Straight Stories and content on this site

[The Magus]

I posted this in another forum, but since there are "no homo" discussions in other places, I thought I'd repost here for a wider discussion. The subtitle for this thread might as well be "Why Is The Magus Being An Asshole".

Okay, here's the thing: muscle growth fetishists, of any orientation, are a minority. So, I can understand and appreciate that it's hard for straight guys to find muscle growth stories for themselves, because they are, in that sense, a minority.

But gay men, or men who like sex with men, are already a minority. So those of us who like muscle growth are a minority within a minority. Assuming that muscle growth as a fetish is a stable percentage of the population, that means, mathematically, that for every gay man who likes muscle growth, there are 10-20 straight guys who like muscle growth.

If this site becomes a place where straight people can post their stories, and is recognised as such, it is likely that we will see a situation where for every m/m story posted, there are 10 m/f stories. So, instead of having ONE site where I can go and know that there will be stories for me, ONE site in the entire internet where I am NOT a minority-in-a-minority, I am back to zero sites.

How would you propose that there be a safe space for people like me to enjoy our fetish? I guess we should go out and build a new community? But wait, we did that. Here. But now we have discussions where "no homo" is acceptable (and I'm "crying" if I'm angry about that).

The thing is, it's not like I think straight people are intentionally crapping up the place, it's just that you guys are oblivious. As annoyed as you might be having to look for straight sites to accommodate your fetish, it is TEN TIMES harder for me to find sites for mine. So, why do straight guys get to be all butthurt, where I have to be the polite one?

If I try to work my way into half the straight sites out there, I'll get death threats. Even the most liberal and accepting bodybuilding or muscle growth sites dedicated to straight people cannot get through a day without someone making a fag joke. It's just a joke? Well, I've been beat up and I've had friends attacked with weapons and stabbed for being gay. My gay rugby team was mobbed minutes after a Pride Parade only a few years ago.

It's not the same as "well just ignore the stories you don't like", because there will soon be ONLY stories I don't like.

I act pissed off because I am pissed off, and being polite ONLY serves to make things more comfortable to the straight guys. I don't WANT you to be comfortable here. I -WANT- you to feel like maybe there's one place in the universe where heterosexual males have to watch their step and maybe not say the wrong thing because it isn't their place.

There was a nice, m4m community here, once. I'm not saying this community isn't nice anymore, but it isn't m4m. Not completely. And that trend isn't going to stabilize, it is going to get worse.

[schwermarko]

I am going to have to break my response to this into several segments, but don't worry. ONCE I HAVE COMPLETED MY RESPONSE I WILL GO AWAY AND YOU WONT HAVE TO HEAR FROM ME ANYMORE. I have taken the silence from the moderators on these posts as being consent to them, and have no future plans to continue participating based on what is or is not acceptable.

First off--

"How would you propose that there be a safe space for people like me to enjoy our fetish? I guess we should go out and build a new community? But wait, we did that. Here. But now we have discussions where "no homo" is acceptable (and I'm "crying" if I'm angry about that)."

Would the gay post, by the gay poster, of the very gay comic strip with the satirical title, "No Homo" been less offensive to you if this were explicitly a gay only site? I can totally understand argument between people as to weather or not that was appropriate, I didn't think it was but didn't think it was an appropriate role for me as a hetero to criticize in a discussion which has such import to gay self identity.

But of course you could just go crash a thread where a group of bi guys and strait guys are swapping fantasy ideas instead, because retribution is more fun.

[schwermarko]

In answer to the whole post, It is actually OK for you to say, "I want this to be gay only space." I would ask that the mods make that clear, because I've been trying to find FAQ's and posting rules that cover these things, and I haven't found them. I was afraid that I had missed that and had actually crashed someplace I didn't belong.

Part of the reason why I have been posting more is that people seemed to be open to my posts, and I had been getting positive feedback from people of all orientations, so I don't know if everyone agrees with you, but the lack of objection to what you have said leads me to believe that it is best that I go.

If of course you intend this to be a place where heteros are welcome to give you the opportunity to act out fantasies of a homosexual dominant, intolerant, culture; where you get payback for all the negative experiences you have had-- please know that I am not interested in playing that particular game, and I doubt there will be others willing to do so either.

[suma]

I don't like even reading these long posts that go into debates over one issue or another.

Here's a rule: No long post unless it's a mg story.

This forum should welcome gay & straight.
Take Kaz's art for instance. It's almost entirely hetero, altho I believe the artist himself is gay. But his art has a huge fan base. Who wants to see his artwork go? None of us.

[Bilderi]

I certainly am no expert and I am straight that once asked whether the community was open to male and female growth in a story and was discouraged. I didn't try to enforce anything and said attitude has less to do with me being straight than with my mentality and how i treat others around me. So while I can accept there's a possible scenario in which hetero stuff somehow grow to overwhelm other themes, I can hardly treat it a certainty, especially since I never tried to impose anything despite the fact that, in theory, it would be in my best interest to do so.

Anyone that takes the time to sift through my very few posts I made here over the years will not find me to be a threat to this community that, despite my different orientation, I've actually enjoyed.

But I do take issue with your reasoning Magus in a very particular point.

"So, instead of having ONE site where I can go and know that there will be stories for me, ONE site in the entire internet where I am NOT a minority-in-a-minority, I am back to zero sites."

Now I'm not trying to change anything or anyone but, seriously, this should not be, ever, finding yourself in a relative majority as it should be about being yourself, finding what you love and like, expressing yourself with no fear of judgement, prejudice and what have you, of any kind.

That being said, I'm not saying, as suma said, that this forum should welcome this or that. This forum can work the way the community wants it to work and I take it I don't have much say in it. I certainly won't be the one to define it.

But this attitude right here is outright wrong no matter where it's directed:

"I don't WANT you to be comfortable here. I -WANT- you to feel like maybe there's one place in the universe where heterosexual males have to watch their step and maybe not say the wrong thing because it isn't their place."

Take "heterosexual males" out, replace it with whatever comes to mind first and try to convince yourself this is what you'd like ANYONE to remember you by.

[The Magus]

Originally Posted by schwermarko

I am going to have to break my response to this into several segments, but don't worry. ONCE I HAVE COMPLETED MY RESPONSE I WILL GO AWAY AND YOU WONT HAVE TO HEAR FROM ME ANYMORE. I have taken the silence from the moderators on these posts as being consent to them, and have no future plans to continue participating based on what is or is not acceptable.

First off--

"How would you propose that there be a safe space for people like me to enjoy our fetish? I guess we should go out and build a new community? But wait, we did that. Here. But now we have discussions where "no homo" is acceptable (and I'm "crying" if I'm angry about that)."

Would the gay post, by the gay poster, of the very gay comic strip with the satirical title, "No Homo" been less offensive to you if this were explicitly a gay only site? I can totally understand argument between people as to weather or not that was appropriate, I didn't think it was but didn't think it was an appropriate role for me as a hetero to criticize in a discussion which has such import to gay self identity.

But of course you could just go crash a thread where a group of bi guys and strait guys are swapping fantasy ideas instead, because retribution is more fun.

False equivalence here. Gay peoples' circumstance, and their being attacked and marginalized by the mainstream, versus straight peoples' - particularly straight men's - circumstances mean that there are different consequences to the same actions.

I don't care if a gay man wrote that comic and posted it: the "satire" in it plays up the difference in power between gay men and straight men in society. We aren't laughing "with" the gay community, we are laughing "at" a straight (or "straight") caricature who has forfeited his position in society by behaving like a "homo". The comic isn't funny because homophobia is bad, it's funny because the character is being a hypocrite in some way, he is claiming heterosexuality and behaving gay. Just because a gay man wrote it, and just because some gay people enjoyed it, doesn't mean it isn't homophobic. Just like there are women who fought against women's rights to vote, there are gay people who sacrifice the greater good to be accepted by the mainstream.

