white]http://www.splicetoday.com/sex/don-t-fight-interracial-relationships[/COLOR][/COLOR][COLOR=white]. Just the tip of the iceberg, btw: There are whole anthologies talking about -- for lack of a better term -- negrophobia in the gay community.[/COLOR]

[COLOR=white]IMO, refusing to date blacks (just for example) and dating exclusively blacks are two sides of a coin. Both have an image of the black thug in mind -- the one rejects it as beyond their social realm, the other embraces the taboo. but they're both reacting to the same image.[/COLOR]

[COLOR=white]I would hope that -- agree or disagree -- you could do so pleasantly. Otherwise, hey -- have a good life.[/COLOR]

[COLOR=white]I disagree with this. Let?s use prejudice instead of racism because everyone's IQ drops 40 points when racism is mentioned... [/COLOR]

[COLOR=white]I understand the temptation to assume prejudice when a person is vehement about dating exclusively interracially or intraracially, but I don't think it's always going to be accurate.[/COLOR]

[COLOR=white]When we're talking about men of color who date white men exclusively, and tend towards things like colored contacts, and hair lightening and straightening, or white men who exclusively date men of color and demand the "thug" stereotype, or mimic it themselves, then yeah, I'll agree that more than likely there are some racial concepts at play that some might not consider healthy.[/COLOR]

[COLOR=white]However, I don't make that same assumption about a white guy who is not interested in non-white men or men of color who are not interested in white men. Despite the arguments of some there are differences, perhaps shallow ones, between those who are or identify with one race as opposed to another. Those differences aren't monolithic, and may be totally absent depending on when and where a person gained their experiences. That doesn?t mean that a white guy who isn't in a hurry to date a black man assumes that all black men are going to rob, beat and rape him.[/COLOR]

[COLOR=white]What's more, if as your article states, we're talking about white guys who consider anyone other than blacks, or the converse, then they're responding to the stereotypes of black men or white men and are thus victims of the power structure we're talking about. Accusing them of racism is myopic and counterproductive.[/COLOR]

[COLOR=white]Getting back to the stories, all of us are impacted by stereotypes if only because some of choose to rally against them, so I wouldn't assume that stories that lack black characters or put them into stereotypical roles are evidence of hatred. First I'll assume failure of exposure, then of imagination, and probably a couple other things before I go there. [/COLOR]

[COLOR=white]As for domination and violence, there are those that would argue that these things are intrinsic to sex period, I would agree. So the appearance of either or both, in quantities that I might not like, doesn?t mean the author is a rapist, or that I'll become one if I get off on it.[/COLOR]
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[blondYT]

I'm not quite clear who you're talking to ActionBastard, as I have not used many of the words you use below... stereotype, hatred, etc.

In fact, I used exactly the phrase "failure of imagination."

So, if your post was directed at me, there's not much else to say. There is, however, a question: Having only skimmed, who do you think you're schooling

Originally Posted by ActionBastard

[COLOR=#000000][COLOR=white][COLOR=white]This[/COLOR] is an interesting thread, having skimmed through; I think I'll jump in right here because I think it's the meatiest part.[/COLOR]



[COLOR=white]I disagree with this. Let?s use prejudice instead of racism because everyone's IQ drops 40 points when racism is mentioned... [/COLOR]

[COLOR=white]I understand the temptation to assume prejudice when a person is vehement about dating exclusively interracially or intraracially, but I don't think it's always going to be accurate.[/COLOR]

[COLOR=white]When we're talking about men of color who date white men exclusively, and tend towards things like colored contacts, and hair lightening and straightening, or white men who exclusively date men of color and demand the "thug" stereotype, or mimic it themselves, then yeah, I'll agree that more than likely there are some racial concepts at play that some might not consider healthy.[/COLOR]

[COLOR=white]However, I don't make that same assumption about a white guy who is not interested in non-white men or men of color who are not interested in white men. Despite the arguments of some there are differences, perhaps shallow ones, between those who are or identify with one race as opposed to another. Those differences aren't monolithic, and may be totally absent depending on when and where a person gained their experiences. That doesn?t mean that a white guy who isn't in a hurry to date a black man assumes that all black men are going to rob, beat and rape him.[/COLOR]

[COLOR=white]What's more, if as your article states, we're talking about white guys who consider anyone other than blacks, or the converse, then they're responding to the stereotypes of black men or white men and are thus victims of the power structure we're talking about. Accusing them of racism is myopic and counterproductive.[/COLOR]

[COLOR=white]Getting back to the stories, all of us are impacted by stereotypes if only because some of choose to rally against them, so I wouldn't assume that stories that lack black characters or put them into stereotypical roles are evidence of hatred. First I'll assume failure of exposure, then of imagination, and probably a couple other things before I go there. [/COLOR]

[COLOR=white]As for domination and violence, there are those that would argue that these things are intrinsic to sex period, I would agree. So the appearance of either or both, in quantities that I might not like, doesn?t mean the author is a rapist, or that I'll become one if I get off on it.[/COLOR]
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