Deleting stories:

[Mdlftr]

O.K., I've started a NEW thread on the issue of whether
a. deleting an author's stories is a choice that an author can make entirely by himself OR
b. an author should defer to the wishes of his readers and leave stories in existence "forever" (web/paper/microfiche/whatever)

=================================

My comments on this issue:
Coop ALWAYS titled his stories "Copyright (year) R.Chris Cooper". As such, he retained full control over his works. He could do whatever he wanted with them, legally.

Just as an artist can create and modify a work, they can delete it.
Examples: George Lucas and all the modifications he has done to the "Star Wars" movies as they have been reissued over the years.

The concept of "overpainting" on a canvas [e.g., Michaelangelo, Da Vinci, Rembrandt, countless others]

Rewrites: Peter Benchely and "Jaws" - allegedly the first draft(s) of the novel were so rough that the publishing house substantially "edited" it.

Sculpture: Again, Michaelangelo. His "David" was carved out of an enormous block of Carrerra marble which a previous sculptor had started to carve, then abandoned. Michaelangelo took the block of marble and turned it into the masterpiece, "David".

Films: any number of "Director's cuts" added in as "bonus material" in a DVD.

============

Final note: When a creator deletes their work, people who know of the work may be saddened and frustrated by the loss, but it is the author's choice to do so. For example, when Queen Victoria of Great Britain died in 1901 after reigning for 59 years, her daughter Alex destroyed all of her mother's papers. Queen Victoria left explicit instructions to do this upon her death.

Historians and others have lamented for YEARS the incalculable loss of all that material. Victoria was a woman who presided over the expansion of the world's largest empire at the time, had a large family and a loving relationship with her husband that continued past his death. All and any diaries, correspondence, notes or writings that might have illuminated her thinking or beliefs are totally gone. All we have left are scraps. Who was this woman? What motivated her? Why did she do the things she did? All we can do is surmise from secondary or tertiary sources what she might have thought, why she might have taken a particular course of action. We have no information as to her inner thoughts, only the final actions. That's how she wanted it.

Similarly, Coop wanted all his works to die with him. That was his choice to make. We may not like it, we may cry "foul" or "bull" or "conspiracy" but it doesn't change the outcome.

I will miss his writings. I will always remember the pleasure I derived from them. I look forward to the next writer who captures my imagination here.

Mdlftr

[Xander]

I'm curious: if we suddenly discovered a missing part of the will of William Shakespeare or Van Gogh when they requested that their works be destroyed, do you think we should honour it?

What if the legitimacy of the will were in question?

[TKnTexas55]

I am saddened that Chris Cooper wanted his work to be destroyed. It would a powerful legacy as an author who impacted so many with his shared love for muscle. But as mentioned, he copyrighted his work. To not destroy the works as he requested would be a bigger disrespect to the man all respected. That is just not done. So I will remember his work and the pleasures it gave me.

Thanks again Cooper.

[hexdog3f8h]

Originally Posted by Xander

I'm curious: if we suddenly discovered a missing part of the will of William Shakespeare or Van Gogh when they requested that their works be destroyed, do you think we should honour it?

What if the legitimacy of the will were in question?

It is true. A copyright is a copyright. And if registered properly, anyone who keeps a copy of Cooper's work and is discovered may find themselves in court. Copyrighted work is NOT free media unless explicitly stated as such. If you have it, knowingly have it, and it can be discovered you MUST destroy it or face potentially serious criminal charges and lawsuits (even worse if that work is re-published without permission). This includes any "modifications" you make to the original. It still is not yours if the basic content is the same or similar.

[Xander]

Originally Posted by hexdog3f8h

It is true. A copyright is a copyright. And if registered properly, anyone who keeps a copy of Cooper's work and is discovered may find themselves in court. Copyrighted work is NOT free media unless explicitly stated as such. If you have it, knowingly have it, and it can be discovered you MUST destroy it or face potentially serious criminal charges and lawsuits (even worse if that work is re-published without permission). This includes any "modifications" you make to the original. It still is not yours if the basic content is the same or similar.

So work that may have value or has become integrated into society, or may even have become public domain in the meantime is fair game then?

