being worshipped

[ethernet_jock]

Originally Posted by Corwin

Trust me, sexual counsellors and investigators would not classify that as heterosexual.

and we ALL know that sexual COUNSELLORS are just the end-all be-all of experts in everything.

really...

who the fuck cares? It's just Corwin looking for something to be a self-righteous asshole about again... and I've had about enough of it. He's building his own soap-box in a thread that has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with this discussion and I get more disgusted every time I read another bickering bitchy response from him.

This kind of thing REALLY detracts from this entire forum and I think it's time something is done about it.

I'm starting to understand why people have left this place.

[ethernet_jock]

furthermore... Corwin, I love how you continue to state a matter of personal opinion as utter fact... and that anyone who disagrees with your OPINION is rightly completely intended to insult you.

What a prick, how did you ever make it in the real world?

[Corwin]

Originally Posted by ethernet_jock

furthermore... Corwin, I love how you continue to state a matter of personal opinion as utter fact...

Facts:
Muscle worship that is erotic is frottage
frottage is sexual
frottage between members of the same sex is homosexual in nature
sexual orientation identity and sexual orientation are not the same thing
engaging in homoerotic activity is used to classify a person's sexual orientation as being gay/bisexual.
a person who identifies as straight but engages in homoerotic activity does not have a sexual orientation of heterosexual

None of this is opinion.

Originally Posted by ethernet_jock

and that anyone who disagrees with your OPINION is rightly completely intended to insult you.

What a prick, how did you ever make it in the real world?

I'm sorry that I seem to be challenging the world view of the philanderer who likes to wrestle with boys, but I see no reason to facilitate your enabling of each others lies.

Oh, am I being a prick. Perhaps if you tried leading an honest life, I'd have more respect for your stupidity.

[Corwin]

Originally Posted by ethernet_jock

and we ALL know that sexual COUNSELLORS are just the end-all be-all of experts in everything.

really...

who the fuck cares? It's just Corwin looking for something to be a self-righteous asshole about again... and I've had about enough of it. He's building his own soap-box in a thread that has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with this discussion and I get more disgusted every time I read another bickering bitchy response from him.

This kind of thing REALLY detracts from this entire forum and I think it's time something is done about it.

I'm sure you want to serve as a role model to the cohort of how one can marry a woman yet still engage in benign homoerotic behaviors, but I see no reason why I have to approve of it. Deal.

Originally Posted by ethernet_jock

I'm starting to understand why people have left this place.

Gee, and I thought the gay guys were leaving because they were sick of seeing closet-cases enabling each others sexual repression. Who knew?

[Marco_ukmus]

Originally Posted by Corwin

Gay men do have families. To assume that the only way to have a family is to be straight is offensive.

Ah ha! There we have it, To assume you said... I assumed NOTHING. I said i want a family and a lot of us do, like you say, irrespective of sexual orientation. I never said one had to be straight to have a family did i... So You see, you do jump to conclusions, i've just highlighted it again! I think i am going to have to double the length of my posts, sorry all, so that i can clearly remove all ambiguity from any post i ever make in the future, mind you, i'm sure you will still find something to accuse me of Corwin.

Originally Posted by Corwin

As for the appropriateness of your flaunting, er I mean reiterating, your sexual identity, it seems you do it when you post about your homoerotic encounters and fantasies. Who exactly are you reiterating if for?

I am reiterating it for all those people out there, like you, that might assume i am gay when i am not. Clearly it is required as you have highlighted.

Originally Posted by Corwin

Oh, this is intentional. As I said, I find it offensive.

It would appear you find everything offensive! Did you have no thought to think that i might find being labelled gay offensive??? oh sorry, i forgot, you have no consideration for anyone apart from yourself... silly me...

Originally Posted by Corwin

you are the one talking about the erotic nature of your muscle worshipping encounters.

Well, firstly, clay asked, and knowing that you guys wanna hear, i posted, if you dont like it, dont read it. Anyway, yes, i did obviously post about the erotic nature of it, and it is cool. But im still straight, can it not be erotic and non sexual at the same time (posibly should replace the word erotic, but still)? you making it out that it can't be...

Originally Posted by Corwin

a person who identifies as straight but engages in homoerotic activity does not have a sexual orientation of heterosexual

Well, I think we sould agree to disagree and leave it at that.

Originally Posted by Corwin

but I see no reason to facilitate your enabling of each others lies.

Most people work by the term "live and let live", and most ordinary people will have concluded that there is little point wasting time and energy flaming in a thread (such as this one). However, you seem to be on a mission to tell people how they should live and what they are.

These types of flaming and continually pissing people off here says more about your personality than anything else.

Originally Posted by Corwin

Perhaps if you tried leading an honest life, I'd have more respect for your stupidity.

Do you honestly think Ether or I or anyone else cares if you respect me or not... I dont thats for sure. Like i say, you can think what you like. I am meeting UKBeefy on Sunday and im sure he will confirm what my personality is like and which side of the field i bat for. I dont care in the least what you think of me, and I'm sure Ether does'nt, so, like i said last time we wrote a noval, what is the point of this? and what exactly are you going to achieve? Because I can assure you, I am not going to change as a result of ANYTHING you say, so why bother... In less your jealious or there is some other hidden thing to this that somewho spurs you on... in which case, your the one in need of a councillor...

Corwin, mate (lucid term here), give it rest! Your like a dog with a bone...

Marc

[glammaman2000]

Originally Posted by Corwin

They aren't straight. They are self-identifying as straight. There is a difference between actual orientation and how people identify. And while I believe straight guys can check out other guy's progress, I doubt they use words like "erotic" (oh, and btw, the word is homo-erotic), "feels natural" or that they feel guilt about doing it.

I know that there is this little support group of self-identified straight guys who get off on hypermasculinity, but please understand that many of us that are comfortable with our sexuality find this self-denial offensive and counter-productive.

And many of us that are comfortable with our sexuality DON'T!Nothing wrong with searching.There's all kinds of gay people;all kinds of straight people,too.As I've said before;our straight&bi members make an important contribution.I don't doubt that this will always be a primarily gay site(huzzah!)I am VERY tired,however,of anyone trying to pass off bad manners as,"telling it like it is".Give it a rest,or I'll have to go all Michel Foulcault on your ass.g.

