Content and Purpose of this site

[roodinverse]

Just throwing this thread out there for people who want to seriously hash it out, so they can stop clogging the Post Your Stories forum. I am merely a former lurker, occasional poster, and too-damn-shy to put up any of my own stories gay man who is into muscular size difference. Here's my two cents.

I personally feel that fiction or otherwise about large, muscular men is appropriate for this site. I generally trust the population here to regulate what goes and what doesn't. I figure many other things can be thrown in minimally, without contradicting this site's goal. By the above I mean that "the muscle men are the point and everything else is a very distant second". I am here to read about musclemen, male bodybuilders, musclebears, etc. and/or their muscles growing and do NOT want to skip over 7 paragraphs of macro-furry she-male balloon bondage fantasy to get to it. I made the previous up, at least, I HOPE I did :P

Others very rightly fear (silently or vocally) that allowing too many other elements to creep into stories will ruin a good thing. Such stories would then be NOT appropriate for this site, and could attract others who would post similar, inappropriate content. Good forums have been ruined by "opening the floodgates" to anything (see "Yahoo Groups").

I think this one is ok, however, especially considering we already have plenty of stories with no "growth" (just the after effects), aliens, fanfiction, magic, heterosexuals, furries, etc. In fact, the most popular fetish that accompanies the muscle growth is male genital growth. This accompanies muscle growth in most stories that HAVE muscle growth here. Still, all the stories so far have huge musclemen as the dominating subject. I feel it is possible to discern clearly inappropriate content, and take appropriate action.

Since such a thing worries people, I wonder if a simple "offtopic" flag can be implemented to guard against things geting out of hand? Problem is, that opens the can of worms of "official" moderation with all the rules, headaches, and abuse and bull---- that can bring. There could be forum guidelines, more suggestions really, obviously published so people will "get it" before they post.

Here's the point: we're a smallish group of somewhat like-minded individuals that have a good thing. The interest that brought us here is pretty specific and unlikely to attract (many) outsiders. The vast majority are lurkers (true of many forums) who simply appreciate that this place exists. There is a slippery slope that can ruin it, but our safety net is the careful thought and discussion that forum members already have.

That's all. I may be wrong, but I hope not entirely so.
--rood

[Marco_ukmus]

Hi roodinverse,

Yeah I just posted another reply before seeing this one, otherwise I would have written it here.

I agree completely with what your saying accept for one thing... and i quote...

Originally Posted by roodinverse

I think this one is ok, however, especially considering we already have plenty of stories with no "growth" (just the after effects), aliens, fanfiction, magic, heterosexuals, furries, etc. In fact, the most popular fetish that accompanies the muscle growth is male genital growth. This accompanies muscle growth in most stories that HAVE muscle growth here. Still, all the stories so far have huge musclemen as the dominating subject. I feel it is possible to discern clearly inappropriate content, and take appropriate action.

How is that heterosexuals content, as long as it includes muscle growth, is not appropriate. I agree that if ANY story that envolves hetrosexuals, gays, bis, and anything else but does not include muscle growth, and (male muscle growth at that before Corwin or anyone else for that matter says it), would not be, and should not be deemed appropriate. However its just interesting that you did not mention gays and bi's with no muscle growth being listed in your NOT appropriate list. Thus, surely your thereby infering that stories that do include gays and bis but no muscle growth is some how acceptable. This is the issue that the other thread is moving in, not the fact that the story is indeed appropriate or not, but more the sexual orientation and aim of the audience.

If the site was named "Gay MALE Muscle Growth" then this issue would not have risen. I'm sure you probably just forgot to list the gay and bi entries with no muscle growth to your list, but maybe subcontiously it was what you intended.

I love reading the muscle growth stories and even love parts about male genitalia growing to new levels. After all, straight men buy supps for enlarging their assets too. So again, I think we are all in agreeement that all stories should include male muscle growth, not female muscle growth. Thus, its simply leaves us with the fact of whether the odd story including hetrosexual content is allowed after/before muscle and genitalia growth. And thus this is the very route of what i think Corwin is getting at. Although I do believe that he might also be tackling wider issues to do with whether hetros should even be here.

Marc
P.S. Sorry to keep using your alias Corwin, I'm just a bit miffed...

[SithSpawn]

Most of the stories I've read involve (after the muscle growth) guys either whacking off or just generally shooting their loads so do these stories appeal to gays, hetros, bis or all?

Secondly, there are some stories on here with no muscle growth at all or very little, sometimes after several chapters (Superpowers Universe, sorry to mention it again, I do love it, honest) but nobody seems to complain about them.

I personally don't get my jollies from the sex scenes anyway, some of my favourite stories feature just the muscle growth and self admiration so should I declare myself Asexual and slag you all off? Like I said in my other post, if you really like a story but not one aspect of it then co[py, past into word and change it slightly. As long as you don't re-post it either as your own work or without the original authors permission then where's the harm?

I don't honestly think anyone on here has anything against gays, bis, straights or anyone else, if you do then fuck off! you're not wanted here. If people want to define others purely by their sexuality and not know them because they "don't go for that sort of thing" then they should stop being so bloody shallow and meet the real world.

[Corwin]

Originally Posted by Marco_ukmus

How is that heterosexuals content, as long as it includes muscle growth, is not appropriate.

NOBODY HAS SAID IT IS INAPPROPRIATE! Stop saying that!

[Corwin]

Originally Posted by SithSpawn

Secondly, there are some stories on here with no muscle growth at all or very little, sometimes after several chapters (Superpowers Universe, sorry to mention it again, I do love it, honest) but nobody seems to complain about them.

I think Flexodus covered this in his post. "There have been a number of stories posted that (in my opinion) have touched upon the male muscle growth element so briefly as to seem an afterthought. This story is one of them. I honestly don't mind it when stories have gay or straight sex scenes... but only when the story as a whole is balanced so that members can enjoy the CORE elements of male muscle growth, irrespective of whether or not the story continues on to involve any gay or straight sex. Remember, MALE MUSCLE GROWTH is the subject of this website and of the stories posted here."

In the owner's opinion, the story "First Exerience With A Girl" is probably NOT appropriate for the site. Use that as a guide.

We could have a discussion about (male) muscle growth. Muscles and strength are intertwined. You can have strength without muscle growth, or a story can concentrate on the strength aspect after the muscle growth. In SuperPowers Universe, that is what seems to be happening. There was some event in the past that caused some men to become hugely muscled. While the author has promised us some description of that event, he has yet to deliver it. Is it appropriate to the site? What about Chip Masterson's stories that also only deal with strength without growth? Are they appropriate for the site?

I think you are probably correct that they dilute the purpose of the site. I and others are arguing against dilution. However, that horse has already left the barn. It seems to be a bit late to try and close those barn doors now. Other off-topic elements, however, are still very much open to debate.

jpmuscle has threatened to post a chapter to his story with female muscle growth. I have said that I will object to that chapter if he does it. I do not believe that this dilution is appropriate, and I do think that such a chapter could be against the "core elements" and purpose of the website. In the words of the site owner, "Remember, MALE MUSCLE GROWTH is the subject of this website and of the stories posted here."

[glammaman2000]

...that none of this will be construed as a wish to make straight,bi,or female members feel unwelcome.Some of us(me)don't even read the stories;but very much enjoy the muscle-community features of the Forum;& the diversity of the input is what keeps it stimulating.I think it's cool that more than a few straight guys are comfortable hashing it out on what is clearly a gay-dominated site.The authors may wish to define story boundaries;but I hope it won't overly constrict the give-&-take of the larger Forum.

[Marco_ukmus]

Corwin,

Give it a rest son! You have slated the "oh marco left MALE of the Muscle growth" (in a skwirmy teenage to parent type voice) thing time and time again, and no matter what i say you still carry on!. If you read carefully you will have noted that not only have i explained WHY i did it, but also that i have apologized for it.

The stupid thing is, which you have obviously missed somewhere in your reading of the posts, is that I AGREE 100% that this should remain a MALE (if i could have this word flashing and animated characters dancing around it, i would...) Muscle Growth archieve and community. The opersit to male is female, and female muscle growth I believe is of no interest to anyone here. (sorry I had to highlight that in lamins terms in an effort show that the MALE thing was never the focus of debate) Hence MALE muscle growth, thus the title of the forum and archieves is what we should have here. The funny thing is this was never under scutany, at least not from my perspective. It was the involvment of this gay/straight thing.

With regards to the stories though, like you have said, there needs to prehaps be some guidelines as to what constitutes as worthy of a home here. The touble is, and this is what i have mentioned before on the other thread, is everyones writting style is different, so do you say those with in depth growth scenes is acceptable, or those that at least touch on it... you see once you start to think about it, its a huge thing to try and scope and draw boundaries around. If you wanna suggest a set of guidelines then prehaps that would be more helpful rather than exacerbating the arguaments...

Marc

[ethernet_jock]

*yawn*

Another brief comment before I let this thing lie permanently in the 20 foot deep grave that it belongs....

