Myostatin Update

[dallasmsl]

Originally Posted by RyBearATL

Hopefully this will successfully move through trials.

http://www.pharmalive.com/News/index...&categoryid=40

Agreed! I'm heading to Italy soon and it would be nice to visit the Pharmacy there and snatch some "samples" or volunteer to be a guinea pig. But, since I am not a doctor and don't speak the language, I don't think my chances are very good. Plus, with my build, I think they'd see through my bodybuilding attempts! LOL. Oh well.

[redwolf64]

It seems to me that the German baby with the myostatin blocking gene would indicate that it's a mutation that does occur in humans from time to time - I wonder if any researchers are looking at that angle for the long term health effects? It does occur in nature and is well known with goats and other species.

[TheMM]

Originally Posted by dallasmsl

Agreed! I'm heading to Italy soon and it would be nice to visit the Pharmacy there and snatch some "samples" or volunteer to be a guinea pig. But, since I am not a doctor and don't speak the language, I don't think my chances are very good. Plus, with my build, I think they'd see through my bodybuilding attempts! LOL. Oh well.

I don't speak Italian, I do have a non-bodybuilder body type, but I'm also not going to Italy any time soon so....your chances are better then mine dsml, good luck.

[massingUP]

Damned impressive pic... even if it's not the right species.

http://www.canada.com/victoriatimesc...timescolonist/

[dallasmsl]

Originally Posted by massingUP

Damned impressive pic... even if it's not the right species.

http://www.canada.com/victoriatimesc...timescolonist/

Now that is one amazing picture! Thanks.

[DaBigGuy1]

Originally Posted by dallasmsl

Agreed! I'm heading to Italy soon and it would be nice to visit the Pharmacy there and snatch some "samples" or volunteer to be a guinea pig. But, since I am not a doctor and don't speak the language, I don't think my chances are very good. Plus, with my build, I think they'd see through my bodybuilding attempts! LOL. Oh well.

I thought I could scoop up a sample of anything even remotely like that! LOL!!

And they could eye me all over as long as they passed it on! LOL!

Ron IIII-----IIII

[redwolf64]

Here's an article I found the other day about another toddler they've found with the myostatin gene condition (the article is from May 07):

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNew...70530/20070530

The thing I'm wondering is whether this gene condition might be more common in humans than scientists believe - I'm sure we've all run into guys that seem to be muscular without working out or doing much. It'd be curious for a researcher to do some systematic research about atheletes to see if some do have the myostatin blocker gene and how they compare with those that don't.

It'll be curious to see if this kid becomes and athlete someday and how he develops.

[dallasmsl]

You're probably right in your assumption that the blocking-gene is more common than is readily known. I know I've seen guys who look like they have great bodies and NEVER have lifted a weight. I hate them!

[dallasmsl]

My hopes for a myostatin controller of some kind is still high.
Can't wait until they can bring it to market!

[redwolf64]

Looks like they're making progress in other areas with mice:

http://www.buzzfeed.com/buzz/Supermouse

excerpt from the Independent article on the research:

The professor of biochemistry at Case Western Reserve University at Cleveland in Ohio, Richard Hanson, said that the physical performance of the supermouse can only be compared to supremely fit athletes like the cyclist Lance Armstrong, who won the Tour de France seven consecutive times from 1999 to 2005. The genetic alteration to a gene involved in glucose metabolism appears to stimulate the efficient use of body fat for energy production. At the same time, the mice do not suffer from a build up of lactic acid ? which causes muscle cramps ? a feature also seen in the best endurance athletes.

Professor Hanson said yesterday: "They are metabolically similar to Lance Armstrong biking up the Pyrenees. They utilise mainly fatty acids for energy and produce very little lactic acid. They are not eating or drinking and yet they can run for four or five hours. They are 10 times more active than ordinary mice in their home cage. They also live longer ? up to three years of age ? and are reproductively active for almost three years. In short, they are remarkable animals.

"On the downside, they eat twice as much as control mice, but they are half the weight, and are very aggressive. Why this is the case, we are not really sure."

Professor Hanson, who led the 15-strong team of researchers, said that the first supermouse was created about four years ago by injecting a highly active form of a gene for an enzyme called phosphonenolpyruvate carboxykinase (PEPCK-C) into a mouse embryo. The results of studies on the mice are published for the first time today in the Journal of Biological Chemistry.