[rp28nct]

Read in good health...

Guys, I was gone for a few days and look what sprang up! It's been an interesting tennis match of sorts, and although I do not agree with all of the comments, assertions, inferrences, etc. that have been made on both sides, there is, nonetheless some truth discussed. The truth is never nice and pretty. It always brings turmoil and offense.

Corwin is correct in the fact that our actions can speak volumes about our inner selves, but Marc is correct in that it doesn't work in reverse; One's actions do not define who that person is, otherwise all sorts of stereotypes would be true. My house is tidy and neat, ergo I must be gay, right? (Note: that is an extreme example and I am only quoting it to get my point across).

As a follower of Christ (and I will probably get flamed for mentioning my faith, again), my choices either lead me closer to Christ or they lead me away, and choices are what we are talking about (i.e. to be worshipped by a guy or not, to be intimate with a guy or not, to be intimate with a girl or not). None of us makes the right choices 100% of the time, but I think Corwin is reacting to the fact that we are hypocrites. We say one thing and our actions make us liars. Granted that is from his point of view, but it doesn't make his comments any less true.

No one can tell who we are by our actions alone, although if there is an inconsistency between what we say and do, it can be even more telling about our character.

I am straight because I choose to be straight. I am attracted to muscle, enjoying building my body, and enjoy the attention that I receive from both men and women. I am attracted to women and have faith that I will one day marry and have children. This does not make me perfect... it simply means that I am making a choice.

In my experiences, I have been aroused by stories, chat roleplay, by muscle worship, but I have also not been aroused by the very same things. As I have dated women, I have had the same reactions. So, does that mean that I am bisexual? The simple answer is no, and that is based on a choice made through faith. I know that it sounds contradictory and that I am in denial, but no matter how loud someone shouts at me and says that my actions tell that I am gay or bisexual or straight, they cannot know the full depth of me to base that statement on. It is an observation made, sometimes, on flawed logic. In the realm of emotions and human choices A + B does not always equal C.

Ok, does anyone remember the original point of this thread?.... Oh yeah! Getting "admired" is an amazing experience, and I have not regretted those choices.

Russ

P.S. Thanks for the tip of the hat, Marc. I never mind having other people drop my name.

[growinmuscl]

look forward to experiencing both sides more and more in the future

[claygrant]

I was excited to read all the new posts on this thread but now I'm disappointed. It pains me to see so much anger and hate on here. I'd rather not see public insults on a thread about a fun topic. This message board is the only one that I regularly post on, and I truly like the people here.

Let's stay on topic, please?

[njchris]

Oh well, This started out a good thread.

[ashleydelfin]

I'd rather not see public insults on a thread about a fun topic

And such fun muscle worshipping can be. =^^=

Gay? Straight? =P Whatever, I think you have relationships or fall in love depending on what you need and want at a certain point in life. Might be a man, might be a woman, the important thing is that it is the RIGHT person. Some people just are pickier than others (like me, for instance, I would never consider girls... they're nice and all.. but... no...)

And we could debate for AGES, so instead I will say something on-topic.

I'm thin, and I'm not interested in getting big, but I really like muscle. I've only had two real worship (or maybe I should say, admiration) sessions with the same guy, and now I'm so far away from him. But I admit now I'm eager to see him again to see (and feel =^^=) how much he's grown. Some of you know just how good it feels to finally know how it feels. To me, that experience was unforgettable.

And lately I've gotten more guys to show off. Since, like I said, I'm thin, I just start talking about gym routines and stuff and then, if the guy looks like he isn't completely annoyed by me, I go all like "just look at my arm compared with yours!" and most of the time this gets the other guy to flex. A few times they offer me to touch before I even ask.

Sadly, I haven't met any guys who are into this thing... I mean, I've had some online experiences.. but it just doesn't compare.

So, to all of you guys who like to be worshipped, thanks! Your work is greatly appreciated.

~Ashley

[Marco_ukmus]

Originally Posted by ashleydelfin

Sadly, I haven't met any guys who are into this thing... I mean, I've had some online experiences.. but it just doesn't compare.

So, to all of you guys who like to be worshipped, thanks! Your work is greatly appreciated.

~Ashley

Firstly, thankyou for bringing this thread back on topic. Lets just forget the flaming happened and move on. It does not achieve anything

Well, you will do mate, just give it time. Not every guy is into it, but i'm sure you will find some guys soon enough, otherewise, try looking up that guy you were talking about and see how he is. Like you say, if hes into Body building seriously, he's no doubt stacked some more muscle by now.

Good luck!

Marc

[beachmuscle]

marc ,,,,

how about a sponsor , growth encourager and growing musclehead who likes to worship all wrapped up into one ?

[Corwin]

Originally Posted by Marco_ukmus

Ah ha! There we have it, To assume you said... I assumed NOTHING. I said i want a family and a lot of us do, like you say, irrespective of sexual orientation. I never said one had to be straight to have a family did i...

You said: "Frankly, I want to have a family one day, and i know i am straight." The clear implication here is that to have a family, one has to be straight. Why bring up your desire for a family in the context of your sexual orientation identity if you were not relating the two?

Originally Posted by Marco_ukmus

I am reiterating it for all those people out there, like you, that might assume i am gay when i am not. Clearly it is required as you have highlighted.

And, once again, there is a difference between identity and orientation. You can call yourself whatever you want. Sexual orientation is NOT a choice, identity is. People lie to themselves all the time. People also hurt other people with their lies. That's not that hard to understand.

Originally Posted by Marco_ukmus

It would appear you find everything offensive!

Hardly.

Originally Posted by Marco_ukmus

Did you have no thought to think that i might find being labelled gay offensive???

First, I've never labelled you anything. I've said that male-on-male frottage is a homosexual sex act.

Second, why should being called gay be offensive? Is there something wrong with being gay? People assume I am straight all the time. That's not offensive to me. Why should the opposite be true of you.

You have said you find same-sex muscle worship erotic. Guess what -- that's a homosexual sex act. I'm pretty sure I haven't said that makes anyone gay or bisexual (though it certainly makes them not straight) -- but pointing out the homoeroticism of this behavior seems to really set some people off. Hmmmm....

