Popularity of Snuff Stories?

[MuscleHintz]

For those who don't know, snuff muscle is basically when a character (preferably, a big, buff musclegod) kills his victims in brutal and violent ways.

Obviously, a GOOD muscle snuff story would focus mostly on the muscle aspect, but it wouldn't shy away from violence and gore either.

So how does the board feel about that? I want to have as much feedback as possible for my future stories. For those who want some examples of hot muscle snuff stories that feature mega-sized musclegods dominating weaker men, read some of Chip Masterson's stuff. It's good, really good.

[tattcub]

I think the aspects of Snuff muscle stories are about power and domination...
Some can be very violent and gory but most of the stories revel in the control and domination sides...

We all have our dark sides somewhere...As long as fantasy and reality stay in their appropriate places...

doesn't really do much for me but then I like stories where intelligent assholes get turned into dumbass muscle whores so who am I to criticise ?

[cutlerfan]

Gore and violence and especially vore are just plain gross. Intelligent assholes becoming dumbass muscle whores is awesome; particularly if they are gentle and easy to control!

[Yachirobi]

Snuff is disgusting. It's one thing to have characters being violent in a story but when the purpose of that violence is to get someone off, the very idea of it makes me ill. I'm not going to start any petitions or flame people for it but, personally, I don't want any of that garbage on this board.

[iceman75]

I don't mind muscle snuff, as long as the description is really well done. Chip's stories are good examples. I like Chip's stuff and I've liked what I've read from you so far Musclehintz. As far as those of you who don't like it, hey I'm all for having differing opinions, but I'm not into censorship by any means, so if there is a hint or a warning that the story could include snuff, simply don't read it, and then you don't have to worry about it.

[ydt81]

I won't sit here and lie though, as tattcub implied, everyone's got a dark side and everyone that's been reading for more than a few weeks has skated over something by a fantastic author that they would never have approved of otherwise... I personally prefer (accidental) violence or intense aggression more than snuff/gore per se, but it can really depend on description and author. In principle here are plenty of erotic fantasies that people play out online that hey would not enjoy or condone in reality. It's strange but true if you think about it honestly.

I'll admit that occasionally, to get my aggression-fix, I have to resort to female muscle stories because for whatever reason the authors here tend to capitalize on domination themes more often. I don't think love and roughness/rough sex are mutually exclusive.... (if that makes sense)
As far as snuff goes, I hate censorship but will say that no matter how I've tried it, death in Erotica hits like a sour note in the middle of a symphony. I don't mind bullying themes; messed up relationships; even near-death experiences, etc. But, no matter what each victim is guilty of there's a line that gets crossed when lives are treated like they are worthless.


Either way, I think it's a good idea to insert warnings/tags at the beginnings of stories. Something like 'this story contains "mild violence" or "mild aggression", etc. '

TO BE FAIR sometimes a warning can unccesarily scare off readers that might otherwise enjoy the given story. If the death in the story is more about plot device than fetish the warning might be counter-productive.....

[ydt81]

I'm no sure what option to vote for. Honestly, I prefer some mildly violent form of domination/aggression, but death isn't my thing. Also that level of aggression must be used sparingly or it becomes ineffective to the plot.

[nypup2train]

Like ydt81, I really don't feel like any of the options in the poll accurately reflect my feelings on the issue — though my own take is fairly different.

I can't really make a statement about "snuff" as a genre. How I feel about it is entirely dependent on the individual story, and how it's used in the story. I'm neither "into it" nor "against it"... but I'm not ashamed to admit that I can get into it, when it's used well in a story.

I'm not in the "It's an automatic turnoff" group, like Yachirobi. I certainly understand that group! I have my own list of disqualifying parameters for stories; snuff just doesn't happen to be on it.

(I absolutely feel that any stories that delve into snuff should carry prominent notices/warnings to that effect, so that anyone who has a problem with it can move on to something more to their taste. ...And, by the same token, I think the anti-snuff crowd should then do so, silently, without feeling the need to express their disinterest in the story comments. Aside from this poll, on an individual story basis, nobody gives a shit if you're not into something. Just don't read it! ...This goes for all genres, not just snuff stories.)

Aaaanyway... as to my own personal reaction to snuff in stories: It depends how it's used. Like I said, if it's used well, I admit it can be kinda hot. (Remember, it's just a story!) I can't think of any examples, but there have been some.

The line between "used well" and not, generally, is the focus of the story. There are two types of stories involving snuff: The muscle growth/domination/theft/etc story which goes to extremes that happen to include snuff, vs. the blatant and total fetishization of death, where there might happen to be some filler plot crap to read through before you get to the snuff.

You all know the latter type of story, where the entire focus from the very beginning is on the death scene, usually lavishly (and creepily) described, whereas everything that goes on in the story is nothing but a perfunctory and half-assed means to reaching that end. ...Those kind of stories, personally, I find offputting, even a bit disturbing.

But if a well-written story with a purpose other than offing one or more of its characters happens to include the demise of one or more of those characters, I'm not against it. I can even get off on it, sometimes.

[nypup2train]

Originally Posted by ydt81

TO BE FAIR sometimes a warning can unccesarily scare off readers that might otherwise enjoy the given story. If the death in the story is more about plot device than fetish the warning might be counter-productive.....

I disagree with you on that point. Tough titties, if people avoid the story because of the warning ? that's entirely the point behind it. The warning is always appropriate, because of some readers' strong feelings on the topic. If the death isn't the entire focus of the story, then then snuff may be counterproductive to the author's goals, because they have to know it will drive some people away. It's up to the author to decide if that's an acceptable risk, and whether they feel their story necessitates it.)

[ljobenza]

I can't stand bdsm, scat, watersports and all of those disturbing things.