As far as crashing goes, I apologized for my entry into the subject, and I've started this thread -here- so that an important conversation can happen -here-. And it's clear that a discussion needs to happen, because there is fucking obnoxious material all over these boards, and I'm getting sick of playing "social justice bingo".

[The Magus]

Originally Posted by schwermarko

In answer to the whole post, It is actually OK for you to say, "I want this to be gay only space." I would ask that the mods make that clear, because I've been trying to find FAQ's and posting rules that cover these things, and I haven't found them. I was afraid that I had missed that and had actually crashed someplace I didn't belong.

Part of the reason why I have been posting more is that people seemed to be open to my posts, and I had been getting positive feedback from people of all orientations, so I don't know if everyone agrees with you, but the lack of objection to what you have said leads me to believe that it is best that I go.

If of course you intend this to be a place where heteros are welcome to give you the opportunity to act out fantasies of a homosexual dominant, intolerant, culture; where you get payback for all the negative experiences you have had-- please know that I am not interested in playing that particular game, and I doubt there will be others willing to do so either.

Next time I walk into a bar full of rugby players and make an inappropriate comment about my homosexuality and have to be protected by my own club from 30 small-town hicks about to have some fun, I'll remember to remind them that no one ever told me that it was a "heterosexuals only" club.\

You are not entitled to be told when you are being inappropriate.

And thanks for trying to minimize my concerns as some play fantasy. You are an awesome specimen of heterosexuality you are. Please, please continue your quiet and polite invasion of this space.

[The Magus]

Originally Posted by Bilderi

But this attitude right here is outright wrong no matter where it's directed:

"I don't WANT you to be comfortable here. I -WANT- you to feel like maybe there's one place in the universe where heterosexual males have to watch their step and maybe not say the wrong thing because it isn't their place."

Take "heterosexual males" out, replace it with whatever comes to mind first and try to convince yourself this is what you'd like ANYONE to remember you by.

Pardon me but, fuck you.


This is a false equivalence. Heterosexual males do not experience prejudice on the level or scale of any other single fucking demographic group. You want to look at just about any hate crime in history and not a single one was committed because the victim was a heterosexual male.

If all things were equal, then I would be a horrible person to have that sentiment. But all things are not equal, and by pretending they are makes you an asshole.

Now I'm not trying to change anything or anyone but, seriously, this should not be, ever, finding yourself in a relative majority as it should be about being yourself, finding what you love and like, expressing yourself with no fear of judgement, prejudice and what have you, of any kind.

Well, I am expressing myself. I do fear judgement and prejudice, but I'm expressing myself anyway. Because this is important to me.

And, if someone lives as a minority long enough, sometimes NOT being a minority is kind of nice. It's kind of refreshing. It kind of makes me feel good.

[Bilderi]

I didn't refer to any kind of particular equivalence for it to be false or not. I let you fill in the blank any way you might like. So you kind of created whichever false equivalence you're swearing at me about.

Plus you're not saying how thinking like that about anyone might actually be fine in any way.

And not being in a minority might feel good to you, but you're still not making a case about how being in a majority is automatically a good/fulfilling thing, in principle. Belonging I get. Longing to be part of the bigger lot is like trying to choose some kind of winning side in a fight that no one wants to start.

Of course keep expressing yourself. Your fear of judgement and prejudice isn't really my fault though. Hope you get over the fear eventually. If not being a minority feels refreshing, you're in for a treat once fear goes away. Minority or not.

[schwermarko]

Originally Posted by The Magus

You are not entitled to be told when you are being inappropriate.

And thanks for trying to minimize my concerns as some play fantasy. You are an awesome specimen of heterosexuality you are. Please, please continue your quiet and polite invasion of this space.

Yes, I am entitled to politely ask if something is inappropriate, and get a polite answer.

I'm not minimizing your concerns, I'm pointing out the pathology of your ideas, and setting a boundary. It is a sick fantasy to think I'm going to come and dole out advice on cycles, (which you seemed to like and encourage) and then take shit from you about being straight. (and please pardon my variant spelling,)

And I am asking the question and expecting an answer from more than just your sorry ass about whether or not my presence her IS an invasion.

[schwermarko]

I did remember that this came up at some point in the past as well, I had a different handle then but I remember this discussion from 10 YEARS AGO!

http://www.musclegrowth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=2208

So, the concern that the hetero materials would just inundate the site didn't seem to materialize the first time. But who knows, maybe this will be the decade? Although there was discussion about kicking the heteros and bi's (oh ya, remember this isn't a binary deal) off the boards, it didn't happen.

If somebody who doesn't have an obvious chip on their shoulder indicates that i should leave, I would be more than happy to. Please put something up on the board that says it's for gays only! If somebody really wanted to be cool and give a little bit of advice about what was done to set this up so I could set up an inclusive one, that also would be cool.

[schwermarko]

Magus, why are you busting our chops about this thread and then thanking one of the hetero posters for a story about being groped in the pecs by a pair of women in the real life- when others notice- thread?

[Reeza]

Originally Posted by schwermarko

And I am asking the question and expecting an answer from more than just your sorry ass about whether or not my presence her IS an invasion.

I'm gay. I love this forum. I don't mind that you're here.

I think any straight guy who is willing to wade through all of our ass penetrating, dick sucking, cum swallowing imagery to find the muscle growth stuff that he likes is probably not my enemy. I'm glad we have that and our humanity in common. Maybe even a few other things.

The only thing I would object to would be if you were complaining that this site is too gay. When someone asks why there aren't more hetero stories, etc., it kinda sounds like that's what is being said - "It's a little too gay around here."

Your posts make it clear that you are feeling rejected, ostracized, and/or hated by some of the people here who don't even know you. It hurts, doesn't it? If you can imagine what it would feel like to experience that, starting in childhood and lasting forever, in the entire world, then you might begin to understand why The Magus is so angry and wants you to leave.

I feel what The Magus is saying even though I haven't had all the terrible experiences he's had. It's exhausting to be on guard all the time, knowing that people hate us and sometimes want to kill us because of something that we were born to be. We need places of refuge to get some rest once in a while.

If you want to be here, tread softly and use it as an opportunity to understand how we experience the larger world. If you encounter hostility, remember that we deal with that every fucking day of our lives in one way or another, even though we screen out as much of it as we can.

And if I could ask a favor, maybe when you're on one of those other sites frequented by straight guys, when you see them making fag jokes, could you ask them to stop? I would be interested to know what kind of response you get.

[Aielyn]

Originally Posted by The Magus

This is a false equivalence. Heterosexual males do not experience prejudice on the level or scale of any other single fucking demographic group. You want to look at just about any hate crime in history and not a single one was committed because the victim was a heterosexual male.

If all things were equal, then I would be a horrible person to have that sentiment. But all things are not equal, and by pretending they are makes you an asshole.

Prejudice is prejudice, it doesn't matter whether you're majority or minority. If you want to feel superior, go elsewhere. This isn't a gay superiority forum, it's a male muscle growth forum.

You are NO BETTER than those idiots that you have said attacked you and your group. You are trying to force your sexual orientation upon other people within a community, just as they are. And the fact that in America gays are treated so poorly is NOT justification for trying to do the same thing to straight members here.

The fact that there is "straight dominance" or "straight privilege" within America does not excuse your attitude, let alone justify it.

[schwermarko]

Hey Reeza-- Peace and long life, fellow human.

I appreciated your post, because you pretty much nailed why I come here and my approach to the whole thing.

And I always answer the question, "Why aren't there more X here" with because you haven't gone out and written or made more of them! And I am a huge fan of morphs, the fiction is secondary to me, but I have become more into it. It was when I read Myophile's "Pincushion" that I really started to get it.