Originally Posted by Marco_ukmus

Anyway, yes, i did obviously post about the erotic nature of it, and it is cool. But im still straight,

No -- you still call yourself straight. There is a difference between actual orientation and identity.

Originally Posted by Marco_ukmus

can it not be erotic and non sexual at the same time (posibly should replace the word erotic, but still)? you making it out that it can't be...

erotic: of, devoted to, or tending to arouse sexual love or desire

so, no, it can't.

Originally Posted by Marco_ukmus

Well, I think we sould agree to disagree and leave it at that.



Most people work by the term "live and let live", and most ordinary people will have concluded that there is little point wasting time and energy flaming in a thread (such as this one). However, you seem to be on a mission to tell people how they should live and what they are.

This is a public forum. You are posting about your behaviors and using labels. Commenting on such things, whether perceived rude or not, is appropriate. I've already explained why I find both the closet and some people's need to enable that closet offensive. I certainly understand that those people who are deeply in denial will react viscerally. If it is that upsetting to you, perhaps you need to look at why what you are saying is problemattic.

Originally Posted by Marco_ukmus

These types of flaming and continually pissing people off here says more about your personality than anything else.



Do you honestly think Ether or I or anyone else cares if you respect me or not...

Actually, I don't mind you. I think you need to write a bit better, and are sexually confused, but I don't not respect you. Ether on the other hand...

[Corwin]

Originally Posted by rp28nct

As a follower of Christ (and I will probably get flamed for mentioning my faith, again), my choices either lead me closer to Christ or they lead me away, and choices are what we are talking about (i.e. to be worshipped by a guy or not, to be intimate with a guy or not, to be intimate with a girl or not).

Actually, Russ, I would never flame you for your religious choices. Such things are deeply personal.

I would flame you for believing that sexual orientation is a choice. As this article articulates, it is not. It is inate. It is immutable. And it is not a choice.

People are highly adaptable. We can live in outter space. We can live lies. Denying your G-d-given sexual orientation may be some people's choice, but in the end, they only end up hurting themselves and others.

[Malack101]

I must be living in the wrong area. Where are all bodybuilders looking to be worshipped in Orlando

[optimusx]

Originally Posted by Malack101

I must be living in the wrong area. Where are all bodybuilders looking to be worshipped in Orlando

They were all in Tampa for the NPC competition this past week .... see bodybuilders are a migrant species, traveling from one meet to the next, seeking procards and insider tips. They tend to travel in small groups, usually associating by weight class. For more information see your local Bodybuilder Wildlife Preserve.

Scott

[Digibacker]

Originally Posted by ethernet_jock

...I get more disgusted every time I read another bickering bitchy response from him. This kind of thing REALLY detracts from this entire forum...

I have to agree. There have been several threads now where I've eventually backed out with the sentiment, "there's another one Corwin ruined."

It's unfortunate to say that, because I honestly feel that everyone has the right to express their opinions and speak freely about them. It's just that Corwin seems bent on a mission to keep hitting people over the head with his opinions and is not satisfied to let people have any contrary views.

Corwin -- your message is understood, clear and well documented. Lets let it rest, please.

[Corwin]

Originally Posted by Digibacker

"there's another one Corwin ruined."

Ruined? That may be one side of it, but every coin has two sides. The flip side of this coin is that certain posts by a cohort of people in self-denial about their sexuality are ruining this forum for others. I know you want me to stay silent about this frustration, but I've done that long enough. In this case, if they get to post about their homoerotic experiences, I get to call them about flaunting their self-proclaimed heterosexuality.

[claygrant]

Originally Posted by Corwin

Ruined? That may be one side of it, but every coin has two sides. The flip side of this coin is that certain posts by a cohort of people in self-denial about their sexuality are ruining this forum for others. I know you want me to stay silent about this frustration, but I've done that long enough. In this case, if they get to post about their homoerotic experiences, I get to call them about flaunting their self-proclaimed heterosexuality.

Yes, ruined. This is a thread I started and I'm sick of reading new posts that have nothing to do with my original post. I already asked for the personal attacks to stop, but you totally ignored my request. If you want to discuss people flaunting their heterosexuality, you can create a new thread and quote anything you disagree with there.

[ethernet_jock]

When I post in an existing thread about a particular topic - I generally try to stay on topic. There's nothing about that other than simple online etiquette. In my very first response on this thread to Corwin's first post - my mainline remark was that taking this off topic to highlight one's own personal opinions/frustrations or WHATEVER you want to call it is inappropriate and beyond offensive in and of itself.

If you don't like what I have to say... keep it to yourself. If you find my mere presence frustrating to your very existance, that sounds like a personal problem. This is a world full of different people with different perspectives and viewpoints, if one is to expect that everyone should agree that everything and everyone can fit into simple black and white categories.... and then when it doesn't happen - freak out.... and self-justify freaking out.

Then one needs help.



-----

In another light - thank you everyone else for pointing out once again that this IS a thread about being worshipped.

-----

A short remark on my personal take of "sexuality" and definitions thereof. Listen to it, ignore it, or be offended, or not.... I don't care.

Wouldn't it be nice and easy to live in the universe if:

* Time was truly linear? We pretend it is, to make it easier for people to understand, but that doesn't mean that it is.

* Every action a person made could be easily filtered into "wrong" or "right", "bad or "good"? If I kill an old white man because he is beating to death a young black child - have I done something right or wrong? What if the child killed his wife just before that? Who's right, who's wrong?

* Every person could be easily classified statically and permanently as "gay", "bisexual", or "straight"? Either based on their historical actions or not? We try to do this to make understanding one-another easier and it helps us to filter out those to whom we wish to spend our time and those who would otherwise be a "waste of energy". However - while doing this - we know that this is never the full truth.

Just like EVERYTHING else in the universe... and I mean EVERYTHING... including a person's concept of "morality".... Sexuality is BOTH Dynamic AND 3-Dimensional in nature. There is not a single dimension of "gay" or "straight". There is not a two-dimensional sliding scale from "gay" through "bisexual" down to "straight".... there are three dimensions that comprise behavior, feeling, attitude, lust, love, and many other variables. Where a given person sits in that sexual "space" at any given point in time is completely and directly related to all the contributing factors of that particular moment... and that point in "space" can shift instantly given a change in environment (perceived or real) and/or perspective.