Getting off of people being violently murdered? That's a different league of it's own.

There's being dark and there's just being a psychopath especially when the story treats it in a positive light.

[Lucas88]

Death is part of life and I enjoy a good murder mystery as well as the next person...HOWEVER..."snuff" has always implied gratuitous killing for the sake of killing as THE major plot theme and I find that disturbing.

There's an argument that fantasy and reality are two different things so, no harm no foul. The problem is, we're becoming more and more aware of a large number of people out there that can't separate fantasy from reality so there are some fantasies I'm not interested in reading.

[Curiosity]

This is going a little off-topic, although still in the same general ballpark from my point of view. I HATE when rape is used in stories in any capacity. If it's actually rape, I don't want to read about it in erotica, and I don't think any sane person would. If it's consensual between the characters and the author is just using the word rape as a way of denoting raw, dirty, rough sex, having the word there leaves a bad taste. Also, rape as a pre-story plot-catalyst bothers me, because even in stories where the focal character is meant to be a bad person who the audience wants to fall from his high perch, I find rape to be too strong and often inappropriate. If your character is a rapist, throw him in jail. Muscle theft is not the proper punishment for that. There's a story on the NCMC (I can't remember offhand what it's called or who wrote it) that throws in a rape as an afterthought - the guy is already an major asshole who needs to be taken down a peg, but the other guy throws out "and you raped my sister." Seriously, why? You don't need to make a guy a rapist in order for your audience to dislike him.

No offense to the author of that story if he's on here, I just personally disliked that plot point a lot.

[WhoDunIt]

I'm with most of you guys, I do not like snuff, scatt/piss(seriously?!), Vore, even popping/dismemberment without the ability to reconstitute (inflation, obviously or being turned into something like silly putty) either. If it's a physically violent murder being used as a device to an erotic end, hell no........don't care if it's muscle growth, breast and/or penis expansion, various forms of inflation, ect, when someone gets crushed, popped, ect, I'll stop reading as soon as it becomes apparent that the story will end that way. As violent as this year has been in real life, I really don't want to be trying to get off on more violence, even if it is fictional and in some cases, not even humanly possible!

[I<3Muscles]

I find some of the responses to this thread to be appalling, to be honest. I'm new here, and I'm not entirely familiar with the general consesus on what's okay and what isn't, but isn't turning "Intelligent assholes into dumbass muscle whores" just another form of murder? You're killing off a person and replacing him with your fantasy. In real life, would you do that? Kill a person and rewrite his entire life as your jerk-off fantasy just because you dislike them? That's pretty disgusting, to be quite honest, and just as bad as snuff IMO.

We all have our own tastes and preferences, but before we start throwing around words like "psychopath", I think some of us have to look at our own selves, first, don't we?

-I<3Muscles, who has never written a story before and appreciates every author on this site regardless of their personal fantasies.

[Curiosity]

That's entirely valid, I<3Muscles. In real-world terms, 99% of the fantasies in erotica are immoral and likely to be illegal. However, IMO the difference between snuff and transformation fantasies is the fact that transformation is fantasy only, whether it's muscle growth, loss of intelligence, or turning a straight guy into a gay slut. Hopefully, no one reading those stories would ever consider trying to bring that into the real world (except maybe as roleplaying).

The way I see snuff though, is as the transfer of a gruesome real-world truth (killing) into a story that's meant to get people off. If someone dies as part of the back-story to give a character his personality, that's different, but when a character kills someone as part of the action of an erotic story, especially as a display of newly acquired strength, it makes me sick. I'd much rather read about guys who become slutty bodybuilders than guys who feel the need to crush windpipes and throw smaller men around like ragdolls until they die.

[wimpymuscles]

Originally Posted by ljobenza

I can't stand bdsm, scat, watersports and all of those disturbing things.

Getting off of people being violently murdered? That's a different league of it's own.

There's being dark and there's just being a psychopath especially when the story treats it in a positive light.

I have to agree 100% with you on your point.

[iceman75]

I will say that if you don't understand the difference between fantasy and reality, then you have problems. If you think being turned on by reading about someone killing someone else by their muscles and strength means that person has desires to kill himself, is a psychopath, I think you're taking things way too seriously. I have a great number of stories with muscle snuff in it that turns me on a great deal, stories by Chip Masterson for instance, does that mean that if I read too many of these stories, I'm crazy, that I'm liable to become a raving lunatic? No! It's a fetish, much like loving hairy torsos, or incest or enjoying a body part over another body part is a fetish. Like I said in my previous post on the subject, as fetishes go, muscle snuff is not for everyone, but it is a fetish that still does appeal to some people in the muscle growth community, and if there are any stories being put up that deal with that fetish and has a warning on it, you have the option to JUST NOT READ IT. It's not that hard to understand, really. "Look, this warning says this story contains muscle snuff, well I don't like muscle snuff, so I'm not going to read it." Disgust averted.

[brutus]

I believe strongly in the Law of Attraction. Many people will laugh at me, but I do strongly believe that our thoughts do create reality when clearly focused. Teal Scott did a great video:

video

on the subject of horor films that I think really tackles this tread's theme very well, and very thoroughly. I say to be careful with what you put into your head. This is a free-will universe, but please beware of your thoughts, and what ideas & images you surround yourself with. Sometimes a vampire storie can be fun, and some death is inevitable, but I do try to keep it under control.

[Rarity]

Like any form of snuff stories/films, that kind of thing is widely frowned upon for obvious reasons. I think it depends on the story though, and the detail (or rather, lack of detail) given to get the point across without being too graphic. If it's about a muscle guy killing a morally unsound, terrible, and evil person then that's a-OK. Everyone will ring the town's bell and rejoice that a lame piece of shit was killed. Just like in real life! I don't think that would be considered snuff though. Snuff = detailed imagery of the murder, so if there's no gore. . . Then it's probably not snuff. Kill an innocent guy and everyone wants to kill the guy who caused the innocent guy's death, along with wanting to kill the bad guy's accomplices.

