being worshipped

[ethernet_jock]

huh.... carefully and specifically avoids direct questioning..

interesting.

[Marco_ukmus]

Back on Topic (sorta)

Originally Posted by joeylawrencefan

I'll get this topic back on thread. I went out Friday night in a tight shirt that I know shows off muscle. There weren't a lot of people out but I ran into 2 old friends who have been together for awhile. They haven't seen me in a tight shirt since I started working out again a few months back.

Both of the guys are thin guys. It was obvious how much one of them was into my muscles though. He kept commenting on my pecs and say how it looked like I was adding muscle and losing weight at the same time. Which of course I am. To be admired by someone in front of their boyfriend was really hot. My friend actually reached over and rubbed my pecs right in the club.

I love the way shirts fit me now. Yesterday my mom's hairdresser (she's like 60 years old) told me how obvious it is that I work out and how buff I was. It was a little embarassing in front of my Mom but I enjoyed it nonetheless.

Man I can't wait to get into the gym today.

Well, althought this is not strictly muscle worshiping more admiration, it a fantastic story! I have had a simular experience to this which is filed in the my BB log. heres the link http://www.musclegrowth.org/forum/sh...4&postcount=46.

These type of experiences seem to be more common now, as i'm sure you find too, so i tend not to post much about them anymore unless they are really of great interest.

Yes, they sure are very motivating!

Thanks for sharing!

Marc
P.S. Corwin - Even though this discussion arguably should never have happened, I do appreciate your advice in your last post. And i'll be sure to check out your links to those articles. Thank you.

[deetrakt]

Since I "don't have a horse in this race", as they say, I think I can be reasonably objective about some of what's going on here. Then, it would be nice if this "thread" got a little closer to its theme.

First, if you're going to be a rigorous critic of other people's motives and behavior, it's only intellectually honest to be the same with yourself. If you repeatedly find other people delusional or hypocritical, why not look beyond the convenient "good bad cop" label and see yourself for the hectoring, condescending autocrat you frequently become? Why not examine your motives with the same rigor you employ on everyone else? Are you angry, defensive, not as sure of yourself as you pretend?

Second, unless I'm mistaken, nobody here signed up for a 12-Step Program for Muscle Addiction. No one asked anyone here to stage an intervention with an unrepentant muscle addict. Most people here are probably insecure about a lot of things, but unless they ask, and they usually don't, I don't think they're looking to be "helped", especially not so unfeelingly.

Finally, to the other, largely reactive combatant, distinguishing sexual activity from sex seems a little disingenuous for someone who is usually so upfront. A little Bill Clinton,
no? Believe me, if the President and his crew read your diary, they will make no such distinction.

David

[Corwin]

Originally Posted by ethernet_jock

huh.... carefully and specifically avoids direct questioning..

interesting.

You really don't want to start up with me.

[Corwin]

Originally Posted by deetrakt

Why not examine your motives with the same rigor you employ on everyone else? Are you angry, defensive, not as sure of yourself as you pretend?

Why assume that I have not? Why not assume that there is something going larger going on here than this one thread? But that's besides the point...

Originally Posted by deetrakt

Second, unless I'm mistaken, nobody here signed up for

Anything.

In case you hadn't noticed, Marc did a very brave thing that truly surprised me. It is something I certainly suspected (not necessarily about him, but in general about several posters here).

One of the things no one signed up for was a touchy-feely new age society for people to hide their sexuality in the closet with impunity. Unfortunately, posters to this thread jumped in and began to do that -- admit in a public forum to homoerotic activity yet deny its homoeroticism. It has happened in this forum before in other ways and as a very longtime poster here, I don't like the turn of events that I am seeing. I'm now reacting to it. You may not like the way I reacted, but such is life. Sometimes I use a carrot, and sometimes I use a very big stick.

As it turned out, some good came of what happened. You should notice that too before you start judging or questioning my motives.

[Minotaur]

Just some food for thought and my .02:

I think before any of us tell another person what he should do, or how he should be, or how he should live his life and conduct his affairs, we should walk in his shoes and live his life with its issues. Until we all do that, we don't have a right to tell someone else what he should do or how he should be. Moreover, since we don't pay each others' bills or sign each others' paychecks, none of us are beholden to another's perceptions of right and wrong.

That is all... carry on.

[Marco_ukmus]

Originally Posted by deetrakt

Finally, to the other, largely reactive combatant, distinguishing sexual activity from sex seems a little disingenuous for someone who is usually so upfront. A little Bill Clinton,
no? Believe me, if the President and his crew read your diary, they will make no such distinction.

David

I am assuming your referring to me... Well, I am an honest person and despite what you may think of me or the signs, I still have a choice whether to go down that road or not. And I still find woman sexually attractive... Thats whats to confusing... So, like Ether said, its not so clear cut... and hence this side tracked topic...

[deetrakt]

It was Ethernet Jock who, reacting to the assault on his character and morality, attempted to distinguish between "just fooling around" with guys and having intercourse with women. Seemed sort of foolish to me.

In an effort to be fair, I was attempting to find something Ethernet said on this thread I could call him on, since in general I thought he was pretty much being beaten up throughout.

Both you and he are a lot more patient than I would have been. Sure you expressed some uncertainty. Sure the straight guys on here are sometimes defensive in justifying their status and tendencies. So you were thinking aloud sometimes. You're here, right? That means you're looking around and checking things out.

When I see guys in their 20's struggling to understand who they are and what they want, I'm not sure grabbing them by the scruff of the neck and shaking them is the best therapy. There ought to be some middle ground between "new age touchy feely" on the one hand and "tough love" on the other.