What do you say to all the people who value the continued use of people's work? You expect all use to just stop?

[Ragetiger]

I find it rather odd that he was destroying his works 3 days prior to his death. I can respect final wishes, but these were done prior without any warning. One would think that when he started he would had left some message stating "in case of my death delete my work"

[Ragetiger]

Originally Posted by hexdog3f8h

It is true. A copyright is a copyright. And if registered properly, anyone who keeps a copy of Cooper's work and is discovered may find themselves in court. Copyrighted work is NOT free media unless explicitly stated as such. If you have it, knowingly have it, and it can be discovered you MUST destroy it or face potentially serious criminal charges and lawsuits (even worse if that work is re-published without permission). This includes any "modifications" you make to the original. It still is not yours if the basic content is the same or similar.

I can see the potential trouble if re-posting work without consent. But to have a copy that wasn't destroyed isn't cause in a court case they would have to provide the written document that says that his work was to be destroyed. on the site that has happened, but there's no real way if someone might have a stray copy around. Hell if would be in the temp folders on any computer.

Similar content is another issue, cause there's ALOT of stories that follow his general outline. You cannot copywrite how a work is writen, in other words his style of writing cannot be copywritten. It would be saying a certain pose is owned by this person and you cannot use that pose without consent even though the pose is very common.

[Shade]

There are a lot of interesting points here and on the other thread, and I'd like to address some:

1. Including "Copyright (year) (name of author)" is not necessary for copyright to vest. It vests upon creation. So he'd have retained control of them legally anyway so far as the statutory rights of copyright allow. The bigger issue to me is that by posting them here, and knowing how they might be used, did he give any implied license to make copies? And could it be deemed free distribution to anyone that wanted to copy them for their own use? And, assuming he is dead, could his heir require people to make the deletion? I have a legal view on these matters, but won't necessarily give it at this time.

2. The point that the author himself deleted a majority of his stories prior to his death seems oddly suspicious, and does give a credence in good faith to the arguments of some that perhaps there was no actual death. Although this raises a profound issue for me in that for those of us who might feel a genuine level of compassion, we would be justifiably upset if we may have been mislead. And in my view it is morally wrong at the very least to play upon someone else's emotions. Possibly downright cruel.

3. Does Peter actually have the legal authority to act to remove the stories? By law the copyright in the stories vests in the owner, and upon his death in his estate and eventual heirs according to his will or the rules of intestacy if he had no will. It could be argued that Peter should be in a position to demonstrate he is the legal heir, and that the court has found him to be through the process of probate. All else is mere speculation which in my view does not have to be acted upon until proven otherwise. If he deleted or destroyed anything without authority, he would possibly be guilty of a crime and at the very least to civil responsibility to the actual heirs of the estate.

4. There is a real question of cultural vandalism. That is to say that what is legally right doesn't mean that something is morally right. I think it's a fair argument to say that once I put a story in circulation, I should not attempt to remove it. But we've seen it done, and legally I think that a copyright owner certainly can control this to a point. His rights to demand a deletion are of course exhausted if he gives away a copy or sells it. But merely putting something on display, say on this site, doesn't amount to a sale or gift.

5. It is certainly in the province of a copyright owner to modify and improve their work. I've done it myself. I've never "overpainted" a work I've put out though. I would say I'm certainly welcome to do that in private in any case, until I make it public. And even then there is room for improvement (e.g. Star Wars).

6. There is a key distinction that I'd draw in the case of the papers of Her late Majesty Queen Victoria. There's been a lot of speculation that she did not want them destroyed, and that the Royal Family took it upon themselves to do what they felt was nececssary to preserve the image of the late Queen they wanted to project. (And mind you I say that as a fervent monarchist.) But I would also draw the distinction that even if she had requested it, those were private letters between the writer and receiver that had not been made public, and in which the public had no viable interest. As opposed to a final work that had been made publically available, the absence of which might be a loss to those who enjoyed it.

7. In the United States you cannot enforce your rights in a copyright until you've first registered that right.

Just some of my immediate thoughts.