From my perspective.... I was arguing against this being a gay/straight argument from the beginning. I think that's essentially what flex told us as well, even though Corwin some how bends this around to fit his "this is a gay only site" argument. That is what you said, isn't it Corwin? that this is a gay only site? I'm pretty sure I could find about 20 blatant remarks from you that say that directly.

That kind of thinking was and continues to be my problem with you....

This is a male muscle growth site. Female muscle growth, dog muscle growth, alien muscle growth, wales, cockroaches, and inanimate object muscle growth therefore does not belong. What does gay or straight have to do with it?

I do, incidentally, agree that the "girl" story that sparked this debate is probably inappropriate in that it did not contain enough content about the growth of the two main characters.... but that's my own personal judgement. I don't agree that it's inappropriate because it has a striaght them, I think that's immaterial.

now here's the ironic part....

are you ready for some thick irony?

Wrestlejock and I took this discussion into "private" about 2 days ago and have since found appropriate middleground in figureing out that our true intentions were nearly identical! We have become friends and now actually enjoy one-anothers opinions and input!

So what's wrong with you, Corwin? Why so angry?

[brent]

This site is a primarily gay site, for MALE MUSCLE GROWTH. If you straight guys want your own site, start one up! Flexodous pays for this site with HIS OWN MONEY. If you don't like that, either find another site to harass, or review the rules of capitalism.

[Marco_ukmus]

I thought for second there we might have something supportive or at the very least something constructive. Brent, you of all people I thought would not jump on the band wagon, obviously I was wrong. So it would apear that we straight guys have been harasing you guys... !?!

Whats the friggin point! WHATEVER!

[Corwin]

Originally Posted by ethernet_jock

From my perspective.... I was arguing against this being a gay/straight argument from the beginning. I think that's essentially what flex told us as well, even though Corwin some how bends this around to fit his "this is a gay only site" argument.

I HAVE NEVER SAID THAT!

Originally Posted by ethernet_jock

That is what you said, isn't it Corwin? that this is a gay only site? I'm pretty sure I could find about 20 blatant remarks from you that say that directly.

No, I never said that. If you think you can find them, I dare you to. If not, please admit your mistake.

Originally Posted by ethernet_jock

So what's wrong with you, Corwin? Why so angry?

Because people like you have consistently misrepresented my position? Just to be clear, that position is that this site is about "male muscle growth". That has been what I have said over and over and over. It is what flexodus said too. Hmmmm, imagine that.

[ethernet_jock]

Yes.... yes you did....

In fact, I think it was right here:

The next part of what you write is the most telling...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco_ukmus
But nowhere does it have the words "for gays only", "oh and bi's only on Saturdays". If you do find it, then i stand corrected... Now, surely as long as the story or submission touches on muscle growth in one form or another, it qualifies as elidable for a place on this site?


This is really the issue. To be perfectly blunt, many of you straight boys can't stand being in a minority. Many of you can't admit the homoeroticism you feel when reading the stories of male muscle growth. That is why marco loses the word male and concentrates only on muscle growth. I don't recall any gay/bi man ever complaining on this site about a story's heterosexual content, but even in this thread, we see the straight boys celebrating heterosexual sex. I've seen many threads where straight guys complain about the gay sex.

Many of you straight boys have led lives of privilege. You assume you have a right to co-opt things to make them as you want them, especially where sex is concerned. A site that has the predominant theme of male muscle growth is suddenly a gay site (your words, not ours), and anything you can do to make it straight is fair game. Let the faggots be damned!

So not only do you formulate this argument about muscle growth vs. eroticism into a gay/straight thing but then you go further to insinaute that straight people have no rights in the gay world because we haven't "suffered" as much as you. Then... then... you go even FURTHER to GENERALIZE about every straight guy in saying that all we (thus including myself by boolean equation as a grouped bisexual) want to do is change it into a straight site!! Who said that? where? when?

Only you! Corwin.... only you said that.... and if some dweeb somewhere who's only posted on this system twice in his life and then got raked over the coals for saying it... said that.... that doesn't fucking count and you know it.


Yes... and then again I think here is where you turned it - again - into a gay/straight argument:

As I have said, I can't recall any gay man complaining about straight sex in a story. Here, you say: "I can't read to far into sections of a story that contain sexual interactions between two males, and nor would i want to. I have established a great technique in skim reading for those sections." RadioKidA says: "Great stuff man... nice to see something hetero for a change..." You know, the gay guys aren't the ones complaining about diversity, it is the straight guys. We aren't the ones being intolerant, it is the straight guys who are trying to coopt this site to be about "muscle growth" rather than "male muscle growth". The problem is, many of you don't see it because you either don't want to or are so unaccustomed to being told that your beliefs are not in the norm, you can't deal with it.

I think what is most instructive is that none of you straight boys have created a forum of your own where this argument won't happen. At least some of you are determined to force your view on us here, even though several of us have complained and continue to complain. You simply don't care and keep asserting your straight-boy rights to misrepresent the purpose of this group.

above you insinuate that this is a place for gay people and that "straights" should make their own board if they don't like it. I never said I didn't like it... who did? I don't think Markus said that either, nor has he ever... so who's making this into a gay/straight debate again?


then you say:

This is not about like. This is about the purpose of this group. Try to understand that. Try hard.

So what's the purpose Corwin? Gay male muscle growth, or just male muscle growth?

I think flex told us that it's just male muscle growth.... I think I agreed, and so did Markus.

So what's your problem again with straight people? Feeling intimmidated? Threatened? George W. got ya down? Is the whole world against you?

[ethernet_jock]

So cor.... you can continue to backpedal and say that you never tried to be exclusionary at all....

but you did.... and you did it with passion ... and you did it with offensive anger and distaste.... and that, my friend, is what makes me most disappointed in you.

I used to think you were pretty cool... we got along well, saw many things the same way, etc....

Now I just think you're an angry gay man with an agenda.

Too bad.... what a waste of talent.

[Corwin]

Originally Posted by ethernet_jock

So cor.... you can continue to backpedal and say that you never tried to be exclusionary at all....

As I said, find the posts and prove it. I did no such thing.

[Voyager]

...pardon the term...straight.

There seemed to be agreement that this forum was dedicated to male muscle growth.

That there seemed to be an acceptance that male muscle growth could be treated in different fashions, as long as it did not deviate from the core premise.

That there might be some stories, posts, etc. that might not be the most relevant.

And that, if I understand correctly, the concern seemed to be more of making sure that this forum stayed true to its mission...as said many times before...Male Muscle Growth.

I cannot raise and will not raise one argument about any of these items.

And now the shingle seems to be hung out again saying, "Heteros not welcome".

It seems one of the undercurrents of my country's history (the US) has been the struggle for groups seen as outside the majority (whether that was Irish, the Southern or Eastern European, the Jew, African-Americans, women (though statistically women outnumber men), gay and lesbian persons) to gain the same rights and promises as 'the majority' in society. Sadly, I have seen in situations where the minority is the majority (clubs, organizations, even churches) population, the principles of that struggle are conveniently forgotten.

If that is the case here, I am truly saddened. I am reading a book presently that talks about a party's mission to be like a big umbrella...with a core of beliefs but also branching out to accept other points of view, as long as they stayed true to the core. It seems now what is being said is that this is OUR umbrella, and the rest of you can go stand in the rain.

Pity, I was thinking of a story or two more to write, based on the feedback I was given on my first. But now I seem to be told that I and my writing is not welcome.

So much for thinking this was a really cool place...

V

[optimusx]

Everyone, go to your time out corners Oy, it's one thing to get yourself excited about life and death matters, but this isn't one of them.


I personally visit this site because I believe everyone enjoys the same basic thing; Male muscle growth. Whether you're straight, gay, bi, android, it doesn't really matter. And honestly, if Flexodus doesn't believe a story/post/picture belongs here he can remove it, it's up to his discretion. I'd much rather just enjoy the content while it's still around. You never really know how good you've got it until you loose it.

Now, let's wipe up the testosterone off the deck and move along

Scott

[Corwin]

Originally Posted by ethernet_jock

So not only do you formulate this argument about muscle growth vs. eroticism into a gay/straight thing but then you go further to insinaute that straight people have no rights in the gay world because we haven't "suffered" as much as you. Then... then... you go even FURTHER to GENERALIZE about every straight guy in saying that all we (thus including myself by boolean equation as a grouped bisexual) want to do is change it into a straight site!! Who said that? where? when?

go back and read markus. I am responding to HIS raising the gay argument, and present an argument why that is happening. No where did I say that this is only a gay space.

Originally Posted by ethernet_jock

Only you! Corwin.... only you said that.... and if some dweeb somewhere who's only posted on this system twice in his life and then got raked over the coals for saying it... said that.... that doesn't fucking count and you know it.


Yes... and then again I think here is where you turned it - again - into a gay/straight argument:

Go back and read markus. HE turned it into a gay/straight argument. I am responding to that. In fact I said as much, as I show below and that you are conveniently leaving out.

Originally Posted by ethernet_jock

above you insinuate

You have said that I said it. Now I only insinuate it?

You post a lot of what I said, then you left this out, again in response to markus: "Remember, you are the one who is making this a gay/straight thing. How can it be enforced? The site can be taken down. The owner can delete stories that are inappropriate. The owner can ban posters (he's done it before). And, most of all, those of us that feel strongly about it can and will continue to complain."