Here's some examples of what people may find somewhat acceptable~


Possibly good usage:
Bad Bastard Bob runs around, steals muscles and ruins the life of many men without giving two shits. BOOOOOOO AT BAD GUY JON! The most recent guy he fucks with, Awesome Asskicking Andrew, decides to fight back. AAA winds up getting more muscle, and in a fit of well deserved rage (and "giving one" to BBB for all the bad things he done to all the previous guys), he DESTROYS BBB. The amount of detail one would tolerate varies from person to person, but a good old fashioned "crushing with force" seems appropriate without needing to go into detail about blood, ripping limbs off, and so on.

This would not really fall into the snuff category unless it's a detailed murder. The main focus would all about the snuff since that's the real climax of the story. A gross. . . Detailed. . . "Climax". . . To each his or her own, I guess.


Very likely to be a bad but properly done usage:
The story a majority of people would absolutely hate is when Bad Bastard Bob gets big and uses his stolen muscles to brutally murder Awesome Asskicking Andrew and the guys like him. The higher the amount of gory detail, the easier it will be for people to spit on that story and its writer.

Or there doesn't need to be a backstory at all since, like I stated, snuff's main focus in any story is about killing.



It also depends on the community that the story is written for. If it's for gore lovers then they would obviously love it. If it's for the average community of muscle growth lovers, then it's very likely they will not like it. The farthest most people go to tolerating "bad things" is muscle theft + bullying + life ruining, and even that's a hit or a miss type of thing even though nobody dies; it all depends on if the guy really deserves it or not. Most of the time the justification is just plain shitty, but hey, that's what people are into so. . . Eh, whatever floats their goat boats in the moat.

[MuscleHintz]

Originally Posted by ★whim★

Like any form of snuff stories/films, that kind of thing is widely frowned upon for obvious reasons. I think it depends on the story though, and the detail (or rather, lack of detail) given to get the point across without being too graphic. If it's about a muscle guy killing a morally unsound, terrible, and evil person then that's a-OK. Everyone will ring the town's bell and rejoice that a lame piece of shit was killed. Just like in real life! I don't think that would be considered snuff though. Snuff = detailed imagery of the murder, so if there's no gore. . . Then it's probably not snuff. Kill an innocent guy and everyone wants to kill the guy who caused the innocent guy's death, along with wanting to kill the bad guy's accomplices.

Here's some examples of what people may find somewhat acceptable~

Possibly good usage:
Bad Bastard Bob runs around, steals muscles and ruins the life of many men without giving two shits. BOOOOOOO AT BAD GUY JON! The most recent guy he fucks with, Awesome Asskicking Andrew, decides to fight back. AAA winds up getting more muscle, and in a fit of well deserved rage (and "giving one" to BBB for all the bad things he done to all the previous guys), he DESTROYS BBB. The amount of detail one would tolerate varies from person to person, but a good old fashioned "crushing with force" seems appropriate without needing to go into detail about blood, ripping limbs off, and so on.

This would not really fall into the snuff category unless it's a detailed murder. The main focus would all about the snuff since that's the real climax of the story. A gross. . . Detailed. . . "Climax". . . To each his or her own, I guess.

Very likely to be a bad but properly done usage:
The story a majority of people would absolutely hate is when Bad Bastard Bob gets big and uses his stolen muscles to brutally murder Awesome Asskicking Andrew and the guys like him. The higher the amount of gory detail, the easier it will be for people to spit on that story and its writer.

Or there doesn't need to be a backstory at all since, like I stated, snuff's main focus in any story is about killing.

It also depends on the community that the story is written for. If it's for gore lovers then they would obviously love it. If it's for the average community of muscle growth lovers, then it's very likely they will not like it. The farthest most people go to tolerating "bad things" is muscle theft + bullying + life ruining, and even that's a hit or a miss type of thing even though nobody dies; it all depends on if the guy really deserves it or not. Most of the time the justification is just plain shitty, but hey, that's what people are into so. . . Eh, whatever floats their goat boats in the moat.

Hmm, that's a very detailed and educational description on why many people dislike snuff, and helps me understand why it is often frowned down upon while story elements such as mind control/domination/revenge/life ruining or not. A lot of people seem to be under the misunderstanding that snuff stories lack backstory or that they exclusively feature evil protagonists who kill others purely for the joy of killing. While there admittedly ARE stories like this, classifying the entire genre this way is rather uninformed. It's no better than saying that muscle growth stories have no backstory, because they're all about the backstory and not about the characters or plot.

Let me give an example of a great snuff story that is about a theme that's very common in MG fiction, revenge. John D's Gang Exterminator, which can be read on the omelissokomos site, is about a kid that lives in a gang-infested neighborhood, and his parents are killed when he is a young teen. He grows up into a huge musclebeast and gets revenge by killing the gang members. The protagonist never kills any innocents, he has an actual backstory, and the plot is developed enough that you're not just reading a mindless snuff flick. For those that want to read it, you can see it here:

http://www.pridesites.com/omelissoko...erminator.html

Obviously, this won't appeal to everyone, and I'm not trying to "convert". Some people see a very definite line between ruining someone's life/revenge/domination stories and actually killing them, and though I don't understand that viewpoint, I recognize it as a valid mode of thought.

In the end, everyone can choose to read what he or she wants. I just want to clear up a misunderstanding that snuff stories are somehow less respectable than muscle growth. All weird, quirky, bizarre, unorthodox sexual fantasies are born equal.