The one thing you probably should realize is that gay men, like a lot of minorities, have been beaten down and marginalized. So they tend to get a little protective on their turf. I've seen it happen in gay bars and clubs and among friends/acquaintances. It's
not always pretty, but you can probably understand it.

[Marco_ukmus]

Originally Posted by deetrakt

Of course I wasn't referring to you, Marco!

Opps! Sorry! I'll shut up now then ;0)

[ethernet_jock]

Originally Posted by deetrakt

It was Ethernet Jock who, reacting to the assault on his character and morality, attempted to distinguish between "just fooling around" with guys and having intercourse with women. Seemed sort of foolish to me.

In an effort to be fair, I was attempting to find something Ethernet said on this thread I could call him on, since in general I thought he was pretty much being beaten up throughout.

Both you and he are a lot more patient than I would have been. Sure you expressed some uncertainty. Sure the straight guys on here are sometimes defensive in justifying their status and tendencies. So you were thinking aloud sometimes. You're here, right? That means you're looking around and checking things out.

When I see guys in their 20's struggling to understand who they are and what they want, I'm not sure grabbing them by the scruff of the neck and shaking them is the best therapy. There ought to be some middle ground between "new age touchy feely" on the one hand and "tough love" on the other.

The one thing you probably should realize is that gay men, like a lot of minorities, have been beaten down and marginalized. So they tend to get a little protective on their turf. I've seen it happen in gay bars and clubs and among friends/acquaintances. It's
not always pretty, but you can probably understand it.

thanks... I think.

For me, there is a true dichotomy between the LOVE I have for my wife, and fooling around with guys... which... I haven't done in quite a long time anyway because I DO feel bad about it! Still though, I see a major outlining difference between commited love in a relationship regardless of the sexual status of that relationship.... and getting a random blowjob. I never said that's "ok" or "morally correct"... but that's how I personally see it. I do feel guilty about my actions because I know they're not "ok" and that is the reason why I don't do it anymore... however... I won't back down on continuing to make that distinction for myself. I have never said that's how anyone else's life should be, and I don't expect to be judged one way or another based on that. Foolish perhaps... but it's a concept that works for me for the time being.

I completely understand the gay political "beaten down" perspective as our friend massingup so VERY eloquently put it for us. I will never pretend to know what it feels like to live in that culture or environment but I do respect it. Likewise I would never imagine that someone else should have the right to pretend to know what my life is like or what the right or wrong choices are for me. When I do ask for advice on my life, in the very rare occasion, I take every answer with a few grains of salt... just as they should be taken.

In any other regard, I don't feel as though I've "taken a beating" from anyone... nor do I think Corwin has truly whipped out "the big stick" with which to beat me (honestly, I'd like to see him try as I LOVE a good physical fight). I have a very clear impression that I've made my opinions and beliefs well-known in this forum over the last 6-9 months of debate and that there is a significantly large group of people who - at the very least - respect me for that. I will never win-over Corwin nor do I expect to... . nor does he expect anything of the like from me as he obviously considers me a lesser-intellectual and not worthy of breathing "his air" simply for not seeing things the exactly same way in which he does.

In all - Corwin's attitude says something very clear to me. Something very detracting from the essence of the gay rights movement to which he so dearly clings and fights for. The net is that it is nothing but purely disappointing.... he's a smart guy.... but that's how it is.

Thanks for caring!

[deetrakt]

EJ-

Thanks for reading what I wrote carefully and responding thoughtfully. That's really all anyone can (or at least should) ask.

I, and probably most everyone else here, would also make a distinction--how could you not?-- between fooling around and committed love. That's not what I meant, though.

You seem to be too honest a person to be doing what a professor of mine used to call "the debate tango"--ie., "restating" what the other person says so as to make it less convincing and more easily refuted. So, I'll clarify: I thought you were making a qualitative distinction between "non-intercourse same sex activity" and "heteroxexual intercourse" which I think is both inaccurate and self-deluding. If not, my bad.

That's all i have to say on this: forever.

D

[Corwin]

Originally Posted by deetrakt

You seem to be too honest a person to be doing what a professor of mine used to call "the debate tango"--ie., "restating" what the other person says so as to make it less convincing and more easily refuted. So, I'll clarify: I thought you were making a qualitative distinction between "non-intercourse same sex activity" and "heteroxexual intercourse" which I think is both inaccurate and self-deluding. If not, my bad.

not your bad. his.

I want to correct something I said earlier. people do come here for a reason -- male muscle growth. that is really the raison d'etre for the group. Where there is tension here is over issues of sexuality. It manifests itself in many ways -- straight guys complaining about the gay sex, a desire for female muscle growth, etc, and now, the sexuality of muscle worship.

I've been on this board for several years now, and over that time, the membership has changed and the way sexuality is perceived and dealt with has changed. Sometime the change is positive -- like a place where people can come to explore their sexuality identity. But there is also a negative associated with it -- like people who come here in denial and expect that denial and self-delusion to be accepted and tolerated. Maybe it should be and maybe it shouldn't. But part of what these people want to do is also change the character of the group (e.g. "hey, let's have female muscle growth too"), in my opinion, and it is that change in character (with all its manifestations) that I strongly object to.

'nuff said.

[rp28nct]

My gym is officially back together after the move, and I'm hitting it hard, again. Anyone in the vicinity want to come over, watch me workout, and feel solid muscles growing? Let's talk about some "sincere admiration."