Corwin - just because humans have created words in a dictionary with definitions to help them understand and filter/sort behavior and attitude types... does not make it the whole truth, all the truth, and nothing but the facts. Believeing so and with such passion that you would be personally offended when someone defies that definition directly - is nothing but immature. Clinging desperately to such notions is nothing but trolodyte-ish.

Whether or not you like or respect me (which clearly you do not)... this should have nothing to do with your respect for everyone else on this forum. Back off and let these people have their time together. Making rude interruptions with your feelings and attitudes like the one you made in this thread is nothing short of completely disrespectful for everyone else's time and energy. It shows that you really do think you're more important than everyone else... the definition of arrogance.

[onelocolobo]

First I'm gonna apologize for starting this reply with an off the topic reply (Sorry Clay)

But seriously, labels are why this world has so many issues with hate. People are people. People love, people hate, people do bad things, people do good things. If we could just realize we all belong to the human race, we all have our own mind and our own choices to make we'd be better off. White, black, gay, straight (or bi) what does it REALLY matter?

And now, going back to the thread. . . man would I love to find a muscle guy to worship every day . Why do you think I joined this site. I "worship" all you guys from my own living room.

[Marco_ukmus]

Well, I have thought a lot about whether i oughta respond or not, I know i said i would not glam, but not wanting to feed Mr Corwins ego, he is right on a couple of the points raised. Please note, that was a COUPLE!

Anyway, here it goes...

Originally Posted by Corwin

You said: "Frankly, I want to have a family one day, and i know i am straight." The clear implication here is that to have a family, one has to be straight. Why bring up your desire for a family in the context of your sexual orientation identity if you were not relating the two?

I can see your point. When I made this comment, I meant in the traditional sense, where by both parties and equally and fully envolved in the process, rather than, adoption or any of the other alternatives. I most certainly did not wish to offend anyone. Arguably, I should have thought more about what i wanted to say before posting rather than diving straight into it. We are all guilty of that sometimes, and arguably is why flame threads go on and on...

Originally Posted by Corwin

And, once again, there is a difference between identity and orientation. You can call yourself whatever you want. Sexual orientation is NOT a choice, identity is. People lie to themselves all the time. People also hurt other people with their lies. That's not that hard to understand.

You keep re-iterating this point, and ironically, like the rest of us whom read the threads fully, we heard you the first time! Well obviously people will get hurt with lies, if not those whom are being lied to, then the person that is telling them. You do have a tendency to state the bloody obvious...And yes! people do lie to them selves all the time. Some times people are too busy or have too much going on in their lives to process certain thoughts or desires and thus it is indeed easier to postpone it by simply lying to ones self. Whether this is a good or bad thing is hard to tell and differs from situation to situation, from person to person. There is no right or wrong.

Originally Posted by Corwin

First, I've never labelled you anything. I've said that male-on-male frottage is a homosexual sex act.

You have Corwin. I could prove it, but in fear of exacerbating the situation, I won't.

Originally Posted by Corwin

Second, why should being called gay be offensive? Is there something wrong with being gay? People assume I am straight all the time. That's not offensive to me. Why should the opposite be true of you.

Good point. Well, since you have put me in this position, i may as well be honest with you; Like i said before, I think i'm 90% straight, 10% curious. The fact that i am curious means that I guess i am sexually confused (for the time being at least). Of course there is nothing wrong with being called gay and being gay. I guess i find it offsensive, or said i did, because i am at a rather intesting era in my life where i am trying to workout who the hell i am, which for most people is done way before the age of 24, but, having a rather colourful past with regards to my family (which obviously im not going into, would bore you to death anyway, beside, i've obviously moved on), I had way too much going on so postponed it until now. So, it was easier for me to just push it all to one side and carry on. However, I know this is not a good idea, and thus am trying to figure it out now. I think I will inevitably fall into the straight category, although, I do need to make sure, because i don't wish to get serious with say a female and have kids and what not, and then find i wanna go in another direction if i can avoid it. Thus its easier to label one sle fin a partically category based on what you think you are until such time as your 100% sure of where you stand. Inevitably, in less you are sure which side you bat for, people are going to get hurt in the discovery process, but i think this is all down to being honest with those one meets and being up front about it, so that there is an understanding of this delima. I'm sorry for implying that being gay is offensive or bad. I did not mean it.

Originally Posted by Corwin

You have said you find same-sex muscle worship erotic. Guess what -- that's a homosexual sex act. I'm pretty sure I haven't said that makes anyone gay or bisexual (though it certainly makes them not straight) -- but pointing out the homoeroticism of this behavior seems to really set some people off. Hmmmm....

Addressed previously.

Originally Posted by Corwin

erotic: of, devoted to, or tending to arouse sexual love or desire

so, no, it can't.

I do wish you'd stop with the definitions, like Ehter said, we all have dictionaries, and lets face it, most of us don't give a toss.

As for the "so, no, it can't"; I believe in Ether's post completely. Life is not Black and white, and I know you know this, just for some reason still try to align things into definitive categories. Perhaps, by putting things into definitive categories it makes it easier for you to comprehend and process and somehow more acceptable, and indeed, this is very logical, we all do it to varying degrees, however, human's are so illogical in the main. And like Ehter said, this whole sex thing, what we find attractive, what we enjoy doing and what makes us who we are, is so complex that it could surely be defined. I do agree that you oughta try to learn and accept that everyone is different and that where we sit on the line of sexuality is, like ehter said, dependable on so many different attributes.

Originally Posted by Corwin

This is a public forum. You are posting about your behaviors and using labels. Commenting on such things, whether perceived rude or not, is appropriate. I've already explained why I find both the closet and some people's need to enable that closet offensive. I certainly understand that those people who are deeply in denial will react viscerally. If it is that upsetting to you, perhaps you need to look at why what you are saying is problemattic.

Actually, I don't understand why people who are, like me trying to find their way does offend oyu. To me, being in the closet is only valid once the person has found that they are gay. If they do find that they are straight say, then they were never in the closet. Being in the closet to me is in denial of what they already know. Perhaps lifes to complicated to tell their family and friends. Either way, if they generally don't know where they stand, like me, then they are not in the closet, they are sorta in limbo between worlds.