[TheEd]

Hey guys, it is fantasy, so Please, don't judge writers as if they are psychopaths. Otherwise we would need to lock in jail a big portion of the population. Most BDSM fantasies are about violence and rape... but they do really want the real bloody experience? Of course not. It is a game. Just like GTA games do not create urban violence. --and I believe that the suppression of those fantasies to be dangerous.

Also most of the times those stories are about the writer's fantasies of being subjugated by the unstoppable sexual god than being the unforgiven god himself. (usually the unforgiven god is pretty one-dimensional)

I quite like reading some violent stories, but to this day I'm not really able to write them. I tried and for some reason it is not that easy. When I try to apply a morality tone to the violence two things occur:

1) it loses its sexual appeal
2) I feel like that I'm just adding moral excuses (or bs) to write about violence

What I like to read about those stories is the power and corruption themes, those are my favorites, and obviously it gets dark. Printing vampires as nice people just don't sound true (unless it is about a tragedy).

I must add that most human beings with supreme powers will not behave like Superman. Absolute power does corrupt absolutely (see all dictators). Sometimes I'm afraid that superpowers are better represented by the Legionxp stories than the mainstream comics.

What I don't like is the full description of gore. It is completely contradictory, I know, but it does turn me off.

[Curiosity]

Originally Posted by TheEd

Most BDSM fantasies are about violence and [COLOR="Red"]rape[/COLOR]...and I believe that the suppression of those fantasies to be dangerous.

Here's a novel idea: what if people fantasized about consensual BDSM situations? I guarantee that it would possible to include all the same story elements, even if the writer took the extra step of seduction rather than resorting to rape to get a character in bed. It goes way past dark; I wouldn't say that anyone who reads BDSM stories or even snuff is a psychopath, but does anyone see a problem with "That story got really hot when the guy grew into a hulking muscle beast and raped his trainer!"?

There's nothing wrong with liking it rough or kinky, but rape and rape fantasy are disgusting. And it's not the suppression of rape fantasies that's dangerous, it's having them in the first place. Regardless of the difference between fantasy and reality, incorporating rape into erotic fiction is troubling.

[Rarity]

Originally Posted by Curiosity

There's nothing wrong with liking it rough or kinky, but rape and rape fantasy are disgusting. And it's not the suppression of rape fantasies that's dangerous, it's having them in the first place. Regardless of the difference between fantasy and reality, incorporating rape into erotic fiction is troubling.

I think it depends. . .

Muscle growth is weird but people here find it hot. So we acknowledge it's weird and just move on. Those who enjoy snuff, rape, and all that other unsavory stuff must acknowledge it's morally unsound and gross, then move on. As long as they're not doing any of that weird stuff in real life, it's OK. People shouldn't attack those who like the fetish either, even if it's something that could also be considered somewhat offensive.

So if someone says "wow that's hella fucked up and weird" the fetish-liker should just reply with "yeah, I know." If they directly attack the fetish-liker, then it's not OK. It's on the Internet so it is somewhat acceptable and doesn't make anyone a psychopath. Kind of.


Though if we're speaking about stuff in real life, it's not a mentally healthy fetish to have. I mean, what would you call someone who sits there and fantasizes about killing people/watching them die AND gets off on it? There is no way to twist that around to make it sound acceptable. A therapist would actually have to report it to the authorities if the fantasies involved someone specific OR if the person was unstable. So. . . You can see why people would call a fetish like this troubling, gross, and so on. That doesn't only go for snuff, but also for extremely violent fantasies too (like rape, wanting to imprison and torture someone, etc).

[Curiosity]

Originally Posted by ★whim★

I think it depends. . .

Muscle growth is weird but people here find it hot. So we acknowledge it's weird and just move on. Those who enjoy snuff, rape, and all that other unsavory stuff must acknowledge it's morally unsound and gross, then move on. As long as they're not doing any of that weird stuff in real life, it's OK. People shouldn't attack those who like the fetish either, even if it's something that could also be considered somewhat offensive.

So if someone says "wow that's hella fucked up and weird" the fetish-liker should just reply with "yeah, I know." If they directly attack the fetish-liker, then it's not OK. It's on the Internet so it is somewhat acceptable and doesn't make anyone a psychopath. Kind of.


Though if we're speaking about stuff in real life, it's not a mentally healthy fetish to have. I mean, what would you call someone who sits there and fantasizes about killing people/watching them die AND gets off on it? There is no way to twist that around to make it sound acceptable. A therapist would actually have to report it to the authorities if the fantasies involved someone specific OR if the person was unstable. So. . . You can see why people would call a fetish like this troubling, gross, and so on. That doesn't only go for snuff, but also for extremely violent fantasies too (like rape, wanting to imprison and torture someone, etc).

I understand your point, but I think you missed the mark a little on what I was getting at: consent. It's all well and good for a story to contain violence and control elements, and yes many people will think that that is weird and gross, but if the character likes whips and chains, that's his/her personal fetish. Rape, on the other hand, is the often violent disregard for whether the person/character wants to have sex. My point was that, in a story, how hard is it to take the time to make the character want it before it happens?

I think it's wrong for anyone to write rape into an erotic story, because there is nothing erotic about it. It's not 100% on the authors, either, because they're really just expressing a subconscious social norm. We live in a rape culture that has persisted since at least ancient Rome, and it's going to take sweeping cultural changes to actually turn "don't get raped" into "don't rape." Seriously folks, don't make your protagonist a rapist. Sensible people might think the worst of you. And if you get off on the idea or fantasy of rape, you might want to consider seeking professional help.

[TheEd]

Originally Posted by Curiosity

if you get off on the idea or fantasy of rape, you might want to consider seeking professional help.

I don't think that you understand much about sexuality as you think. Probably the Professional Help will just say that is nothing wrong about such fantasies because they are so common.

