What is being gay?

[niko777]

Originally Posted by lead guitarist

I apologize for coming to this thread late. But niko777, it has to be pointed out that everything in this paragraph is wrong! Humans do NOT like to play Russian roulette. If they did, thousands of people would die every day (at least in America, where millions own guns) from playing it. Only one planet in the whole universe had the right living conditions? How can you assert that? Billions of galaxies each having billions of stars mean billions and billions of planets that we know nothing about. How can we say that no other planet has the right conditions for life? And we appeared, and evolved, while other creatures didn't? ALL creatures evolved, from us to ants to fish to elephants. These "strange coincidences" that you speak of do not exist. NORMALCY exists. Homosexuality isn't rare; for some of us, it's NORMAL. Societal and religious pressure led to it being hidden, so it's easy to think it's rare, but it has been around forever and will continue to exist for as long as animals do.

In my case, I was sexually aware at a very early age, by which I mean for as long as I can remember. I was drawing pictures of bodybuilders and musclemen when I was five years old (very CRUDE pictures, of course - I'm not an artistic prodigy!) and getting erections looking at them. My parents were very good to me and I never felt neglected or unloved. I was born gay, and born with muscle-lust that led me to fantasize about musclemen and muscleboys very early in life, and to masturbate while doing so.

Niko, your casual rejection of research and evidence that contradict your theories is a bit puzzling. You sound like one of those people who think along these lines: "You're only 99% sure you're right, therefore there's a 1% chance you're wrong, therefore you're wrong and I'm right." I've read through this thread and it seems like a bunch of intelligent people are bashing their heads against a wall trying to get through to you. Listen to them!

Playing roulette russe does not only mean playing with a gun, as you seem to believe. (Actually, my image was pretty simple and clear...) It also means refusing to take responsibility. It was an image. When you play REAL roulette russe, even if you die, one may say it's not your fault or anybodie's fault, since it's a "game of chance", a game which relies on randomness. I was using this image to show you that even if you say that the loss of a roulette russe game (death) is random, you had to hold the gun and, therefore, are responsible for your own death. It just means that human tend (too often) to say that things just happened and that now they have to live with them, without wondering what part they or those close to them had in those "things" that happened. Not everything is about genes. Not everything is about randomness that we coward humans like so much. It's so easier to say that nothing's your fault. Oh, yes, we polluted the earth, but we recognize that because we see the effects of it in real life. I don't know your whole story, lead guitarist, but "My parents were very good to me and I never felt neglected or unloved" seems unrealistic and way too simplistic. I don't want to be mean, but your whole familial life can't be one line long. Anyways, yes, people here are intelligent, I don't doubt that fact, since I wouldn't answer to them. However, once again, it's not because a bunch of intelligent people and scientists say X is truth that I will believe X is truth.

[ilimzn]

Sure, there is a reason for everything. Just like there is a reason the sun rises or water flows from high to low ground. THis does not mean that when you believe you understand it, you truly do, and it especially does not mean that you need to meddle with it. It is a interestin academic discussion as to why gay peole exist, but you might as well discuss why people of different color exist. This is entirely different from finding a reason for it to be changed, and let me remind you, wars have started over this sort of thing. And usually when one looks back deep enough, the reasons can simply be explained by a BELIEF that it is WRONG. Interestingly enough, when this belief is removed, discussions tend to be much calmer, because there is no vested interest. In your case - and I admit it might be due to language (but I remind you, I am not a native English speaker!) - a lot in your tone suggests an approach to this question, from a belief that everyone was supposed to be str8 'but something happened'. In some cutures, this sort of belief would for instance result in only male children being born. In most, if it was conclusively proven being gay has a genetic background, and it could be meddled with, most if not all parents would opt for a 'correction'. IMHO this is wrong - because it implies an argument that being gay is wrong, and should be corrected, much in the same way as a congenital and possibly fatal dissease should be fixed. The overwhelming difference is, that a congenital dissease will kill its bearer, while someone who is gay may only be dead for his or her gayness by the hand of people who BELIEVE it is wrong, and futher, they have the RIGHT and OBLIGATION to correct it. Curiosuly, these tend to be the same people who say that gods ways are unfathomable, yet they will gladly doubt gods intention to create gay people amongs all things he created. My point, unroll your own argument all the way back to the beginning, and see if you can find some parallels. As soon as you figure that being gay is not wrong (i.e. in scientific terms, not an illness or condition, harmful or otherwise), the reason why people are so becomes very much academic.