[dallasmsl]

Originally Posted by redwolf64

"On the downside, they eat twice as much as control mice, but they are half the weight, and are very aggressive. Why this is the case, we are not really sure."

Professor Hanson, who led the 15-strong team of researchers, said that the first supermouse was created about four years ago by injecting a highly active form of a gene for an enzyme called phosphonenolpyruvate carboxykinase (PEPCK-C) into a mouse embryo. The results of studies on the mice are published for the first time today in the Journal of Biological Chemistry.

This is the FIRST time that I've heard anything about the "Aggressive" side affect in mouse. Puzzling. Is it because they know they're bad-asses??? LOL just kidding.

This is also the first time that I've heard of the PEPCK-C.

Thanks for the udate!

[dallasmsl]

Apparently, there has been considerable progress in Myostatin blockers. Read on for further information:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stamulumab

Now the question is WHEN will they bring it to Market?

[dallasmsl]

Sounds like a dream come true, yes?

Some guys think that when it is brought to market that it will end all working out and that fat people around the world will take it to look like Arnold.

uhhhh....fat chance.

There was a saying a long time ago: Build a better mousetrap and the world will beat a path to your door. Well, fantastic mouse-traps have been devised and yet I'll bet not one of you can name one of them! LOL. Okay, that wasn't the best analogy but people have long been told that something as simple as a proper diet and good exercise will help them look and feel better. Do you think they did it? No. So, even when a simple pill is eventually brought to market, only those like us, "rabid bodybuilders" and other assorted sports nuts will take it.

[viamanmax]

The last century was the century of physics, this is the century of biology.

My life is improving the human condition. That is why I am a biomedical engineer and I can tell you that in the next century, maybe not the next decade, virtually anything you could want altered will be just a one payment away. In the next two to three decades, we will be able to make a replacement organ for any part that fails, and with the advancement of whole system modeling of the body through computation we should be able to create a drug regimen to manipulate your metabolism in any way you choose.

An entire gene sequence of a small organism only takes a day and a half and 5000 dollars now. Soon your entire genetic sequence will be available as a standard test for under a grand. These technologies will change society, count on it.

The only problem is it will be the upper fraction of society living in this highly expensive altered state. Plan to have enough money saved for the best health-care.

[TheMM]

Originally Posted by viamanmax

The last century was the century of physics, this is the century of biology.

My life is improving the human condition. That is why I am a biomedical engineer and I can tell you that in the next century, maybe not the next decade, virtually anything you could want altered will be just a one payment away. In the next two to three decades, we will be able to make a replacement organ for any part that fails, and with the advancement of whole system modeling of the body through computation we should be able to create a drug regimen to manipulate your metabolism in any way you choose.

An entire gene sequence of a small organism only takes a day and a half and 5000 dollars now. Soon your entire genetic sequence will be available as a standard test for under a grand. These technologies will change society, count on it.

The only problem is it will be the upper fraction of society living in this highly expensive altered state. Plan to have enough money saved for the best health-care.

Technology is incredible.

Replacement organs? People would no longer need to worry about being on a "list" to get an organ...amazing...My great aunt died from not recieving an organ because she was so low on the list. It happened when I was too young to remember, but still, for it to not happen to someone else I know...astounding.

I'm not a geneticist (is that the correct term?), but an entire gene sequence in 36 hours and for only 5 grand is incredible. But then getting our own genetic sequence for less then 1,000 big ones means we could possibly get the proper drug regiment mentioned above.

Well, time to start saving, because by the time most of this stuff comes to fruition, I'll be fourty! And a lot of members here, even older. Insurance definately won't be covering any of this for a long time, if ever.

Viaman, this technology is truly going to change the world, but do you even slightly admit you're doing it for even the tiniest chance of living out some sort of muscle fantasy? If not, that's perfectly fine, I'm just curious.

I know I didn't add anything productive to this thread, but this info is amazing, I simply had to reply.

[viamanmax]

I can admit that I would definitely take advantage of it. I just need a boyfriend in the future who I can experiment on like all of these stories.

Though I am moreso interested in specializing in makeing people new organs. We can already reproduce a vein or artery segment with tissue engineering, and though that is quite simple it is not greatly different from some of the other things we will need to do.

By the way I think currently there are 84000 americans waiting for organs. If I can save some of there lives and make some of our fantasies come true at the same time, I would not only be fantasticaly rich, but I might be able to die happy.