[Ender]

The question of whether to comply with this type of "Last Wish" is very problematic... Why would someone that put so much time and energy into something want to erase it after he has passed away? That is a question that only those closest to him have any chance answering. I did not know him other than through the few of his stories that I read. Most of his stories weren't my "cup of tea" but a few did resonate with me... They were all thoughtful and well crafted... Based on the feedback his stories received many people enjoyed them and were touched by Chris Cooper's work.

For someone who generously touched so many people and gave them pleasure from his work to choose to erase that legacy seems in conflict with his body of work. Possibly he thought something in his work could later appear to reflect badly on himself or his friends and relatives. And in a misguided attempt to shield others, from some imagined possible future injury, he wants to be forgotten. If this is the case, to destroy his body of work would be more disrespectful than preserving it, so his legacy can continue to touch people.

Ender

But I should also say that I tend to be an information "pack rat" and hate to destroy the only copy of anything. So, I have boxes of books, papers, films, tapes, cassettes, microfiche, disks, etc... waiting for some future archaeologist to stumble on...

[nnnrg]

According to the eulogy note, he was preparing to open his own website; if he started removing things as part of that preparation (as implied in the eulogy) this would be consistent, so there is no reason to cry conspiracy.

Personally I'd like to see a link to a place were we could leave a memorial.

[Ultra GMan]

With stories posted only a week earlier being removed (and with no note about "I'm opening a new website" or anything of the like), it is rather suspicious.

I don't think most people are arguing that R. Chris Cooper had the right to delete his own stories. But that's a very different issue than if we're being told the truth on why they were removed.

Either way it's a sad set of circumstances.

[AuraTwilight]

According to the eulogy note, he was preparing to open his own website; if he started removing things as part of that preparation (as implied in the eulogy) this would be consistent, so there is no reason to cry conspiracy.

How come Cooper didn't announce he was opening his own website? How come he didn't wait until the site was functional and his stories were moved before deleting the old editions?

It seems like an after-the-fact excuse. I do want to second what Shade said, by the way. For all we know, Peter is just a sock puppet, and if he's not he needs to legally demonstrate his authority before anyone is legally obligated to delete their saved copies of Cooper's stories.

And even if Peter is a real person, who's to say he's really speaking for Cooper? Another dreadful possibility is that Cooper IS dead and Peter never approved of his little side-hobby.

[Lucas88]

Originally Posted by nnnrg

According to the eulogy note, he was preparing to open his own website; if he started removing things as part of that preparation (as implied in the eulogy) this would be consistent, so there is no reason to cry conspiracy.

Personally I'd like to see a link to a place were we could leave a memorial.

Damn! You punched a hole right in that conspiracy bubble...thank you! People are going to believe what they want to believe in the end but, your point, nnnrg, is as valid as any conjecture about a hoax put forward by anyone on this board.

As far as deleting stories, however high-minded we want to take this conversation, the simple fact is every single one of us has access to that edit button and can remove the text of any message we put up on this board...it is a "right" afforded to us by the forum to use at our discretion. Whether we choose to use it or not, it's a function to which we all have access for messages, rants, flames, or stories. As long as we did not in some way buy the rights to Chris's stories, none of us has any more valid claim to them than he did and he was perfectly within his rights to withdraw them whether I or anyone else likes it or not whatever his reasons.

Arguments about "the greater good" can be valid in a lot of instances...they can also be twisted to suit just about anyone's motives to do what they want regardless of the impact to the minority.
In the end, I will definitely miss his stories and it's a sad loss to the community as is his passing. None of us may ever really know whether he passed or not...I could be totally wrong, but, I'm much happier thinking I would show compassion before suspicion, even if it is a hoax, anyday.

As far as deleting copies of Chris's stories...there was no implied threat of legal action:

"If you have copies of his stories please delete or destroy them....It is my hope that you who might have copies of his stories will also comply with his wishes."

[BigMuscle12]

The problem with this being is that none of the stories are really gone, web archival makes this impossible, not to mention saved copies.

Just looking through I have seen all of the stories clearly backed up elsewhere. (I will not link to respect Peter's wishes, I'm only demonstrating that these stories will never be gone despite Coop's wishes.)

It's unfortunate that Chris has passed, but there is always a risk to posting something online, it's not realistic to expect full control.