Originally Posted by Corwin

Actually, I don't mind you. I think you need to write a bit better, and are sexually confused, but I don't not respect you. Ether on the other hand...

Well, thats good. Hating anyone is self destructive. As for the writting better; It know doubt has crossed a few peoples minds as to why a guy with serval degrees can't spell very well, and has bad grammer, indeed it no doubt is very obvious, I am infact slightly dyslexic. Now before anyone says anything, having dyslexica does not in anyway mean your thick. Albert einstein himself was dyslexia, and i don't think anyone has called him dumb. Dyslexica tend to practical, good with numbers and symbols, tend to be engineers (like myself), and tend have good spacial and internal modelling skills, to mention but a few. This different way in which the brain is "wired" menas that, Dyslexics tend to be rather bad at spelling and grammer because the english language is not very logical, and Dyslexics tend to be logical thinkers. Sorry to go seriously off topic, but i hope that, by posting, I will help calm this thread down and put us back on the straight and narrow. I would suggest like Claygrant said, you oughta raise a new thread yourself to attend to issues such as the one here, although, I doubt I would respond much to any thread you raise in fear of having to type a huge noval, just to defend myself.

Ok, so hopefully, we can move on now...

Marc
P.S. Scott, thanks for your funny post * chuckle *

[Marco_ukmus]

Originally Posted by beachmuscle

marc ,,,,

how about a sponsor , growth encourager and growing musclehead who likes to worship all wrapped up into one ?

Man, if only i lived near you then that would be great, and i am VERY flattered, but we need to be realistic. You obviously need to find someone who is at the very least, in the same country as you. Have you seen the amzaing super sizing progress of Scott lately... He would make a fantastic project i'm sure what with the gains hes already achieving.

Good luck, both of you should you decide to go ahead with it or not.

Marc

[hoosierlifter]

Honestly, how do you find these guys to worship? I live in Indiana, and I think that all the "worship worthy" guys move out of state. lol. I have yet to find one that is either worship material, or if they are, they aren't willing to meet.

[Marco_ukmus]

Originally Posted by hoosierlifter

Honestly, how do you find these guys to worship? I live in Indiana, and I think that all the "worship worthy" guys move out of state. lol. I have yet to find one that is either worship material, or if they are, they aren't willing to meet.

Reading your stats I can't see why at your size you could not find some to worship you... I mean just look at me, i'm not big at all yet and am so surprised that people wanna. Can't wait to get 17"+ arms like you mate... Then there will be no stopping me lol

Marc

[mustardman]

If I may make a suggestion guys...if someone posts an off-topic comment, why not respond directly to that poster rather than on the board, which ends up increasing the chances that the thread will continue off topic.

Now on topic. I'm pretty new here, and this is, I think, my first post on the Evolution Archive. I'm much older than most of you--turned 48 last April. I've been working out steadily for about 17 years, ever since I had to have physical therapy for badly broken elbow. When I was younger and REALLY skinny, I dreamed of being big (what a surprise!) and after I started working out, people commented on the change in my appearance, but let's face it--we are all have our genetics to contend with. I'll always be tall and thin, and while my chest and quads respond very nicely to my workouts, my arms don't at all The good news is, when I was married 22 years ago, I weighed 139 lbs. Now I'm at 175. I probably won't get much bigger without serious effort, but I've got a family, a job and a community to occupy me, and I'm pretty satisfied with how I look.

Now, here's the good part...I get worsihipped regularly. As in frequently. As in once or twice a week. By lots of different guys. There is definitely a market out there for guys to be worshipped (or admired, if you prefer) who are older, lean, muscular (but not huge) with that masculine (daddy) look--balding, facial hair, hairy chest. I love having guys run their hands over my body as I flex for them, I love taking on a very dominant role with them, I love having them bury their faces iin my pecs while I flex or bouncing my pecs while they watch, or whatever I feel like doing for them, or whatever they have told me they'd like to see. I have had a few guys tell me they just want to have a muscle experience and are not looking for anything sexual at all, and in those situations, it has been very businesslike and non-erotic. In other situations, the worshipping is completely erotic. I've been worshipped by guys who are very out of shape and can't believe that someone like me would have anything to do with them (as if my body makes me a better human being?) and I've been worshipped by guys who are twice my size and vastly more muscular. When this all started, I was kind of amazed by it all. Not anymore. What's the secret?

Attitude...it's a game, a fun game in which everyone involved has fun and get's something out of it, and then we can go home to our wives, children, boyfriends, parents, pets, whatever and go about our lives.

The other secret is that there is a worshipper out there for all types of bodies. You certainly don't have to be a competition bodybuilder, much as we all would probably like to be!

Cheers, guys!

[hoosierlifter]

Marco ukmus

Thanks for the compliment. I guess maybe I'm still too self-critical. I used to be overweight and finally got tired of it and started lifting in 1999. I've done pretty well, and I do get compliments and even have people grab my arms and ask me to flex. I guess I just don't see myself as a worship worthy person. Maybe in time.

[Lucas88]

Originally Posted by joeylawrencefan

I've had a couple of recent experiences that may not quite qualify as worship but they were still gratifying. I started working out again about 8 months ago after a long absence. I've gone from 194 at 24.4 bf to 180 at 16% bf. My chest and arms are growing and my waist is getting smaller. I'm 5'6" 45c 34w 16a....

Thanks for sharing...it's nice to hear about guys getting that kind of attention...and you've got some great measurements...keep up the good work!

[massingUP]

Worshipping and being worshipped can be a whole lot of fun -- but for me the fun lies in its mutuality. I don't particularly get off on being solely the object of worship for some guy who hasn't put in some good time and effort into the gym himself.

Not that I have a "minimum size requirement" or anything -- after all, I'm nowhere near as big as I want to be either -- it's just that I prefer to play with guys whose attraction to muscle has led them into the gym to become what they desire rather than with guys who are content to worship from afar (or a-close, as the case may be).

And the best thing to me is getting into that hardcore muscleplay space with another guy who really understands it and revels in it. And the best part is watching a guy's eyes glaze over in unadulterated lust when I flex a bicep for him... and then he does the same for me.

