Straight Stories and content on this site

[anpuZA]

I realize that homosexuality is a serious problem for anyone who is - but then, of course, heterosexuality is a serious problem for anyone who is, too. And being a man is a serious problem and being a woman is, too. Lots of things are problems.

Edward Gorey

[anpuZA]

If there is no definitive "law" on the sexual orientation of the stories that are written here, then I don't see why the site can't feature straight content, they just need to put in a disclaimer... hah, how funny would that be? "Warning. Str8 sex might offend you."

Well no, only half of it offends me, besides when my virus is complete, filet of beef mignon will no longer present a problem. *shudder*

Otherwise, we'll just need to vote on this.

Until then:


http://i.imgur.com/14UE3Si.gif



With all due reverence and love to the parties involved.


Ps. However I would like to point out my agreement with the fact that our fellow straight human beings can very rarely stand in our shoes and truly understand what it
is like to be distrusted and hated for being born the way you are, even in a world that is a wee bit more intolerant today, you still really haven't a clue.

PPs. With that being said, it doesn't mean your help isn't wanted and or appreciated with regards to making it even more tolerant. There are some wonderful
breeders out there, we know that and we love you in a platonic non-sexual way. No homo, in other words.

[Corwin]

Originally Posted by schwermarko

I did remember that this came up at some point in the past as well, I had a different handle then but I remember this discussion from 10 YEARS AGO!

http://www.musclegrowth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=2208

So, the concern that the hetero materials would just inundate the site didn't seem to materialize the first time. ...

Hi. If you read that thread, you'd see I was involved. In fact, I've been involve with this argument many times in the decade or more I've been on this site. I also tend to share Magnus's views, or, at least most of them.

But let's be clear: ten years ago it was *not* an overriding concern that hetero materials would dominate the site. The concern is, was and probably will continue to be that this is a site about male muscle growth. Not female muscle growth, not sex where muscle growth is an after thought, but predominantly about male muscle growth. If there is a sexual element to a story, we don't care if it is gay, straight, furry, bisexual, etc as long as the story is about male muscle growth. I'm not sure why this is confusing to anyone.

As for the current debates, the 'no homo' comic is just poorly written by someone with a lot of repressed sexuality issues. Anyone who claims that white heterosexual men are repressed in western cultures is just stupid, and if they feel repressed here, there is nothing stopping them from forming a site of their own. There is a large gay male population on this site, it is a safe space for us, and getting all squicky about the gay thing is just childish on a site whose raison d'etre is fantasies that embellish masculinity, strength, power and muscle.

[Tibo]

Ugh, being a newcomer on this site probably doesn't give me much credibility to add to the discussion just now, but ? please don't let this whole thing turn into a tumblr-esque social justice warrior issue.
I can see already the sighs at the horizon: Throwing around words like "privilege" while striping completely from it's original (very useful) meaning; calling people names simply because they supposedly "had it better than me" and "don't agree with what I say."; etc. etc. ?

Really, there's no need to resort to this kind of angry language and personal attacks, the only thing that'll achieve is to poison what could (have) be(en) a constructive discussion. The only thing this signals is that you loose control over yourself which directly results in a loss of authority and integrity.
So, please, treat each other humanly as we all are human with feelings, too. He who screams louder than all the others doesn't have better arguments and slurs don't equal good arguments, either.

So, now to the topic: I don't see why this site couldn't have more straight muscle growth stories and still be a gay "save space", as long as any kind of insults are discouraged, which they currently are anyway.

As some of the straight users here have pointed out: There are not many other site that feature male muscle growth and even fewer that feature straight stories. Personally, I don't know any besides these forums here.
I'd like so see some proof for the thousands of other sites that feature this kind of straight muscle growth. Let's not forget that this site may be a "safe space" for gays, but it is foremost a "safe space" for people who share this kind of fetish. So these sites, that feature straight muscle growth must allow the same kind of freedom to discuss this topic, to be comparable. I can't think of any alternative, but I like to be proven wrong.
So I see this as a legitimate concern.

I also have to agree with other here that, because one has had it bad and has made bad experience with a certain demographic doesn't enable them to treat members of said democraphic, which haven't had anything do to with these bad experiences, in a bad way, too. After all, this is no game for scoring "oppression points".