[musqlure]

Originally Posted by niko777

This thread is getting interesting. I don't need to have scientific evidence to be right. I have a heart, I have instinct and, even if I may sound naive or simple to you, I'm intelligent. I don't need to feel backed up by dozens of "scientific" studies to say things I think are true. It's easy to bring up those studies saying that since those scientifics think X, X = truth. It's harder to try to understand things by yourself. It's harder to be categorized by people who hate being categorized because you just want to say what you think and hear what they have to say about it.

True, each human being is different, so each gay person is different. No need to be a genius to understand that. However, even if we all are different, we share some common mechanisms and react to situations, like lacks of something, agressions, happiness, etc. Up to this day, I have never met a gay man who hadn't been through some tough times with either his dad, his mom, or at school. Never. Attention: tough times doesn't necessarly mean being beaten up; it can make reference to a lack of attention, of love or of presence. That's why I come to this conclusion. Since everybody reacts differently to lacks, it's not surprise some begin feeling attraction to males. (I miss my dad, I want a male presence, I don't know how to be a man, I can be like mom, mom likes men, should I like men? All those questions may appear.)

Anyways, it's not a war we're having, it's a discussion. Ok?

LOL! This is one of your best posts so far. There aren't many people who'd freely admit that they are wholly uninterested in having any evidence to back up their assertions, but you've done so with what I can only describe as admirable candor. So you have no use for the results of rigorous scientific investigation into this topic, eh? What is this thread for, then? You've already made your mind up about what you believe. You've also admitted you aren't interested in evidence. You're perfectly comfortable with your predetermined conclusion. So why don't you just head for the kitchen and have yourself a beer?

The world is full of people who are sure that, even without any evidence, their predetermined conclusions about other groups of people are right. We call those people "bigots."

[niko777]

Originally Posted by musqlure

LOL! This is one of your best posts so far. There aren't many people who'd freely admit that they are wholly uninterested in having any evidence to back up their assertions, but you've done so with what I can only describe as admirable candor. So you have no use for the results of rigorous scientific investigation into this topic, eh? What is this thread for, then? You've already made your mind up about what you believe. You've also admitted you aren't interested in evidence. You're perfectly comfortable with your predetermined conclusion. So why don't you just head for the kitchen and have yourself a beer?

The world is full of people who are sure that, even without any evidence, their predetermined conclusions about other groups of people are right. We call those people "bigots."

I'm candid. So what? I'm not sure that predetermined conclusions about others are right, I think my conclusions have sense. You seem to like hiding behind the curtain of "rigorous scientific investigation", don't you? Good for you. You've already made your mind up about what you believe. You've also admitted you're only intersted in evidence. You're perfectly comfortable with your predetermined conclusion. We're not so different, after all.

Oh, and I don't drink beer. It's not because I'm straight that I have beer in my fridge. You meanie! Using stereotypes like that is just... wrong. Isn't it?

[Rarity]

Wow, a simple topic goes straight to hell because a bunch of idiots are taking things too seriously while not staying wholly on topic. The original poster asked "What is being gay?" whether it be trolling or not, the answer is pretty straight forward and doesn't require more than a few sentences to answer it. It'd be in everyone's best interest if the feuding party would just drop the subject and act like adults - or if need be, take it to the private messaging system. This side DOES have an 18 year or older age limit, right?

To put it simply: Being gay (homosexual is the politically correct term) is when one is attracted to his or her own sex, both mentally and physically.

[musqlure]

Originally Posted by niko777

I'm candid. So what? I'm not sure that predetermined conclusions about others are right, I think my conclusions have sense. You seem to like hiding behind the curtain of "rigorous scientific investigation", don't you? Good for you. You've already made your mind up about what you believe. You've also admitted you're only intersted in evidence. You're perfectly comfortable with your predetermined conclusion. We're not so different, after all.

Oh, and I don't drink beer. It's not because I'm straight that I have beer in my fridge. You meanie! Using stereotypes like that is just... wrong. Isn't it?

Um, you do realize that we gay guys drink beer, don't you?

By the way, being committed to a particular method of investigation (i.e., the scientific method) is entirely different from being committed to a particular conclusion about a given question. The former concerns how one discovers the answer; the latter is what one believes the answer is.