Now, I'm not quite sure if I want to wade into the debate that's been going on here, but I think it might be worthwhile to pull back and think a bit about context. Most guys reading this thread clearly enjoy muscleworship, and some certainly seem to enjoy man-on-man muscleplay. This is all seems fine and dandy. What's up for debate, it would seem, is the political implications of this.

Lots of guys here would seem to suggest that there isn't a political dimension to this kind of thing -- that it's a purely personal choice that has no meaning except for the two (or more) folks in the room having a good time. But to many self-identified queer and gay folks, sexual acts and choices inherently have a political dimension -- due to a long history (that's still going strong) of people in political power telling other people what kind of sex and love they can and can't have. And furthermore, telling them that if they have the kind of sex and love they want, then they CAN'T have all sorts of other things they might want: adoptions, marriage rights, hospital visitation rights, etc.

So I think that a bit part of the difference here is between those who see sexual acts as being purely personal and sexual acts as being political -- and it doesn't surprise me that it's the guys who self-identify as straight who seem most willing to eschew the idea that sexual acts have political dimensions. Many queer folks haven't been given the choice to experience their sexual desires and acts as apolitical -- and so they don't. (Please note: I'm using all sorts of words like "many" and "seems" and "self-identify" -- I can't read anyone's mind and wouldn't claim to, so if this analysis doesn't represent you or the way you think, that's fine. I'm just making some general observations.)

The other big issue I see swirling around in this debate is the difference between sexual acts and sexual identities. I know that Corwin has beaten this drum in his own inimitable way, but I thought I'd try to outline my own thinking here, with some examples from HIV/AIDS prevention work, which I'm hoping will help clarify things a bit.

There are lots and LOTS of guys out there in the world who like to fool around with other guys -- blowjobs, fucking, frottage, whatever -- but who would never self-identify as "gay." They just like to get it on with a buddy from time to time, or do it when they're drunk, or whatever. But "gay"? No way.

Now, this poses a problem for HIV/AIDS prevention workers who want to reach these guys with messages about safer-sex practices, condom use, etc -- because in the past the prevention works have gone through gay bars, gay bathhouses, gay social networks, etc to get this message across. But this doesn't work for these men-who-have-sex-with-men-but-don't-consider-themselves-gay. And so all sorts of social and educational programs have sprung up at various AIDS orgnaizations around North America designed specfically to address this crowd without alienating them by calling them gay.

This seems to be a pretty clear distinction in the situation I've described - guys are fucking (a sexual act) with other guys (a same-sex pairing) but neither of which identify as "gay." Fine -- "gay" is an identity category which some people may or may not feel comfortable with or willing to claim, but certain acts are pretty clear-cut same-sex sexual acts. Like two guys fucking. So it is entirely possible to be engaging in same-sex sexual behaviour without identifying as gay.

But things seem to get a bit less clear when we try to talk about this here on the board. And I think it's because the line between "enjoying muscles" on a sport/aesthetic level and "getting off on muscles" on a sexual level is a fine line. And one that shifts around from time to time. When I go to a bodybuilding show -- as an out, gay musclelovin' stud -- there are some guys whose bodies I appreciate aesthetically and others who just turn me on. That's the nature of desire. It shifts.

But if something turns me on, it seems to me that there's clearly a sexual dimension -- and I think it's important to acknowledge that that has political implications. Even if it's just for how I think about myself in relation to other men in the world. That's politics.

Even more important is the fact that it was the political protests and battles fought by sexual liberationists (which included some straight-identified folks, btw) that have created the social possibility for guys to get together and talk about how much they get off on muscle in a quasi-public environment. We are all of us -- whether we're gay-identified muscle-lovers or str8-identified SM junkies, or just folks who enjoy the fact that it's socially acceptable now to talk about sex and desire in public ways -- beneficiaries of the hard-working people who fought about the politics of sex over the last 100 years.

Okay. 'Nuff said.

-- James

[ethernet_jock]

James,

Thank you! That makes quite a bit more sense than any lambasting directly insulting flame post could've. I now at least understand and respect this perspective for which Corwin feels so passionate and he is CLEARLY fighting the same battle you are in many ways. What I cannot respect - however - is his approach.

With this concept in mind - I will most definitely re-think my attitude a bit. It doesn't change any who I am... a bisexual married to a woman and leading an otherwise "straight" life... but it definitely changes my understanding of the environment.

Thanks again!

-Chris

[ethernet_jock]

oh and mustardman!!

Thank you for joining our board and weighing in with your experience!!

That was a GREAT bit of information you shared with us and it taught me quite a bit about a world I'm just beginning to understand. Thanks!!

[Corwin]

Originally Posted by Marco_ukmus

Good point. Well, since you have put me in this position, i may as well be honest with you; Like i said before, I think i'm 90% straight, 10% curious. The fact that i am curious means that I guess i am sexually confused (for the time being at least). Of course there is nothing wrong with being called gay and being gay. I guess i find it offsensive, or said i did, because i am at a rather intesting era in my life where i am trying to workout who the hell i am, which for most people is done way before the age of 24, but, having a rather colourful past with regards to my family (which obviously im not going into, would bore you to death anyway, beside, i've obviously moved on), I had way too much going on so postponed it until now. So, it was easier for me to just push it all to one side and carry on. However, I know this is not a good idea, and thus am trying to figure it out now. I think I will inevitably fall into the straight category, although, I do need to make sure, because i don't wish to get serious with say a female and have kids and what not, and then find i wanna go in another direction if i can avoid it. Thus its easier to label one sle fin a partically category based on what you think you are until such time as your 100% sure of where you stand. Inevitably, in less you are sure which side you bat for, people are going to get hurt in the discovery process, but i think this is all down to being honest with those one meets and being up front about it, so that there is an understanding of this delima. I'm sorry for implying that being gay is offensive or bad. I did not mean it.

Mark,

Thanks for your honesty. I'm sorry I am being so rough on you. I do believe this should be a safe space for people dealing with issues of sexuality. I do not believe it should be a safe space for the perpetuating the closet. What I see happening here is not people helping you deal with such issues, but helping you justify repressing them. Posts that tell you that it is a choice, or that straight people do it can be harmful both to you and to those who love you. That's what I see happening in this thread.