I'll just copy paste from wikipedia here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_fantasy#Force):

Rape or ravishment is a common sexual fantasy among both men and women, either genericly or as an ingredient in a particular sexual scenario. The fantasy may involve the fantasist as either the one being forced or coerced into sexual activity or as the perpetrator. Some studies have found that women tend to fantasize about being forced into sex more commonly than men. A 1974 study by Hariton and Singer found that being "overpowered or forced to surrender" was the second most frequent fantasy in their survey; a 1984 study by Knafo and Jaffe ranked being overpowered as their study's most common fantasy during intercourse; and a 1988 study by Pelletier and Herold found that over half of their female respondents had fantasies of forced sex. Other studies have found the theme, but with lower frequency and popularity. However, these female fantasies in no way imply that the subject desires to be forced into non-consensual sex in reality.

[Curiosity]

Oh, yes. I wholeheartedly trust a poorly spelled article from wikipedia about studies conducted during the heyday of sexual psychology when homosexuality was a disorder. You are so right.

The point I'm trying to make is the difference between simulated loss of control as in bondage, domination/submission, and other roleplay versus the taking by force of another person's autonomy. If you want to submit to a sexual partner in whatever manner, that's up to you. It's consensual. But consider this experiment:

Try telling someone, "Sometimes I like to jack off to stories about rape," and see how they react. It's likely to be a less forgiving response than one might give to "I like when my boyfriend ties me to the bed and fucks me really hard." You'd definitely get judged for both, but the latter is more likely to get you "Dude, that's gross, but whatever floats your goat boat in the moat."

[ydt81]

(Glad this thread has gotten some thoughtful discussion going. For the first week or so I thought people were just going to ignore it and hope it went away.)

I dunno Curiousity; TheEd made a great point a few posts back about the perspective most muscle domination/snuff authors take: similar to regular muscle stories, they write from the perspective of the submissive person or are written with a one-dimensional, dominant character. This is worth noting because regarding the "don't get raped" vs. "don't rape" viewpoints, the viewpoint apparently implied by these stories is "rape me" (so to speak).
Now you've said that anyone with fantasies about rape should seek professional help. But simple logic tells us that a 'desired rape' is by definition IMPOSSIBLE. So, unlike the lurking perpetrator, who fantasizes about attacking powerless victims, these 'would-be victims' cannot, in reality, *force* themselves to be raped*. If you believe in the link between fantasy and reality, this distinction between perp and victim fantasy is significant.

And furthermore, in all but a handful of stories, I've read where the force crosses the line, many authors write extensively about the (eventual) enjoyment of the submissive character. This does not in real life, substitute for consent. But in literature, for better or worse, it at leases hints at or even represents it for the sake of 'eroticism'. Bad I know but several things get sacrificed for this reason; when was the last time you read about safe sex in one of these stories, for instance? And on the matter of censorship, I'm usually not the biggest free speech die-hard, but when you limit or require certain things in a story, you preclude certain characters, personalities, and plots. Not that that's always a bad thing but you have to admit there is a CLEAR difference in personality, between the brash bad boy that asks a guy to get undressed and the one that rips the buttons open. Both scenarios can be good or bad depending on the writing. Either would inevitably get old without the possibility of variation.



And sorry to be a hardass but I gotta callout the invalidity of these "oh my, what would the neighbors think ?!" arguments. I can think of many people that would approve of nonconsensual fantasies before they approved of transgendered ones . 'Popular' is not synonymous with 'Ethical'. And for that matter neither is 'erotic'. When it comes to real world crimes, 'rape is rape'. Period. But in the world of written erotica, I'm willing to bet that over 50% of nonconsensual scenes stay away from that word altogether.

[Rarity]

Originally Posted by Curiosity

"Dude, that's gross, but whatever floats your goat boat in the moat."

Seeing someone else type that somehow makes it more amusing.

Mmyes~

[Lucas88]

I'm not a fan of rape (and, to paraphrase ytd81, you can't rape the willing even if they do put up a faux fight) or snuff...it's a personal preference, not a judgment.

I have a hard time enjoying either in fantasy or erotica because, to me:

1-Rape is actually rarely about sex. It's more about exerting power and control over a vulnerable victim than sexuality.
2-Snuff is murder of a weaker victim for the sake of brutality...where's the challenge in that? What in any sense of the word is erotic about that? I don't get it.

Now, if I had to make a choice between rape and snuff, one thing that sticks in my mind is that, when a rapist rapes, there will always be scars but there's always the possibility of healing for the victim and the opportunity for the rapist to make some kind of amends; BUT...when a brute snuffs out a victim, dead is dead...there is no going back.

In the end, I think we're already much too desensitized as it is to the needs of others today and minimizing these particular acts by eroticizing them doesn't work for me. Just some thoughts to keep the conversation going.

AND...Curiosity...what the HELL is a "goat boat"???

[Rarity]

A goat shaped boat. A boat for goats. Whatever you want. It's only there for rhyming reasons.

"Whatever FLOATS your GOAT BOAT in the MOAT" as opposed to just "Whatever floats your boat."

[TheEd]

this discussion have some parallels with what Tarantino is having to deal in some recent interviews:

KGM: Let me ask you about violence. You said, you know, everyone knows you make violent movies, you like violent movies. Why do you like making violent movies?

QT: Erm... I don't know. It's like asking Judd Apatow: "Why do you like making comedies?"

KGM: You just get a kick out of it? Or you just enjoy it? Or...

QT: It's... It's... It's a... I think... I think it's good cinema. I consider it good cinema. You know, it's... You sit there in a movie theatre when these cathartic, violent scenes happen... I'm talking about the cathartic violence scenes.