And yes, I have a lot in common with a lot of people here including The Magus about what excites me and what doesn't, which was why I was quite so offended when he then turned on me for invading his sanctuary after having thanked me for other posts.

I am not going to pretend that I have any idea what it's like to be gay. I know that the Magus has been hurt, mentally and physically, that get compounded with the day to day discrimination that is there, and that I don't deny. I do give people a pretty wide berth. It's just that Dr Jeckel and Mr. Jackass crossed it some ways back in the discussion. Constantly claiming that I don't think discrimination is real just because I don't let him have his way is probably where I lost it.

And I also have the distinct pleasure of not being a body builder but rather a power-lifter, so I have to deal with less B.S. in general, and I haven't seen a lot of "Fag Jokes" but most of our discussions are about drugs, lifiting gear, and totals (which is all in numbers anyway), but I will try that experiment. As a general rule the one problem is when people get offered money to be touched or to pick people up in the air, or to beat people up, which happens to someone around my gym about once or twice a month, mostly over facebook. Even then most of the response is just being mystified as to why anyone would want that.

Oh that and trying to figure out how long it will take between someone posting a pick of one of us on facebook, and that picture being part of a bear porn collection. I will actually admit that I am waiting for that to happen to me for the first time, I think it would be a compliment, and a pretty good indicator that I have more or less arrived as a big dude. Sorry I am rambling now.. I need sleep

[The Magus]

For the record, I don't fucking want anyone to leave. I'd just appreciate that people remember where the fuck they are before they start treating this place like their own fucking locker room. And I would like some people to leave, but that's not something I've said here, is it, Mr "I'll waste time looking up old 'thanks' that The Magus gave someone for completely unrelated reasons".


I'm still pissed off, even after a night of sleep, so I'm going to leave this alone for now, but a couple of bullet points:

*the fact that this subject comes up over and over again doesn't invalidate anything I've said. I get the flu vaccine every year, and hey, I don't get the flu. I guess the vaccine's useless, huh? Or, maybe, the fact that people get fed up enough to bring this subject up every now and then is the very reason why the site hasn't been overrun yet.

*I'll thank any damn post any time I please for whatever reason I want. I'm gay, and I enjoy getting attention from women for my muscles - does that make me a hypocrite when I'm fucking my boyfriend?

*And Aielyn, when you say "prejudice is prejudice" do you have any idea how much of an asshole you are being? You are being a huge asshole. Get some knowledge in your brain about how prejudice actually works.

[Bilderi]

Originally Posted by The Magus

For the record, I don't fucking want anyone to leave. I'd just appreciate that people remember where the fuck they are before they start treating this place like their own fucking locker room. And I would like some people to leave, but that's not something I've said here, is it, Mr "I'll waste time looking up old 'thanks' that The Magus gave someone for completely unrelated reasons".


I'm still pissed off, even after a night of sleep, so I'm going to leave this alone for now, but a couple of bullet points:

*the fact that this subject comes up over and over again doesn't invalidate anything I've said. I get the flu vaccine every year, and hey, I don't get the flu. I guess the vaccine's useless, huh? Or, maybe, the fact that people get fed up enough to bring this subject up every now and then is the very reason why the site hasn't been overrun yet.

*I'll thank any damn post any time I please for whatever reason I want. I'm gay, and I enjoy getting attention from women for my muscles - does that make me a hypocrite when I'm fucking my boyfriend?

*And Aielyn, when you say "prejudice is prejudice" do you have any idea how much of an asshole you are being? You are being a huge asshole. Get some knowledge in your brain about how prejudice actually works.

So it kind of goes like this:

1st sentence: you don't want anyone to leave
3rd sentence: you'd like some to leave but you haven't said it so it doesn't count

[The Magus]

Wow. You can read for comprehension! Now try that with all the other sentences I've written. Take your time, I know it's not your strong suit.

[Bilderi]

Originally Posted by The Magus

Wow. You can read for comprehension! Now try that with all the other sentences I've written. Take your time, I know it's not your strong suit.

As if you were ever going to address your own leaps in logic. Look at the bright side though. Most can't. So you're in a majority. Enjoy.

[Aielyn]

Originally Posted by The Magus

*And Aielyn, when you say "prejudice is prejudice" do you have any idea how much of an asshole you are being? You are being a huge asshole. Get some knowledge in your brain about how prejudice actually works.

Such irony, that the person saying "we shouldn't be discriminating against anybody" is being shouted down as an "asshole" by the guy who is actively calling for discrimination.

How does prejudice work? It's where you have a preconceived notion of what people should be like. You know, like assuming that straight people will flood onto a site for no particular reason and try to de-gay (for lack of a better term) the site, and thus calling for active discrimination against straight people despite the fact that, other than being straight, there's no real difference.

What would you call it?

You, sir, are the "asshole" - you're the one who jumped into a thread about someone benignly asking what people might want in a straight muscle story in order to rant against straight people encroaching, somehow, on your right to a straight-free muscle growth story experience, and then claimed special privilege on the basis that there is some sort of "straight privilege" in the society you live in (and you have no idea what my society is like, or anything about me, so you can't comment on my situation), and thus you have every right to enforce your sexual orientation on this forum.

You have NO right to be angry in this situation. YOU are the bigoted, "heterophobic", and downright rude person in the discussion. You're the one who, in a context where the "tables are turned", are playing exactly the role of the homophobic dickheads that you complain about. What you are asking for isn't equality, but superiority, and I have a problem with that. I have just as much right to be here, and just as much right to contribute any story I write within the rules of the site (meaning, male muscle growth being the primary part of the story). You have NO right to impose your sexual orientation on me.

If you want a forum where you get to be gay without having to put up with straight people at all, go to one of the many, many gay-specific websites out there. This is not a gay-specific website. This website caters to all sexual orientations, and if you don't like that, then YOU can get lost.

EDIT: Oh, and if you truly want a place where straight people are here, but are forced to feel inferior, then you have a real psychological problem, and need to get help.

[schwermarko]

As loathe as I am to rush to the side of someone who compared me to influenza a few posts ago, There is a point that needs to be made.

There isn't actually even any sort of slur or epithet that someone could use to describe me that is offensive. I sit in the most culturally well defended place in the western social hierarchy. I think that there needs to be a very strong and active voice against perpetuating homophobic behavior AND VOCABULARY on the site. I do not think it is appropriate that we have a thread in one of the sections with the label, "No Homo," and I don't think is is excusable. I don't have the capacity to remove threads, if I did, that one would be gone.

Unfortunately I'm not wild about the response that was taken. It would be an appropriate use of that anger to directly address the poster, thread, and post where that was put up.

I want people of all orientations to get something out of the things that I post here, my only story thus far has no sex. I put a lot into the steroids section, also pretty universal.

And yes the site periodically gets overrun, and needs a readjustment of it's focus. There is so much m4m material here and M4m sexuality is discussed so openly that people assume that this must be a gay only site, and that the straight people must have crashed the party. Then someone has to dig up the old thread I listed above to show that that isn't the case, and pull out the post from the guy that founded, and pays for all our fun, that says that the point is male muscle growth and that sex of any kind must be a secondary element.

Unfortunately the reality of the situation is that it is a pretty logical conclusion to think that a site MUST be gay only if gays are able to speak freely about their sexuality, because everywhere else they go in real life or the net, they get hate speech. I've been here in one form or another for about 15 years, and I think that we as a general rule do pretty well at that, but that does require effort, and sometimes that requires someone to pop-off and speak their mind! And that means that we will have to go beyond the schoolyard, tit-for-tat kind of "fair" if we are going to have real engagement of all involved parties.