Living a lie is never an answer. Guys who deny same-sex feelings often get married only to cheat on their wives by sneaking out for sex with other men. This often leads to divorce and a hardships that can be avoided. Society imposes rules and expectations, and defying those takes courage. I strongly believe in supporting the courageous act and opposing the forces that oppress and cause harm.

Don't worry about labels. If you are trying to figure out who you are -- searching for your identity -- don't try to fit into a labels. straight, gay, bisexual are all labels. Feel free to explore and discover what feels natural to you. What is ultimately important is your happiness, not the label society wants to impose on that happiness.

Take care,

[Corwin]

Originally Posted by claygrant

Yes, ruined. This is a thread I started and I'm sick of reading new posts that have nothing to do with my original post. I already asked for the personal attacks to stop, but you totally ignored my request. If you want to discuss people flaunting their heterosexuality, you can create a new thread and quote anything you disagree with there.

It's called thread drift. It happens in every thread, and there is a long history of it on the internet. It happened in the thread I started called Coming Out as a Bodybuilder. It's not ruining anything -- it is called discussion and conversation (and argument).

[Corwin]

Originally Posted by massingUP

Lots of guys here would seem to suggest that there isn't a political dimension to this kind of thing -- that it's a purely personal choice that has no meaning except for the two (or more) folks in the room having a good time. But to many self-identified queer and gay folks, sexual acts and choices inherently have a political dimension -- due to a long history (that's still going strong) of people in political power telling other people what kind of sex and love they can and can't have. And furthermore, telling them that if they have the kind of sex and love they want, then they CAN'T have all sorts of other things they might want: adoptions, marriage rights, hospital visitation rights, etc.

Are you implying that I am political? Hmmmm....

[ethernet_jock]

Originally Posted by Corwin

Living a lie is never an answer. Guys who deny same-sex feelings often get married only to cheat on their wives by sneaking out for sex with other men. This often leads to divorce and a hardships that can be avoided. Society imposes rules and expectations, and defying those takes courage. I strongly believe in supporting the courageous act and opposing the forces that oppress and cause harm.

Don't worry about labels. If you are trying to figure out who you are -- searching for your identity -- don't try to fit into a labels. [i

straight[/i], gay, bisexual are all labels. Feel free to explore and discover what feels natural to you. What is ultimately important is your happiness, not the label society wants to impose on that happiness.

Take care,

Corwin,

I have never hated you... but I have disliked your attitude towards me and been offended by your invalid/assumption-based remarks of my "morality". I've always thought you were a briliant person and up until recently - respected you entirely. I have said this before as well.

What I'm getting to is, I don't understand your hatred for me given the remarks you made above... Why then is it a problem for you that I:

1.) Self-Identify as "Bisexual"?

2.) Am married to a woman, and have been for nearly 9 years now. During that time I DID engage in sexual activity (but never sex) with other men as I learned my identity better and later regretted such actions... but was not sorry for the discovery that occured?

3.) No longer participate in sexual activity with other men in any way - and have not for quite some time.

My mis-directions of the past never actually resulted in a negative effect for my family and loved-ones and - if anything - I love my wife more now today than I ever have before. Partially because I'm more comfortable today with who I am and how I feel than I ever have been before. While I have never disagreed what what I did IS truly "immoral" - I also cannot see how you can judge me as a person and on a permanent basis for these actions alone and toss out everything else in the "package" on the sole direction of your serious hatred.

Would you have preferred it that I lie to you all and claim to have always been bisexual but totally monogmous to my various partner(s)?

Would you have preferred it that I lie to myself and claim to be straight - never admitting to my own feelings and staying confused as all shit?

How could have I done this better? since you seem to know what it's like to live in my shoes and feel so strongly that I've made irriversibly wrong choices in my life so deserving of your incredible hate of me?

I just don't get it... Until I read this post to Marko... I had given up completely on ever understanding you. But now I feel like I need to know.

Why don't you come out from behind your blind hatred, the complex words that you so covet and that give you strength, and tell me why you REALLY feel this way?

In a previous thread you state that your entire hatred for me relies upon the fact that I was considering a fall to temptation once again to a guy that I've known and loved as a brother for 12+ years... and seeking advice on that temptation. Would it have been better if I just didn't tell anyone here, didn't ask for advice on something I knew wasn't good... and went ahead and fucked with him?

Or would you prefer that nobody ever has any "immoral" temptations if they're a "good person" and that nobody should ever feel that way?

[jammgym3]

Originally Posted by Corwin

sexual orientation is defined by a person's actions, emotions and fantasies. sexual orientation identity is what someone calls themselves. these are two very different things. lots of so-called straight people have sex with people of the same-sex. Their actions would lead a sex researcher to label them as something other than straight, irregardless of what they call themselves.


.

as a friend of a sexual counselleur i can say you are wrong. some may say that, just as some may say homosexuality is wrong, but some may not. don't essentialize a group of people and justify your argument by it. homosexuality, like most other things is a social construct. the taxonomy of sexuality is debilitating and highly destructive. you perpetuate this with you labels. as one of my tutors says, the danger of labels is that they can be turned into 'things'.

[Marco_ukmus]

Originally Posted by Corwin

Mark,

Thanks for your honesty. I'm sorry I am being so rough on you. I do believe this should be a safe space for people dealing with issues of sexuality.

Well, to be honest, I am some what annoyed that you kinda forced me to be so honest, Surely its down to me whether I wanna talk about it or not... obviously I did not have to be so honest, I could have either said nothing or lied but its only when it dawned on me that infact probably a lot other people are going through this i thought i'd express them in defense of the remarks made. And since posting, I have received numerious PM's so I guess its true. Also I feel that by discussing it with all the comments from everyone here that i have indeed kinda re-aligned some thoughts in my mind, so thats another positive. Having said that, if I wanna agony arnt I will make the first move, it should not be forced upon anyone, just becuase you feel that i or anyone else who is unsure of where they stand might inadvertanly be infecting other people with their beliefs.

Originally Posted by Corwin

I do not believe it should be a safe space for the perpetuating the closet.

Who said i am.

Originally Posted by Corwin

What I see happening here is not people helping you deal with such issues, but helping you justify repressing them.