[Mdlftr]

...or thread, or rambling observations...or WHATEVER this is!

I have found that discussions may frequently get "off track" and become acrimonious when the original topic under discussion is either poorly understood, or not agreed upon by the participants. What happens is that each participant takes it upon him/herself to redefine the question, so that everyone's comments are either 100% correct (in the context of what they said) or 100% wrong, depending on the context of others.

In this case, the topic title, "What is being gay?" could mean a lot of things:
1. What is the scientific/biological definition of gay, meaning homosexuality?
2. What does the cultural creation of identifying oneself as "gay" in the 21st century world, mean to an individual?
3. What has the poster's personal life experience been?
4. What is right/wrong with the topic under discussion?
5. What does the current poster think about this topic?

It seems to me that ALL of the above topics have been covered during the course of this thread. I don't see any great conclusions being determined, because there is no agreement as to what the topic is that is under discussion. Many contributors are giving their opinions, and many other contributors are reacting to those opinions and giving their own opinions.

It's an interesting read. However, it's not far removed from the random observations seen on many Internet posts. This is in contrast to the thread on "Muscle fetishes" which seems to have more consensus as to what the question is under discussion.


Mdlftr

[arpeejay]

Assuming it hasn't been said already (and it should have been):

I'm frankly uninterested in what uneducated straight people have to say about gayness. It's like a gentile talking about what it is to be Jewish or a white guy talking about what it is to be black.

In other words, it just doesn't cut it.

R

[Mdlftr]

Originally Posted by arpeejay

Assuming it hasn't been said already (and it should have been):

I'm frankly uninterested in what uneducated straight people have to say about gayness. It's like a gentile talking about what it is to be Jewish or a white guy talking about what it is to be black.

In other words, it just doesn't cut it.


R

Rpj, Don't forget the perennial favorite:

"Some of my best friends ARE __________[fill in the blank], so that makes ME an expert!"

[niko777]

Originally Posted by arpeejay

Assuming it hasn't been said already (and it should have been):

I'm frankly uninterested in what uneducated straight people have to say about gayness. It's like a gentile talking about what it is to be Jewish or a white guy talking about what it is to be black.

In other words, it just doesn't cut it.

R

I didn't know I was uneducated. What you just wrote will certainly change my life. After all, the fact that I don't agree with people (in a scientific domain or not) just because what they say pleases me is certainly a proof of a lack of education. I will know my place, now that I'm aware of the fact that I'm uneducated and not fit to have opinions of my own.

But wait. If you can say I'm uneducated, it means you are educated, right? If you weren't, you would have said something like: "We are both uneducated when it comes to understanding different people". So, if I follow your logic, a white man can't talk about what it's like to be a black man, a man can't talk about what it's like to be a woman and... an educated person can't really understand the uneducated one... However, you seem to understand me perfectly, educated one. Does that mean that we both are educated, or... that we both are uneducated? My head feels dizzy. Too much thinking for my simple mind.

I have my opinions and I believe in them. You have your own and you believe in them too. That's all there is to it. Grow up, won't you?

[niko777]

Originally Posted by Mdlftr

Rpj, Don't forget the perennial favorite:

"Some of my best friends ARE __________[fill in the blank], so that makes ME an expert!"

Oh, and please, if you quote someone, quote that person in a correct manner. It's quite sad, otherwise.

[ilimzn]

And, just to be clear, what does it take for you to change your beliefs?

[arpeejay]

Originally Posted by niko777

I didn't know I was uneducated.

You are clearly uneducated with respect to the various theories regarding the origins of sexual orientation, the construction of gender identity, and the politics of protest, much less the reality of being a member of a sexual minority.

As such, you really have zip, zero, nada basis on which to rest your opinion, which, being an opinion, is pretty damned worthless with respect to the LIVED experience of gay men who frequent these precincts.

Not all opinions are equally valid. Yours, in this case, are offensive. The question: Why do you feel the need to offer derogatory, offensive opinions in a predominantly gay group?

The last, of course, is a rhetorical question. We've seen your type before and no doubt we will again.

R

[niko777]

Originally Posted by arpeejay

You are clearly uneducated with respect to the various theories regarding the origins of sexual orientation, the construction of gender identity, and the politics of protest, much less the reality of being a member of a sexual minority.