Why leave that out? Because it demonstrates that I am responding to HIS argument and not making it myself?

Originally Posted by ethernet_jock

So what's the purpose Corwin? Gay male muscle growth, or just male muscle growth?

I think flex told us that it's just male muscle growth.... I think I agreed, and so did Markus.

Markus had posted about "muscle growth" and left the word "male" out. If you read the posts, you can see that he admits that. Now, show me where I said this forum is only for "gay male muscle growth". All you've shown so far is that you are jumping to conclusions and not reading correctly.

Originally Posted by ethernet_jock

So what's your problem again with straight people? Feeling intimmidated? Threatened? George W. got ya down? Is the whole world against you?

Apparently, the problem is people who cannot read for context.

[ethernet_jock]

this

To be perfectly blunt, many of you straight boys can't stand being in a minority.

and this

Many of you straight boys have led lives of privilege. You assume you have a right to co-opt things to make them as you want them, especially where sex is concerned. A site that has the predominant theme of male muscle growth is suddenly a gay site (your words, not ours), and anything you can do to make it straight is fair game. Let the faggots be damned!

are pretty clear to me. In or out of context.... There is only one english language and it can only be read one way.


and speaking of taking things out of context.... markus may have forgotten the "male" but he never said "female" or "alien" or "android" nor did he ever say "straight only"..... so I still don't see your perspective.


We might as well save our fingers and agree to disagree.... because I can't agree with a bigot and I can't see his point of view. Even if he IS a gay bigot... it's still bigotry and exclusivity.

So sad.

[Corwin]

Originally Posted by ethernet_jock

are pretty clear to me. In or out of context.... There is only one english language and it can only be read one way.

Which part of you are jumping to conclusions don't you understand?

In this thread, I write

Originally Posted by Corwin

Just to be clear, as I have said before, this is not an issue about "gay" vs "straight". Women worshipping male muscle growth and intercourse between men and women are consistent with this group. What is inconsistent is either writing about, or encouraging others to write about, female muscle growth.

Please note: I quite clearly say in that post from March 21 that I do not view this as a gay only forum.

You have jumped to conclusions and misread what I wrote.

Originally Posted by ethernet_jock

and speaking of taking things out of context.... markus may have forgotten the "male" but he never said "female" or "alien" or "android" nor did he ever say "straight only"..... so I still don't see your perspective.

You need to read the other thread, and fast. You know, the thread that actually started all this. The one in the link above.

Originally Posted by ethernet_jock

We might as well save our fingers and agree to disagree.... because I can't agree with a bigot and I can't see his point of view. Even if he IS a gay bigot... it's still bigotry and exclusivity.

So sad.

Your ad hominem attacks are getting tiresome. You asserted that I said that this was "a gay only forum", yet you cannot find me ever saying those words. Instead, you pick out quotes of me refuting an argument that this is somehow a gay/straight thing. In point of fact, I am on record saying exactly opposite what you accuse me of. It is you who have the problem -- you who jumped to conclusions and misread what was written. Get over it.

[glammaman2000]

...what the straight members' reactions to the gay fantasies were.But I guess this isn't a good time.....

[Corwin]

Originally Posted by glammaman2000

...what the straight members' reactions to the gay fantasies were.But I guess this isn't a good time.....

Many are cool. Some of them celebrate when a heterosexual story is posted. Some of them criticize the gay sex.

It's what you would expect.

[Marco_ukmus]

Ah, Another wonderful Morning :0)

Corwin, I still see your still fighting this thing out. Oh, but this time with one huge difference, that you have now said that I am the one, me solely am the one who has started this entire gay/straight argument. Its kinda weird that, tell me how Ether was able to say , and i quote

Originally Posted by ethernet_jock

You're still trying to set a tone and an expectation for strict homosexuality.

And this, as you know, was said BEFORE I started contributing to this http://www.musclegrowth.org/forum/sh...3&page=1&pp=25

Thread!.

Ok so I can ONLY conclude that you have decided to make this personal! You also are making me out to be something I'm not. I Suggest before anyone else judges me and adds comments to this thread that they read the ENTIRE thread (linked above, then this one, and draw your one conclusions. You should find that I WAS NOT the ONE starting the entire gay/straight argument. I was infact backing up what Ether said, as I agree with him, and trying to help show you, Corwin, that its people like you that want to make this exclusive.

Originally Posted by brent

This site is a primarily gay site, for MALE MUSCLE GROWTH. If you straight guys want your own site, start one up! Flexodous pays for this site with HIS OWN MONEY. If you don't like that, either find another site to harass, or review the rules of capitalism.

I'm only assuming that Brent, you have written this based solely on the posts in this thread, I would suggest you too read both the other thread and this thread again before making such comments.

Frankly I wish I had never contributed to this whole argument. Prehaps that would have made you much happier not getting feedback from all sides. I'm tired of this whole thing. Corwin, if you wanna keep using me as your escape goat, (so to speak) then, well, whatever!

Its getting real hard not to judge you at this point...

Marc
P.S. I'm guessing that, Corwin, your one of those people that would NEVER admit when they are wrong. I personaly believe that NO ONE is ever to man enough to say sorry once in a while...

Right well i'm off to have some fun in the sun

[Radiokida]

This is just my opinion of this site.

The only rule it has is that whatever you post must contain male muscle growth.

So if anything you post does not contain that, it is violating that rule.

Simple rule, really. I wonder why people don't understand it. It is simple enough.

[Marco_ukmus]

Wow its a nice day today :0) Summer is coming!

----

Corwin, *yawn* its just dawned on me something you have just said above

Originally Posted by Corwin

...this is somehow a gay/straight thing. In point of fact, I am on record saying exactly opposite what you accuse me of.

a) if your on record for saying the complete opposite, thus, you don't mind having stories here that include hetro scenes, then whats driven you to exacerbate this argument to such a silly level, if indeed you don't mind!?

b) you know that we all agree that the content of stories should be male muscle growth, so why again are we i) having this argument, and more importantly, ii) you taking this up to such a personal level and exacerbating the situation?

You could at any point have said, "I actually don't mind having straight scenes in a male muscle growth story" at any time, but you didn't. You made out that you were against it with all your attacking comments against straight guys. And I dont think you'll find any of my posts making generlisations against gay people or bi people, or any one for that matter, but you still did, how immature! And this is what leads me to suspect that theres more to this than meets the eye with you. You could have answered Voyager comment above where he stated that its not perhaps such a great place to be anymore as a result of this argument, or even glammaman2000 (above) where he commented stating that he hoped it would not jepadize the small minority of straight guys being here, again, you chose not to. Instead you carried on fighting and leading us all to believe that you have something against straight sections being in the stories or prehaps even to the extent of not wanting straight guys to be even here.

Even if you did not use those exact words of saying this is a gay only place, not that im saying you did or didn't (this is a hypothetical statement), you most definetly insinuated it, and let me tell you, ambiguity is a Dangerious thing. You talk about my posts being self contrdictory and unclear! Your very hipicritical. You see this is why I suspect there is a lot more to this than meets the eye. If there isn't then this is a complete waste of time, and again, if there isn't then why are you exacerbating it?. I would have stopped replying to this thread had it not been for the fact that i'm so involved now.

I look forward to your CONSTRUCTIVE reply Corwin

Marc

[Corwin]

Originally Posted by Marco_ukmus

Wow its a nice day today :0) Summer is coming!

-
a) if your on record for saying the complete opposite, thus, you don't mind having stories here that include hetro scenes, then whats driven you to exacerbate this argument to such a silly level, if indeed you don't mind!?

This:

Originally Posted by ethernet_jock

Corwin some how bends this around to fit his "this is a gay only site" argument. That is what you said, isn't it Corwin? that this is a gay only site? I'm pretty sure I could find about 20 blatant remarks from you that say that directly.

I get a little perturbed when people intentionally misread me. As I have said, I never said this, EJ can't show that I ever said it, and in fact I have said the opposite. And you think I can't admit to being wrong?

Originally Posted by Marco_ukmus

b) you know that we all agree that the content of stories should be male muscle growth, so why again are we i) having this argument, and more importantly, ii) you taking this up to such a personal level and exacerbating the situation?

Depends on who you mean by all. I still see people threatening to post stories about female muscle growth here under the guise of heterosexual content. I do think you and I are agreeing more and more, and I think EJ is totally out in left field with some imaginary argument that he is conveying through name calling and personal attacks. The latter is very frustrating.

Originally Posted by Marco_ukmus

You could at any point have said, "I actually don't mind having straight scenes in a male muscle growth story" at any time, but you didn't.

Yes I did. I even reposted my exact quote here. You just read it. Here it is again for you:

Originally Posted by Corwin

Just to be clear, as I have said before, this is not an issue about "gay" vs "straight". Women worshipping male muscle growth and intercourse between men and women are consistent with this group. What is inconsistent is either writing about, or encouraging others to write about, female muscle growth.

Now, you go on a multiparagraph diatribe about how I never said what I did clearly say. And you wonder why I am frustrated?