And yes, the irrational believe that a greater amount of straight people here would directly result in an homophobic atmosphere does indeed qualify for heterophobia in Memmi's and Heitmeyer's sense. (I don't know why this word hasn't found its way into the English language, as it is quite useful.)
The same goes for the derailed believe in "privilege". The fact that a certain demographic in the world has it better than others, or even actively discriminates against others, does not justify the believe that every member of said demographic must have had it just as well as all the others. People can be discriminated, because of all kinds of silly reasons, and being part of a demographic that supposedly has it better is no letter of indulgence, that buys one a happy life. "Privilege" is a statistic concept that doesn't apply to individuals at all. So, please, just stop it this "but I have had worse!" game, because after all we know very little about each other. The only thing we're going to achieve with statements like these is to deprive ourselves from our respect for each other.
It's just as horrible as people who argue about which crime against humanity should be remembered more, because X has killed more people. Human suffering is not comparable, full stop. Trying to argue one's way around it is just sickening. I would really like if these ways would not found their way in here, in a save space for everyone who is interested in male muscle growth, where nobody has to fear repercussion, because of they happen to have a rather rare fetish.

Thank you in advance

[Corwin]

Someone noted a single thread from ten years ago, but it failed to capture the entire history that happened afterward.

What is most funny about that thread was the interaction with ethernet_jock. Sometime after we had that encounter, EJ began asking if it was OK if he had gay sex (sucking, touching, wrestling with...) with some of his guy friends behind his wife's back. In one breath, he wanted more straight stories on this site, and in another, he longed to have relations with a man and live a lie to his wife. He no longer posts here, yet many of us still do.

Tibo, your post has numerous spelling, punctation and logic errors. You wrongly assert that points about someone's argument is 'name calling' and you don't understand the original definition of privilege. But, what you are missing is the point that there is a very homoerotic nature to "male muscle growth", and that when straight people start an argument (and they are the ones who start these arguments) that there needs to be more straight stories on this site, it is both insulting and incredulous. They raise a false argument because they can't deal with their own homosexual feelings, and blame the out gay people here for the space we created.

It is not all of them, but it is many, as over ten years of this fight have shown.

[Tibo]

Originally Posted by Corwin

Tibo, your post has numerous spelling, punctation ?

I'm sorry, I'm dyslexic and English is not my first language. My spell checker doesn't show me any more spelling errors, and I haven't found a good solution to check for grammar mistakes.

Originally Posted by Corwin

? and logic errors.

Then point them out, please. I'm always willed to learn.

Originally Posted by Corwin

You wrongly assert that points about someone's argument is 'name calling' ...

I don't believe that "? fuck you", can or should be considered a point of someone's argument.

Originally Posted by Corwin

? and you don't understand the original definition of privilege.

Till today I understood "privilege" as social injustices. Some benefits that assigned/given to someone based on what society considers normal and or should experience throughout life, be it one's skin colour or sexual orientation, etc.
If I'm wrong I'd greatly appreciate material (non tumblr SJW material) on this topic to educate myself. All my past studies let me to this "definition" of privilege.

Originally Posted by Corwin

But, what you are missing is the point that there is a very homoerotic nature to "male muscle growth"

This might be true, but I don't see how that's in the way for more muscle growth topics/stories with straight topics/protagonists. After all, if they want some, they should write some, of course the "no homo" label is pretty unacceptable, but I fail to see how that's an argument for "blocking" every straight story, because some fear that these forums might become "too straight". That sound very irrational to me.

I can't say much to your anecdotal evidence of these forums, I'm sorry. All I can say is, why would you want to strip the ones that don't behave like that of their ""right"" to enjoy these topics only because some misbehave? This doesn't make logical sense to me. Why would you want to punish some that don't do anything wrong for the "misbehaviour" of others?

[The Magus]

Just out of curiosity would someone mind please posting a quote of where I or anyone else has said they would like straight guys as a group or straight stories blocked or banned? This keeps getting brought up but I can't see where it came from.

I'd really appreciate it.

[shinji86]

So I havnt read the second page of this thread so sorry if someone has said something similar

So I don't identify myself as straight, but saying someone has never felt real prejudice on the fact they are straight are insane. Not knowing any of these peoples cultural and ethnic backgrounds makes it impossible to state.

In Australia ( as in many other majority Anglo countries ) being of Asian, middle eastern, African, koori, Jewish, Muslim, Hindu or part of any ethnic or cultural minority means you will most likely face prejudice every day, much like a gay male.