So, Magus-- No, It actually makes me quite happy that you read things I write, get revved up, and go pound your BF till he's begging for mercy! I would like to get back to that particular arrangement. I am also going to be supportive of you because you are putting in the effort and taking the risks to make your fantasy and your reality meld, as am I. We share something in common that can actually get us both thrown into PRISON, (I know Canadian law is a touch different, but not that much!) So please don't turn on me every time you get angry.

[The Magus]

I reserve the right to be angry, and to react angrily when I feel threatened or offended. As offended as some people are by what I've said, I guarantee you that others - who are not in a position to speak out as I have - are more offended by some of the privileged and ignorant attitudes shown by others here.

If my words seem harsh to you, read Reeza's post for a watered-down but essentially accurate idea of what this is all about.

Homophobia is complex, and sometimes you have to spend a long time with it to understand many of its manifestations.

I've actually said, with words, that people can read, in this thread, that I don't think most of the straight guys here are intentionally being assholes. The crappy thing about the world we live in is that sometimes, just by being the straight guy in the room, you are making life harder for everyone else. You aren't trying to, you don't want to, but you are.

What you don't understand is that everytime someone who is upset at feeling marginalized decides to be polite, NO ONE LISTENS.

One of the things I've done here is to draw attention to the fact that sometimes accommodation and tolerance have to go more than one way. Every post with "No homo", every post about how great chicks are, every erotic story where the main character ends up with a wife and kids (like, seriously: the happy ending is where a guy gets a wife and kids when in many states in the US and lots of places in the world two guys can't even hold hands? You know that those stories are rubbing salt into a very, very raw wound, right?)....we are putting up with you.

Some gay men don't care. Some care a bit but don't agree with how I am saying things. But there are guys out there who feel every bit as put-out and let-down as I do, but know what the consequences are of speaking their mind.

I've used very strong and offensive language in these two threads, but read carefully. If you think what I am saying is bullying, then you are wrong. These are the words of someone who has been bullied and sees all the warning signs of bullying happening again. This is the language of someone on the defensive, but no matter HOW someone says something, WHAT they say is more important.

This is as civil as I can be on this topic. I'm not apologizing, for anything. If someone is hurt from the words I've used, REALLY hurt, then they have led a very sheltered life. Because where I come from, what I've seen, the language I am using here is -nothing-. And I'm a lucky guy, because there are men who are dead now for saying and doing less.

[The Magus]

Oh, and PS, "heterophobia" is not a thing.

If you think it is, you ARE an asshole.

[Bilderi]

I reserve the right to be angry, and to react angrily when I feel threatened or offended. As offended as some people are by what I've said, I guarantee you that others - who are not in a position to speak out as I have - are more offended by some of the privileged and ignorant attitudes shown by others here.

You assume too much and generalise too much without enough knowledge about the background of whomever you're interacted here with. No one really did that to you, points were made, you didn't care enough to comment on them. Which goes against the notion that WHAT one says matters more to you.

If my words seem harsh to you, read Reeza's post for a watered-down but essentially accurate idea of what this is all about.

The fact that you have to point in the direction of another post that no one spoke ill off to explain the gist of your thoughts is a fine sign you could have done a more decent job in the first place, trying to get things across well enough.

Homophobia is complex, and sometimes you have to spend a long time with it to understand many of its manifestations.

True. The same is true for lots of stuff. For example. Where I live, regardless of one's own thoughts, acting weird over someone being gay, fat, sick or whatever of the sort used to, never was or never will be a matter of contention is morally unacceptable. Yet ridiculing my taste IS acceptable. Now I don't feel offended as I get that every community is "trained" in some thing and not in others. I'm not trying to say I've got it tough. I don't. I just highlight the simple fact that where I live things are a little bit different and the same can be said for lots of places. Not every part of the world is the same. And it's better for it.

I've actually said, with words, that people can read, in this thread, that I don't think most of the straight guys here are intentionally being assholes. The crappy thing about the world we live in is that sometimes, just by being the straight guy in the room, you are making life harder for everyone else. You aren't trying to, you don't want to, but you are.

Now this I can understand as well. I don't agree with your treating it as a norm that is what it is and it's not going away (if you did you'd recognise the need to first feel out one's intentions first and then proceed as you see fit, depending on the situation) but it still makes sense. The sad thing for me is that you automatically assume I can't see the sense in this because you heard I'm straight. It's sad not because I might feel offended (no chance of that happening that easily) but because this kind of thinking can stifle ANY discussions, heated or not.

What you don't understand is that everytime someone who is upset at feeling marginalized decides to be polite, NO ONE LISTENS.

This is also true. That straight people don't/can't/won't get it is a figment of your imagination. Some do. Others don't. Same with everything else. Still what you say IS true. This does not free you of the obligation to first try the civil way and then escalate things if it all fails. If I went about lighting a fuse like that based on past experiences alone, I could have single handedly started a war last year. Literally. But that's another story altogether.

One of the things I've done here is to draw attention to the fact that sometimes accommodation and tolerance have to go more than one way. Every post with "No homo", every post about how great chicks are, every erotic story where the main character ends up with a wife and kids (like, seriously: the happy ending is where a guy gets a wife and kids when in many states in the US and lots of places in the world two guys can't even hold hands? You know that those stories are rubbing salt into a very, very raw wound, right?)....we are putting up with you.

Again I get that. Essentially not being allowed to enjoy something so basic while loads of other can WILL rub you the wrong way. But I don't agree with the attitude. Do you actually have to resent someone for wanting a wife and kids or just writing about it just because, in real life, where you are, SOMEONE ELSE won't let you do what you yearn to do? Getting pissed on those that stand in your way makes sense. Being pissed at those that CAN get what they want won't help you much.

Some gay men don't care. Some care a bit but don't agree with how I am saying things. But there are guys out there who feel every bit as put-out and let-down as I do, but know what the consequences are of speaking their mind.

Again true as with any other thing in life. Some care, some care one way, others some other way and not all go about it the same way. Wanting to change things so consequences you speak of have no place is fine. I'm with you. Going apeshit on others because you feel let-down is different. There are whole nations that barely escaped genocide (more than most think). Are they more or less let-down than you? And how do they go about things?

I've used very strong and offensive language in these two threads, but read carefully. If you think what I am saying is bullying, then you are wrong. These are the words of someone who has been bullied and sees all the warning signs of bullying happening again. This is the language of someone on the defensive, but no matter HOW someone says something, WHAT they say is more important.

Not it's not bullying, especially since no one really feels bullied. But the whole thing about the "HOW" and the "WHAT" is just a lie. You've contradicted yourself within the same post, you avoided commenting on things like the owner's own view on the whole matter, among other things, and you went the "if you think this thing, you're an asshole" which does not an argument make.

This is as civil as I can be on this topic. I'm not apologizing, for anything. If someone is hurt from the words I've used, REALLY hurt, then they have led a very sheltered life. Because where I come from, what I've seen, the language I am using here is -nothing-. And I'm a lucky guy, because there are men who are dead now for saying and doing less.

Well you've made it clear enough you can't be more civil than this. And it's obvious you've been through things that no one should. I don't know what exactly but you don't know what others might have gone through either. And since writing always provides a great opportunity to put some extra thought in how you express yourself about anything, I suggest you do that. And if others can't do the same, you're obviously free to change up tactics.

Before going about this as if I'm referring to some gay/bi/straight divide or anything, no, I'm not. It's all about mentality. As with anything in life.

But kudos to you for making me go point by point, something I haven't done in a forum since 2002.

Oh and "heterophobia" is a non-issue in all seriousness but, apparently, it is a thing. Just like "biphobia". You forced me to look up phobias, established or debated, and they actually came up, to my surprise (I'm not being sarcastic). Apparently there seems to be any kind of phobia one can think of.

[tekuno]

The Magus and I haven't always seen eye-to-eye, but he's right on this one.