I see this more as a benefit to Peter rather than the rest of the community, who can no longer appreciate Chris through his stories. Personally I think the decision to delete the stories was a bad one. Peter / Chris may have wished for privacy and safeguards, but the community still wants to appreciate Chris as an artist, now they have no where to do that alongside the stories themselves.

Anything else is speculative, and I have no reason to doubt Peters intentions.

[hexdog3f8h]

I did say that the work had to be properly registered. And it takes common sense to see when a work is copied and when it is original.

[Ragetiger]

Originally Posted by nnnrg

According to the eulogy note, he was preparing to open his own website; if he started removing things as part of that preparation (as implied in the eulogy) this would be consistent, so there is no reason to cry conspiracy.

Personally I'd like to see a link to a place were we could leave a memorial.

What eulogy of which you speak of. All we know is that three days prior to his death, his work was being deleted, no word or reason to this. Only after Peter had listed Cooper's death did we even know that he dreamed of opening his own website.

If he was planning to open his own website wouldn't it been a smart move to announce it or least give an indication on why 200 stories were suddenly deleted.

I'm still trying to find any obituary listing that matches Cooper's, so far nothing has turned up.

[falseyedee]

a couple of thoughts from an author:

1. a copyright has only to do with copying and distribution. it means if i write something, some other person cannot copy or sell the story without my permission. this is true before and after publication. but, after publication/release, it does NOT have anything to do with deleting or destroying every copy of the story/novel/film. once it is published, those copies are out there forever. the only thing copyright protects is my right to claim ownership of the right to copy/sell the story. i can't make people delete or destroy them.

2. if there are original computer files or manuscripts, i can destroy them, or ask that my survivors destroy them. but i can't expect anybody out in the world to delete or destroy anything that's been published. i in fact have instructions that the executor of my will destroy all my digital files upon my death. most in my family don't know about my writing in this genre and i prefer to keep it that way. but the books and stories that are here on the net and out on your book shelves or in your computer files...they'll last as long as they last...under my pen name, not my real name.

[tattcub]

This is a tricky subject...

Coops death is very sad, as are his last wishes. If that is what he wanted then fine. His stories can be removed deleted or destroyed by Peter as requested. As long as it is just off Coops accounts/drives etc...

BUT,

As a reader of stories I have collected several myself that are favourites (Erotic and non erotic)

I don't post them anywhere and they are there, as they were intended by their authors for my reading pleasure.

As a writer (minuscule as my contributions are) When I post on a public forum they are there for anyone to use as they wish as long as they're not plagiarised or out-right copied or used to upset someone.


Over the years I have bought many many books. I recently had an event that ended with nearly 300 of them getting wet and had to be thrown. I hated to do it. I believe that destroying the works of talented people is wrong and that when we die our contributions are part of our legacy.

So what I am saying is that I will be keeping the stories I have collected over the years. They're mine. They're precious and you gave them to me.

Hope this made some sense

TC

[evanw]

You can't be harmed after your death since, of course, you no longer exist; so, not carrying out one's wishes post mortem doesn't harm the dead individual.

[ydt81]

Originally Posted by Lucas88

? None of us may ever really know whether he passed or not...I could be totally wrong, but, I'm much happier thinking I would show compassion before suspicion, even if it is a hoax, anyday.

As far as deleting copies of Chris's stories...there was no implied threat of legal action:

I?ll come clean and be the first to admit it?when I signed onto the forum yesterday and saw the news, I straight-up cried. I stopped getting ready for my morning and wept as I read about not one, but two great losses to the community; I thought about it all morning and afternoon.