KGM: Is that why you think people like watching violent movies -- people who are not violent people or twisted people in any way, but why it's OK to go into a movie and enjoy the violence?

QT: Yeah, well, it's a movie. It's a fantasy. It's a fantasy -- it's not real life. It's a fantasy. You go and you watch. You know, you watch a kung-fu movie and one guy takes on 100 people in a restaurant. That's fun!




It is kind of strange in these internet times that there is a kind of politically correct movement judging people over their fantasies.

If this trend continues we will have in real life that scene from Cinema Paradiso that a priest had to watch every movie before the audience, and at each time he rings his bell the projectionist had to cut a scene from the movie reel, as if fantasies will make people to do them. Yet we know how many priests did terrible things with kids, and they didn't need to read/see fantasies to carry on with their despicable acts. If I would blame something, it would be the suppression of their own sexuality that lead them to do that.

[Curiosity]

Originally Posted by ydt81

TheEd made a great point a few posts back about the perspective most muscle domination/snuff authors take: similar to regular muscle stories, they write from the perspective of the submissive person or are written with a one-dimensional, dominant character. This is worth noting because regarding the "don't get raped" vs. "don't rape" viewpoints, the viewpoint apparently implied by these stories is "rape me" (so to speak).
Now you've said that anyone with fantasies about rape should seek professional help. But simple logic tells us that a 'desired rape' is by definition IMPOSSIBLE. So, unlike the lurking perpetrator, who fantasizes about attacking powerless victims, these 'would-be victims' cannot, in reality, *force* themselves to be raped*. If you believe in the link between fantasy and reality, this distinction between perp and victim fantasy is significant.

And furthermore, in all but a handful of stories, I've read where the force crosses the line, many authors write extensively about the (eventual) enjoyment of the submissive character. This does not in real life, substitute for consent. But in literature, for better or worse, it at leases hints at or even represents it for the sake of 'eroticism'. Bad I know but several things get sacrificed for this reason; when was the last time you read about safe sex condom in one of these stories, for instance? And on the matter of censorship, I'm usually not the biggest free speech die-hard, but when you limit or require certain things in a story, you preclude certain characters, personalities, and plots. Not that that's always a bad thing but you have to admit there is a CLEAR difference in personality, between the brash bad boy that asks a guy to get undressed and the one that rips the buttons open. Both scenarios can be good or bad depending on the writing. Either would inevitably get old without the possibility of variation.

That's valid, and I admit that I missed part of what TheEd was saying and sort of got stuck on the side of perp fantasy, which is more easily recognizable as troubling. That was where my "seek help" argument came from, because outside the topic of stories, fantasizing about raping someone suggests a too-dark side of someone's sexuality. In cases like that, saying not to suppress it could possibly lead to following through, which would be horrible. I realize that there is a difference between fantasy and reality, and what someone reads for porn isn't necessarily what they would do in real life, but in a real-world culture where there are people who would say that a woman was raped for dressing too slutty or that she had it coming, etc., I find the "rape me" fantasy disturbing as well, if only in that it perpetuates an idea that some people might want to be raped for real. Because while stories are fantasy in the sense that they are fictional, the term sexual fantasy just as often denotes the things a person would like to try. I don't believe that anyone, even those who get off on relinquishing control, actually fantasizes about being raped in real life, but it can be a thin line between the two types of fantasy and there are people who would equate the two.

Personally, I don't see it as redeeming at all when a story has a rape victim begin to enjoy it, because it was still rape. And as far as rape is more about power and control in a disturbing way, consensual seduction can still be about power and control with a submissive character. And the brash bad boy character can still rip his partner's shirt off; just make it heated for both of them.

Originally Posted by TheEd

It's a fantasy. It's a fantasy -- it's not real life. It's a fantasy. You go and you watch. You know, you watch a kung-fu movie and one guy takes on 100 people in a restaurant. That's fun!

If this trend continues we will have in real life that scene from Cinema Paradiso that a priest had to watch every movie before the audience, and at each time he rings his bell the projectionist had to cut a scene from the movie reel, as if fantasies will make people to do them. Yet we know how many priests did terrible things with kids, and they didn't need to read/see fantasies to carry on with their despicable acts. If I would blame something, it would be the suppression of their own sexuality that lead them to do that.

I would distinguish this discussion from Quentin Tarantino because as far as we can tell, he doesn't get off on it. Yes, violence in movies can be enjoyable from an action standpoint, but I wouldn't jack off to it. I also wouldn't say that anyone who reads an "erotic" story about rape is going to go out and rape someone, but people who have perp fantasies might be predisposed to that side.

[I<3Muscles]

Originally Posted by TheEd

this discussion have some parallels with what Tarantino is having to deal in some recent interviews:

KGM: Let me ask you about violence. You said, you know, everyone knows you make violent movies, you like violent movies. Why do you like making violent movies?

QT: Erm... I don't know. It's like asking Judd Apatow: "Why do you like making comedies?"

KGM: You just get a kick out of it? Or you just enjoy it? Or...

QT: It's... It's... It's a... I think... I think it's good cinema. I consider it good cinema. You know, it's... You sit there in a movie theatre when these cathartic, violent scenes happen... I'm talking about the cathartic violence scenes.

KGM: Is that why you think people like watching violent movies -- people who are not violent people or twisted people in any way, but why it's OK to go into a movie and enjoy the violence?

QT: Yeah, well, it's a movie. It's a fantasy. It's a fantasy -- it's not real life. It's a fantasy. You go and you watch. You know, you watch a kung-fu movie and one guy takes on 100 people in a restaurant. That's fun!




It is kind of strange in these internet times that there is a kind of politically correct movement judging people over their fantasies.