As such, you really have zip, zero, nada basis on which to rest your opinion, which, being an opinion, is pretty damned worthless with respect to the LIVED experience of gay men who frequent these precincts.

Not all opinions are equally valid. Yours, in this case, are offensive. The question: Why do you feel the need to offer derogatory, offensive opinions in a predominantly gay group?

The last, of course, is a rhetorical question. We've seen your type before and no doubt we will again.

R

Okay, okay, I get it. Me the straight mean and offensive guy, you the poor victim. Been there done that. I'm getting tired of this.

No opinion is worthless. You sound like those gay haters when you talk that way. They say you shouldn't exist and you say that I'm uneducated and that my opinions are "damned worthless". It's sad.

In no way have I ever been offensive when talking about my opinions. I asked questions, wrote about what I THINK is the truth and BAM! I'm offensive, mean and homophobic! Something is wrong with you people and it has nothing to do with your sexual orientation!

You asked me: "Why do you feel the need to offer derogatory, offensive opinions in a predominantly gay group?"

I answer: "Why do you feel the need to show the world who you really are in a predominantly straight group?"

You have your own reasons to do so and I have mine, even if I will never agree with you saying my opinions are derogatory and offensive. If someone has been offensive here, it's you. You say that a straight man can't understand a gay man, but I think I just felt what it is to be judged by people who don't know you because you don't agree with them. I won't call you heterophobic, since I'm the kind of guy who says offensive things, but you're close.
Sadly close.

[Mad Dog]

Originally Posted by niko777

I'm candid. So what? I'm not sure that predetermined conclusions about others are right, I think my conclusions have sense. You seem to like hiding behind the curtain of "rigorous scientific investigation", don't you? Good for you. You've already made your mind up about what you believe. You've also admitted you're only intersted in evidence. You're perfectly comfortable with your predetermined conclusion. We're not so different, after all.

I think the big difference is that scientists (and those who put stock in scientific findings) obviously form their opinions based on evidence, but that also means that they're open to having their opinions changed if the evidence changes. Are you saying you're as open to having your mind changed?

[Rarity]

:| Why isn't this thread locked yet?

[niko777]

Originally Posted by Click_Flash

:| Why isn't this thread locked yet?

The guy does not agree with the majority, so we should lock his thread? Oh, come on, people.

[niko777]

Originally Posted by Mad Dog

I think the big difference is that scientists (and those who put stock in scientific findings) obviously form their opinions based on evidence, but that also means that they're open to having their opinions changed if the evidence changes. Are you saying you're as open to having your mind changed?

Yes, if you show me that my conclusions are wrong without quoting scientific evidence as if it is absolute truth. Why don't you start by saying why YOU think my conclusions about homosexuality are wrong. That'll be a good start.

[FuzzyKB]

[COLOR="Orange"]
I am probably at age 57 one of the older members of this forum. I was alive and around for a great deal of the turmoil that has taken the community of initials to where they are now.

As such I have heard a great deal over the years which many of our younger members have fortunately missed out on.

As a member of the gay community myself, I started doing a great deal of study when I was in College. In my own family I am not the only one also having a male cousin (still in the closet and hiding) and a male second cousin who were and are members of this community.

There is little doubt that this is a genetic thing in that one of my friends was one of 4 children. This was composed of 2 males and 2 females. Of the 4 children by age 25 it was common knowledge that 3 of the 4 children were in fact of gay orientation.

A man I dated in my very distant past was one of 12 children and had been reared in the Twin Cities of Minnesota. Of the 12 children seven were of gay orientation and a Mother and Father ended up losing 4 of those seven gay children to the HIV virus.

- - - - -

Most of my experience is that understanding and acceptance of one's homosexuality is a process under which we learn by trial and error what works for us and what does not. It is a realization and acceptance process that takes time.

- - - - -

I remember a time when the common statement made by those of conservative viewpoints was that gay people "recruited" children.

I, to this very day, would like to know how one would sell that one!

The U.S. Military can say, join the Military, get educational benefits, see the world, learn a trade.

If we were to be able to "recruit" what would the selling points be? Join a group where a bunch of people are going to hate you simply because of who you are, lose numerous tax breaks given to people because of genetics, give up the right (in many states) to raise or adopt children, face job discrimination, face being attacked and beat up by teens incited by some "looney toons" religious nut job, and face the fact that Bible Thumpers will always consider you to be of unsound mind and unsound moral value simply because of your orientation.