Aielyn, you do in fact have privilege as a straight male. Society is constructed to make your life easier. (In fact, if you're a straight white male living in the west, your life is at the lowest difficulty setting. Yes, it is, even if you think that's not accurate.)

Here are some questions to think about:

• Is there a single place on earth where, if people find out you are straight, they will kill you? (Sure are for gay people. Large portions of the U.S., if they think they can get away with it, just for a start, and that's not even going into places where it's actively encouraged by the law.)
• Is it legal to fire you for being straight? (A majority of U.S. states say it's legal to fire someone for being gay.)
• Do you ever have to tell people that you're straight, because they've assumed the opposite by default? And do you have to worry that they will hate you -- or even attack you -- if you do? (The answer is "yes" to both for gay people.)
• Did you, or anyone you've ever met, get kicked out of your house by your parents because you were straight? (Again, "yes" for gay people.)
• Can you even name a children's movie where the male lead had any sort of relationship but didn't have the same sexual orientation as you?
• Have you ever had anyone ask you whether it was all right to use an offensive term to refer to straight people "if they didn't mean any harm"?

(That being said, the group which probably has the hardest time is trans people. I've met a few gay people who grew up happy and healthy and without any significant trauma, but I've never met, or even heard of, a trans person who didn't have a childhood absolutely filled with turbulence and random hatred.)

In all sorts of ways, both major and minor, society is built to reassure you, to make your life easier, and to tell you that everything about you is normal -- and, by inference, anyone who isn't like you is abnormal. (And, incidentally, it doesn't matter whether you mean to be offensive. Even people who think they're being even-handed, who are theoretically "professional", will display bias in practice.)

So, this being the case, what did you do? You came to one of the few places where your sexual orientation isn't actively accommodated, and got upset when people weren't willing to change things to accommodate it. That makes you an asshole. Regardless of whether The Magus is being an asshole as well (I can kind of see how you could make this assertion*), you definitely are one. And trying to argue that you aren't an asshole because this site doesn't have flashing lights and warning dialogs on it saying "THIS SITE IS FOR GAY PORN" doesn't fool anyone, it just makes you a more annoying and hurtful asshole. Instead of throwing a tantrum and whining "Tu quoque! Tu quoque!", how about you just shut up and maybe think about how not to be an asshole? No argument on the Internet has ever been ended by people arguing; these things only ever end when one side or the other stops talking, and since you're being a privileged asshole, you should probably be the one to do that, right? (Same goes for you, Bilderi.) Here's a hint: Schwermarko is managing not to be offensive, and yet is hetero. Maybe you should take a look at his posts and see if you can figure out why that is?

*That is, if you haven't seen the recent thread over in the "Morphs and Artwork" section which actually says "No Homo" in the thread title. Even though that was meant as a joke, that's... well, when unprivileged groups start internalizing it all, it's depressing and infuriating, and the fact that the joke was done poorly enough that several people didn't realize it was intended as satire didn't help one little bit. If you start there, The Magus' reaction seems not merely reasonable but inevitable.

[Bilderi]

I'm not sure if you're saying that arguments should stop no matter what, but I do like a good argument. A good argument is a constructive one, not some kind of fight that leads to a clear win or a clear loss. It just leads to SOME kind of progress.

I've actively defended gay people in public and I plan to keep doing it since I can't really find a reason not to. It's easy to prove but I won't bother since overall attitude suggests it won't really matter anyway.

Since you think I'm an asshole, it couldn't even be true, right?

[The Magus]

Originally Posted by tekuno

(And, incidentally, it doesn't matter whether you mean to be offensive. Even people who think they're being even-handed, who are theoretically "professional", will display bias in practice.)

This sentence relates directly to what you just said. It is possible for an individual to do good things AND bad things. Sometimes in the same day. I'm not going to applaud you for "actively defending gay people in public" - since that's something everyone should be doing anyway - but the fact that you did some good things some of the time doesn't necessarily erase any potential harm that you might cause.

I will add right now that sometimes debate is more harmful to one side than to another. While homophobia, fear of losing safe spaces, feeling excluded, and all that other stuff may be intellectually stimulating to you, to others it is lived experience, and is not so easy to be calm about. Victims of violence and hatred already have enough on their plate to deal with without also being expected to manage their emotions and reactions just to accommodate you.

I took real risks by being angry in a public way here. It's possible that my standing in this community (such that it ever was) is weakened because of things I've said. There are elements to this that are extremely personal to me and to people I've known and cared about. Trust me, I'm aware that my approach to things won't ever make me the most popular person in the room.

It's not my responsibility to calmly explain every aspect of social justice and how it relates to homophobia and exclusion and privilege and this forum to you. Just like if someone steps on your foot, you say "Ow!" and they refuse to get off, you aren't the asshole for giving them a shove to get off your foot. Metaphorical feet were stepped on, I said "Ow", got shit for it, so I started shoving. If people step on my feet again, I'll do the same thing over again. It's not a debate, it's my fucking foot you've stepped on.

[Bilderi]

Keeping with the metaphor then, how on earth did I ever step on your foot?

And where have I displayed bias "in practice"?

And I'm not pushing for a debate as a kind of mental stimulation or exercise. That would need meeting in a cozy setting and keeping a bottle close by. It's far simpler than that. If there's an issue, there has to be some kind of solution, compromise and what have you. Debate eventually leads you there. And people, supposedly, yearn to solve problems/issues one way or another. If not just don't start the debate. You called for discussion. Not me.

As for the capacity of a person to do both good and bad, that's a given. I'm not waiting for applause. But am I seriously penalised here for potential harm I MIGHT cause? I've been called names trying to defend gay people and here I am being called names by gay people for...showing up?

Have I been touched by the Karma Troll or something?

[The Magus]

Not gonna hold your hand while you figure this out.

[Bilderi]

Karma Troll it is then.

[7thSugababe]

Originally Posted by Aielyn

Such irony, that the person saying "we shouldn't be discriminating against anybody" is being shouted down as an "asshole" by the guy who is actively calling for discrimination.

How does prejudice work? It's where you have a preconceived notion of what people should be like. You know, like assuming that straight people will flood onto a site for no particular reason and try to de-gay (for lack of a better term) the site, and thus calling for active discrimination against straight people despite the fact that, other than being straight, there's no real difference.

What would you call it?

You, sir, are the "asshole" - you're the one who jumped into a thread about someone benignly asking what people might want in a straight muscle story in order to rant against straight people encroaching, somehow, on your right to a straight-free muscle growth story experience, and then claimed special privilege on the basis that there is some sort of "straight privilege" in the society you live in (and you have no idea what my society is like, or anything about me, so you can't comment on my situation), and thus you have every right to enforce your sexual orientation on this forum.

You have NO right to be angry in this situation. YOU are the bigoted, "heterophobic", and downright rude person in the discussion. You're the one who, in a context where the "tables are turned", are playing exactly the role of the homophobic dickheads that you complain about. What you are asking for isn't equality, but superiority, and I have a problem with that. I have just as much right to be here, and just as much right to contribute any story I write within the rules of the site (meaning, male muscle growth being the primary part of the story). You have NO right to impose your sexual orientation on me.

If you want a forum where you get to be gay without having to put up with straight people at all, go to one of the many, many gay-specific websites out there. This is not a gay-specific website. This website caters to all sexual orientations, and if you don't like that, then YOU can get lost.

EDIT: Oh, and if you truly want a place where straight people are here, but are forced to feel inferior, then you have a real psychological problem, and need to get help.