Russ

[grywlf]

more in to competion then anything else also since i moved i'm no longer 30 mins from conn i'm 2 hours from just the border .still working out a few details but i wanna make a video of working out problem is camera goes dead in 10-15 mins
so i looking into a adapter for it so i can plug it in for log periods or i gonna have to
swap batteries every 10 mins

[beachmuscle]

wow ,,,,is this really all that complicated ? muscleworship and admiration is realy nor all that uncommon and to varying degress exists in the gay worlds as well as the straight world . also , all of have sexual orientations that is on the kinsey scale ,,,,,,,meaning no one is 100 5 straight or gay ,,,,,and some people who are in the middle of the scale find them selves bisexual....

cant we all just accpet each other as we are and for what we are into ?

i for one am into encouraging muscle growth to superheavy size ,,,,,,,and all that goes with that .........

marco would surely be my choice based on who i have met here so far

[ethernet_jock]

grywlf - radio shack - which I hate - but they will have numerous a/c adapters with varoius size plugs on them and various voltage/wattage/amperage ratings. For a little digi-cam it should only cost you in the $20 range.

[ethernet_jock]

Originally Posted by rp28nct

My gym is officially back together after the move, and I'm hitting it hard, again. Anyone in the vicinity want to come over, watch me workout, and feel solid muscles growing? Let's talk about some "sincere admiration."

Russ

I am SO there in spirit...

unfortunately a matter of 2,000 miles or so separates my mass from yours.

[Corwin]

Originally Posted by beachmuscle

cant we all just accpet each other as we are and for what we are into ?

Oh, for Pete's sake...

Why can't we all just get along? is a nice sentiment, but for some/many, that seems to mean that the non-heterosexual people should tolerate the self-defined straight people (and, for some, their closet), but that the self-defined straight people (or closeted people) should be free to complain about the gay people, gay sex, and be allowed to drift this site into something more comfortable for them. Some define that comfort as being respectful of their closet.

I find all this very hypocritical of them.

There is some evidence below that there are more than a couple self-defined straight people that have problems with gay people/gay sex here, and there's much more around if you want to look for it. Many of the quotes (definitely out of context) have occurred on topics about female muscle growth, drift in the site, etc. In each, there is a complaint about sexuality. Most I feel are unwarranted. Everyone knows that the site is about male muscle growth, and that heterosexual sexual content is fine. (bold face so that everyone can see this) I've even written stories with that content. However, some people either don't notice that content on this site, or want something different (e.g. female muscle growth).

As I said, issues of sexuality have become a hot button topic here. Getting along is fine, but it has to be a two-way street. Clay started a good thread about his experience. Then, people came in, denying the homoeroticism of male-male erotic behavior. Once again, getting along comes to mean protecting the closet, and denying sexual feelings that are classified as gay. As has been pointed out, such denial has real world consequences beyond anything specific to this board.

Let's all just get along does not mean turning a blind eye so you can be smacked around. Sometimes, it is appropriate to smack back. This site is owned by a gay man, has large amounts of gay content, has many gay contributors and in many, many ways, deals with homoerotic topics. If it is fine for some to complain about this, it is also fine to complain about their hypocrisy. This site does not exist in an isolated universe. The real world is a very homophobic place. This site was carved out by non-heterosexuals as a space to explore the pleasures of male muscle growth in the context of male-male eroticism -- and the idea of losing that space to an always-encroaching heterosexual world is worthy of concern. When someone says, "now you are being heterophobic, just like you accuse us of being homophobic," or "I'm not gay, not that there is anything wrong with being gay," is both frustrating and demeans the people who are open about their sexuality. It's a logical bait-n-switch that comes up over and over again in these disagreements and ignores the fact that the larger universe is a heterosexual one -- and that this space for male-male muscle eroticism has been hard won.


'Nuff said (I hope).

--- quotes from various threads on this board ---

Originally Posted by droz

I was wondering if anyone had any links to hetero muscle growth stories? Something that's MF, female muscle growth is cool too. But I'm looking for something that's more my preference. Not that I mind gay muscle growth, some of the stories are cool, I'm just not into guys.

Originally Posted by droz

I'm looking for stories where the guy is dominant and the woman either is into him or she isn't.....and maybe he just has his way with her anway HAHA *smirk*

I've search google, yahoo, excite, lycos et al and haven't had much luck.

I think the hetero muscle growth genre is probably too vanilla or something. I don't know.

Would be nice to have some more stories here with guys getting big and women worshipping them....having sex with them would be cool too HAHA

Originally Posted by Ender

I suppose you could change the name to Gay Male Muscle Growth but would that mean that the gays are as "Hetro-phobic" as they clain straights guys are "homophobic".... Isn't there enough common ground in the idea of guys becoming lean and muscular to get along... If we were to concentrate of the growth and the feeling of increased masculinity rather that having sex with any thing that is half way willing we could all "get off" and there would be less outright pron here...

For me at least the growth is the trun on that sex just detracts from that... IMHO

Originally Posted by mander

looking for staight male/female porno. male bodybuilder/female fitness
model type. have seen channel 69 videos and the women are too freaky.
want buff male and hot buff female action.
thanks

Originally Posted by Yachirobi

I've never really figured out why, with all of the straight guys here, there are never any stories for them. Since I'm bi I wouldn't mind a muscle story where the guy uses his muscles to get with some ladies.

Originally Posted by Marco_ukmus

So it would apear that we straight guys have been harasing you guys... !?!

Whats the friggin point! WHATEVER!

Originally Posted by Radiokida

Great stuff man... nice to see something hetero for a change... it made my day! Just wanted to know how much I appreciate stories with heterosexual themes. Keep it up, and of course I hope you have a sequel to this.