But thoughts don?t happen in a vacuum; while still thinking about the unfortunate news, I thought back to the first story, I?d read by him, the first and last time I?d had the chance to talk to him. When I went back to see his words, I saw (as expected) the deleted story. Unfortunately, I also discovered the suspicious details that have been mentioned above.
If this is a matter of mourning before skepticism, I promise you I?ve done the former and now, with the details unearthed, I?m forced to the latter.
I won?t go on about the specific shady details; by now anyone reading is probably well informed. And as you said Lucas88, we may never know the truth. I just want to express why the question does (for me at least) make a difference:
I loved R Chris Cooper?s work for its relatively ?holistic? approach. I didn?t read every one of his stories, but whenever I did, I honestly came away more proud of who I was as a gay man.
(Cheesy? Hell, yeah. But I really mean every word of it. His stories were enriching in a way that made me glad I to like the things I do.)
What pains me about the likelihood of him being alive and just wanting to ?put these stories behind him? is that inevitably, it imparts the exact opposite of the spirit his stories inspired for me. No matter how you look at it, dead or alive, as AuraTwilight suggested in the other thread, this gesture implies a certain degree of shame. In the case of a sudden death, however, the gesture seems less likely. In the case of ?going off grid?, it?s certainly plausible, but sad.
I totally approve of an author stepping away from his pen; there are some specific circumstances in which I definitely understand the pressures that would make one want to pull all of his work offline. But in almost all these cases, I have to wonder why anyone writing erotica, making porn, or creating erotic art-- with any reason besides it being a primary source of income-- would do so without a pen name. To that end, falseyedee?s plan seems perfectly reasonable

Originally Posted by falseyedee

?..

2. if there are original computer files or manuscripts, i can destroy them, or ask that my survivors destroy them. but i can't expect anybody out in the world to delete or destroy anything that's been published. i in fact have instructions that the executor of my will destroy all my digital files upon my death. most in my family don't know about my writing in this genre and i prefer to keep it that way. but the books and stories that are here on the net and out on your book shelves or in your computer files...they'll last as long as they last...under my pen name, not my real name.

Anyway, for what it?s worth Peter/Chris, I want you to know that wherever you are, my best wishes remain the same. I?ll never be able to thank you for what you gave. I will miss you and your stories, as warmly haunting now as they were then.

And In solidarity with our brothers across the pond, I appreciate you all for not treading quite as lightly when it comes to obits and issues of death. In this instance, it has served well to not be silenced by taboo, alone. Emotions don?t have to come at the expense of reason (and vice versa).

[umlerian49]

Originally Posted by hexdog3f8h

It is true. A copyright is a copyright. And if registered properly, anyone who keeps a copy of Cooper's work and is discovered may find themselves in court. Copyrighted work is NOT free media unless explicitly stated as such. If you have it, knowingly have it, and it can be discovered you MUST destroy it or face potentially serious criminal charges and lawsuits (even worse if that work is re-published without permission). This includes any "modifications" you make to the original. It still is not yours if the basic content is the same or similar.

Originally Posted by Shade

There are a lot of interesting points here and on the other thread, and I'd like to address some:

1. Including "Copyright (year) (name of author)" is not necessary for copyright to vest. It vests upon creation. So he'd have retained control of them legally anyway so far as the statutory rights of copyright allow. The bigger issue to me is that by posting them here, and knowing how they might be used, did he give any implied license to make copies? And could it be deemed free distribution to anyone that wanted to copy them for their own use? And, assuming he is dead, could his heir require people to make the deletion? I have a legal view on these matters, but won't necessarily give it at this time.

7. In the United States you cannot enforce your rights in a copyright until you've first registered that right.

Just some of my immediate thoughts.

Originally Posted by falseyedee

a couple of thoughts from an author:

1. a copyright has only to do with copying and distribution. it means if i write something, some other person cannot copy or sell the story without my permission. this is true before and after publication. but, after publication/release, it does NOT have anything to do with deleting or destroying every copy of the story/novel/film. once it is published, those copies are out there forever. the only thing copyright protects is my right to claim ownership of the right to copy/sell the story. i can't make people delete or destroy them.

2. if there are original computer files or manuscripts, i can destroy them, or ask that my survivors destroy them. but i can't expect anybody out in the world to delete or destroy anything that's been published. i in fact have instructions that the executor of my will destroy all my digital files upon my death. most in my family don't know about my writing in this genre and i prefer to keep it that way. but the books and stories that are here on the net and out on your book shelves or in your computer files...they'll last as long as they last...under my pen name, not my real name.