I prefer to lurk but the straight privilege in this post is so strong that I'm compelled to say something

First off, "heterophobia" does not exist. And no one wants gay superiority, what you are seeing is a rejection of heterosexual superiority that distresses you because of the loss of your privilege. If this isn't understood, then you should back out because you'll never get what people are telling you

It is not bigotted in anyway to express a desire for a safe space for unprivileged people to have where they can feel a brief respite from the heterosexist society and its constant oppression. Fiction is the only place where gay people can craft their own homosexually dominated world and to want a world where you aren't vilified and attacked for who you are isn't a mental problem, its a valid expression of oppression

Straight people saying how offended they are and claiming the "tables are turning" and they are now oppressed is a laughable idea. If you want a straight safe space, go back into society and bask in the constant reinforcements that you are valued above all others. If you want to see straight men growing bigger and having women fawn over them, try turning your TV on and watching any number of soaps from around the world. Or why not watch any superhero movie?

And I think you'll find that it is opposite sex attracted people who are most commonly try to force their sexuality onto people. You see explicit requests in various forms of media for a character to switch to being gay because there are no examples of this in mainstream media. Almost literally none and when there are explicitly gay characters they are detoothed and desexualised to the point of negation

This is one of the few places where you can find a legitimately well-written gay love story (Reeza's The Gardener which it turns out is what I've been waiting my whole life for and want to start a tumblr fandom for). If you want a straight one, you can go to Waterstones and find row upon row of straight romance novels catering for everyone's different tastes. You could say "There are LGBT sections as well" and you might be right (though they are tiny if they exist) but look through the novels and you'll see all the gay male stories are written by straight women and are written through a heterosexual gaze

Now, if there is indeed a pressing need for heterosexual content on this website, then I support the idea of schwermarko in the other thread: There should be a marker at the start of the thread or in the title that there is or will be heterosexual content so it can be avoided if you find the idea of straight sex frankly exhausting

Or you can do what most gay people have to do with heterosexual litterature and "queer" the text, ie change the gender of one of the characters to fit your sexual preference. God knows that's the only way I can make it through hetero stories

Apologies, this has turned into a general rant on heterosexism and is a release of pent up frustration over the often forced heterosexualising of basically every gay outlet that has popped up online in the past decade. I'll go back to lurking now

[schwermarko]

I don't know how pressing the forum's original function (male muscle growth with sex of any type being a secondary element) is or if the owner does now or will ever change his mind to want this to become an exclusively gay site. Just be aware, that would be a change.

It is in my opinion clear that some noticeable accommodations need to be made for people who's sexuality is marginalized in the real world, so that they can feel safe to explore and be stimulated in a mixed environment.

To achieve that, clear labels are a help, the strict avoidance of slurs in posts an titles is a must.

Since I have confirmed that my posts up to this point are in line with the founders wishes as I see them in his posts, and I have been asked to stay by several members of 3 sexual orientations, I will try to bear in mind the expressed concerns in this thread and will use them to be more sensitive when I continue to post.

[manlion]

This site is about male muscle growth.

At one point in one of these conversations (not sure which, they blend together in my memory) someone mentioned that as a subset of gay culture, gay muscle growth fiction is X percentage, which means for the vastly larger hetero fiction world, there must be a larger hetero muscle growth body of work, in relative proportion to the gay/straight general fiction ratio.

Now, would you please tell me where that is?

For years, as a straight-dude-into-muscle growing up, I looked all over the vast internet for such a thing. Y'know what I found? This place. Metabods. A couple others, many of which have died in the years ongoing. All gay sites. Anything involving muscle growth outside of this tight-knight enclave is spotty, isolated, or even just wrong-gender-focused (too much fem-muscle). The straight male muscle growth fiction out there is barely a fraction of the size of the gay muscle growth community.

Now, personally, I have recently come into myself as a gay man, but there is a big part of myself that still self-identifies more as 'a straight man who likes muscle' than finding anything in common with most gay men I've seen or met. (A big part of my sexuality is still entangled with my self-image, which until recently, was a disabled, fat, white nerd. Still disabled, still white, but less fat, and much more muscular. My boyfriend of six months likes the new me.) I grew up in a largely-black neighborhood, in classes that were 90% black (and often with myself as the only white male) but in my own distinct way, outside of cultural biases, I was also a different minority, disabled, an amputee wearing a prosthetic, though barely anyone noticed. In those classes, especially as I got older, I was 'the white boy', made to suffer for the sins of countless others. How do you think I felt?

So while some of you see might this place as 'just for us gays', that's due to perceptions of population ratio, not the strict site imperative. You can't really tell the straight guys to shove off to their greener pastures, because there are none. There ISN'T a big straight male-muscle-growth community for them to go enjoy. We're the best thing they have, as far as I've seen.

Just because you've been hurt and excluded by people in the past, doesn't give you the right to hurt and exclude others when the table turns. Gays may be a minority in the world at large, but in their own way, straight men are a minority in the overall 'male muscle growth' community. They are a minority of a different factor, and, in your actions as a member of the majority of this community, you are acting not much better than the majority that spurned you.

Cycle of hatred, anger-begets-anger, all that stuff. We should be able to be better than that.

[The Magus]

I can't even do this.

Whatever.

Yup. We'll all live happily ever after, together. Because this is a fantasy site, and it's clear we have a fantasy utopia here where prejudice doesn't exist (except coming from me).

And it's so hard for straight guys to find a place to talk about muscle growth.

(https://www.google.ca/#q=muscle+websites OMG u guyz! billionz and billionz of websites where straight guys can talk about muscle growth!!!)

I love all of you, no homo.

I'm sorry that I forgot how hard life is for straight guys.

Completely turned around now.

Bye.

[whatizit]

Originally Posted by The Magus

I can't even do this.

Whatever.

Yup. We'll all live happily ever after, together. Because this is a fantasy site, and it's clear we have a fantasy utopia here where prejudice doesn't exist (except coming from me).

And it's so hard for straight guys to find a place to talk about muscle growth.

(https://www.google.ca/#q=muscle+websites OMG u guyz! billionz and billionz of websites where straight guys can talk about muscle growth!!!)

I love all of you, no homo.

I'm sorry that I forgot how hard life is for straight guys.

Completely turned around now.

Bye.

Now do a search for muscle growth fiction, instead of muscle websites. Those "billions of websites" you claim are primarily bodybuilding websites and forums, not erotic fiction websites. I think some members in these websites would be a little disgruntled if I started posting porn describing "delts like cannonballs" and "veins thick as pencils" while they are discussing their favorite protein powders!

If you do a proper search and take time to examine the results, I think you will find:

a) That any website that claims to be a muscle growth story repository that allows people to post stories at will are either gay or female muscle growth. I like fmg myself, but this discussion is about a straight alternative to the Evolution Forum - so we are looking specifically for straight male muscle growth story repositories, with or without female muscle growth. Other central repositories like CYOC cater for a much wider range of fetishes and are not an organized muscle growth community like the Evolution Forum.

b) Most of the results are separate blogs (tumblr and blogspot mostly) and deviantart sites. The majority of which are again either fmg, gay orientated or are sub-categories within a larger fetish e.g body swaps, male transformation. etc.. Now there are some straight male muscle growth deviantarts (a pretty small number though!) and small communities do tend to build up through the use of blogrolls and favorites lists but they are in no way equivalent to a single website with a centralized repository and community. It's also really difficult to set up a new blog from scratch and promote it to a disparate community. I know because I've been doing it recently, rudely dropping into male muscle growth and male transformation forums and posting "please look at my blog" threads. So telling people to leave the Evolution Forum and set up their own personal story blogs as an alternative is a bit bananas.

c) There are no online discussion forums devoted to straight male muscle growth erotica.

The Evolution Forum is the best-known male muscle growth erotica community on the internet and there have never been visible warnings on the website that this is a gay-only community. As a result of this a lot of straight people have joined this community. They realize quickly that the majority of stories contain gay sex but they adapt to this - skipping over the gay sex, using their imaginations to come up with straight sex scenarios, etc. and there are also plenty of stories on the forum that contain straight sex.