We are who we are and the best thing we can do is to support each other and fight for the rights of those yet to come into this world with our unique genetic gifts.



[/COLOR]

[niko777]

Originally Posted by FuzzyKB

[COLOR="Orange"]
I am probably at age 57 one of the older members of this forum. I was alive and around for a great deal of the turmoil that has taken the community of initials to where they are now.

As such I have heard a great deal over the years which many of our younger members have fortunately missed out on.

As a member of the gay community myself, I started doing a great deal of study when I was in College. In my own family I am not the only one also having a male cousin (still in the closet and hiding) and a male second cousin who were and are members of this community.

There is little doubt that this is a genetic thing in that one of my friends was one of 4 children. This was composed of 2 males and 2 females. Of the 4 children by age 25 it was common knowledge that 3 of the 4 children were in fact of gay orientation.

A man I dated in my very distant past was one of 12 children and had been reared in the Twin Cities of Minnesota. Of the 12 children seven were of gay orientation and a Mother and Father ended up losing 4 of those seven gay children to the HIV virus.

- - - - -

Most of my experience is that understanding and acceptance of one's homosexuality is a process under which we learn by trial and error what works for us and what does not. It is a realization and acceptance process that takes time.

- - - - -

I remember a time when the common statement made by those of conservative viewpoints was that gay people "recruited" children.

I, to this very day, would like to know how one would sell that one!

The U.S. Military can say, join the Military, get educational benefits, see the world, learn a trade.

If we were to be able to "recruit" what would the selling points be? Join a group where a bunch of people are going to hate you simply because of who you are, lose numerous tax breaks given to people because of genetics, give up the right (in many states) to raise or adopt children, face job discrimination, face being attacked and beat up by teens incited by some "looney toons" religious nut job, and face the fact that Bible Thumpers will always consider you to be of unsound mind and unsound moral value simply because of your orientation.

We are who we are and the best thing we can do is to support each other and fight for the rights of those yet to come into this world with our unique genetic gifts.



[/COLOR]

Thanks for your comment, FuzzyKB, it's really intersting. I don't think gay people recruit children, it's a crazy idea! However, I remember well that every year, in highschool, a gay association called "Gris Montr?al" came in our school, in our classes and made a little conference about homosexuality. It was intersting, but what bugged me even at the time was that they were repeating and repeating that between 10 and 20% of the people were gay and that meant that about 5-6 people in the classroom were supposedly gay! As I wrote in another thread, I had doubts about my sexuality when I was in highschool, since I didn't feel attirance towards girls (or boys). Just hearing that there were probably 5-6 people in the classroom who were gay was enough to destabilize me. They weren't recruiting, but I understand why some people may think they were. When you are a teenager (or a child), you start constructing your identity. It's normal to have doubts, to feel things you have never felt before. If somebody comes and tell you that you may be part of the 10-20% of gay people, it destabilizes you a lot and MAY be a form of indirect and unvoluntary recruitement.

Yes, we are who we are and I'm not trying to change anybody. I'm just trying to understand why some are heterosexual and others are homosexual.

Thanks again

[tlee4000]

Niko, I recommend that you watch the show "The Making Of Me with John Barrowman". In the show, John searches for why he is gay. I think you might find it educational.

My personal belief is that everyone in conceived with a bisexual template (an equal chance of being attracted to either or both sexes) and during gestation different factors alters the chance more to one sex or the other. Societial pressures is normally what screws people up. Usually forcing them to suppress their natural desires to conform to the supposed majority or demonizing those that refuse to conform to "norm", those without a strong sense of self-worth and/or strong personality are thrown into a vicious circle of guilt and depression that unfortunately usually ends in suicide.

I AM a gay man, who was born into a loving family, and I was born this way. I never had a lack of either paternal or maternal influence. I was raised with love and discipline. Based upon MY persoanl experince, I find your stated beliefs to be flawed. I do not deny you your right to your beliefs, but I, in return, expect you not to deny me my right to mine.

[niko777]

Originally Posted by tlee4000

Niko, I recommend that you watch the show "The Making Of Me with John Barrowman". In the show, John searches for why he is gay. I think you might find it educational.