If this trend continues we will have in real life that scene from Cinema Paradiso that a priest had to watch every movie before the audience, and at each time he rings his bell the projectionist had to cut a scene from the movie reel, as if fantasies will make people to do them. Yet we know how many priests did terrible things with kids, and they didn't need to read/see fantasies to carry on with their despicable acts. If I would blame something, it would be the suppression of their own sexuality that lead them to do that.

well said!

Just like how people have a different level of tolerance for violence in movies, not everyone can enjoy a snuff story. But the fact that the actions performed by some characters in stories reflects the views of either the author or the audience is just ridiculous.

In the end, we should all accept that everyone has different fantasies and that we are all fine just the way we are!

(PS: Just FYI, rape and violence are actually a MORE common fantasy than muscle growth, so using the "weird" argument is inaccurate.)

[Weasel]

Originally Posted by I<3Muscles

well said!

Just like how people have a different level of tolerance for violence in movies, not everyone can enjoy a snuff story. But the fact that the actions performed by some characters in stories reflects the views of either the author or the audience is just ridiculous.

In the end, we should all accept that everyone has different fantasies and that we are all fine just the way we are!

(PS: Just FYI, rape and violence are actually a MORE common fantasy than muscle growth, so using the "weird" argument is inaccurate.)

Agreed. We all have our private fantasies that in a fictional context we can enjoy with other people. But then, when I go watch a movie by Tarantino I'm warned that it contains violence. Snuff stories should begin with the same warning and people who don't enjoy can leave without getting shocked or at least upset.

I admit that i put some morality in my fantasies and I think muscle growth is a more innocent fantasy than raping or killing. But in a free mind way, who cares what happen to fictional characters as long as nothing is real? It feels wrong for me but there's no consequences so it's ok.

[ytrewq]

I think people need to understand just how wildly different death in stories/movies/games to the genuine thing.

This guy made a good point on that (Warning: contains actual video of a suicide):

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/vide...ed-to-Violence

The sort of death we see in fiction is more distant symbolism than anything else. It doesn't capture the true essence of what death is. People sensationalize how scary it is when they see it in fiction but in real life what I see just fills me with sadness. The personhood of that man in the video seems to dissapear in a flash. One moment he's there, then it's like a light switch is flicked off and he's gone. Just a husk left behind.

In erotic fiction one guy killing another seems to me just another symbol of dominance. From what I've read the victim and sometimes even the killer aren't really fleshed out and given character. More icons than people. At least I hope that's the intent. Can't say the same story will mean the same thing for everyone.

[ydt81]

[COLOR=Red]*Main Point in red lol[/COLOR]

Originally Posted by ytrewq

I think people need to understand just how wildly different death in stories/movies/games to the genuine thing.

This guy made a good point on that (Warning: contains actual video of a suicide):

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/vide...ed-to-Violence

The sort of death we see in fiction is more distant symbolism than anything else. It doesn't capture the true essence of what death is. People sensationalize how scary it is when they see it in fiction but in real life what I see just fills me with sadness. The personhood of that man in the video seems to dissapear in a flash. One moment he's there, then it's like a light switch is flicked off and he's gone. Just a husk left behind.

In erotic fiction one guy killing another seems to me just another symbol of dominance. From what I've read the victim and sometimes even the killer aren't really fleshed out and given character. More icons than people. At least I hope that's the intent. Can't say the same story will mean the same thing for everyone.

That's one link I can't bring myself to click but thank you for the warning. Just knowing that there is a video of such an event throws fictional violence into high relief.

I totally agree that certain events in fiction are intended to be symbolic. And I'm glad that you point out 'personhood', because I believe there can be worse things than death in a story.*

I came across another thread from the original poster about the stories of Chip Masterson (a muscle/strength/domination author). A few clicks later, I arrived at a story called "Jarod." Based on the description, the story is just about "a straight alpha-teen" playing the usual dominance game and winning. In the two chapters I read, no one was snuffed, and as far as actual physical violence, I've read romance novels with rougher fights. But believe me when I say that after finishing the excerpt, I would rather have skimmed three stories with snuff in them than read those two chapters. I felt miserable for days. As a few people have mentioned, most erotic stories involving snuff/death—tend to give characters one-track personalities, avoiding the emotions involved when a life is taken. However, this story did the opposite, digging deep into the emotions of homophobia and psychological domination. There was no death, but something worse, in its place a prolonged breaking of the character's spirit. Chip is among the most creative when it comes to strength/power feats, but warning or no, I was not ready for how that story took me.

But of course, had I not been (reluctantly) turned on the whole way through, things would’ve been different. And therein lies the lesson.

I won't return to finish that story. As great as the descriptions were, as much as his characters turned me on, for me the cost of reading it was too steep. See, I think what made the story wrong for me was not so much the plot itself (thought that didn't help), but the fact that it got incredibly difficult to set apart fictional themes from my own thoughts.
I must say the story taught me a necessary lesson about reality and fantasy. [COLOR=Yellow][COLOR=Red]I'd argue that if you aren't able to firmly separate the two---INCLUDING your real self from the eroticized "self" that reads stories and pictures--then you don't have any business reading even the mildest role/reversal story[/COLOR].[/COLOR]The question which seems to pervade the discussion is whether or not such separation is completely possible.

Like ytrewq said, I can't assume the same story is the same for everyone. I just wanted to present this as an alternative reason for opting out of a specific piece or type of fiction. (As opposed to an absolute moral code, for instance). My general stance on snuff and all themes in erotica is that I try to follow good writing, not themes. As nypup2train suggested, there’s a difference between snuff as a genre of muscle stories and snuff as an element in a muscle story. When it comes to things I’m not interested in, there are only a few things I outlaw across the board. I'll turn away from certain stories or even entire authors if I know I won't like what's coming.
(And odd comparison but) It's like watching stand-up comedy: you know who/what shows to avoid if you don't want to be offended.