They stay here because male muscle growth fetish is not a mainstream fetish within the straight community (hell, even female muscle is considered by a lot of straight people to be really weird or really "gay" and that's a much more popular fetish) and it's much easier to work in the confines of The Evolution Forum than in large every-fetish-under-the-sun straight erotica repositories. Here you can talk to an entire forum of people who share your fetish, even if they are of a different sexual orientation. Isn't that a good thing?

Straight erotica is popular. Straight male muscle growth erotica really isn't. So don't lump the fetish into a "well straight people have loads of websites" scenario. There is no straight-only equivalent to the Evolution Forum.

[Aielyn]

[quote "E=The Magus;329891]Oh, and PS, "heterophobia" is not a thing.

If you think it is, you ARE an asshole.[/quote]

First of all, I didn't use the word "heterophobia", I said "heterophobic". And it was in quotes for a reason - because I was using it to emphasise the absurdity of your argument, not to be a literal word. That being said, I have no doubt that there are some gay people out there who are just as bigoted towards straight people as some straight people are towards gay people. Or do you deny this?

It is time for you to actually comprehend this. If you don't, you are the most bigoted person I know, and that's saying something. Your entire tirade in here has been about how, since you have been discriminated against by people near you, you have the right to discriminate against ME. You don't know me, at all. Yet you want to discriminate against me on the basis of sexual orientation. This makes you just as wrong as those neanderthals who caused problems for you and your friends locally.

Discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation is wrong, no matter which sexual orientation you are targeting. And you have NO right to try to enforce your sexual orientation on the rest of the members here, just as those homophobes had no right to try to enforce their sexual orientation on you.

The fact that YOU are the only person advocating discrimination should show you the problem, here. You have precisely the same attitudes that those homophobes have - the only difference is direction. You fear straight people destroying your freedom here, just as homophobes fear gay people encroaching on their rights (even though such encroachment is not happening). You feel threatened by straight people here in exactly the same way that homophobes feel threatened by gay people (again, for no reason).

Indeed, your insistence on it being different for you because of some greater circumstance perfectly mirrors the religious right's insistence that the existence of gay marriage violates their freedom of religion.

Tell me - does the fact that white people have some sort of "privilege" mean that black supremacist movements don't exist? Does the fact that muslims in America are persecuted to an extreme degree mean that muslims never persecute other Americans?

No, you are persecuting others because they're different from you, it's still persecution, prejudice, bigotry, etc, and is not acceptable, no matter whether it's pro-gay or pro-straight, pro-black or pro-white or pro-asian or pro-muslim or pro-christian or pro-jewish or pro-atheist or pro-satanist.

Please, try to point out to me a single instance on this forum of a straight person actually trying to discriminate against gay people. Have a go - you won't find any, because the people who come here are ALL minorities. We ALL are minorities, and every one of us has been persecuted against at one time or another. I've been persecuted against for being smart. I've been persecuted against for being an atheist. I've been persecuted against for the Jewish part of my ancestry (I'm Australian, by the way). Heck, I've been persecuted against for being male, once or twice. And now, you're persecuting against me for being straight.

YOU are the arsehole.

[Aielyn]

Originally Posted by tekuno

The Magus and I haven't always seen eye-to-eye, but he's right on this one.

Aielyn, you do in fact have privilege as a straight male. Society is constructed to make your life easier. (In fact, if you're a straight white male living in the west, your life is at the lowest difficulty setting. Yes, it is, even if you think that's not accurate.)

Here are some questions to think about:

• Is there a single place on earth where, if people find out you are straight, they will kill you? (Sure are for gay people. Large portions of the U.S., if they think they can get away with it, just for a start, and that's not even going into places where it's actively encouraged by the law.)
• Is it legal to fire you for being straight? (A majority of U.S. states say it's legal to fire someone for being gay.)
• Do you ever have to tell people that you're straight, because they've assumed the opposite by default? And do you have to worry that they will hate you -- or even attack you -- if you do? (The answer is "yes" to both for gay people.)
• Did you, or anyone you've ever met, get kicked out of your house by your parents because you were straight? (Again, "yes" for gay people.)
• Can you even name a children's movie where the male lead had any sort of relationship but didn't have the same sexual orientation as you?
• Have you ever had anyone ask you whether it was all right to use an offensive term to refer to straight people "if they didn't mean any harm"?

Tekuno, you have NO idea who I am, so you cannot possibly claim that I have an easy life. You don't know what properties I have that people might persecute me for. The high-and-mighty attitude of certain people here, as though being straight and male means I have an easy life are the height of arrogance, prejudice, and presumption, to an extreme level.

I live in Australia. Your list of questions do not apply here. You cannot kill people for being gay here. You cannot fire somebody for being gay here. Gay people are generally pretty well accepted in Australia. And yes, I have had to tell people that I'm straight before. I've not heard of a single example of a gay person being kicked out of home for being gay in Australia.

And by the way, there are straight slurs, too. Ever heard of the term "breeder"? They do exist. But the whole point, here, is that people don't use slurs here, in general. And the stuff that seems to have set this all off, that you have directly referenced in your post - the "no homo" thing, was a satire, apparently done by a gay guy, mocking the "no homo" thing itself.

Meanwhile, I'm a person who doesn't ever use "gay" for any reasons other than either "happy" or "homosexual", who never uses "homo" (beyond quotations, of course), and who has always followed a principle of true equality - to the point that, if someone I know (male or female) were to turn to me and say "you know, I'm gay", I'd go "Oh really? Well, I'm straight." - as a way to emphasise that it's an interesting fact, but nothing more than that. I have always treated gay vs straight as being roughly the equivalent of being attracted to fat women vs thin women - it's nothing more than the specifics of sexual attraction, and unless it's being directed at me, it doesn't affect me at all.

Meanwhile, I'm an atheist. And atheists are one of the most hated minorities in America. 68% of Americans would vote for a gay or lesbian presidential candidate. Only 54% of Americans would vote for an atheist presidential candidate (which is lower even than a muslim presidential candidate which would get 58% - this is in America, where anti-islamic sentiment is rife). Let me put that into perspective - more Americans are atheist than LGBT, but significantly fewer Americans would vote for an atheist. And judges will often deny custody of a child to an atheist parent, for no other reason than that they're an atheist.

And that's just in America. There are countries where atheists face death. Many countries in the EU have blasphemy laws that can basically result in prison terms for simply disagreeing with religion. Systemic discrimination against atheists is also common in many other countries. And yet, I don't go onto a, say, physics website, where you'd expect atheism to be much more prevalent, and tell christians that they have to sit down and shut up for no other reason than that they're christians.

For you see, discrimination is wrong, no matter what form it takes. And everybody experiences discrimination of one sort or another. The disgustingly arrogant assertion that gays should have the right to discriminate as they like because of some perceived "straight privilege" is as absurd as asserting that black people should be allowed to murder white people as much as they want because white people get away with murder more often (I am not asserting equivalence, I'm using reductio ad absurdum to make my point).

So to summarise, don't you DARE try to tell me that I have an easy life, on the basis of your total knowledge of me as "straight and male". Things are NOT that simple.

[Aielyn]

Originally Posted by 7thSugababe

I prefer to lurk but the straight privilege in this post is so strong that I'm compelled to say something

First off, "heterophobia" does not exist. And no one wants gay superiority, what you are seeing is a rejection of heterosexual superiority that distresses you because of the loss of your privilege. If this isn't understood, then you should back out because you'll never get what people are telling you

It is not bigotted in anyway to express a desire for a safe space for unprivileged people to have where they can feel a brief respite from the heterosexist society and its constant oppression. Fiction is the only place where gay people can craft their own homosexually dominated world and to want a world where you aren't vilified and attacked for who you are isn't a mental problem, its a valid expression of oppression

OK, once again, your perceived "straight privilege" is not necessarily true where I live, so don't make assumptions. Beyond that, the term "X privilege" is designed as a way to basically ad hominem against people who simply assert that equality is right - "male privilege", for instance, is often used to shout down people who say that women can choose to either want equality or special treatment, not both.