Originally Posted by muscleboytom

Awesome story! How about giving kristen a shot of that muscle growth gas before they head back to the gym...LOL

and one of my all time favorites -- jumping from talking about female muscle growth into heterosexuality.

Originally Posted by BB-61

The trouble with http://www.thevalkyrie.com is that it's more for amazons fantasies.

The trouble with some of the female muscle growth sites you might be thinking about is that it put the women in a dominant role. i.e. giantesses and the like.

What I have not found, and I would spend all my time on if it existed... is a site where men dominate with muscle growth, the sex is heterosexual (I personally prefer even over bisexual protaganists) ... and a little female growth is OK so long as the male remains dominant.

... it seems to me that you are not happy that heterosexual content has found its way to this site, is this the sort of tollerecne that homosexuals generally practice?

Don't I have a right to my own hard on? Is it my fault I was born heterosexual?

[joeylawrencefan]

I agree with beachmuscle, Marco is in a league of his own. He is every worshipper's dream as well as every sponsor's dream.

[ashleydelfin]

Corwin? While I don't disagree with most of what you are saying, I think you made your points ages ago... Trust me, by endlessly repeating yourself you're just managing to make people more stubborn about their position, not changing their minds. And if you're not trying to change their minds then I'd suppose you're just trying to prove to yourself that you are right. And all that quoting!!! I mean, really, it's insane! And the last set of quotes, not like the forum will be turning into a female muscle growth thingie (and if it does it will be because of that "drifting" or whatever thingie you were defending in one of your last posts). Like, really, don't take everything so personally and don't overanalyze, at times people just put something out there without thinking about it.

And you know what? Nobody's really WRONG, they just have different viewpoints. And when you try to force your viewpoint on another person (stares at Corwin) it ends up being that the one who is wrong is you for trying to force what you think on others (like, say, Bush).

And to some (like me) sexuality is not a choice, it was more of the way I was born. But I've met guys and girls who have chosen to experiment. You can call whatever you want to call it but to THEM it's a choice, and we should respect it.

And it's freaky, because you sound like my DAD. And my dad has been trying to convince me for months (ever since he found out, really) that I'm not actually gay, I just identify myself as one (no, really, he said it, in Spanish, but he did). And that I am wrong and seriously confused for thinking I like guys when, deep down, I obviously like girls, because I was born that way. And if I don't accept this "me" I'll live a sad, miserable life and never be truly happy.

(And before you all jump on the pity train, let me just tell you that I am okay, and that while respect my dad's pov it's not my own. Not like I wasn't expecting it, really.)

And beachmuscle, no, we can't all get along. Conflict is what tests and improves ideas and, well, everything. As long as the conflict is handled correctly. Going to war over an ideology is stupid, but debating it and changing it as times and situations change is not. I know this sounds utopic, and it is, but it helps to keep it in the back on your head before you go and do stupid stuff.

Okay, so.. NOW that I've gone and WRITTEN this dorky post, I will go back into topic by saying that I sincerely admire Russ, and if I could I would sincerely admire him while he worked out. And afterwards too!

Because Russ is so deserving of admiration as are so many other guys on this forum =^^=

I know this will not end the fight, or get us back on topic, but still not like I could STAY out of one these conflicts.

~Ashley

[Marco_ukmus]

Originally Posted by ashleydelfin

I will go back into topic by saying that I sincerely admire Russ, and if I could I would sincerely admire him while he worked out. And afterwards too!

Because Russ is so deserving of admiration

I could not agree more. I've "known" Russ for years, i think about 4 maybe more. He has been an inspiration to me since he knew how small and thin i was before i started lifting. He's very commited and works hard, funny too. We've talked for real a few times, and I love his american accent... as do i like the canadian's. He, like me, is really into getting huge! and both of us are working hard to make that a reality. He is about to complete soon, which is something i think i wanna do, but when i have more to show. He's really kind and understanding as well and is also into, like me, muscle worship Only, and i'm sure he does not mind me saying, tapes his... hehe, think i might start doing that... lol! Then make some money hehe.

Anyway, here's to Russ! Your inspirational! * ching *

Marc
P.S. Looking forward to meeting you some day soon ;0)

[biglad69]

The name says it all..........Corwin, Muscle Czar

[Corwin]

Originally Posted by ashleydelfin

Corwin? While I don't disagree with most of what you are saying, I think you made your points ages ago... Trust me, by endlessly repeating yourself you're just managing to make people more stubborn about their position, not changing their minds.

I seem to be endlessly repeating myself because it seems people refuse to understand the terminology at work here. So, I've included some online references below. I'll bold face some things that doesn't seem to be getting through.

When I make a distinction between "sexual orientation" and "sexual orientation identity", I am making a distinction between behavior/attractions and what one calls themself. This distinction seems entirely lost on many of those responding, assuming that such distinctions are matters of opinion rather terms describing differing phenomena. (see the second reference for more on this)

In relation to my last post, which you seem to totally ignore, a person who is heterosexual (kinsey orientation) rarely identifies as gay. On the other hand, people with the kinsey orientation of gay/bisexual often idenfity as straight. The stigma of being openly gay or even being honest with oneself shifts the identy measure toward choices that are socially and religious acceptable. As I pointed out there, gay-spaces are hard won. I've made it perfectly clear that I am willing to argue and fight to protect this one.