P.S. 60 is going to be the new 40.

[TheMM]

Originally Posted by viamanmax

I can admit that I would definitely take advantage of it. I just need a boyfriend in the future who I can experiment on like all of these stories.

Though I am moreso interested in specializing in makeing people new organs. We can already reproduce a vein or artery segment with tissue engineering, and though that is quite simple it is not greatly different from some of the other things we will need to do.

By the way I think currently there are 84000 americans waiting for organs. If I can save some of there lives and make some of our fantasies come true at the same time, I would not only be fantasticaly rich, but I might be able to die happy.

P.S. 60 is going to be the new 40.

A boyfriend? Well, when this all happens, I'll gladly take that position if no one else in this world has.

Veins and arteries eh? Wow, even so, that's still something to talk about. My guess is the hard part about making organs is making sure they are made to do what they need to do.

84,000; phew. 300+ million people here in the U.S. and yet those people don't have the organs they need; Viaman, make that "list" non-existant.

When it comes down to it, you (hopefully) won't care about the money so much. Though dying happy will definately be a help.

60 will be the new 40? Then does that mean that 40 will be the new 20? If so, I can return to my current age (22 right now)! *really girly screaming* I'm so happy!

[skumbum]

Originally Posted by TheMM

Though dying happy will definately be a help.

Haha. Sounds like "Hope you die happy! And soon!"

[nypup2train]

Originally Posted by TheMM

60 will be the new 40?

...Where you been, young'un? At least in certain communities/nations, among certain populations, we're already pretty much there!

(Of course, we've been there before -- and will be again. By the turn of the 19th Century, 60 represented an age that most middle- and upper-class Westerners could imagine not only achieving, but experiencing as a self-sufficient, relatively vital elderly citizen. 200 years earlier they'd have been lucky to reach it at all. ...600 years before that? If you were "lucky" enough to make it to 40, you were that guy on the bridge in the "Holy Grail" movie, yammering on about airspeed velocities of fully-laden swallows.)

But there is an aging shift that's been gaining momentum in recent years. In many gay/urban communities it's especially pronounced (I feel) -- partially because of population disparities created artificially by the AIDS crisis. The determined, fortunate men and women (far too few) who've lasted 25 years living with or escaping from the plague are well-armed to face whatever biology and natural aging can fling at them, and they're not likely to put up any less of a fight against aging as they charge into their 50's and 60's.

A very close friend turned 50 last year. (Honestly and proudly, to his credit -- tho it was quite a surprise to many people who'd seen no reason to question his previous claims, up to that point, of being 41 or 42.) As I commented more than once to mutual acquaintances: "I hope I look half that good when I'm 50... hell, I'd like to look half that good now!"

All of this research, and much more like it, seems to mean that I may perhaps get my wish... and most likely, my friend will still be showing me up even at the ripe young age of 80.

-Pup

[nypup2train]

Originally Posted by nypup2train

All of this research, and much more like it, seems to mean that I may perhaps get my wish... and most likely, my friend will still be showing me up even at the ripe young age of 80.

And since I can't edit my posts in this forum: ...Yeah, I can do math. That should have read "ripe old age of 70." (Wishful thinking on my part, that I'm still in my 20's.)

-Pup

[viamanmax]

I grew up with todays standard of 40 not past erras, it is stated relative to that.

In addition. Did you know that the average lifespan in the UK has increased 5 hours every 24 hours in the past decades. That is based on the increase of 2.2 years per decade that has been average.

[dallasmsl]

One of the things that is true, regardless of what comes new pills or drugs come to market is that it is UP TO YOU! We all know guys and girls who train hard at the gym and are always told, "Gee, you don't look 55 at all!" and why? Because they choose to stay healthy!

Sans a physical dissability, nearly everyone has the same ability to eat properly and train hard. And I firmly believe that even with miracle drugs, that situation just won't change!


I've know MANY women who have had the lapband procedure in order to lose weight. And they did! But, they didn't change their diets nor did they start exercising and guess what happened? They got just as fat and prone to diseases as before! Crazy, right? You'd think that since they were given a second chance at good health that they'd take care of themselves but why should they do so now when they never did to begin with?

The point is, TAKE CARE OF YOURSELF! If the "miracle drug" does come to market, believe me, it won't work without your help!