My personal belief is that everyone in conceived with a bisexual template (an equal chance of being attracted to either or both sexes) and during gestation different factors alters the chance more to one sex or the other. Societial pressures is normally what screws people up. Usually forcing them to suppress their natural desires to conform to the supposed majority or demonizing those that refuse to conform to "norm", those without a strong sense of self-worth and/or strong personality are thrown into a vicious circle of guilt and depression that unfortunately usually ends in suicide.

I AM a gay man, who was born into a loving family, and I was born this way. I never had a lack of either paternal or maternal influence. I was raised with love and discipline. Based upon MY persoanl experince, I find your stated beliefs to be flawed. I do not deny you your right to your beliefs, but I, in return, expect you not to deny me my right to mine.

Thanks for your comment tlee4000. It's also very intersting. I tend to see humans as complex beings, yes, but also as sexual beings. I don't think, however, that we are conceived with an equal chance of being attracted to either or both sexes. If you ask me, I think this part comes a bit later.

True enough, social pressures screw people up. I won't say the contrary, since I firmly believe it is the case. You know, I was reading an article, the other day, forgive me for not remembering the title, and the writer was saying that about 70% of the straight men will or have tried a "homosexual experience". That's a lot. If I follow the logic of this article, the majority of the men out there are not completely straight, right? Or at least, once in their life, they haven't been. And many of my gay friends (no, it's not because I have gay friends that I am a gay expert) have had sex with women several times. As we all know, you have to be excited to have sex, since a flaccid penis won't do much good to anybody! They liked it, but not enough to continue.

So, many straight men try homosexual sex experiences and many gay men try heterosexual experiences. That's strange, isn't it? Love and attraction has many faces.

Let's take the exemple of Bob. (He doesn't really exist. Ok, maybe he does.) Bob was raised in a loving family and never had a lack of anything. He was good at school when he was a kid and all the teachers liked him, saying they were proud of having him in their classes. When he started highschool, he saw all those kids saying they were drinking booze, smoking cigarettes and having sex. He had never really felt attraction towards girl nor boys, but he knew he liked muscles. He admired muscle men and wanted to be like them. Sometimes, he could spend hours drawing muscle men and imagining himself being that strong and big. Then, he started hearing about homosexuality (he had never heard of it before) and started wondering if he was gay, since he liked muscles and didn't really like girls like other boys did. For a time, he thought he was gay and people around him started thinking so too. He had to be gay, since he wasn't sexually attracted to girls, right? The other boys hated him, since he was not normal and the girls hated him, since he didn't want to go out with any of them. Bob even tried to commit suicide, once, but he failed and promised himself that he would never try to end his life ever again. (Nobody knows he tried to kill himself, by the way.) Bob had a very strong personality, but that's not enough to be happy when you feel like the world hates you. So, Bob had a great family, was good in everything he tried and lived what seemed to be a good life. However, Bob knew he was not normal and it made him suffer. After a few years and a lot of thinking, Bob came to the conclusion that he wasn't gay, since he never felt any sexual attraction towards men. He started dating girls and discovered that he had to feel respect and admiration for a woman in the first place in order to be excited by her. He discovered that love has nothing to do with sex and that sex does not dicate who you are.

I think the whole "gay" thing is just a normalization attempt of the society. If you don't like women, you are gay, which is weird. If you like women, your are normal, which is good. If you like both, you are even stranger that the gay ones, which is really bad. Lol. I'm not sure if we'll ever know for sure why some people are gay. I have my theories, some have theirs. However, what I know is that you don't have to let sex dicate the way you have to live your life. You are who you are and that's all there is to it. You don't have to listen to what society tells you. At least, that's what I think.

[Lucas88]

Originally Posted by niko777

Originally Posted by Mad Dog http://www.musclegrowth.org/forum/im...s/viewpost.gif
I think the big difference is that scientists (and those who put stock in scientific findings) obviously form their opinions based on evidence, but that also means that they're open to having their opinions changed if the evidence changes. Are you saying you're as open to having your mind changed?
Response by niko777
Yes, if you show me that my conclusions are wrong without quoting scientific evidence as if it is absolute truth. Why don't you start by saying why YOU think my conclusions about homosexuality are wrong. That'll be a good start.