Since you bring up Russ, he is a very good example of this conflict between behavior and identity. While he chooses his behaviors and labels, he publicly solicits and encourages others to engage in sins of the flesh, even to the point where he has encouraged another person to covet him over that person's wife. Whatever sin there might be in his religious perspective toward homosexuality, it is outweighed by his desires so that he overlooks other religiously questionnable activities. We are suppose to overlook this hypocrisy in order to all just get along. By doing this, we give credence to the view that there really is something wrong with being openly gay and that gay-spaces have no real value.

Marc took a big step in this thread by realizing that he does need to explore, and to be honest about it. The terms he used to describe his identity are certainly in conflict with that, which is why I advised to drop the labels. They will only hold back his exploration rather than allow it to proceed.

Finally, if you want me to drop it, quit responding to posts that are days old. I've ignored a number of things in this thread, such as repeated calls that everyone should just get along (see last post), Russ's solicitation, etc. At some point, I do stop ignoring them and will comment on them.

From wikipedia

Complexities and terminology

Many people in Western societies today speak of sexual orientation as a unified and actual thing. Over the past thirty years some anthropologists, historians, and literary critics have argued that it actually comprises a variety of different things, including a specific object of erotic desire, and forms of erotic fulfillment (i.e., sexual behaviors).


Three different axes

Sexual orientation generally refers to how people of various genders create spontaneous feelings in the individual, or which orientation a person identifies with (which may be different). According to some interpretations, people's sexual behavior and sexual identity (self-identification) may or may not reflect their sexual orientation. For example, sexual abstinence is independent of sexual orientation in this sense. Some people who may self-identify as having a homosexual orientation engage in heterosexual behavior and even heterosexual marriages to escape social stigma. (See situational sexual behavior.) Some bisexual people have only one sexual or romantic partner at a time, and sometimes happen to have sexual and romantic partners from one only gender throughout their entire lives, despite attraction to some people of both sexes. People with heterosexual attractions may nonetheless have homosexual encounters (including involving self-initiated, initiation by the other party, multiple simultaneous partners, acts of deception, absence of an available partner of the opposite gender, or other unusual social circumstances). A minority of people who self-identify as heterosexual or homosexual actually feel attracted to and engage in sexual behavior with people of both genders.

Some demographic labels specifically refer to sexual behavior, as distinct from orientation or self-identification. For example, see men who have sex with men.

Boundary-drawing

There is a common boundary-drawing problem (or controversy, at least) when considering how to divide a population between "heterosexual", "bisexual", and "homosexual" by behavior or orientation. Should someone be categorized as "bisexual" by behavior if they have any sexual contact with members of both genders? Does group sex count? Is an orgasm required? Or should is there a certain threshold - one quarter of contacts? One third? When classifying by orientation, what fraction of the same-gender population must a person be attracted to in order to move from "heterosexual" to "bisexual"? What "intensity" of attraction is required? Should self-reporting be trusted, or should there be some "objective" measure? Some observers only consider the two poles, others set explicit but somewhat arbitrary boundaries for the middle "box" when precision is required. Many, following the view of Kinsey, view sexual orientation and behavior on a spectrum, from exclusively homosexual to exclusively heterosexual, with continuous or discontinous gradations in between.

---

In this Frontline article, the author discusses why distinctions are important. Most notable is this passage:

"Thus far I have discussed the two definitional components of sexual orientation as if the components themselves were uniform across definitions, but as is evident in the examples already provided, there are important variations. Psychological components of definitions may include the terms "sexual passion," "sexual urge," "sexual feelings," "sexual attraction," "sexual interest," "sexual arousal," "sexual desire," "affectional preference," "sexual instinct," "sexual orientation identity," and "sexual preference." Each of these terms may have a distinct meaning and not necessarily be indicative of the same phenomenon. That is, different terms in definitions may be describing slightly different phenomena despite the similar label for that phenomena."

So, when I make a distinction between "sexual orientation" and "sexual orientation identity", I am making a distinction between behavior/attractions and what one calls themself. This distinction seems entirely lost on many of those responding, assuming that such distinctions are matters of opinion rather terms describing differing phenomena.

In relation to my last post, which you seem to totally ignore, a person who is heterosexual (kinsey orientation) rarely identifies as gay. On the other hand, people with the kinsey orientation of gay/bisexual often idenfity as straight. The stigma of being openly gay or even being honest with oneself shifts the identy measure toward choices that are socially and religious acceptable.

Since you bring up Russ, he is a very good example of this conflict. While he chooses his behaviors and labels, he publicly solicits and encourages others to engage in sins of the flesh, even to the point where he encourages another person to covet him over that person's wife. Whatever sin there might be in his religious perspective toward homosexuality, it is outweighed by his desires so that he overlooks other religiously questionnable activities.

Lastly, Marc took a big step in this thread by realizing that he does need to explore, and to be honest about it. The terms he used to describe his identity are certainly in conflict with that, which is why I advised to drop the labels.

As I pointed out, gay spaces are hard won.

[Corwin]

Originally Posted by ashleydelfin

Corwin? While I don't disagree with most of what you are saying, I think you made your points ages ago... Trust me, by endlessly repeating yourself you're just managing to make people more stubborn about their position, not changing their minds.

I seem to be endlessly repeating myself because it seems people refuse to understand the terminology at work here. So, I've included some online references below. I'll bold face some things that doesn't seem to be getting through.