I'm not saying all the people making the statements about "heteophobia" fall under this catorgrie, but is it just a little silly to make blanket statements

This in no way means I think I can feel the way a openly gay male feels about being bullied about his sexual orientation by blockheaded idiots all there life, so don't think that

In saying this I would not want this site to change, I love the majority of stories posted here ( gay and straight ), and have been a very long time lurker, and occasional poster under a few different screen names for what I think would be 10+ years, and I would be very cut if it wasn't the way it is


Sorry for the rant and many possible spelling mistakes

[schwermarko]

Originally Posted by The Magus

Just out of curiosity would someone mind please posting a quote of where I or anyone else has said they would like straight guys as a group or straight stories blocked or banned? This keeps getting brought up but I can't see where it came from.

I'd really appreciate it.

No, this all came from a question, please forgive if I haven't done an accurate job with the synopsis.

You had seen posts with slurs in them, and a whole bunch of threads and posts with straight themes, and you wanted to know why we felt we should be acting as though we owned the place, instead of behaving like appropriate guests in what is obviously a gay erotic site.

It took a fair amount of research for me to find the old posts that covered the original intent of the site including straight material, so it wasn't that strange of an idea. It just took us a minute to get to understand that was what being talked about-- I misread what you had said to imply walking on eggshells or accepting dominance behaviors. Once I got it, I agreed there needed to be affirmative work done to make sure that people who get discriminated in the outside world feel safe expressing themselves here.

I think the rest is a debate about the nature of discrimination.

Let me know if I have missed any moves in here, but no you never wanted people blocked or banned, it's a debate as to what our (hetero's) role is, the suggestion that we go was mine, as there are certain roles I won't take on.

--Corwin-- I would love to start a thread exploring the question as to whether or not homosexuality is an inherent part of male muscle growth fantasy. Would you help me do that by starting another thread either asking the question or stating your hypothesis again. This thread has too much going on as it is. But as an open question, I think it could be useful to explore.

[The Magus]

I just want to point out that what happened here happens all the time.

I've been insulted, called a bigot, called "jekyl and hyde" been accused of wanting to drive people out of the forum, been called the "most bigoted person (they) ever met" (note: you have not met me).

I went back and looked at what I actually wrote, and how I wrote it. Yes, I was aggressive, and YMMV on how rude I actually was. I was definitely pissed off, but in a forum where some portion of the stories are about guys becoming doimineering, aggressive dudes who rape every one they see on sight, I don't think it's surprising that some of us have tempers. Most of us here have dark corners within us.

But I am being attacked and responded to for things I did not say. I even went back to the original thread to see why what I said was so horrible. I made a slightly off-topic observation that should not have deserved the reaction it got.

I appreciate your coming around schwermarko, but there are others who haven't. It demonstrates that this is something that still needs to be aired out every once in a while, because there are people who don't get it, and when they don't, they are harming the community.

[Tibo]

Originally Posted by The Magus

Just out of curiosity would someone mind please posting a quote of where I or anyone else has said they would like straight guys as a group or straight stories blocked or banned? This keeps getting brought up but I can't see where it came from.

I'd really appreciate it.

Well, you didn't say it explicitly, but what other measures are you going to take to ensure that this stays a place with a mostly gay demographic? If there's 10 straight muscle growth stories for every gay one, then one sure has to either heavily discourage people from contributing these stories or outright ban them. At a point where heterosexuals should "feel like maybe there's one place in the universe where [they] have to watch their step and maybe not say the wrong thing because it isn't their place."one could consider these forums a place for gay stories first and foremost. So a "ban" would be implicit. After all who would post straight stories in a gay forum?

It's understandable that you've been offended, and I apologize for misinterpreting your intentions. That's why I argued to refrain from such language in first place, because it only leads to misunderstandings like these. I'm sorry.

[whatizit]

Originally Posted by The Magus

Just out of curiosity would someone mind please posting a quote of where I or anyone else has said they would like straight guys as a group or straight stories blocked or banned? This keeps getting brought up but I can't see where it came from.

I'd really appreciate it.

I have to admit that I completely misconstrued your intentions.

From my point of view, I believed that The Evolution Forum never had a policy of being a gay website and that the reason that it has primarily gay content was due to the nature of the fetish - male muscle growth is more open and popular among the gay community, while it's a barely a blip in the male straight community as there are lots of misconceptions that it's "gay" and in the female straight community there seems to be a lot of peer pressure among young girls to declare that "big muscles on guys are ugly".