I can't speak for other gay men on this site but, from someone who actually has life experience BEING a gay man and who has met and shared personal experiences and stories with THOUSANDS of gay men in my lifetime (both my personal life and as a counselor), how can YOU, niko777, possibly even HAVE a final conclusion about homosexuality based on your limited exposure to a few friends...that is, if you are educated and as intelligent as you assert yourself to be? You have a BELIEF that's based on your heart, your instinct and not much information at all in the scope of things.

Some clarification for you:

First, Mad Dog didn't quote "scientific evidence as if it is absolute truth." He said, "scientists...obviously form their OPINIONS based on evidence." To spell it out for you...they have formed their OPINIONS about homosexuality based on AVAILABLE evidence and data and, I can guarantee you, it's one hell of a lot more information than the information to which you have access, i.e., a few gay friends who might not have opened up quite as much as you think they did considering what your posts show about your ability to be open-minded.

Second, he said, "they are OPEN to having their OPINIONS CHANGED if evidence CHANGES." To spell it out, as more evidence becomes AVAILABLE, scientists regularly reevaluate their OPINIONS. Hell, even the scientists don't agree 100% on everything because of how the data is interpreted, so how can you possibly KNOW what being gay is. You have made very clear in your posts that you are NOT open to new evidence, information or opinions and you seem to think that you are the ONLY person to have a heart and instincts so you MUST be right in your conclusions. Guess what...we all have hearts and instincts...some of us are just more open to ALL the evidence that's available to us and don't pick and choose what fits preconceived conclusions.

I apologize if this post comes across as hostile but you asked a question and then displayed nothing but close-minded arrogance and condescension to anyone that chose to respond in a way that didn't fit your conclusion. You may think you were just being "factual" or whatever...however, that would actually require you to HAVE some facts and not just second-hand and likely incomplete stories from a few friends. Your posts have been agrumentative and dismissive of other's opinions and/or contributions to this thread. If you've already made up your mind and have no interest in actually hearing what other's have to say, why ask the question in the first place?

I don't take issue with you personally and I won't lose sleep feeling "insulted" by your words because that's all they are...words. While you absolutely have a right to your OPINIONS and BELIEFS, so does everyone else on this site and several have expressed them in good faith.

Here is mine:

Homosexuality is a result of a combination of genetic predisposition AND biological occurances during pregnancy. How a person's sexual orientation is expressed in life depends on both where the person's brain function lies along the scale between heterosexuality and homosexuality AND environmental/nurture conditions during childhood...how we express our sexuality is the only choice we have in the matter.

If that doesn't work for you, then we'll just have agree to disagree. We're ALL entitled to our own beliefs and opinions. I'm open to other opinions as long as I'm afforded the same courtesy.

[niko777]

Originally Posted by Lucas88

I can't speak for other gay men on this site but, from someone who actually has life experience BEING a gay man and who has met and shared personal experiences and stories with THOUSANDS of gay men in my lifetime (both my personal life and as a counselor), how can YOU, niko777, possibly even HAVE a final conclusion about homosexuality based on your limited exposure to a few friends...that is, if you are educated and as intelligent as you assert yourself to be? You have a BELIEF that's based on your heart, your instinct and not much information at all in the scope of things.

Some clarification for you:

First, Mad Dog didn't quote "scientific evidence as if it is absolute truth." He said, "scientists...obviously form their OPINIONS based on evidence." To spell it out for you...they have formed their OPINIONS about homosexuality based on AVAILABLE evidence and data and, I can guarantee you, it's one hell of a lot more information than the information to which you have access, i.e., a few gay friends who might not have opened up quite as much as you think they did considering what your posts show about your ability to be open-minded.

Second, he said, "they are OPEN to having their OPINIONS CHANGED if evidence CHANGES." To spell it out, as more evidence becomes AVAILABLE, scientists regularly reevaluate their OPINIONS. Hell, even the scientists don't agree 100% on everything because of how the data is interpreted, so how can you possibly KNOW what being gay is. You have made very clear in your posts that you are NOT open to new evidence, information or opinions and you seem to think that you are the ONLY person to have a heart and instincts so you MUST be right in your conclusions. Guess what...we all have hearts and instincts...some of us are just more open to ALL the evidence that's available to us and don't pick and choose what fits preconceived conclusions.