When I make a distinction between "sexual orientation" and "sexual orientation identity", I am making a distinction between behavior/attractions and what one calls themself. This distinction seems entirely lost on many of those responding, assuming that such distinctions are matters of opinion rather terms describing differing phenomena. (see the second reference for more on this)

In relation to my last post, which you seem to totally ignore, a person who is heterosexual (kinsey orientation) rarely identifies as gay. On the other hand, people with the kinsey orientation of gay/bisexual often idenfity as straight. The stigma of being openly gay or even being honest with oneself shifts the identy measure toward choices that are socially and religious acceptable. As I pointed out there, gay-spaces are hard won. I've made it perfectly clear that I am willing to argue and fight to protect this one.

Since you bring up Russ, he is a very good example of this conflict between behavior and identity. While he chooses his behaviors and labels, he publicly solicits and encourages others to engage in sins of the flesh, even to the point where he has encouraged another person to covet him over that person's wife. Whatever sin there might be in his religious perspective toward homosexuality, it is outweighed by his desires so that he overlooks other religiously questionnable activities. We are suppose to overlook this hypocrisy in order to all just get along. By doing this, we give credence to the view that there really is something wrong with being openly gay and that gay-spaces have no real value.

Marc took a big step in this thread by realizing that he does need to explore, and to be honest about it. The terms he used to describe his identity are certainly in conflict with that, which is why I advised to drop the labels. They will only hold back his exploration rather than allow it to proceed.

Finally, if you want me to drop it, quit responding to posts that are days old. I've ignored a number of things in this thread, such as repeated calls that everyone should just get along (see last post), Russ's solicitation, etc. At some point, I do stop ignoring them and will comment on them.

From wikipedia

Complexities and terminology

Many people in Western societies today speak of sexual orientation as a unified and actual thing. Over the past thirty years some anthropologists, historians, and literary critics have argued that it actually comprises a variety of different things, including a specific object of erotic desire, and forms of erotic fulfillment (i.e., sexual behaviors).


Three different axes

Sexual orientation generally refers to how people of various genders create spontaneous feelings in the individual, or which orientation a person identifies with (which may be different). According to some interpretations, people's sexual behavior and sexual identity (self-identification) may or may not reflect their sexual orientation. For example, sexual abstinence is independent of sexual orientation in this sense. Some people who may self-identify as having a homosexual orientation engage in heterosexual behavior and even heterosexual marriages to escape social stigma. (See situational sexual behavior.) Some bisexual people have only one sexual or romantic partner at a time, and sometimes happen to have sexual and romantic partners from one only gender throughout their entire lives, despite attraction to some people of both sexes. People with heterosexual attractions may nonetheless have homosexual encounters (including involving self-initiated, initiation by the other party, multiple simultaneous partners, acts of deception, absence of an available partner of the opposite gender, or other unusual social circumstances). A minority of people who self-identify as heterosexual or homosexual actually feel attracted to and engage in sexual behavior with people of both genders.

Some demographic labels specifically refer to sexual behavior, as distinct from orientation or self-identification. For example, see men who have sex with men.

Boundary-drawing

There is a common boundary-drawing problem (or controversy, at least) when considering how to divide a population between "heterosexual", "bisexual", and "homosexual" by behavior or orientation. Should someone be categorized as "bisexual" by behavior if they have any sexual contact with members of both genders? Does group sex count? Is an orgasm required? Or should is there a certain threshold - one quarter of contacts? One third? When classifying by orientation, what fraction of the same-gender population must a person be attracted to in order to move from "heterosexual" to "bisexual"? What "intensity" of attraction is required? Should self-reporting be trusted, or should there be some "objective" measure? Some observers only consider the two poles, others set explicit but somewhat arbitrary boundaries for the middle "box" when precision is required. Many, following the view of Kinsey, view sexual orientation and behavior on a spectrum, from exclusively homosexual to exclusively heterosexual, with continuous or discontinous gradations in between.

---

In this Frontline article, the author discusses why distinctions are important. Most notable is this passage:

"Thus far I have discussed the two definitional components of sexual orientation as if the components themselves were uniform across definitions, but as is evident in the examples already provided, there are important variations. Psychological components of definitions may include the terms "sexual passion," "sexual urge," "sexual feelings," "sexual attraction," "sexual interest," "sexual arousal," "sexual desire," "affectional preference," "sexual instinct," "sexual orientation identity," and "sexual preference." Each of these terms may have a distinct meaning and not necessarily be indicative of the same phenomenon. That is, different terms in definitions may be describing slightly different phenomena despite the similar label for that phenomena."

[Corwin]

oops, sorry for the double post -- the edit button malfunctioned

[ashleydelfin]

Yes! I've ignored some of your posts! I'm sorry! They were repetitive and boring and I happen to be a bitch who ignores people who are boring.

And what Russ does is HIS problem and how he balances his religious views with his actions is between him and God. Not like he needs me to stand up for him or anything, but really...

Just... let it go. This is your pov. You're right, you've quoted everyone and everything that could be quoted and have made an outstanding impact on this forum and thread. But that does not mean you're pov is the only one that is right. Okay? Stop repeating, if they didn't get it before they won't get it now, if they thought you were wrong, they'll still think it after reading what they see your post-thesis is. I'm not trying to convince of anything, I'm just trying to tell you that you're not the one holding the chalice of truth, there is none.

Okay?

And I have to go to work now, so I can't get back on topic, hugs to all!

~Ashley

[Corwin]

Originally Posted by ashleydelfin

And what Russ does is HIS problem and how he balances his religious views with his actions is between him and God. Not like he needs me to stand up for him or anything, but really...

What people do in private is their own business. What they do here is public and can be commented on.

You really should read yesterday's post.

[brent]

I've been trying like Hell to keep myself from posting on this topic, but I guess I'll open Pandora's box as well...