So when your initially asked why straight people are here and don't they have alternative websites, I completely mistook that for a demand that straight people should leave this site - not a genuine enquiry from a person who believes this to be a gay site. I especially got annoyed when you later linked to a Google search for "muscle sites" to "prove" that there are "billionz and billionz" of straight muscle erotica discussion sites on the web, which ticked me off enough to start posting.

[Corwin]

Originally Posted by Tibo

I'm sorry, I'm dyslexic and English is not my first language. My spell checker doesn't show me any more spelling errors, and I haven't found a good solution to check for grammar mistakes.


Then point them out, please. I'm always willed to learn.

one obvious one is "safe space". I did kinda assume English was not your first language.

Originally Posted by Tibo

I don't believe that "? fuck you", can or should be considered a point of someone's argument.

It is a way of dismissing an argument as offensive.

Originally Posted by Tibo

Till today I understood "privilege" as social injustices. Some benefits that assigned/given to someone based on what society considers normal and or should experience throughout life, be it one's skin colour or sexual orientation, etc.
If I'm wrong I'd greatly appreciate material (non tumblr SJW material) on this topic to educate myself. All my past studies let me to this "definition" of privilege.

privilege == a special right, advantage, or immunity granted or available only to a particular person or group of people.

Look up Implicit Bias, and for example: "This data strongly suggests that many people hold implicit biases towards members of particular groups. For example, over 80% of people who completed an IAT on age bias demonstrated a negative implicit bias against the elderly. In addition, about 75% of Whites and Asians demonstrated an implicit bias in favor of Whites compared to Blacks."

Originally Posted by Tibo

This might be true, but I don't see how that's in the way for more muscle growth topics/stories with straight topics/protagonists. After all, if they want some, they should write some, of course the "no homo" label is pretty unacceptable, but I fail to see how that's an argument for "blocking" every straight story,

You term "straight story" makes no sense to me -- it is far too vague.

[Corwin]

Originally Posted by The Magus

Just out of curiosity would someone mind please posting a quote of where I or anyone else has said they would like straight guys as a group or straight stories blocked or banned? This keeps getting brought up but I can't see where it came from.

I'd really appreciate it.

Nobody ever says this. It the reducio ad absurdum that is always engaged in during this argument.

[anpuZA]

Magus, you seem very familiar. Did you post under another handle previously?

Errr, a bit off topic I guess, just wondering.

[The Magus]

I've taken the only "measures" I can or would make: writing an angry post.

Has the possibility ever occurred to you that you are not entitled to be treated with respect 100% of the time? That in some situations you will NOT be appreciated or welcomed? That's not bigotry, that's life.

And I admit I wasn't clear:

It's not straight PEOPLE I'm irritated with, it's behaviours that straight (and other) people engage in that, whether intentional or not, contributes to an environment where people are marginalized.

It is possible to build diverse communities without kicking people out of them. Get it?

But for straight (or any) people to be welcomed here, they have to know where they are and try a little bit more than maybe they're used to.

That means thinking a bit before using (or defending) homophobic slurs, even when joking.
It means remembering that you have rights that your forum members do not have.
It means that when you are praising one kind of behaviour, you may be silently and unintentionally disparaging another kind of behaviour.
And it means if someone is pissed off, maybe take a second or two and wonder if they might have a point even if they aren't saying it in quite the way you'd like.

And finally, Everyone here understands how it feels to have a fetish or kink that is not in the mainstream. It seems that there is a real void for straight guys who like muscle and male muscle growth. Maybe this can be a cue for real action and some of you can start your own forum, blogs, sites, etc. I know there are some straight mg stories out there, because I've jerked to a few of them myself. And no, this suggestion doesn't mean "get out" ....the more mg sites out there, the better.

Edit: queue =/= cue

[The Magus]

AnpuZA, I've been The Magus here since the dawn of time (I've written some stories that are on O's site). On some other sites I go by Rugbyjockca. I don't always post this much but I've been in this community (in the larger sense, not just this forum) since before I was legal age and I'm 36 now.

[The Magus]

Originally Posted by whatizit

I have to admit that I completely misconstrued your intentions.

From my point of view, I believed that The Evolution Forum never had a policy of being a gay website and that the reason that it has primarily gay content was due to the nature of the fetish - male muscle growth is more open and popular among the gay community, while it's a barely a blip in the male straight community as there are lots of misconceptions that it's "gay" and in the female straight community there seems to be a lot of peer pressure among young girls to declare that "big muscles on guys are ugly".

