a simple question

[hulkoutlvr]

No big introduction, just a question, open to everyone on the board, big or small, who has ever had a question about his own masculinity. What do you think makes someone a 'real man'?

[CelticMuscle]

Originally Posted by hulkoutlvr

No big introduction, just a question, open to everyone on the board, big or small, who has ever had a question about his own masculinity. What do you think makes someone a 'real man'?

Well, this opens up a complete can of worms. You could have answers ranging from He-Man (a man who just exudes muscles and strength) to Aramis (someone in touch with his feelings)

[hulkoutlvr]

OK, perhaps it's not as simple a question as I originally thought. I'm just wondering because there seems to be a very polarizing topic in the gay community, and that is "what makes a real man". There's a lot of problems with more masculine gays hating on less masculine gays (I hate the term "femme"), and I (falling somehwere in the middle) have been caught between both groups. I'm not really attracted to any particular type (unless you count my attraction to huge, bulging, hairy chested and incredibly strong muscle men), but I would feel more comfortable if I could be accepted by the masculines. I'm considering trying to re-invent myself (I'm currently a nerdy, quiet, playwright type who watches old movies, enjoys good wine and listens to records) to blend in more with "the big boys", but I'm wondering if that's possible.

[ActionBastard]

I always felt like "real men" were confident in themselves, whether that was real butch or real soft, and not really concerned with where they ranked on other people's charts.

Most people, male or female, gay or straight, haven't reached the level yet where they can define themselves without someone or something else. Straight is right, gay is wrong. Masculine is right feminine is wrong. Chevrolet is right, Honda is wrong.

No matter what form it takes or what the justification is behind it, it's always people being insecure and it's always bullshit.

[Lucas88]

Originally Posted by ActionBastard

I always felt like "real men" were confident in themselves, whether that was real butch or real soft, and not really concerned with where they ranked on other people's charts.

Most people, male or female, gay or straight, haven't reached the level yet where they can define themselves without someone or something else. Straight is right, gay is wrong. Masculine is right feminine is wrong. Chevrolet is right, Honda is wrong.

No matter what form it takes or what the justification is behind it, it's always people being insecure and it's always bullshit.

There's a lot of truth in what ActionBastard wrote here. Self-confidence is one of the most attractive things about a "real-man". You will never gain self-confidence by trying to please other people and ignoring who you are. One hard truth is that you will NEVER please everyone...there will always be someone out there who just doesn't get you, nor do they want to, and if you're forcing some kind of behavior that's not really you to begin with, that rejection just works against you by undermining your confidence.

But...if you like who you are and what you do AND put yourself "out there" (i.e., don't hide in a cave or under a rock but really get out in the world where people will see you and who you are), that will attract people with similar interests and things in common with you (some of them may even be "huge, bulging, hairy chested and incredibly strong muscle men"). The one key to this is to understand who you are is not an end result...people are ALWAYS evolving and changing and hopefully growing. Don't pigeon hole yourself by deciding "THIS is who I am." It might not be who you are tomorrow, next month, or next year. It sounds cliche but, focus on the process and the "journey" as much as the goal because life has a funny way of blowing our plans and goals out of the water. In the end, you might be surprised where you end up and who you end up with.

[Aielyn]

Originally Posted by hulkoutlvr

What do you think makes someone a 'real man'?

The presence of male genitalia, and having been born with that set (as opposed to transgendered males).

I find it sad that some men feel they need to hook something more to it, to make themselves feel more (or in some cases, less) "manly".

[Mdlftr]

The whole 'real man' discussion, with the term in quotes, is the kind of discussion guys have over a drink. It's fun and lets guys reveal things about themselves that they would otherwise not do.

FWIW, I think a 'real man' that other men admire, is competent at whatever he does, whether it's choosing a wine, lifting weights, hitting a ball or calculating a sum. He's also confident in himself and secure enough that he can be friendly or supportive or teasing or competitive with others, without getting freaked out about whether he's not being "manly" enough!

"Over here, dude!"

Mdlftr

[hulkoutlvr]

So, in your opinion, even if what a man is competent at is something not traditionally considered manly, i.e., writing, cooking, crafting, training handicapped animals, etc., he can still be seen as 'a real man'?

I am struggling a bit right now with trying to define, or rather re-define my masculinity. Unfortunately, society tends to place a greater value on one's masculinity if you have the physical stature to go with it. Because I'm 5'3 1/2 on a good day, people often talk to me a though I'm still a child, which I haven't been for over 25 years. I've never been a football or basketball player, or any of the things that often earns you the title of 'real man' in our society. Now, at 37, I'm trying to re-examine my masculinity and try to determine if there's anything I can do to help myself feel a bit more worthy of the term. Mdlftr, I appreciate what you have to say.