I do think that Scott/Corwin can be a little judgmental of Marc and EJ, probably because he sees his earlier self in them. I do wish that he'd give them a little more space to live their lives, but to each his own. Where I really have a problem however is in Russ' assertion that Jesus has anything against homosexuality, and then acting self-riotous on this forum, while still talking about being involved in muscle worship. I have yet to read a statement of Jesus' against homosexuality; most of what I read is about treating everyone around you with Love and respect. I also don't see being gay as a lifestyle, or a choice. That is the way I (and obviously be his posts) Russ were both born. If there was a choice, it would have been God's. He made the choice, now we have to live with it, and move on.

[ethernet_jock]

*claps*

[Lucas88]

Originally Posted by brent

...I have yet to read a statement of Jesus' against homosexuality; most of what I read is about treating everyone around you with Love and respect. I also don't see being gay as a lifestyle, or a choice. That is the way I (and obviously be his posts) Russ were both born. If there was a choice, it would have been God's. He made the choice, now we have to live with it, and move on.

Thank you, Brent.

I held back comment on this thread because I didn't want to contribute to it's highjacking...at this point, it's so far gone I don't even think claygrant cares, which is a shame because it really had potential to be a FUN thread...remember what FUN is people?

Since the thread has become more about sexual orientation and personal attacks, why not throw in my opinion, too.

For the record, I lean toward men pretty far, though certain women really catch my attention...not something I choose, just a physical/mental attraction. The only choice I ever had about being being attracted to men (or women) was how I was going to act on that attraction and live with that action's consequences (or benefits). We all have that same choice whether we label ourselves as gay or not...we don't choose who we are, we choose what we do...two very different things and the right to choose what we do is nobody's business...deal with it.

Expressing an opinion about how person should choose to live or grow or figure out who they really are is one thing and can sometimes even be helpful to that person. Inflicting your opinion as fact and passing judgment based on the limited information presented in a message board on the Internet is an abuse of freedom of expression and only serves to alienate people who might have actually been more sensitive to your views. Honesty delivered with a brick to the head is still a brick to the head and doesn't help clarify anything.

When someone fights so hard for Gay Rights and the freedom to be who we are without qualification to the blatant exclusion of other groups of people or points of view...well that reminds me a little too much of the far right fighting so hard for their freedoms and points of view and suppression of any that don't conform. Freedom is freedom and as long as groups and individuals fight so hard to limit it to their end goals to the exclusion of the goals and rights of others (such as making their own life choices), they've missed the point of freedom altogether.

Just an opinion.

Lucas

[rp28nct]

I haven't been here in a bit, and I see the conversation is about the same as where I left it.

Honestly, I don't know where to begin. I am in no way a champion or example of what to do or how to live life (never claimed to be). Of course, given the fact that I am a Christian, one would think that I'd be able to avoid hypocrisy as large as what I have encountered (I am referring to the conflict between my actions and what I believe). You guys are very right to point that out.

However, none of you have spoken to me at length, nor do you know anything about my motivations other than the brief snippets that I've posted here. Perhaps that's my fault for being lazy and brief or expecting you guys to read my mind. Suffice it to say, that I do not appreciate having people assume things about me and comment on them without first talking to me. For example, my solicitation was meant as a playful joke because I tend to be sarcastic and cover my nervousness with humor. Forums, emails, and posts are horrible vehicles to do this with because the emotion is lost and all that is left is the hard text. With that being said, I will try to be more careful with translating the voice in my head (how I hear myself) and what I write.

Another thing is that I am a Christian, I believe that living a gay lifestyle is a choice and that Scripture is clear about the consequences. I do not believe that God makes anyone homosexual. I already know that many don't agree with those statements, and that's fine. I accept that. But, if you want to talk about it and understand my reasoning and years of struggle that have lead up to that belief, then talk to me directly via email or messenger. It's not something I'll post here for everyone to pick apart. Besides, this is not the right place or suitable way to discuss such details.

I'm trying to be direct, but that will be misunderstood as hypocrisy and self-righteousness... I don't see how to avoid it. All I can offer, is if it bothers you that much, then vent on me directly, please, and spare the forum.

Cheers,
Russ

[ethernet_jock]

trust me guys - I would love more than anything to take Corwin in a cage match and work this out - leaving the forum entirely alone. A little blood and some bruised egos could definitely fix this up...

But I can't sit idle when someone insults me directly and tries to discredit me with false accusations and invalid assumptions about my lifestyle... I just can't.

[glammaman2000]

...HAVE AT IT!Please start a new thread in"off-topic".

[brent]

It looks like Glamma has made a new thread for this fight. So let's get back to the topic, and take the fight elsewhere!

[flexicon1]

Yowza! Great topic! A little drifty, but the few on-topic posts have been great to read.

About a month ago, I was at the gym and had the mind-shifting experience of reading my weight on the scale past the 200 lb. mark! Holy Moly. That's been a goal of mine for a long time. Since then, I've had no fewer than 3 guys mention how big I was looking. What a great feeling!

1) I was at an outdoor arts event, and a photographer acquaintance, who I know dates women, but might have a bit of a bi vibe, did something remarkable and a little weird-feeling: while saying goodbye he took both his hands and patted me heavily on the chest. It was such an unusual gesture I was sure he must be checking out my pecs, which in certain shirts can look impressive. (45" boys!) If only on the last pat I'd had the chutzpah to flex and watch his jaw drop in amazement as he looked in my eyes for a split second with an other-worldly expression. Instead, I just smiled and shrugged and said goodbye.