Originally Posted by Marco_ukmus

You made out that you were against it with all your attacking comments against straight guys. And I dont think you'll find any of my posts making generlisations against gay people or bi people, or any one for that matter, but you still did, how immature!

Think hard. Do you remember dropping the male from muscle growth? Is that not where I said what I said. It's very funny that the married guy with a kid takes offense that I point out the obvious fact that there is heterosexual privilege. in the world You yourself have said you have problems reading gay content. Believe it or not, that is your problem with homoeroticism. That is what I said and I stick to it. If you want to have a serious discussion about those issues, I am more than game. I won't do that, however, until EJ apologizes for his blatant mischaracterizations and unjustified personal attacks. Asserting that these comments about privilege and some straight boy's problems with homoeroticism in any way implies what you said is simply misreading it.

Originally Posted by Marco_ukmus

And this is what leads me to suspect that theres more to this than meets the eye with you. You could have answered Voyager comment above where he stated that its not perhaps such a great place to be anymore as a result of this argument,

EJ's misrepresenting my arguments probably has something to do with that. And if you knew how close I am to leaving and telling the moderator to delete all my stories from here, you wouldn't be saying that. I suspect LG has already left at least in part because of this argument. Others will surely do so. Perpetuating it through intentional misrepresentations and name calling is stupid, but EJ seems to want to do that. And since you have read my quote where I quite clearly say I have no problem with heterosexual content on this site but continue to argue that I never said that, I get suspicious of your motivations too.

Originally Posted by Marco_ukmus

or even glammaman2000 (above) where he commented stating that he hoped it would not jepadize the small minority of straight guys being here, again, you chose not to. Instead you carried on fighting and leading us all to believe that you have something against straight sections being in the stories or prehaps even to the extent of not wanting straight guys to be even here.

Look at the history of the thread. This was posted at the same time:

Originally Posted by ethernet_jock

So what's the purpose Corwin? Gay male muscle growth, or just male muscle growth?
...
So what's your problem again with straight people? Feeling intimmidated? Threatened? George W. got ya down? Is the whole world against you?

Quite clearly, I am not saying those things. You and EJ seem incapable of hearing that. And I am perpetuating this misrepresenation? You and EJ continue to accuse me of "not wanting straight guys here". I have never said that. Instead of accepting that denial, you argue with me that it was implied, insinuated or post quotations out of context. Try reading everything I have said rather than lying about it.

Originally Posted by Marco_ukmus

...you most definetly insinuated it...

see above.

[Marco_ukmus]

A constructive reply with no agressive under tones... Thankyou :0) (and im not saying that in a sarcastic way either, before you even think it.)

Originally Posted by Corwin

I get a little perturbed when people intentionally misread me.

We all do! Even your guilty of this otherwise how would you explain the fact that you accused me of starting the whole gay/straight argument...?

example...

Originally Posted by Corwin

go back and read markus. I am responding to HIS raising the gay argument...

This is what I can't understand; I enter the discussion, pick up on this gay/straight argument (which was well under way before i came on the scene) and then I'm the one who suposidly single handidly raised it... I'm sure you can see what i mean...

Originally Posted by Corwin

And you think I can't admit to being wrong?

See above... Yes!

Originally Posted by Corwin

Depends on who you mean by all. I still see people threatening to post stories about female muscle growth here under the guise of heterosexual content.

Well, when i said all, it was an asumption. I am, as i have said before, in complete whole hearted agreement with you about the MALE muscle growth. I think one of the reasons this thing has spirled out of control is because there is infact more than one issue being addressed. They are;

1) The fact that the current scope of the site, that of being MALE muscle growth could be diluted to simply muscle growth, thus both male and female muscle growth. This is where you attacked me on the other thread and in this one, time and time again for leaving off the word male. Frankly I did not see this as an issue we were tackling and assumed we ment male muscle growth at all times, thus used a shorted reference. In reflaction, seeing that this was also an issue that was being addressed I can see how you and arguably others might have taken it as me wanting to dilute it. Please rest assure that that was not what i meant.

2) The second issue of that of what i thought we were tackling by itself, that of allowing stories with hetrosexal content being allowed a place here on the forums. Obviously with the establishment that all growth be it muscle or genitaila be in the male, the hetrosexal content would be therefore in the context of the sex scenes. As far as i'm concerned, we all here unite in the fact that of the core MALE muscle growth, but differ depending on our own sexual orientation, and thus, that of the sex scenes after/during the growth.

Originally Posted by Corwin

I do think you and I are agreeing more and more, and I think EJ is totally out in left field with some imaginary argument that he is conveying through name calling and personal attacks. The latter is very frustrating.

We are agreeing more and more. Just like you Ether also feels very strongly about this (I think its ok to speak for him, correct me if i'm wrong Ether...) Its just a case of everything getting out of hand. It takes two to Tango, and I believe by always answering posts in a negative way, and not commenting on anything in a postive way, only exaserbates the situation.

Originally Posted by Corwin

It's very funny that the married guy with a kid takes offense that I point out the obvious fact that there is heterosexual privilege. .

This in itself adds yet another sub argument to the already complex mix as it is, so I'm not going to even entertain a response to this in fear of exaserbating the situation yet further. Perhaps another time when this has died down.

Originally Posted by Corwin

in the world You yourself have said you have problems reading gay content. .

So! You no doubt have problems reading straight content, and if you don't well it does not matter. Everyones different and everyone has their own preferences. I don't expect you to force your beliefs on me, just as much as I would not you.

Originally Posted by Corwin

Believe it or not, that is your problem with homoeroticism.

Lets me frank here, you don't know me anymore than i know you. The only thing you have, as i do you, is the text of which we have both written. So don't go telling me what my problems are and arn't. Do you care to elaborate on what my problem is then, since your obviously in a better position to judge than me?...

Originally Posted by Corwin

That is what I said and I stick to it. If you want to have a serious discussion about those issues, I am more than game.

I am more than game too. But i don't think we ought to be cluttering this website with our discussions. Unless ofcourse, people (and the quite observers) are curious to know where this will lead...

Originally Posted by Corwin

I won't do that, however, until EJ apologizes for his blatant mischaracterizations and unjustified personal attacks.

Like i said above, it takes two to tango, and here arguably more. You yourself must surely admit, not that you can't since its in writting on the other thread, the mischaracterizations and generlizations of straight people that you made. Not to mention personal attacks against me saying i started the entire gay/straight agrument.

Originally Posted by Corwin

And if you knew how close I am to leaving and telling the moderator to delete all my stories from here, you wouldn't be saying that.

No body wants anyone to leave. Even I felt some what put out with you constantly going on about me, (which you know is not true), starting the entire gay/straight argument. I am one of those people that likes to have things resolved. In my book there is always a way of resolving something, or at least making some head way for a common ground.

Originally Posted by Corwin

I suspect LG has already left at least in part because of this argument. Others will surely do so. Perpetuating it through intentional misrepresentations and name calling is stupid, but EJ seems to want to do that.

I dont think people will be leaving left right and centre, and most definetly not because of this very argument. Some my wonder off but this site is such a fantastic community that has so very much to offer that i simply can't see it happening. Of course, if the site does go down then that would be it, theres no denying that. I actually don't think, at least from my persective that people were deliberatly misrepresentations things (putting your continued references to my starting the gay/straight argument (which you know was not true) to one side). I think that what with so many different quotes and sub-quotes to each post, what with the argument spread between two threads, that by the time anyone of us has got to the of a post which has touched a nerve, we go straight into replying and arguably progressively further exasserbate the situation. Like you say, quoting things out of context from anyone of our posts can be made to look like anything. Your guilty of this just as much as anyone else. Granted, I personally feel that regardless of the situation there should never be a need to start calling each other names, and making generlisations that the author knows is only going to flair yet further fuel to the argument...

Originally Posted by Corwin

And since you have read my quote where I quite clearly say I have no problem with heterosexual content on this site but continue to argue that I never said that, I get suspicious of your motivations too.

I said (see above) that i would have stopped ages ago replying to this thread and argument if it was not for the fact that i was not so involved. You kept saying that it was my fault (which you know is not true) for introducing the gay/straight argument. Hence if simply walk off (so to speak) what does that make me look like. I have nothing against anyone. I am perfectly fine around gay people, bisexual people, or anyone for that matter. I take people for who they are. So I don't wish to be mad out to be something im not do i...

Originally Posted by Corwin

... And I am perpetuating this misrepresenation?

You seem more than willing to perpetuate the misconception that i started the gay/straight argument... And have quoted me our of context in order to inforce it...

Originally Posted by Corwin

You and EJ continue to accuse me of "not wanting straight guys here".

Like you say, if things are quoted out of context then the true meaning can arguably be warped. I'm sure 99% of those that come and read this thread are confused over the cross fire.

Originally Posted by Corwin

I have never said that. Instead of accepting that denial, you argue with me that it was implied, insinuated or post quotations out of context. Try reading everything I have said rather than lying about it.

In order to make a statement such as "you argue with me" ofcourse depends on whos perspective your looking at. I have read everthing twice thanks. And I have NEVER lied at any point.