[Ursine Muscle]

I just stumbled across this forum while doing a check up on myostatin research and am very happy with the news. I've been watching this topic for years now after seeing the first pictures of beef on the hoof who were treated and having a friend in bio-research.

First I just want to comment on Viamanmax's comments. From what I know and have read, I don't think he's far off. Pandora's Box with drugs and genetics is indeed open and for some, at least, much is promised. But it will only be for some. Let me make an observaton from part of my background, anthropology: any culture is only as strong as the weakest link.

The US is now in deep shit with our government ignoring real issues, like access to basic healthcare, while they stage a series of distractions, like organizing a witch hunt for steriods in pro-sports. Call you local congressperson and senator and complain. The US is 37th on the planet in the WHO healthcare rankings, the damned polar ice caps are melting and the US government is fascinated about the "moral" implications of pro athletes trying to get the edge on the competition. Its absurd. 22 other countries on this earth have fewer babies die at birth than the US.

So what does this mean for Hgh access for anti-aging and other modalities? It means that as long as we allow corporations to corner the market on access by giving us, "the best government money can buy", and the population allowing government to meddle in the private lives of adults, that almost all of us will be out in the cold. And this means that whatever is out there, very, very, very few of us will have access to it.

The weakest link in the US system is a non-political population allowing smoke screens to distract from what is important. So spending your life in the gym is great, but it has to be balanced with being aware of what is going on and how the next five years of your life will be impacted.

OK, off my soapbox.

[Ursine Muscle]

I just stumbled across this forum while doing a check up on myostatin research and am very happy with the news. I've been watching this topic for years now after seeing the first pictures of beef on the hoof who were treated and having a friend in bio-research.

First I just want to comment on Viamanmax's comments. From what I know and have read, I don't think he's far off. Pandora's Box with drugs and genetics is indeed open and for some, at least, much is promised. But it will only be for some. Let me make an observaton from part of my background, anthropology: any culture is only as strong as the weakest link.

The US is now in deep shit with our government ignoring real issues, like access to basic healthcare, while they stage a series of distractions, like organizing a witch hunt for steriods in pro-sports. Call you local congressperson and senator and complain. The US is 37th on the planet in the WHO healthcare rankings, the damned polar ice caps are melting and the US government is fascinated about the "moral" implications of pro athletes trying to get the edge on the competition. Its absurd. 22 other countries on this earth have fewer babies die at birth than the US.

So what does this mean for Hgh access for anti-aging and other modalities? It means that as long as we allow corporations to corner the market on access by giving us, "the best government money can buy", and the population allowing government to meddle in the private lives of adults, that almost all of us will be out in the cold. And this means that whatever is out there, very, very, very few of us will have access to it.

The weakest link in the US system is a non-political population allowing smoke screens to distract from what is important. So spending your life in the gym is great, but it has to be balanced with being aware of what is going on and how the next five years of your life will be impacted.

OK, off my soapbox.

[dallasmsl]

You sound as if you believe in Libertarian principles, yes?

[Lifter73]

Originally Posted by Ursine Muscle

I just stumbled across this forum while doing a check up on myostatin research and am very happy with the news. I've been watching this topic for years now after seeing the first pictures of beef on the hoof who were treated and having a friend in bio-research.

First I just want to comment on Viamanmax's comments. From what I know and have read, I don't think he's far off. Pandora's Box with drugs and genetics is indeed open and for some, at least, much is promised. But it will only be for some. Let me make an observaton from part of my background, anthropology: any culture is only as strong as the weakest link.

The US is now in deep shit with our government ignoring real issues, like access to basic healthcare, while they stage a series of distractions, like organizing a witch hunt for steriods in pro-sports. Call you local congressperson and senator and complain. The US is 37th on the planet in the WHO healthcare rankings, the damned polar ice caps are melting and the US government is fascinated about the "moral" implications of pro athletes trying to get the edge on the competition. Its absurd. 22 other countries on this earth have fewer babies die at birth than the US.

So what does this mean for Hgh access for anti-aging and other modalities? It means that as long as we allow corporations to corner the market on access by giving us, "the best government money can buy", and the population allowing government to meddle in the private lives of adults, that almost all of us will be out in the cold. And this means that whatever is out there, very, very, very few of us will have access to it.

The weakest link in the US system is a non-political population allowing smoke screens to distract from what is important. So spending your life in the gym is great, but it has to be balanced with being aware of what is going on and how the next five years of your life will be impacted.