2) At another outdoor event, a couple of weeks ago, I saw a guy who works freelance sometimes for the production group I work with. He asked me if I'd been working out. My instinct was to portray modesty and self-deprecate. But I noticed it, and willed myself to own it. "Yeah", I said, and smiled. He said I looked like I'd packed on some weight since he'd seen me last, and he grabbed both my arms in a fast awkward way that I recognized as something I'd have done in a similar situation in an earlier incarnation of myself. He confirmed it and said "yeah, you've been hitting the weights." This is an older man who is married with kids, but who I always read as gay. I guess I'll have to re-define that as "muscle-worshipper" and leave the sexuality for someone else to label When I first started working with him, about 7 years ago, I was 45 lbs. lighter, and I don't dress to impress much. Anyway, I only see him at work intermittently, so if he never registered me as a grower, I can understand how seeing me in a more casual atmosphere, in shorts and a t-shirt, might be somewhat revelatory. Or maybe he *had* noticed me growing, and was just waiting for a non-professional environment to grope me in.

Both of these muscle-grabs were uninvited, from guys who I'm not really attracted to, but didn't really offend me. Just felt a little awkward. And I did not feel like getting worshipped by these guys. I think I'd like to have some attraction going if I'm going to explore that. I did like the ego-boost, so I'm not complaining. I look forward to having some muscle kid do the same thing soon!

3) Finally, last week, a guy at work asked me if I was still working out. I am an odd guy, gym-wise, but there are a few guys at work I talk about it with. Anyway, I said yes, I was, and he asked me if I was a little obsessive about it, and I laughed and said "hardly!". I only work out once a week, so I just thought it was a little odd. Anyway, later that day, in the restroom, I checked myself out in the mirror and the shirt I was wearing made me look really built! It's a terry/velour type shortsleeved polo with horizontal stripes that hung off my chest and shoulders very impressively, but it does something magical when untucked: it makes me look like I don't have a gut! I think he must have thought I went on a crash diet or something. He's another guy who is married but gives off a non-straight vibe.

I am the token queer at work, so lots of stuff gets bounced off me, since I'm very open and non-threatening.

Anyway, I am definitely looking for someone to flex for me (get worshipped), or possible mutual admiration (if you need it and I do it for you), if there's any midwestern muscle out there looking to complete a circuit! Sexual or non- would still be cool. Get in touch!

More worship stuff! Please! (Do you want me to beg?)

[glammaman2000]

I drifted around the country in the early 70's as a muscly,drop-dead gorgeous 20yr.old.(we have to be honest)Gay people are AT LEAST 10% of the population,given the#of offers I got from married men!(true but sad)

[ethernet_jock]

just in agreeing with glam... It really has sort-of opened my eyes in the last few years as I've discovered just how many people really are "less than straight" that I encounter on a regular basis. Just the sheer aspect of noticing someone who's "checking you out" vs. someone who's just "sizing you up"... it gets more obvious to me every day that I'm not NEARLY alone.

Very awesome tidbit stories man! I love this kinda stuff... keep it rolling!

[brent]

I don't want to veer too far off topic again, now that the tread is getting back to topic, but here I go:

Back in the late 1990's Rob & I rented the bottom floor in a house with several other gay room-mates (rent in Portland is very expensive). One of these room-mates worked in a bathhouse downtown, and he told me that over 80% of his clientele were "straight" married guys. He got religious people like priests, baptist ministers, etc. He also got anti-gay activists (which makes you think), and a LOT of guys from way out in the hinterlands. The most came from the suburbs, but if you look at where Portland, OR is on a map, there is no gay life for hundreds of miles in any direction (other than a few lack-luster bars in Salem, Boise, Eugene, Bend, and Corvalis) so I guess this makes sense.

When Rob & I voluteered for CAP, these guys were called MSMs, or Men who Sleep with Men. That way they aren't labeled "Gay"...

[Marco_ukmus]

flexicon1 - Sounds like your getting very buff man! Love hearing your little experiecnes! very cool! and just think, these experiences will only get worse and more intense... believe me! Yeah, I do recommend trying worship some time, its great fun!

Thanks for sharing! and keep growing!

Marc

[mustardman]

Reading all these posts (yes, ALL of them) has jogged my memory to my first worship session. I'm in my late 40's now and suffer from CRS syndrome (Can't Remember Shit) A few years ago, I met this guy online who lived about 300 miles away, had two grown kids, was recently divorced and now wanted to "do something for myself." He was going to be traveling through Houston one day, and I agreed to meet him at his hotel, which was very close to my office. Well, we started chatting, and I was quickly bored out of my skull. He was nice enough, but he just went on and on and on about how now was the time to "do something for myself." And the further truth is he wasn't very good looking and didn't have much of a body (not that there's anything WRONG with that!) so neither my brain nor my cock was very interested.

After a short while, I told him politely I needed to go, and he said, "Don't leave without showing me your chest!" Well, you don't have to ask me that twice, so I took off my shirt--actually, sport jacket, dress shirt and undershirt, so he got quite a show! When he saw my chest, he went NUTS. I mean he just freaked out, in a good way, and asked if he could touch my pecs. NO problem there, and he touched and grabbed away while I flexed and bounced my pecs for him. He then started touching and grabbing himself, and I'm sure you can guess the end of the story.

I'm not even sure I realized then that I'd just been worshipped! And until I started reading this thread, I hadn't thought about this scene for a long time. For the record, I'm 48, 6' and 175 lbs. Not a big muscle guy by any stretch of the imagination, but I'm lean, so what I've got can be easily seen--and I love to show it off