I think this entire thing is a result of mis-quotations, and miss-understandings. Either way, you still not willing to admit that i was not the one whom started the gay/straight argument are you?

Marc

[Corwin]

Originally Posted by Marco_ukmus

We all do! Even your guilty of this otherwise how would you explain the fact that you accused me of starting the whole gay/straight argument...?

The gay/straight argument was brought up by bb-61 first when I first pointed out that female muscle growth was inappropriate for this forum. Others have brought it up as well. When you dropped the male and focused solely on muscle growth, and your additional comments about heterosexual content of stories, I took that as the gay/straight argument as well. But you clearly were not the first to bring it up. At that point, however, I was simply too disgusted to keep ignoring it.

Originally Posted by Marco_ukmus

1) The fact that the current scope of the site, that of being MALE muscle growth could be diluted to simply muscle growth, thus both male and female muscle growth.

Yes, that is one cause.

Originally Posted by Marco_ukmus

2) The second issue of that of what i thought we were tackling by itself, that of allowing stories with hetrosexal content being allowed a place here on the forums. sions. Unless ofcourse, people (and the quite observers) are curious to know where this will lead...

Many people seem to be conflating this issue with that point. It boggles my mind that they are.

You have missed a third part -- fighting fair. EJ and you both accused me of using words and saying things that I did not say. This places a person on the defensive. If you had said, "Are you saying..." instead of saying "You said..." you would have gotten an entirely different response.

Originally Posted by Marco_ukmus

Either way, you still not willing to admit that i was not the one whom started the gay/straight argument are you?

See above. And, for the record, I read your message while I was responding to it. That means I didn't see this until after I had already cleared the record.

And, unless I missed it, you still have not corrected yourself that I never said this was a gay only forum. Brent has, apparently with impunity (more or less), but I never have.

[Marco_ukmus]

[color=white]Hi Corwin,[/color]

[color=white]I have trawled through both the original thread ?First experience with a girl? link [/color][color=white]http://www.musclegrowth.org/forum/showthread.php3?t=2193[/color][color=white] and this one, I stand corrected as I cannot locate any such statement made by you stating that this is a gay only site in either this thread or the original. Obviously I have not checked every single thread that you have ever contributed to, and have no intension to do so as it?s a complete waste of my time. I can?t speak for anyone else though, but if anyone else does find such a statement then please post it with a reference to the post number and thread name and not just simply a quotation. I think we have had enough mis-quotations to last a life time on here.[/color]

[color=white]With that out of the way, we may have resolved things between you and I, but having trawled through the original thread again, even though you said?[/color]

[color=white]

Originally Posted by Corwin

[color=#c6cdf3] I don't recall any gay/bi man ever complaining on this site about a story's heterosexual content

(Post #27 in the middle)[/color][/color]
[color=#c6cdf3][color=white][/color][/color]

[color=white]Unfortunately, as much as I?d like to agree with you, the original thread WAS indeed about this all along. [/color]

[color=white]I?m including lots of post numbers so that all that read this thread can follow it. So lets look at the evidence?[/color]

[color=white]After a couple of positive feedbacks regarding the story wrestlejock646 says (post #3)[/color]

[color=white]

Originally Posted by wrestlejock646

[/color]

[color=#c6cdf3][color=white]There's been a lot of discussion about where this forum is heading lately. Is it going to be a straight or gay oriented forum and is it going to be one in which there is a central theme of MALE muscle growth

[/color][/color]

[color=#c6cdf3][color=white]This arguably is the killer quotation since it states that is it going to be a straight or oriented forum? The other issue is what you were fighting for, that of staying a MALE Muscle growth forum, rather than a female one. I?ll compare this shortly with Flexodus?s post.[/color][/color]

[color=#c6cdf3][color=white]So it was from here the argument of the straight/gay thing was bone on this thread. And hence Ether enters to his disgust. (Post #5)[/color][/color]

[color=#c6cdf3][color=white]

Originally Posted by Ether

? who ever said that this was for "gay only" or "gay with a couple straight moments" types of stories?

[/color][/color]

[color=#c6cdf3][color=white]And goes on to say that being that he?s bisexual that he ?[/color][/color]

[color=#c6cdf3][color=white]

Originally Posted by Ether

?I absolutely love the "straight side" of muscle building and sex fantasy because you hardly ever see it.

[/color][/color]

[color=#c6cdf3][color=white]So we start to see that there although all of us unite in the MALE muscle growth, we differ depending on our sexual orientation so far as what happen after it or during the transformation. And when I say ?all?, its an assumption based on that fact that the title of the site is ?MALE? muscle growth, hence those who wish to post stories of female muscle growth are not welcome to share such stories here.[/color][/color]

[color=#c6cdf3][color=white]In post #7 Voyager states that ?[/color][/color]

[color=#c6cdf3][color=white]

Originally Posted by Voyager

If anything, this forum has shown that both straight and gay can have male muscle fantasies

[/color][/color]

[color=#c6cdf3][color=white]And quite right. We all unite in male muscle growth.[/color][/color]

[color=#c6cdf3][color=white]In post #9 Muscleluvr picks up on the mood of this gay/straight argument too?[/color][/color]

[color=#c6cdf3][color=white]

Originally Posted by Muscleluvr

[/color]

Originally Posted by Muscleluvr

[/color]

[color=#c6cdf3][color=white]the first two were congratulatory and thankful, then there was the 'how dare you sully this board with this hetero-non-muscle-growth stuff'. I read his post with interest, as he seemed to be referencing other posters who had expressed similar thoughts, but those posts were nowhere in evidence. So, I'm thinking, "edited or deleted" posts? I left the thread and the board. But the "how dare you post this" still gnawed at me...

[/color][/color]

[color=white][color=#c6cdf3]In post #19 by [/color]wrestlejock646 he states that?[/color]

[color=white][color=#c6cdf3][font=Verdana]

Originally Posted by [/font

[/color] wrestlejock646[color=#c6cdf3]][/color][/color]

[color=#c6cdf3][color=white]I do stand by the comments I made in which I agreed with Corwin and Leather Gryphon on some of the "drift" issues that are inherent with broadening the scope of this board to include stories which have only incidental muscle growth and strictly straight behaviour between characters.

[/color][/color]

[color=#c6cdf3][color=white]So this is where the misconception of you not wanting straight content in stories arguably starts. I agree that this ?drift? of the scope of the stories should not be diluted into incidental male muscle growth and that is should contain more than simply a passing reference. But what I don?t agree with, and this is where Ether et al, are getting somewhat ticked off about, is the next part of the sentence about strict straight behaviour. Thus implying that there always has to be some kind of homoerotic content. [/color][/color]

[color=#c6cdf3][color=white]At Post #22 is where I enter the arena and back Ether up having just picked up this whole gay/straight argument.[/color][/color]

[color=white][color=#c6cdf3]From post #23 is where you entered the arena but with the next three posts failed to settle the misconception that [/color]wrestlejock646 had laid down for you. Your right, anyone of us could have asked you a direct question about whether you actually had any objections to straight content in stories, but everyone made that assumption of you based on the evidence highlighted above.[/color]

[color=white]Moving on, Iceman75 picks states that? (post #29)[/color]

[color=white][color=#c6cdf3][font=Verdana]

Originally Posted by [/font

[/color] Iceman75[color=#c6cdf3]][/color][/color]

[color=#c6cdf3][color=white]?We would like to read more hetero-themed material. Now saying that, it seems to me that the non-hetero community, which no doubt comprises the majority of this site has been very defensive, feeling that when a hetero-themed story comes on the site, it will begin the destruction of the site as a whole.

[/color][/color]

[color=#c6cdf3][color=white]And both the straight and bisexual guys want to read more material with hetro themed stories. Obviously they would have to meet the criteria of including male muscle growth. This is further backed up by a comment made early on by various people, enter RadioKida, (Post #2) (With all those fantastic stories and morphs of his, did you know he?s straight (ref yahoo profile), who said straight guys can?t be into male muscle growth ;0) )[/color][/color]

[color=white][color=#c6cdf3][font=Verdana]

Originally Posted by [/font

[/color] [color=#c6cdf3]RadioKida][/color][/color]

[color=#c6cdf3][color=white]?nice to see something hetero for a change... it made my day!

[/color][/color]

[color=#c6cdf3][color=white]And Ether, post #5[/color][/color]

[color=white][color=#c6cdf3][font=Verdana]

Originally Posted by [/font

[/color] [color=#c6cdf3]Ether][/color][/color]

[color=#c6cdf3][color=white]I absolutely love the "straight side" of muscle building and sex fantasy because you hardly ever see it.