In the United States, the original author of a work holds the rights to that work, period. "Registration" is not required. Registering with the Library of Congress is merely a method of establishing primacy, in the event that someone else claims authorship. It is equally effective to mail a certified copy of the work to yourself and simply put it away, unopened, until the need arises. You can also have a copy notarized.

What has not been discussed is the concept of "fair use," as established in Sony v. Motion Picture Association of America, otherwise known as "The Betamax Case." Prior to that case, there was a serious legal discussion as to whether it was legal to record broadcast television. The Supreme Court established that if a person was simply recording a program in order to view it at a more convenient time, that this constituted "fair use," and no prior permission was required.

This same concept establishes the legality of making copies of a few pages of a library book for your term paper research rather than copying out the notes or quotes by hand. I was in college when all this was going down, and all the libraries were sufficiently spooked to put up scary signs advising users that copying from books may not be legal, and they advised against it. Fortunately, common sense prevailed and we can now make copies from textbooks and (much to the chagrin of the movie and TV executives) we can now record anything we want off the air. I imagine we'll eventually see additional refinement in this doctrine as technology continues it's relentless advance. The key concern is whether you are denying the author a reasonable expectation of benefit from his work. Copying a page or two for your homework would not. Copying an entire book so that you don't have to purchase it most certainly would.

Which brings us to the matter at hand. I think you could make the point that by posting his stories on a forum such as this without any reasonable expectation of remuneration, that any individual that copied those stories for his own use would not be breaking any laws, nor could he be compelled to destroy his copy by the author. It would be an entirely different matter, however, if that person started selling copies of the works. In those instances, the author could sue to recover those monies, but I think that would be the extent of any possible legal action.

By the way, I'm not a lawyer, and I don't play one on TV.

[Jaypat]

I tried deleting one of my stories once. The outcry truly surprised me. I didn?t think anyone would really care that much. But enough people made a big enough deal over it that I restored the chapters to the forum. It was then that I realized that once I posted a story it no longer completely belonged to me.

Do I think I have the right to remove my stories if I want to? I no longer think I have the ability to remove them. As another poster stated, they are out there now. They are archived here and on O?s site. But I don?t know of anywhere else on line that they?re archived. If anyone ever runs across one of my stories on another site, please let me know. Not because I want to remove them, but just because I?m curious as to where they wind up.

Some readers have told me they?ve saved copies, and I?m sure there are many other copies out there I don?t know about on many other hard drives. I know I?ve saved copies of some of my favorite stories. None of them are R. Chris Cooper stories. Although he was an undeniably talented writer, his stories were not my cup of tea.

[thedman]

I will say this...if a death has occured, my condolences. However, I must also say that I was in the middle of one of Mr. Cooper's series and now I will not know the end. That bothers me.

I would never infringe on the authors rights. However, I think that the reader has rights as well. (Fair use and all) Just my two cents worth.

[tekuno]

Not only do we have no proof that these are really Cooper's wishes, we have no proof that Cooper is dead. This forum has seen at least one faked death notice before. (See the thread titled "In Memory of Darkluster4".) We can't be sure that we won't see a post in a week saying "oh, dammit, I went off on a business trip to Timbuktu and my roommate posted that to prank you all, and now all that stuff is gone and I don't even have copies of some of it." It's even possible that Cooper posted this himself as the easiest way to eliminate copies of his stories before opening a pay website and charging for them, although I admit that's a pretty nasty thing to accuse anyone of doing and the suggestion is in very bad taste if he is indeed dead. (Still, remember he's a popular author precisely because of his ability to describe fictional scenarios.)

I'd say: at the very least hold off on deleting things for a few weeks, and see if we get any sort of confirmation or contradiction.

[raven79]

If Ragetiger is correct and he started removing these stories three days before his death, then that seems very suspicious. I have heard of guys picking up stakes and just vanishing without a trace before. I don't quite understand how you can just leave the internet and never return though. I would have great difficulty staying away, but it happens.

The fact that someone else got on here and said he died makes it seem pretty legit, but again you never know. I make no assumptions.

[Rarity]

You guys are going all up in da business when you don't really need to. If you enjoyed the story, then you should have saved it. Nothing on the Internet lasts forever, contrary to belief. Yes it's sad, but if that WAS his wish, then starting all of this would be pretty crappy.