So when your initially asked why straight people are here and don't they have alternative websites, I completely mistook that for a demand that straight people should leave this site - not a genuine enquiry from a person who believes this to be a gay site. I especially got annoyed when you later linked to a Google search for "muscle sites" to "prove" that there are "billionz and billionz" of straight muscle erotica discussion sites on the web, which ticked me off enough to start posting.

Whatizit, thank you for acknowledging that.

Two points: when you turn on the TV, do you think the channels have an explicit "straight" policy? At nightclubs, do venues go out of their way to advertise that they are "straight". Gay clubs do this out of necessity, because anyone who is in a position of privilege (Anyone - I'm white, and I get surprised by my privilege in relation to people of colour all the time) gets used to assuming that places are theirs by default.

And, when I posted that I was seeing rage. But I didn't mean to say there are straight muscle EROTICA sites, just straight muscle sites. Different sites have different levels of tolerance for gay people, but when I go to Bodybuilding.com or T-nation or muscleandbrawn.com or any of the steroid sites....I am in a primarily straight environment.

The only other place I can talk about fitness from a gay perspective that I know of is realjock.com a personals website for athletic guys, and frankly their "bodybuilding" forum is lame. Lame lame lame.

So, no, I guess there isn't a perfect fit for you and your preferred erotica (but....why isn't there??? There's a website for cake farts! There are erotica websites for every single kind of fetish known to man!!) but there are places that come closer to being accepting to you than there are to me.

Incidently, do the straight guys here know about fetlife? There are a lot of muscle and bodybuilding groups on there and most of them are majority straight (there are also explicitly gay muscle and bodybuilding groups, too).

[anpuZA]

I was at a braai with friends, one of which is my best friend (he is married and straight) and the one lady who is a qualified nurse mentioned a gay couple who had a child by way of a surrogate mother. From the tone of her voice and how she was telling the story it would seem that this is indeed a somewhat new thing for her (to have them as her "patients"). Seeing as how our municipality covers a whole lot of smallish towns I can't say that I am surprised, what was surprising was the conspiratorial way in which she was telling me the details, knowing that I am gay.

Anyway, so we start discussing the pros and apparent cons of a child growing up with two of the same sex parents, and one thing that came up was the possible flak the child was going to get in school as she or he grows up.

My thoughts on this was that for the child, two dads was completely the norm and that she / he wouldn't know the difference (or as some would have it, the "defect") she has, having two same sex parents. I continued that undoubtedly there would be children who would point this out in the nastiest way possible, but hopefully their parents would correct them and tell them that it is as normal as anything else. And then I mentioned that there are obviously parents who go out of their way to make their children hate / attack kids who either identify as gay or have gay parents. I generalised (I guess) that if you had to take a cross section of intolerance towards different sexual orientations in society you would find that by and large the greatest percentage would lie within the straight community.

Of course, I have no actual numbers to back it up, but having grown up in a straight community (lol as we've all no doubtedly had), I can say without reservation that sensitivity towards differently sexed people isn't the greatest. Especially amongst the males.

Thereafter ensued a rather lengthy and heated debate between me and my friend. He took quite a bit of offense at that, one of the points being that he has never seen or heard of gay people being treated less than straight people at all the companies he has worked for. I found that a bit self explanatory as most companies only care about profit and how many clients you fuck over, not if you follow the prophet and who you fuck at night.

Anyway, I guess I'm still a bit shocked, usually I speak to him at least once a day, but we've only chatted on a chat client once since last week. As for being "quite shocked": I've shared intimate details about myself and things that happened as I grew up, with him. I didn't have a horrible childhood mind you, but there were unpleasant bits, one example being told by my dad that he hopes I'm not a "moffie" like my uncle (the very moment he said it, I knew I was!), stuff like that.

That doesn't happen to straight kids does it?

[Eager Muscle]

Hey, I'm easy. As long as they don't start having bachelorette parties here.

[LucidDreamer]

I fear that we live in a world that is constantly forcing society to create lines between sects of people. However, we here at this website are a special society of straight and gay men and ever once in a while an actual woman (i know this, i was contacted by one) where we all like the same thing... muscles and what they can do.

We all need to practice tolerance with each other, I being a gay man have to accept that not everyone here is like me. I don't feel that any of he straight men here hold anything against me, and we all need to just chill. If there is something that we don't want to read/see jjust shut it off.

[anpuZA]

Are Gays Perverts? Guy Dating 25 Women Says Yes - YouTube

Perverts?

[anpuZA]

Mr Presenter in the Middle is cute... might also make a nice Adam...