But in the end, remember your taste is as at least as much chance as it is anything else. Depending on how you see it, we’re fortunate to come across good examples of all the things we might have hated otherwise.

[nypup2train]

Point of procedure: Please never post anything to this site in yellow. Please. I'll beg, if I have to.

Not everyone uses the default display theme to view posts here. If you want to see a vision of horror crawling out of your computer screen at you (which will make every disturbing fantasy discussed in this thread so far seem tame), then do the following:

1. Scroll down to the bottom of this page,
2. Find the dropbox in the lower-left corner,
3. Open it up and select "vBulletin 3" in place of the default "Dark Fantasy" that was previously selected.

...Now go look at ytd81's most recent post, and in particular the yellow sections.

Thank you for feeling my pain. (Feel free to hurriedly switch back to the Dark Fantasy theme now, nobody would blame you.)

It's rarely a good idea to employ the text-color controls when posting here at all (because of the vast difference between the site themes), but when text must be colored the safest choices that look reasonably comfortable in both themes tend to be in the reds, or the darker end of the green range. Blues are tough, the dark-enough ones tend to get lost in Dark Fantasy and the light ones disappear in vBulletin 3. But anything else is a recipe for eyelid-searing technicolor nightmare for at least *some* portion of the site's users.

[ydt81]

Originally Posted by nypup2train

Point of procedure: Please never post anything to this site in yellow. Please. I'll beg, if I have to.

Not everyone uses the default display theme to view posts here. If you want to see a vision of horror crawling out of your computer screen at you (which will make every disturbing fantasy discussed in this thread so far seem tame), then do the following:

1. Scroll down to the bottom of this page,
2. Find the dropbox in the lower-left corner,
3. Open it up and select "vBulletin 3" in place of the default "Dark Fantasy" that was previously selected.

...Now go look at ytd81's most recent post, and in particular the yellow sections.

Thank you for feeling my pain. (Feel free to hurriedly switch back to the Dark Fantasy theme now, nobody would blame you.)

It's rarely a good idea to employ the text-color controls when posting here at all (because of the vast difference between the site themes), but when text must be colored the safest choices that look reasonably comfortable in both themes tend to be in the reds, or the darker end of the green range. Blues are tough, the dark-enough ones tend to get lost in Dark Fantasy and the light ones disappear in vBulletin 3. But anything else is a recipe for eyelid-searing technicolor nightmare for at least *some* portion of the site's users.

CORRECTED! Thank You for the heads up.

[I<3Muscles]

Originally Posted by ydt81

[COLOR=Red]*Main Point in red lol[/COLOR]





That's one link I can't bring myself to click but thank you for the warning. Just knowing that there is a video of such an event throws fictional violence into high relief.

I totally agree that certain events in fiction are intended to be symbolic. And I'm glad that you point out 'personhood', because I believe there can be worse things than death in a story.*

I came across another thread from the original poster about the stories of Chip Masterson (a muscle/strength/domination author). A few clicks later, I arrived at a story called "Jarod." Based on the description, the story is just about "a straight alpha-teen" playing the usual dominance game and winning. In the two chapters I read, no one was snuffed, and as far as actual physical violence, I've read romance novels with rougher fights. But believe me when I say that after finishing the excerpt, I would rather have skimmed three stories with snuff in them than read those two chapters. I felt miserable for days. As a few people have mentioned, most erotic stories involving snuff/death?tend to give characters one-track personalities, avoiding the emotions involved when a life is taken. However, this story did the opposite, digging deep into the emotions of homophobia and psychological domination. There was no death, but something worse, in its place a prolonged breaking of the character's spirit. Chip is among the most creative when it comes to strength/power feats, but warning or no, I was not ready for how that story took me.

But of course, had I not been (reluctantly) turned on the whole way through, things would?ve been different. And therein lies the lesson.

I won't return to finish that story. As great as the descriptions were, as much as his characters turned me on, for me the cost of reading it was too steep. See, I think what made the story wrong for me was not so much the plot itself (thought that didn't help), but the fact that it got incredibly difficult to set apart fictional themes from my own thoughts.
I must say the story taught me a necessary lesson about reality and fantasy. [COLOR=Yellow][COLOR=Red]I'd argue that if you aren't able to firmly separate the two---INCLUDING your real self from the eroticized "self" that reads stories and pictures--then you don't have any business reading even the mildest role/reversal story[/COLOR].[/COLOR]The question which seems to pervade the discussion is whether or not such separation is completely possible.

Like ytrewq said, I can't assume the same story is the same for everyone. I just wanted to present this as an alternative reason for opting out of a specific piece or type of fiction. (As opposed to an absolute moral code, for instance). My general stance on snuff and all themes in erotica is that I try to follow good writing, not themes. As nypup2train suggested, there?s a difference between snuff as a genre of muscle stories and snuff as an element in a muscle story. When it comes to things I?m not interested in, there are only a few things I outlaw across the board. I'll turn away from certain stories or even entire authors if I know I won't like what's coming.
(And odd comparison but) It's like watching stand-up comedy: you know who/what shows to avoid if you don't want to be offended.

But in the end, remember your taste is as at least as much chance as it is anything else. Depending on how you see it, we?re fortunate to come across good examples of all the things we might have hated otherwise.

I know that this is an dead topic, and I don't want to go too hard on the necromancy here, but this post is something that I strongly agree with. There's a difference between "snuff" and "domination", "strength" versus "brutality". It's impossible to draw a line and say that there is a single moral guideline that everyone and every story must follow. The best we can do, I think, is to learn ourselves and learn what we can enjoy, without feeling terribly depressed or becoming pschopaths as a result.

[BigLittleTim]

"Everything is really about sex; except sex, which is about power."