[sparkymcsparks]

In terms of confidence in what you do, that is a very attractive quality in women as well, not to mention children can be confident in who they are. That doesn't make confident women and children 'manly'. I too have struggled with what it means to be a real man, and while my definition has included muscular and hairy, I've known many guys I would call real men that don't have those qualities. It's a tough thing to determine, and alot I think has to do with your father figure growing up.

I myself am called manly by everyone I know, (some of my nicknames are Manimal, captain Canada, and gaston) being 6 feet 2 inches, 215 pounds with a thick beard and full chest of hair, but I often feel like I'm still not a man, just a boy pretending.

[hulkoutlvr]

Society places a lot of expectations on what it means to be 'a real man' so that when we fall short, it's a bit hard to process. Sparkymcsparks, you've defintely got the physical aspects. That has to at least make it a little easier.

Originally Posted by sparkymcsparks

In terms of confidence in what you do, that is a very attractive quality in women as well, not to mention children can be confident in who they are. That doesn't make confident women and children 'manly'. I too have struggled with what it means to be a real man, and while my definition has included muscular and hairy, I've known many guys I would call real men that don't have those qualities. It's a tough thing to determine, and alot I think has to do with your father figure growing up.

I myself am called manly by everyone I know, (some of my nicknames are Manimal, captain Canada, and gaston) being 6 feet 2 inches, 215 pounds with a thick beard and full chest of hair, but I often feel like I'm still not a man, just a boy pretending.

[Mdlftr]

Originally Posted by hulkoutlvr

So, in your opinion, even if what a man is competent at is something not traditionally considered manly, i.e., writing, cooking, crafting, training handicapped animals, etc., he can still be seen as 'a real man'?

.

Absolutely! Look at some of these exemplars of accomplished men:

Writing: John Grisham (mega best seller)
cooking: Paul Boscose (world renowned French chief)
crafting: Rosey (Roosefelt) Grier, Linebacker and noted needle pointer
Training handicapped animals: The guy who wrote about "the horse whisperer"; dog trainers, etc.

All 'real men'!

The question is really what do YOU and sparkymcsparks think a "real man" should be? He is 6 feet 2 inches, 215 pounds with a thick beard and full chest of hair, but "I often feel like I'm still not a man, just a boy pretending."

Well, guess what: everyone feels "inadequate" or "not quite up to snuff" at sometime or another. I'm 6'3", 205" and have a full beard and chest hair. No body calls ME "Manimal". Does that make me LESS masculine? A large part of all of this has to do with self identity. You are what you are (how profound!) You may not or may meet the currently fashionable societal ideal of "masculinity" but that doesn't define who you ARE.

For example, late 19th century society valued the tall, lean, pale male build because it looked like what aristocrats (who didn't have to work) looked like. Men who were tanned, muscular, "rugged" were looked DOWN upon because they obviously worked with their hands and had no money. 100 years later, the desireable ideal is reversed.

For more on this topic, look for the book "Muscle Boys" by Eric Alvarez. I'm reading it now. It is a fascinating look at the development of the muscular male "ideal" over the last century and how (according to the author) it has been heavily shaped by gay men and gay sensibilities. As a straight man, my reaction to the last statement is "Well,....MAYBE." It's still an interesting read, nevertheless.

My 40 cents' worth,

Mdlftr

[Aielyn]

Originally Posted by hulkoutlvr

Society places a lot of expectations on what it means to be 'a real man' so that when we fall short, it's a bit hard to process. Sparkymcsparks, you've defintely got the physical aspects. That has to at least make it a little easier.

People react subconsciously to subconscious behaviours that you, yourself, exhibit. If you feel that you're less than a "real man", that's how people will treat you, because it's how you will hold yourself.

Understand, though, that trying to *act like* a real man will only make things worse. It is children who most try to act "grown up". Teens will often rebel, in order to feel more "adult". Then, once you actually mature, you start to realise just how childish your behaviour really was, when you thought you were being "mature". It's exactly the same with masculinity (and femininity, for that matter).

So long as you think of yourself as less than masculine, and either accept it or try to compensate for your feelings of inadequacy, people will think of you as less than masculine. The subtle cues arising from your subconscious behaviour will be more telling to them than anything else.

In essence, look within yourself. Realise that your masculinity is your own, not a standard of society. Be comfortable within yourself. The rest will come naturally.

[Yachirobi]

You know who I think is a great example of a real man? Tim Gunn.

Yes, the guy from Project Runway. I know it sounds crazy but he is one of the finest examples of a real man today. It's all about his presence. He is commanding without being a bully. He is confident without being a jerk. He is strong and intelligent and funny and warm and honest. He is a man on his own terms, never overly butch but never so feminine that he comes across like a character. He's so sure of who he is that those labels don't even matter to him, much less do they apply. Tim Gunn makes me feel better about being a gay man and he makes me feel great about being a man altogether.