[/color][/color]

[color=#c6cdf3][color=white]I?d personally love to see more hetro (with male muscle growth) stories be given a place here? and I?m sure many would.[/color][/color]

[color=#c6cdf3][color=white]Ok, Enter the master ;0) Flexodus, Post #30[/color][/color]

[color=#c6cdf3][color=white]

Originally Posted by Flexodus

[/color]

Originally Posted by Flexodus

[/color]

[color=#c6cdf3][color=white]I think as long as the emphasis of a story is on male muscle growth, then the content of the post would be relevant to the stated content of the forum. Of course what one considers to be an 'emphasis' on something could vary from person to person. And I think this is where a lot of the disagreements lie. There have been a number of stories posted that (in my opinion) have touched upon the male muscle growth element so briefly as to seem an afterthought. This story is one of them. I honestly don't mind it when stories have gay or straight sex scenes... but only when the story as a whole is balanced so that members can enjoy the CORE elements of male muscle growth, irrespective of whether or not the story continues on to involve any gay or straight sex. Remember, MALE MUSCLE GROWTH is the subject of this website and of the stories posted here.

[/color][/color]

[color=#c6cdf3][color=white]He states that the emphasis should be on male muscle growth. This is what I thought was a certainty ? given the name of the site. What?s interesting is that he states that he does not mind if the story goes on to have gay or straight, or a mixture thereof, sexual content, as long as the emphasis is on MALE muscle growth. So he?s saying that stories that contain straight content (putting the male muscle growth thing to one side for a second) has just as much right to be included here as gay content. So there ought to be no further arguments on this line as we have in effect heard the final word from the master right? Evidently not. People despite of this fact are still saying that this is an exclusive club in which heterosexual content with stories is not welcome. I?m sure given the evidence above, you can see this now.[/color][/color]

[color=#c6cdf3][color=white]In post #32, massingUP goes on to states that?[/color][/color]

[color=#c6cdf3][color=white]

Originally Posted by massingUP

[/color]

Originally Posted by massingUP

[/color]

[color=#c6cdf3][color=white]But just because gay people are in a majority here in this particular site doesn't change the fact that we are distinctly outnumbered in the world-at-large -- and that means that we can be rather defensive about gay-friendly spaces that seem like they might be at the beginning of a process of slipping away...

[/color][/color]

[color=#c6cdf3][color=white]Thus there lies in black and white, or in this case white and blue ;0) the fact that there are wider issues being thrown into this already over complicated and heavy mix of an argument.[/color][/color]

[color=#c6cdf3][color=white]In post #37, with the stage already well set for this heated gay/straight argument, you say that?[/color][/color]

[color=#c6cdf3][color=white]

Originally Posted by Corwin

[/color]

Originally Posted by Corwin

[/color]

[color=#c6cdf3][color=white]What I got was that the gay/straight argument. I get arguments about heterosexual sex. Those are red herrings. Again, the owner of the site agrees.

[/color][/color]

[color=#c6cdf3][color=white]I think you can agree that with all the evidence pilled above, that unfortunately the gay/straight argument is not a red herring, but indeed a real issue that people are addressing here. The owner of the site agrees with on the male muscle growth, but assuming that you were against hetro sexual content being in the stories, meant that he did not agree with you on the exclusive homosexual content only. Now, that we have discovered that you have nothing against hetro sexual content being in stories so long as the, like flexodus said, the emphasis is on the male muscle growth, then that?s sorted.[/color][/color]

[color=#c6cdf3][color=white]I?m clearly not the only one to have made that assumption about you. BB-61, has obviously picked up on this misconception of you just as much as Ether, I and god knows how many others.[/color][/color]

[color=#c6cdf3][color=white]Moving on to this thread (post ending soon), roodinverse post#1 started by listing what?s not/or should not be allowed?[/color][/color]

[color=#c6cdf3][color=white]

Originally Posted by [b

roodinverse[/b]][/color]

Originally Posted by [b

[/color]

[color=#c6cdf3][color=white]I think this one is ok, however, especially considering we already have plenty of stories with no "growth" (just the after effects), aliens, fanfiction, magic, heterosexuals, furries, etc.

[/color][/color]

[color=#c6cdf3][color=white]At this point, post #2, you will note that I was straight in there to say how it was that gay and bi stories with no male muscle growth were some how inferred as to be acceptable since they were not added to this inappropriate list. Surely, it should have included any story that does not have an emphasis on male muscle growth, regardless of the sexual content, whether that be straight or gay or mixture thereof, should not be allowed. I think you can see what I mean?[/color][/color]

[color=#c6cdf3][color=white]As for Brent?s post, post #9?[/color][/color]

[color=#c6cdf3][color=white]

Originally Posted by [b

Brent[/b]][/color]

Originally Posted by [b

[/color]

[color=#c6cdf3][color=white]This site is a primarily gay site, for MALE MUSCLE GROWTH. If you straight guys want your own site, start one up! Flexodous pays for this site with HIS OWN MONEY. If you don't like that, either find another site to harass, or review the rules of capitalism.

[/color][/color]

[color=#c6cdf3][color=white]We know its primarily a gay site, and we know the scope or content has the emphasis of MALE muscle growth. WE know that we can go setup up own own site but we have chosen to be here with you. We know that Flexodous pays the bills with his own money, and on that note, if he setup a donations PayPal account, I?m sure he?d have that more than covered. I don?t think we?re harassing anyone, I?m sure not. I believe in the main we are having a civilized debate.[/color][/color]

[color=#c6cdf3][color=white]What?s interesting is the way in which the first sentence is formulated and the close proximity of the ?a gay site? ?for MALE Muscle growth?? Where does it say that it is a gay site for male muscle growth? I know the majority are gay here, but there is a lot of other people whom make up the diversity of this group like bisexuals and straight guys. So this close proximity of the two section ?a gay site? ?for male muscle growth? only emphasises this under lying issue of ownership among the gay members (or at least portrayed by a few on their behalf) and thus only emphasises this feeling of exclusion.[/color][/color]

[color=#c6cdf3][color=white]Its interesting though how various gay members do feel appreciation for the straight guys being here?[/color][/color]

[color=#c6cdf3][color=white]Post #6 (this thread)[/color][/color]

[color=#c6cdf3][color=white]

Originally Posted by [b

glammaman2000[/b]][/color]

Originally Posted by [b

[/color]

[color=white][color=#c6cdf3]I sincerely hope...[/color][color=#c6cdf3]that none of this will be construed as a wish to make straight,bi,or female members feel unwelcome.Some of us(me)don't even read the stories;but very much enjoy the muscle-community features of the Forum;& the diversity of the input is what keeps it stimulating.I think it's cool that more than a few straight guys are comfortable hashing it out on what is clearly a gay-dominated site.

[/color][/color]

[color=#c6cdf3][color=white]And Post #32 (the other thread)[/color][/color]

[color=#c6cdf3][color=white]

Originally Posted by [b

massingUP[/b]][/color]

Originally Posted by [b

[/color]

[color=#c6cdf3][color=white]I don't think that anyone here has any problem with any of the actual PEOPLE who are currently posting here -- after all, you have clearly entered a gay-friendly erotic space in good faith and with a great deal of grace and open-mindedness. And that's wonderful. I personally appreciate it a great deal and I think that it bodes well for a more tolerant future...

[/color][/color]

[color=#c6cdf3][color=white]And so with comment like Brent?s et al, people like Ether, me and others see this as trying to make this thing exclusive. I understand that I have entered a predominately gay arena, but there is a hell of lot of bisexual people here, and they, like Ether et al pointed out, like to read hetro sexual content in stories just as much as I do.[/color][/color]

[color=#c6cdf3][color=white]Jerry Springer equivalent of the final thought ;0)[/color][/color]

[color=#c6cdf3][color=white]I would have suggested that we hold a pole to see whether people think heterosexual content (with assumed male muscle growth) is allowed. However, Flexodus has already stated that it is allowed (post #30 other thread). Thus as Brent has pointed out as well as many others, since he pays the bills, he has the final say on what is, and what?s not allowed to be included. Thus stories that have sexual content aimed at the straight reader, bisexual reader, or gay reader are allowed, so long as they have an emphasis on MALE MUSCLE GROWTH. What?s definitely NOT allowed is female muscle growth stories. This should be self explanatory given the title of the site. Finally, having sorted that out, we still have the final task of arguably defining guidelines as to how much male muscle growth a given story should have in order for it to qualify. As Flexodus has stated and as I have stated many times in the other thread, since we all have different writing styles and have different preferences in terms of they way we want the male muscle growth scenes to be described, defining such guidelines is going to be extremely hard. Also, let?s say we have formulated these guidelines, since anyone can simply submit their story without it being checked, how will they be enforced? Obviously someone can delete them sure, but this will mean someone, or some people have to read through the entire thing to check them out first. If I might be so bold as to make a suggestion, I would suggest that the job of identifying duff or inappropriate stories comes down to the community to decide and Flexodus to enforce. Thus we have some kind of voting system. I?m not saying we ought to design or build anything, just perhaps leave comments of objection at the end of a story if one has such an opinion. Of course, there are problems with this, do we say Flex takes the majority and makes a decision of whether or not to delete it based on that? And what time limit do you give for people to read it and cast their opinions? You see, this whole issue is very complex, and enforcing it will be quite challenging, not impossible, but challenging.[/color][/color]

[color=#c6cdf3][color=white]Ok I?ve contributed way too much to this thread already, and I?m sure 99.9% of you aren?t even still reading this?[/color][/color]

[color=#c6cdf3][color=white]Marc[/color][/color]

[Corwin]

Originally Posted by Marco_ukmus

[color=white]Hi Corwin,[/color]

[color=white]I have trawled through both the original thread ?First experience with a girl? link [/color][color=white]http://www.musclegrowth.org/forum/showthread.php3?t=2193[/color][color=white] and this one, I stand corrected as I cannot locate any such statement made by you stating that this is a gay only site in either this thread or the original.