OK, off my soapbox.

Very very well put!

[viamanmax]

I had a four paragraph response written before I decided that it is best not to hijack a thread. I simply ask you to realize that the political statements you make were basically given to you. The issues are not this simple. For example infant mortality rates are very complex issues that no one has an effective answer to at the moment. Don't be to righteous.

[dallasmsl]

Hi Drew,
Just so you know there is only ONE candidate who wants to end the war on drugs. He thinks that the federal government has no business in your personal life or lifestyle. And he isn't a Democrat. Some say he's not really a Republican either! His name is Ron Paul. He stands for individual liberties. I don't agree with him on all of his points but I do agree with him on what he stands for which is something I have found in none of the other Democrats.
Dave

[dallasmsl]

Drew,
We are definitely agreed on all points. I think RP isn't being quiet as much as he is being QUIETED. Did you know that he was excluded from the Fox Debate for, quite literally, no reason? He is actually polling better than some of the other candidates who were on the stage but Fox is providing no excuse for their decision. It can only be summized that Fox is afraid of him.

There are two major reasons I like RP. He wants to bring back the troops from ALL over the world and that he wants to get the government out of my personal business. He wants to stop making criminals out of ordinary bodybuilders.

[Ursine Muscle]

I had a four paragraph response written before I decided that it is best not to hijack a thread. I simply ask you to realize that the political statements you make were basically given to you. The issues are not this simple. For example infant mortality rates are very complex issues that no one has an effective answer to at the moment. Don't be to righteous.

I'm not quite sure what "political statements" were "given to me". Given my background, I would be the first to agree that everything after Plato is a footnote, but I have a reputation for being both serious and rather..uh...boring. So I don't speak (nor type) lightly. If you can be specific, I would be more than happy to share my logic.

As for infant mortality rates, yes, such figures are multi-factorial. But when push comes to shove, my reading is that this is a public post and not the place for a diss on culture and neo-natal healthcare in the last quarter of the last century in the US.

The cause of babies dying is simple: access to health education and health care. It is not mastodon genetics. It is a simple cultural attitude which is not prevalent in the US currently.

E.g., the UK financed and just released a major study of government response to avian flu. The result is a doubling of stockpiles of anti-flu agents. The US is now holding hearings on steroid us in baseball.

There are 7 days in a week and 24 hours in day. My query is how they are being spent.

If this seems righteous, then so be it. It is one thing NOT to have resources, another to misdirect them because it is believed that sodomy causes earthquakes. US policies in health (and many other areas) are absurd.

[viamanmax]

This forum is not the place for this in my mind. Have a wonderful day.

[superman]

Wow! That mouse looks incredible!

[dallasmsl]

Originally Posted by superman

Wow! That mouse looks incredible!

I'm just wondering when the photos of those who are being used in the testing groups will be released.

[eiweiss]

The MYO29 experiment (Anti-myostatin-antibodies) has finished:

OBJECTIVE: Myostatin is an endogenous negative regulator of muscle growth and a novel target for muscle diseases. We conducted a safety trial of a neutralizing antibody to myostatin, MYO-029, in adult muscular dystrophies (Becker muscular dystrophy, facioscapulohumeral dystrophy, and limb-girdle muscular dystrophy). METHODS: This double-blind, placebo-controlled, multinational, randomized study included 116 subjects divided into sequential dose-escalation cohorts, each receiving MYO-029 or placebo (Cohort 1 at 1mg/kg; Cohort 2 at 3mg/kg; Cohort 3 at 10mg/kg; Cohort 4 at 30mg/kg). Safety and adverse events were assessed by reported signs and symptoms, as well as by physical examinations, laboratory results, echocardiograms, electrocardiograms, and in subjects with facioscapulohumeral dystrophy, funduscopic and audiometry examinations. Biological activity of MYO-029 was assessed through manual muscle testing, quantitative muscle testing, timed function tests, subject-reported outcomes, magnetic resonance imaging studies, dual-energy radiographic absorptiometry studies, and muscle biopsy. RESULTS: MYO-029 had good safety and tolerability with the exception of cutaneous hypersensitivity at the 10 and 30mg/kg doses. There were no improvements noted in exploratory end points of muscle strength or function, but the study was not powered to look for efficacy. Importantly, bioactivity of MYO-029 was supported by a trend in a limited number of subjects toward increased muscle size using dual-energy radiographic absorptiometry and muscle histology. INTERPRETATION: This trial supports the hypothesis that systemic administration of myostatin inhibitors provides an adequate safety margin for clinical studies. Further evaluation of more potent myostatin inhibitors for stimulating muscle growth in muscular dystrophy should be considered. Ann Neurol 2008.