And did you not see the quotation marks around "heterophobia"? I used that term for rhetorical purposes, hence the quotation marks. The whole point of the word was to draw the symmetry with the homophobia that The Magus had referred to. That you focused on the word, rather than the argument being put forward around it, demonstrates the problem, here. And by the way, homophobes typically challenge the term, saying that they're not really homophobes, that homophobia doesn't exist, etc. So this is just more symmetry, really.

The Magus has every right to go to a forum where he can feel safe. The thing is, this is a muscle growth forum, not a gay forum. If he honestly feels that this place is somehow antagonistic towards his homosexuality, then he should go to a gay-specific website.

"It is not bigotted in anyway to express a desire for a safe space for black people to have where they can feel a brief respite from the white society and its constant oppression." - would this be an acceptable demand? Would this not be considered blatantly racist? Is it OK for black people to persecute against white people in a black-majority neighbourhood, just because white people persecute black people in other neighbourhoods?

"Fiction is the only place where gay people can craft their own homosexually dominated world and to want a world where you aren't vilified and attacked for who you are isn't a mental problem, its a valid expression of oppression" - he, and anyone else, has every right to write a fictional piece about a homosexually dominated world. And I would have no qualms about that. However, this is not fiction, this is real life. And in real life, we should not be permitting ANY sexual orientation, race, gender, etc to dominate and persecute.

Here's something for YOU to think about. I'm a straight guy who never uses slurs against anybody. And while The Magus hasn't actually used a slur word, he has slurred not just me, but every straight person in the world, by implying that we are all the same, wanting to dominate, persecute, and beat down gay people. I find that offensive - and for The Magus to claim offense for being called out for making that broad implication is the height of hypocrisy. I'd raise the "how would you feel if the situation were reversed right now, and it was a regular site with people saying that gay people should sit down and shut up", but apparently doing so is enforcing "straight privilege".

[schwermarko]

I am going to have to disagree. The point here is not to be fair, this isn't civics class, it's an erotic site. The poorly chosen satire and subtitle and NOT so subtitle slurs are being a cock-block for guys like Magus, and probably a lot of others who don't even feel comfortable saying this over the internet, let alone in person.

So, as odd as this may sound, since were all in here mutually sharing sexual fantasies can we actually muster a little concern for how eachother feel. We have actually managed to get the strait story thread back on to it's function of revving people up, but there is still a thread with a slur in the title every time I go to the morph thread. I know that's my favorite part, it would bother me a lot if someone put something in there that was a joke about something that caused me pain. There is something cock blocking the Magus in his favorite outlet, I bet he's frustrated and angry, I would be too.

Yes, I know the offensive post was put up by someone gay, Al Joelson made a career singing "Mammy" and eating watermelons in blackface, that doesn't mean that any of those things aren't racist. We need to move past fair and not fair to understand that oppression has cultural, and even internalized elements.

There are a lot of places that do better at combating institutionalized discrimination, that is done by making things legally fair. To get the culture and the individuals to heal is going to take more than that.

[7thSugababe]

Originally Posted by Aielyn

OK, once again, your perceived "straight privilege" is not necessarily true where I live, so don't make assumptions. Beyond that, the term "X privilege" is designed as a way to basically ad hominem against people who simply assert that equality is right - "male privilege", for instance, is often used to shout down people who say that women can choose to either want equality or special treatment, not both.

And did you not see the quotation marks around "heterophobia"? I used that term for rhetorical purposes, hence the quotation marks. The whole point of the word was to draw the symmetry with the homophobia that The Magus had referred to. That you focused on the word, rather than the argument being put forward around it, demonstrates the problem, here. And by the way, homophobes typically challenge the term, saying that they're not really homophobes, that homophobia doesn't exist, etc. So this is just more symmetry, really.

I really struggle to think of a single place on Earth where there is any straight oppression. Some small area of Sydney? Parts of San Francisco or West Hollywood? But okay I'll focus on your argument: It doesn't hold any water. Homophobia is institutionalised, homophobic behaviour is a constant. Go turn your TV on, watch a comedy, and make a little mark on a piece of paper everytime someone makes a "lol boys together" comment, or everyone goes "awkward, those men looked at each other". Then count them all up and imagine every single one of them is a stab in your heart and a reminder that people are mocking you. When this happens to straight people 24/7, when idealised straight imagery isn't plastered on every billboard, when there are no mainstream movies involving straight relationships, then and only then are you allowed to make any symmetry between homophobia and "heterophobia". What you're perceiving on this site is a meer glimpse through a keyhole at what gay people experience every day of their lives

Originally Posted by Aielyn

"It is not bigotted in anyway to express a desire for a safe space for black people to have where they can feel a brief respite from the white society and its constant oppression." - would this be an acceptable demand? Would this not be considered blatantly racist? Is it OK for black people to persecute against white people in a black-majority neighbourhood, just because white people persecute black people in other neighbourhoods?

I think it's perfectly acceptable for black people to have a safe space, and it is, once again, your privilege that stops you from seeing this. And know one is saying you can't "live" here, we're saying we'd like it if you recognised that this isn't a place for you to demand we conform to your needs

Originally Posted by Aielyn

"Fiction is the only place where gay people can craft their own homosexually dominated world and to want a world where you aren't vilified and attacked for who you are isn't a mental problem, its a valid expression of oppression" - he, and anyone else, has every right to write a fictional piece about a homosexually dominated world. And I would have no qualms about that. However, this is not fiction, this is real life. And in real life, we should not be permitting ANY sexual orientation, race, gender, etc to dominate and persecute.

No, it's not real life, it's a website where you're feeling personally offended because for once you're not being catered to, and you are unable to cope with that. This is the very definition of societal privilege. What you should be doing is taking the time to understand the legitimate frustration of gay people at your attempt to force your sexual orientation on us, just as it is forced on use every where else in this world

Originally Posted by Aielyn

Here's something for YOU to think about. I'm a straight guy who never uses slurs against anybody. And while The Magus hasn't actually used a slur word, he has slurred not just me, but every straight person in the world, by implying that we are all the same, wanting to dominate, persecute, and beat down gay people. I find that offensive - and for The Magus to claim offense for being called out for making that broad implication is the height of hypocrisy. I'd raise the "how would you feel if the situation were reversed right now, and it was a regular site with people saying that gay people should sit down and shut up", but apparently doing so is enforcing "straight privilege".

You may well find it offensive, but you would be wrong. And you would also be blind not to see that "sit down and shut up" is what gay people are taught to do, when you're told not to "flaunt [our] sexuality" by doing outragous things like holding hands, kissing our partner, being in close proximity, saying that we're gay or in any way suggesting that we're not heterosexual.

But then, after typing all this out, I read your other replies and I was again astounded at how much privilege you are displaying and how utterly clueless you are about actual oppression. You think being an atheist is the same as being gay? Are you actually kidding me? I must have missed the news reports of the atheists having "god-hater" daubed on their homes, of them being attacked in the street, set upon by thugs, fired from their jobs and kicked out of their homes.

"When someone says 'I'm gay' I say 'Oh, really I'm straight'" Oh so you don't see sexuality, how enlightened of you. And consequently, you are ignorant of all the experiences of gay people and blind to your own privilege. Oh but you've heard us call straight people breeders, it's completely the same as being called a fag as someone spits at you.

You are an arsehole. Not all straight people, just you