I apologize if this post comes across as hostile but you asked a question and then displayed nothing but close-minded arrogance and condescension to anyone that chose to respond in a way that didn't fit your conclusion. You may think you were just being "factual" or whatever...however, that would actually require you to HAVE some facts and not just second-hand and likely incomplete stories from a few friends. Your posts have been agrumentative and dismissive of other's opinions and/or contributions to this thread. If you've already made up your mind and have no interest in actually hearing what other's have to say, why ask the question in the first place?

I don't take issue with you personally and I won't lose sleep feeling "insulted" by your words because that's all they are...words. While you absolutely have a right to your OPINIONS and BELIEFS, so does everyone else on this site and several have expressed them in good faith.

Here is mine:

Homosexuality is a result of a combination of genetic predisposition AND biological occurances during pregnancy. How a person's sexual orientation is expressed in life depends on both where the person's brain function lies along the scale between heterosexuality and homosexuality AND environmental/nurture conditions during childhood...how we express our sexuality is the only choice we have in the matter.

If that doesn't work for you, then we'll just have agree to disagree. We're ALL entitled to our own beliefs and opinions.

Sorry if I sounded harsh, mean, arrogant or whatever. As I wrote, I have my opinions, other have theirs and I was exposing mine in this thread. That's all. What bugs me is that what I think is true has no value since I'm not a scientific with 40,000 diplomas who has made several studies about the question.

Anyways, I wont lose my sleep over this either. That's a discussion and not a question of life or death to be right.

[anpuZA]

Since we're all into the whole explanation thing here, *somebody* PLEASE explain this for me... http://www.gayforit.com/video/106341/frat-boy-strips

[Mdlftr]

Originally Posted by anpuZA

Since we're all into the whole explanation thing here, *somebody* PLEASE explain this for me... http://www.gayforit.com/video/106341/frat-boy-strips

Whoah. See this type of stuff is what pushes people's buttons.[In ways that cover the spectrum from "ewww to ahhh".] My reaction, as a heterosexual man is that these are gay models selling a video. The only "straight" thing here is the stripper pole that the seated guy is leaning against.

I don't want to see this stuff, and I don't have to watch it. What people do behind closed doors is their own business, as the U.S. Supreme Court has repeatedly stated.

Mdlftr

[niko777]

Lol. What's the point of posting the link of this video? I don't understand your reasons... Please explain me.

[The_Pecman]

Originally Posted by tlee4000

My personal belief is that everyone in conceived with a bisexual template (an equal chance of being attracted to either or both sexes) and during gestation different factors alters the chance more to one sex or the other. Societial pressures is normally what screws people up.

I think it's more than that. I think it's physiology -- a genetic roll of the dice -- plus environment. I'm gay, but neither my sister (4 years younger) nor my brother (12 years younger) are.

I always knew I was different, even as early as 5 or 6. But I always acted in a very macho way and generally recoiled from effeminate boys while growing up. (Ironically, several of those dated girls and were very popular.)

But I can recall being transfixed by the sight of teenaged boys with muscle, particularly when I was an adolescent on the swim team. I was such a bookish geek, it took me many years to eventually get involved in weightlifting, but I did and found I enjoyed the discipline and the stimulation. I never quite became the ideal I wanted, but I was able to push my body much further than my genetics intended.

I do subscribe to the belief than probably 75% of most people have the potential to be "circumstantially gay" -- like in a desert island or end-of-the-world scenario. The 25% that remain are people too hung up get over preconceived notions and dogma.

[ilimzn]

Originally Posted by The_Pecman

I do subscribe to the belief than probably 75% of most people have the potential to be "circumstantially gay" -- like in a desert island or end-of-the-world scenario. The 25% that remain are people too hung up get over preconceived notions and dogma.

I would not put that very far from the truth - simply because, the very first person you get to have a sexual relationship with (and I'm saying it in a broader sense here), is yourself. And that relationship is by definition homosexual... I would even go as far as to put up a theory this is where the root of homosexuality lies - especially in men. In an evolutionary sense, procreation is competition, and there has to be a mechanism in place that enables one to size-up one's opponents. Further, the purpose of this mechanism is to see if one can gain some sort of advantage by recognizing desirable and undesirable traits (just go back in time to puberty and adolescence and see how friends, and further, role models come to be, as well as how they are emulated - before one hopefully learns to recognize qualities of one's own). All of this requires a mechanism that evaluates the very characteristics that define gender, and that includes sexual characteristics.