Well firstly, did i ever ask for help? And I dont need people to help me deal with anything, apart from things that will help me grow obviously I am fine and happy as i am (excluding my body). And talking hyperthetically, so what if people are helping to justify it? why do you care so much anyway?

Originally Posted by Corwin

Living a lie is never an answer.

If indeed it is a lie, rather than something they are unsure about.

Originally Posted by Corwin

Guys who deny same-sex feelings often get married only to cheat on their wives by sneaking out for sex with other men.

Why do I get the feeling this is an indirect comment made about Ether... Have you got something against the nice fella? Because it sure appears that way...

Originally Posted by Corwin

I strongly believe in supporting the courageous act and opposing the forces that oppress and cause harm.

So you are on a mission then...

Originally Posted by Corwin

Don't worry about labels. If you are trying to figure out who you are -- searching for your identity -- don't try to fit into a labels. straight, gay, bisexual are all labels. Feel free to explore and discover what feels natural to you.

Well, I guess I have to find out who i am... dont wanna get to 60 something and then regret it, so its now or never.

Originally Posted by Corwin

What is ultimately important is your happiness, not the label society wants to impose on that happiness.

Agreed. And thanks for your, in the main, constructive post. I know that deep down your a nice person, and respect your opinions, and in the main you do usually have got good points to mention, although, due to their rather poignent nature tend to cause people to get upset if not treated respectfully, which, many times I believe you don't think about the effects of it on other people. Hell, despite the fact that the topic has indeed drifted away from its orginal intent, I have received quite a number of PM's so it has effected a lot of people whom share the same dilema. Another positive is that this discussion has also arguably forced some not so new, otherwise lurkers to post for the first time. Sorry, always trying to find the positives in any situation...

Anyway, take care Corwin, but for gods sake, sort this thing out between you and Ether, but not in the public forums... in a new thread if you must...

Take care!

Marc

[joeylawrencefan]

I'll get this topic back on thread. I went out Friday night in a tight shirt that I know shows off muscle. There weren't a lot of people out but I ran into 2 old friends who have been together for awhile. They haven't seen me in a tight shirt since I started working out again a few months back.

Both of the guys are thin guys. It was obvious how much one of them was into my muscles though. He kept commenting on my pecs and say how it looked like I was adding muscle and losing weight at the same time. Which of course I am. To be admired by someone in front of their boyfriend was really hot. My friend actually reached over and rubbed my pecs right in the club.

I love the way shirts fit me now. Yesterday my mom's hairdresser (she's like 60 years old) told me how obvious it is that I work out and how buff I was. It was a little embarassing in front of my Mom but I enjoyed it nonetheless.

Man I can't wait to get into the gym today.

[Corwin]

Originally Posted by Marco_ukmus

Well, to be honest, I am some what annoyed that you kinda forced me to be so honest, Surely its down to me whether I wanna talk about it or not... obviously I did not have to be so honest, I could have either said nothing or lied but its only when it dawned on me that infact probably a lot other people are going through this i thought i'd express them in defense of the remarks made. And since posting, I have received numerious PM's so I guess its true. Also I feel that by discussing it with all the comments from everyone here that i have indeed kinda re-aligned some thoughts in my mind, so thats another positive. Having said that, if I wanna agony arnt I will make the first move, it should not be forced upon anyone, just becuase you feel that i or anyone else who is unsure of where they stand might inadvertanly be infecting other people with their beliefs.

Yes, it should be up to you. I am sorry I was so rough on you. But in many ways, you did make the first move. You posted here, and you posted about your experiences. Those were definitely your moves. Believe it or not, my ultimate goal was always to make sure this space was safe for those type of moves. As I've said to the people I IM/PM with, I make a damned good bad cop and a really bad good cop.

Originally Posted by Marco_ukmus

Who said i am.

This doesn't exactly parse with the context ("I do not believe it should be a safe space for perpetuating the closet.").

Originally Posted by Marco_ukmus

Well firstly, did i ever ask for help? And I dont need people to help me deal with anything, apart from things that will help me grow obviously I am fine and happy as i am (excluding my body). And talking hyperthetically, so what if people are helping to justify it? why do you care so much anyway?

Didn't you? I think that might be a matter of perspective. But I didn't start this for you specifically.

As for why I care, read what massingUp says. As I posted, the closet is harmful, especially politically. You can read this story in the NY Times magazine, or this story about the effect of the closet on doctors/patients in the UK. The closet is a lie, and its effects permeate society to harm GLBTQ people.

Originally Posted by Marco_ukmus

If indeed it is a lie, rather than something they are unsure about.

Honesty is important when people question their identity. That is why I (and others) advise not to worry about labels. Labels will hold you back. Even comments about wanting a family indicate that there are certain societal expectations about normality at work in your thinking. A lot of that is fear and negative stereotypes. Gays and lesbians are no different than straight people, but there is this negative bias at work against us that keep people from living honest, healthy lives.

Originally Posted by Marco_ukmus

Why do I get the feeling this is an indirect comment made about Ether... Have you got something against the nice fella? Because it sure appears that way...

Duh! And it is a comment that can be true of many people, some of whom have lived through the situation (Hi Richard!) and some of whom continue to live the lie.

Originally Posted by Marco_ukmus

So you are on a mission then...

Heh... always have been.

Originally Posted by Marco_ukmus

Well, I guess I have to find out who i am... dont wanna get to 60 something and then regret it, so its now or never.

good for you.

Originally Posted by Marco_ukmus

Agreed. And thanks for your, in the main, constructive post. I know that deep down your a nice person, and respect your opinions, and in the main you do usually have got good points to mention, although, due to their rather poignent nature tend to cause people to get upset if not treated respectfully, which, many times I believe you don't think about the effects of it on other people. Hell, despite the fact that the topic has indeed drifted away from its orginal intent, I have received quite a number of PM's so it has effected a lot of people whom share the same dilema. Another positive is that this discussion has also arguably forced some not so new, otherwise lurkers to post for the first time. Sorry, always trying to find the positives in any situation...

I'm glad you are seeing the positive in this.

Originally Posted by Marco_ukmus

Anyway, take care Corwin, but for gods sake, sort this thing out between you and Ether, but not in the public forums... in a new thread if you must...

We can only hope you serve as a good role model for him.