Thank you. However, that is not the original thread. It might have been the first you noticed, but this particular round of discussion started on Massium part 4 with requests for "female muscle growth" on this site. If you note the history there, you can see that there are a number of posters bringing up the gay/straight argument. For any number of days, I tried to stick to my original point that this site is about "male muscle growth", and that the "male" was significant. When you dropped the "male", I reacted because of this longer history. I apologize if I was misreading your intentions.

Originally Posted by Marco_ukmus

From post #23 is where you entered the arena

As I said, that thread is not the original thread. Yes, the argument did spill over to that thread, and the participants there were taking a slightly different tack. However, many of the participants in the other thread were quite united that female muscle growth should be permitted. In fact, the author of massium's last post was that he does intend to post a chapter dealing with that topic.

The fact that there seems to be two sets of views on this is a problem.

Originally Posted by Marco_ukmus

[color=#c6cdf3]Ok, Enter the master ;0) Flexodus, Post #30 [/color]

Without saying too much, a couple of us IMed Flexodus to make that post. He was otherwise occupied and blissfully ignorant of what was transpiring in several of the threads here. What he wrote agrees with my position about 90+ percent.

Originally Posted by Marco_ukmus

[color=#c6cdf3][color=white]I think you can agree that with all the evidence pilled above, that unfortunately the gay/straight argument is not a red
herring, but indeed a real issue that people are addressing here. [/color][/color]

No, it really is a red herring from where I sit. The issue for me is why bring it up this argument at all?

Originally Posted by Marco_ukmus

[color=#c6cdf3][color=white]I?m clearly not the only one to have made that assumption about you. BB-61, has obviously picked up on this misconception of you just as much as Ether, I and god knows how many others.[/color][/color]

I have already twice posted my statement about the suitability of heterosexual sex on this forum. Anyone who jumps to the conclusion that I have a problem with heterosexual content here is obviously not reading for content. This is not my fault, it is their's. And, if you look at BB-61, he seems to believe that "female muscle growth" is the same (or a subset of) "heterosexual content". They are not the same, and excluding "female muscle growth" in no way implies excluding all "heterosexual content".

Originally Posted by Marco_ukmus

[color=#c6cdf3][color=white]I would have suggested that we hold a pole to see whether people think heterosexual content (with assumed male muscle growth) is allowed. [/color][/color]

You objected to my statements about privilege and minorities/majorites. The above is a classic way that a majority restricts the rights or a minority -- putting it up to a vote. In the US, we are currently seeing this with constitutional amendments banning marriage for same-sex couples. LGBT people make up something like 4% of the voting population, so whenever our rights are put up to a vote, we tend to lose. I said something like, 'many of you straight boys aren't use to being in a minority.' Your example above is exactly what I mean. If this is a gay space or a gay-safe space, one way to force it to be something else is to use numbers and a majority to take that away. MassingUp's post about his experience in gay bars demonstrates this.

As this forum gets more straight male members, the threat is that they will use their greater numbers to force change, either by voting or not respecting the purpose of this group (i.e. male muscle growth). That is why there is so much argument over the Massium thread's threat of introducing "female muscle growth" and the inappropriateness of "my first time with a girl."

[Marco_ukmus]

Originally Posted by Corwin

Thank you. However, that is not the original thread. It might have been the first you noticed, but this particular round of discussion started on Massium part 4 with requests for "female muscle growth" on this site. If you note the history there, you can see that there are a number of posters bringing up the gay/straight argument. For any number of days, I tried to stick to my original point that this site is about "male muscle growth", and that the "male" was significant. When you dropped the "male", I reacted because of this longer history. I apologize if I was misreading your intentions.

Yeah, I was not sure where the other debates were being held, not that i wish to get involved i might add, but it might have helped me get a better perspective of the problem. Ill be sure to check it out.

Originally Posted by Corwin

No, it really is a red herring from where I sit. The issue for me is why bring it up this argument at all?.

Good question. I dont know the answer. Like you know, I just came into this debate really late on in retaliation to what i was reading. Like you say, if theres no objection to the straight and gay content being included in stories (as long as they meet the emphasis on male muscle growth) then why is this debate happening... don't know... It just somehow has and is.

Originally Posted by Corwin

BB-61, he seems to believe that "female muscle growth" is the same (or a subset of) "heterosexual content".

Well as we Flexodus, you and I have said (with words to effect), any such posting would be in direct conflict with the very title of this site, thus inappropriate.

Originally Posted by Corwin

They are not the same, and excluding "female muscle growth" in no way implies excluding all "heterosexual content".

Indeed.

Originally Posted by Corwin

You objected to my statements about privilege and minorities/majorites. The above is a classic way that a majority restricts the rights or a minority -- putting it up to a vote. In the US, we are currently seeing this with constitutional amendments banning marriage for same-sex couples. LGBT people make up something like 4% of the voting population, so whenever our rights are put up to a vote, we tend to lose. I said something like, 'many of you straight boys aren't use to being in a minority.' Your example above is exactly what I mean. If this is a gay space or a gay-safe space, one way to force it to be something else is to use numbers and a majority to take that away. MassingUp's post about his experience in gay bars demonstrates this.

Ok, given the context in which you have explained it in, I can see where you coming from. When you orginally made this remark about straight guys living a life of privilege, I think Ether and I just assumed you meant in the wider context, as in life in general. With regards to the voting idea, I was just trying to seek a solusion to help things here. If anything, it would no doubt work against me anyway, being that straight guys are the minority. Having said that it would have depended how the pole was presented. As I have shown in my last post on this thread, some people actually are glad that we are here and are contributing. Like iceman75 (post #29 other thread) said, we straight guys arn't trying to take over at all. Having said that, I can see why you are concerned if too many join and try to stear things away from where we are now. But I would only hope for both your sake, my sake and the rest of the current muscle loving communities sake that Flexodus would put an end to it before any such changes would conflict with the very title of this site "Male Muscle Growth".

I really don't know what else to suggest... People of any sexuality or sex can freely join this site as and when they wish to with out any investigatory prejudgments being made (like some yahoo groups where you have to write a few words to the moderator). Even if we had such a system in place here, how can you make any such judements on whether someone is suitable for the site and allowed to make posts purely based on a small bit of text that they have written. How would one know that they would not help stear the group away from the focus of which it was established? Sorry, I know im being the devils advocate here, but I'm just trying to help resolve this. Most people might wonder why im bothering... I think i wonder that myself... But this site is great and I think its worth it... You obviously feel its worth fighting for since your more than willing to sit there and write replies just as much as i do. I guess its guys like us, with such determination, that will reach our goals in the gym and become huge. After all, becoming big is all about determination and constantly working at it until you achieve what you want.

Sorry, slight tangent (had to end on a positive note though)

So where do we go from here?

Marc

[Radiokida]

enter RadioKida, (Post #2) (With all those fantastic stories and morphs of his, did you know he?s straight (ref yahoo profile), who said straight guys can?t be into male muscle growth ;0) )

Just wanted to clarify that I don't have any stories. I have morphs (and thanks for calling them fantastic, I really appreciate it) but no (uploaded) stories. I do write stories, but I seem to have too many ideas at the same time and I never finish a story, plus they wouldn't be appropriate to be posted here anyway.

[BB-61]

Originally Posted by Corwin

I have already twice posted my statement about the suitability of heterosexual sex on this forum. Anyone who jumps to the conclusion that I have a problem with heterosexual content here is obviously not reading for content. This is not my fault, it is their's. And, if you look at BB-61, he seems to believe that "female muscle growth" is the same (or a subset of) "heterosexual content". They are not the same, and excluding "female muscle growth" in no way implies excluding all "heterosexual content".

You know, I would really appreciate it if you didn't put words into my mouth like that.

First let's recognize that it takes a bit of time to compose a completed thought on any forum. As it is, the demands of my business keep me from spending a couple of hours to research every line of what has been said.

If I have been too brief in the past to be clearly understood, so be it, but I can tell you that Corwin has not really grasped my thoughts.

Let's see if I can spell this out in a way that can be understood by the majority of people, because it seems to me that Corwin has no desire or charity to really understand me.

1) I absolutley recognize that the vast majority of stories here contain homosexual content, either by acutal descriptions of homosexual sex or by atitude of the protagonists.
2) I am straight, but my hunger for male muscle growth has brought me here, the largest and best place to find male muscle growth stories.
3) Like it or not there is a bi/straight audience in the minorty here.
4) My personal desire is to see some heterosexual stories mixed in from time to time. I would really like it if we could develop a code that is as detailed as found on overflowingbra.com - This way the gay audience could know "caution heterosexual content" and straights could know "caution gay content".
5) I re-state my desire just so that it is better understood to those now joining the thread. However, it is simply a wish, and I do not demand that it be fufilled. It's just polling data.