[viamanmax]

I am glad you posted this. I have been excited about the results of this study.

The main issue will be finding the right type of docking agent as the specific monoclonal antibody used in this stage 1 and 2 test is quite conservative in design. Also, the dosages used are quite low compared to what would probably be tolerable in humans. I will be excited to see the results of the imminent studies with concentrations of similar concept drugs set significantly higher.

The major problem though will be for any company to do a study utilizing subjects who do not suffer from some kind of preexisting muscular dystrophy. The legal issues in that type of studies are not insignificant. This generally requires the invention of a new disease to target in order to receive FDA approval. This practice has become quite common in modern pharmaceutical research.

Say the inability for some people to effectively develop a significant new muscle mass in spite of regular exercise. With the right branding that will be the next major treatable disease. I can already see the commercials.

[eiweiss]

hm.. phlegmatic sarcopenia? I strongly doubt that, as the beneficial effects of bigger muscle mass involves many other pathways. Blocking the myostatin just removes the "growth limit" but it will not make growth itself. It will facilitate growth, that's for sure, but there have to be anabolic factors too. Consider myostatin an catabolic / cachexic factor. Then the balance works.

Although I like the idea behind this MYO-29 trial, I think it's application is still boresome. You need to reapply the antibody repeatedly. It can be done better....

[viamanmax]

2 things, one, it is generally more profitable to make a continual treatment that a permanent method and also it is much lower risk for a study or for large scale distribution. To use a retrovirus to insert the gene permanently into a person is highly risky as it cannot be turned off later. Since this is unlikely to be the final version of this kind of method, no one is going to take a permanent bet on one early stage trial.

Item 2, myostatin does not simply function as a growth limiter, it actually functions as a repair limiter. These are quite different in reality as instead of producing an upper limit of possible muscle production, the reduction of quantity instead raises the optimal set point of the system. This effect is due to the fact that myostatin is a component of a closed loop feedback system. In this case the effective set point is determined by the capacity for the feedback system to regulate the measured characteristic. In this case the repair of muscles becomes somewhat unregulated in the positive direction.

Note, for study coding it is known as MYO-029 and is produced by Cambridge Antibody under contract for Wyeth pharmaceuticals. If anyone is interested.

[eiweiss]

I never said that I'd favour a retrovirus, but it's still an interesting variant. There's a nice trial where the anti-myostatin effect has been joined with a tamoxifen-sensilbe switch. So you can switch it on and off with tamoxifen.
Nevertheless, siRNA-silencing or vaccination are very easy and proven methods. And I still think for a bodybuilder a continuous working anti-myostatin is a valuable asset. Since this mutation exists also in nature (double-muscled cattle, dogs and even men) with only little effects on lifespan I doubt that it will be really "dangerous" to have it work continuously.

Since growth and repair are tighly joined together when it comes to muscle, i prefer the term growth limiter.

[viamanmax]

If it is so valuable for a bodybuilder that is why they will keep paying for the applications. In addition people live much longer than cattle and such animals in comparison to our natural lifespan due to our ever increasing average lifespan yielding issues which are not of concern in animal cases.

Using a switching agent is not commonly favored due to the difficulty of guaranteeing its safety both separately and in conjunction with the introduced system. FDA approval of these type of things is far to costly to risk complicated protocols. Single stage drugs are often favored for these reasons. People take injections of insulin daily so there is no reason that they won't take an injection of this weekly or biweekly.

Also, the argument about cattle and dogs is not an argument or proof but instead an observation. Due to this, no one will stake any investment on it. The risk in drug development is just too high. For example a common drug on the market will cost 400 million dollars to bring all the way to production. Not including product introduction, physical production margin cost, inventory cost, or marketing.

Even hinting at its use for performance enhancement directly also is likely to trigger ever more government scrutiny. No drug company will risk that. God help the US congress of thinking of striving ahead.

[viamanmax]

Aparently I can no longer edit my posts?

I see you are in central europe. Too bad you will still suffer under the excessively large US investment and regulatory power in biotech's long reach. I will PM you a question.