That being said, I still will read gay stories. They don't bother me as much as you might assume. However, if there were a way to select heterosexual themed stories, I would naturally read and re-read those first.

The archive has a huge number of stories, and if there were a way to search and filter to find what we individually enjoy, I think all would be served.

I agree that no story belongs here unless there is MALE Muscle Growth.
However, I also believe that if MMG exists, and is the primary focus of the story, female muscle growth and/or heterosexual themes need not be excluded.

There has been discussion of http://www.thevalkyrie.com and that this a good site for female muscle growth, and that should satisfy me. Anyone who holds that opinion is painting with a very broad brush. Again, my desire in MMG is that the male is larger and dominates the female. thevalkyrie.com is clearly about female domination of the male. I would prefer to read the gay themed stories here over anything contained on that site. Sorry, but you're stuck with me so long as this site coninutes as it has with the focus on MMG and being the single largest respoistory of this material.

I have also recognized in the past that this is not a public site, and the final rule of what is acceptable really comes from the owner(s) of the site and not the one or two individuals who are simply the most vocal about their desires.

[glammaman2000]

...I think this discussion has been very healthy!Our straight & straightish members;like Marco,Ether,Voyager,Radiokida,et.al.;make VERY valuable contributions;in spite of their affliction;& I'd hate to lose even one of them.If they choose to share their fantasies,they may include heterosex(eeuww!)Quelle surprise.In a pinch;the gay members(like me)can do what Marcos does,& avert their eyes.So let's all take a deep breath(...."aaaahh!"....)& take comfort in the deep;UNDERLYING message of"Queer Eye for the Straight Guy":a)gay & straight men can enjoy each other's company.b)gay & straight men can LEARN from each other.& most importantly,c)as long as the gay guys outnumber the straight guys 5-to-1,it's a perfect world!Cheers!

[glammaman2000]

Style point:try to avoid references like..."...as she flexed the bulk of her awesomely pumped-up clitoris...."Thanks.

[Marco_ukmus]

Originally Posted by glammaman2000

c)as long as the gay guys outnumber the straight guys 5-to-1,it's a perfect world!Cheers!

Lol! Actually I think its more like serveral hundred to one on here, so you'll have to queue up and wait your turn... (im only joking)

Thanks for your constructive comments though Glam.

As for BB61, you have made some good suggestions there with regard to some code or identification system being implemented. Even sites like metabods.com have indicators beside the stories so you know what they have inside them (not that i'd know obviously). I'm sure the same thing could be applied here. There would obviously be an initial weak point as the thing is introduced but once all the stories have this type of indication that you describe, I think that may help no end :0)

Marc

[Marco_ukmus]

Yeah bb61, Now a search facility would be fantastic. The ability not only to search by say author and keywords in the title, but also by genre, say muscle growth prehaps sub-definied into various catagories, (say jock, bb, massive, gigantic). Then have a set of options to select what sexual orientation you want to have (gay, straight, or mixed -bi). Damn it, I'd even give some free time as a software engineer to help add these features into the ASP stroy site. I'm assuming its just a standard asp front end with a backend database... Well Flexodus some of my times up for grabs if you want it... Obviously we could not expect you to implement it single handedly given that you pay for this site.

Marc

[Corwin]

Originally Posted by Marco_ukmus

Good question. I dont know the answer. Like you know, I just came into this debate really late on in retaliation to what i was reading. Like you say, if theres no objection to the straight and gay content being included in stories (as long as they meet the emphasis on male muscle growth) then why is this debate happening... don't know... It just somehow has and is.

Well, first, people did not accept that this site is about male muscle growth. They made bogus free speech arguments to rationalize posting anything. That's what caused the objections in the "my first time with a girl" thread. As you might note, as soon as I objected to female muscle growth on this site, bb-61 turned that into the "you don't want heterosexual content". As we seem to agree, those are totally different arguments. And I stand by my speculations as to why it is coming up.

Originally Posted by Marco_ukmus

Ok, given the context in which you have explained it in, I can see where you coming from. When you orginally made this remark about straight guys living a life of privilege, I think Ether and I just assumed you meant in the wider context, as in life in general. With regards to the voting idea, I was just trying to seek a solusion to help things here. If anything, it would no doubt work against me anyway, being that straight guys are the minority.

Perhaps. I pointed out where the "female muscle growth" argument came up two years ago. It ended rather quickly. This one went on longer. It went on longer because there are more straight guys here. The assumption is that there are a lot of gay guys, but that too is only an assumption,

Originally Posted by Marco_ukmus

we straight guys arn't trying to take over at all. Having said that, I can see why you are concerned if too many join and try to stear things away from where we are now.

Male privilege, heterosexual privilege and heterosexual male privilege are ingrained in american and english society. Whether trying or not, the expectations of many straight people are simply to assume the privileges society has bestowed on them. It is only when those privileges are threatened that they begin to realize that they even had them in the first place.

Originally Posted by Marco_ukmus

So where do we go from here?

Respect that this site is about male muscle growth. Don't try and force change simply because you can. Someone early on in this thread tried to start a discussion about drift that has already happened -- strength stories like SuperPower Universe for example. Especially at this time when tempers have run high, posting stories like "my first time with a girl" or adding elements of female muscle growth will only cause problems.

Authors and posters have until very recently been respectful of the main purpose of this site. Continuing to be respectful of that purpose is really the only course of action.

[roodinverse]

SA you probably know, I started this to get this discussion OUT OF a story thread and INTO its own thread; then I left for the weekend. I come back to see it has become a healthy and vigourous discussion without spiralling far, far downward into a petty flamewar. Thank you all for exceeding my expectations.

Marco_ukmus: you totally misinterpreted the part of my post you quoted. I was citing those examples as other elements that are freely made a part of muscle growth stories here. Male genital growth fantasy, technically, is its own genre and can be very cleanly separated from muscle growth fantasy. I just wanted to say that most muscle growth stories ALSO INCLUDE genital growth, even though they are separate subjects. I realise now that I phrased it awkwardly, but do note that nowhere in that paragraph you quoted did I say any of those examples was inappropriate. What I meant was that stories including those elements ON THIS SITE have always remembered that the POINT was the musclemen.

Still, this particular gay muscle fetishist happily welcomes anyone with a shared interest, a good mind, and a "heart in the right place" to this forum, regardless of minor details like sexuality, gender, and race. Roodinverse also happily welcomes any male muscle writing or art as long as it's MALE MUSCLE writing or art. He believes that should get his point across well enough. He will stop referring to himself in the third person, now.

Finally, I'm surprised no one was offended by the crack I made about fans of macro-furry she-male balloon bondage fantasies. I mean, aren't they people too?

--rood

[Corwin]

Originally Posted by roodinverse

I just wanted to say that most muscle growth stories ALSO INCLUDE genital growth, even though they are separate subjects.

There are size queens and there are liars. Muscles and penises are both expressions of extreme masculinity. I'm not surprised at the mixing of the two.

Originally Posted by roodinverse

Finally, I'm surprised no one was offended by the crack I made ...

Novice. If you want the bullseye, I think I am done with it now.

[ethernet_jock]

Well......

As I sit here, 15 minutes away from a morning full of exciting meetings.... clearly I don't have enough time to properly review and respond to this weekend's remarkable onslaght of clever debate.

I also promised to discontinue arguing as the attempt is clearly futile.

SO with that, all I can say is..... Corwin, every time I read something that you write to or about me.... all I can see is "This is what I actually meant... not what you're suggesting"

And then just as I begin to believe you and start to feel a bit remorseful... . you go and say something stupid and generalistic about "straight society" or "someone trying to take over" and completely ruin your own argument.

Then... you have to insist that you must be right and I must be wrong because I misinterpreted everything you said! Meanwhile, you've gone out of your way to do the same.

No - I don't have the energy or desire to go through everything you've written and you and Markus have so intelligently argued over the last few days and highlight the parts where I think you've said that.

Instead I will simply state --- THIS IS HOW IT LOOKS FROM WHERE I SIT --- rather than "YOU ARE" or "YOU AREN'T"...

And that's about what it comes down to. A matter of perspective. Those who agree with me, will continue to (and I have received MUCH support in email and private messages from gay and straight alike). Those who do not, will continue to. We have changed nothing, we are simply more sure of where we stand. Any more highlighting of the chasm will make no advantage to either argument and only eventually serve to take us both down.

I will not, can not, and refuse to apologize to a person I view as a total heterophobic (hey! I made a new word!) bigot who clearly underlines his agenda with carefully placed words and meanings throughout every argument he poses - that means you - Corwin. Maybe you don't even see it, but to me, it's obvious. Furthermore - if my attitude alone is enough to cause you to get your pink silk panties all bunched up, take your stories away from all the people who love and appreciate you, and run away... then I challenge that you are not a man at all - less a child of 8 in a man's body.

"I don't like how you guys play basketball so I'm taking my ball back and going home - wah wah wah."

sound familiar?

Grow up. If you don't ever talk to me again, I won't be hurt.... please. Just don't be such a moron. It's so disappointing to see someone who is obviously intelligent and yet completely immature.