[Ragetiger]

Originally Posted by raven79

If Ragetiger is correct and he started removing these stories three days before his death, then that seems very suspicious. I have heard of guys picking up stakes and just vanishing without a trace before. I don't quite understand how you can just leave the internet and never return though. I would have great difficulty staying away, but it happens.

The fact that someone else got on here and said he died makes it seem pretty legit, but again you never know. I make no assumptions.

Originally Posted by fleXodus

R Chris Cooper's prolific work and presence here will surely be missed.

In light of his final wishes, I was going to go through and remove his story posts, but it looks like this had already been done and possibly by R Chris Cooper himself.

Looking over his 200 past story posts I noticed that the modification timestamps show that R Chris Cooper himself began deleting all his stories (leaving blank threads) on September 18th, just a few days prior to his heart attack on September 21st. I hope that this is just a tragic coincidence. A lot of people here are great fans of R Chris Cooper's work and have been affected greatly by this tragic news.

As much as I would like to take the credit for finding this connection, but it was from FleXodus that first noticed it when he was going to clear up the posts. That's about the time the suspicions began to build quickly. I would still love to find an obituary that will match with what we were told.

[amauiguy]

I will share two private messages. The first I sent to Coop, and the second was his reply. Perhaps this will clear some things up.

My message to Coop on 12-Sep.

Your new website
As a long-time big fan of yours, I was reading some older stories and noticed that you've removed some with a note that you're making your own web site. How is that coming along? Will it be opening soon? Inquiring fans want to know!

Thanks again for sharing such well-crafted stories with us. I eagerly look for your byline when I check the forums.

--Marcus

My reply from Coop on 17-Sep.

Marcus

Thanks for reading the stories. The new story site should happen very soon. I've had some side issues that have eaten away at my time. Hopefully by the end of this month I will be able to focus full time on it. I thought I might be able to launch this week but that isn't going to happen. In hindsight I should have left all the stories alone until after the launch. Life goes on. Live and learn.

Coop

His response to me, in light of what has happened, is particularly sad.

[Ragetiger]

Originally Posted by amauiguy

I will share two private messages. The first I sent to Coop, and the second was his reply. Perhaps this will clear some things up.

My message to Coop on 12-Sep.



My reply from Coop on 17-Sep.


His response to me, in light of what has happened, is particularly sad.

Problem is that all the stories were last edited on the 18th, even the fitness plus spa and resort ones were edited on that date, with the reason was adding links to the other parts.

http://www.musclegrowth.org/forum/sh...ad.php?t=31756

This one strikes me very odd. . . the 23rd, two days after he died.

I'm not saying you didn't get these messages, but why only you and not having him mentioning the website as a whole when he was taking them all down. It doesn't add up.

[michaelv2]

This whole business is strange. I occasionally read Coop's stories even though not exactly my 'cup of tea', though I admired his ferocious output - he obviously loved what he did and a lot of other people did too. However, I DID read one of his stories recently - The Recruiters - something about a recruit for a top secret military outfit, who was required to go along with faking his own death.

[ryamkajr]

I do not understand the problem. Regardless of teh reason, someone who has access to teh account, whether they are the author or not, and who has posted from said account (and/or related accounts) has the right to do whatever they want with what they have posted. Additionally, if the stories were copyrighted appropriately for the US, teh request to remove said files is perfectly within the same rights.

Many of you need to get over yourselves. Whether the udnerlying event actually occurred or not, the request has been made, teh action taken. Move on.

[Peter 2636]

Quote:
Originally Posted by raven79 http://www.musclegrowth.org/forum/im...s/viewpost.gif
If Ragetiger is correct and he started removing these stories three days before his death, then that seems very suspicious. I have heard of guys picking up stakes and just vanishing without a trace before. I don't quite understand how you can just leave the internet and never return though. I would have great difficulty staying away, but it happens.

The fact that someone else got on here and said he died makes it seem pretty legit, but again you never know. I make no assumptions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fleXodus http://www.musclegrowth.org/forum/im...s/viewpost.gif
R Chris Cooper's prolific work and presence here will surely be missed.

In light of his final wishes, I was going to go through and remove his story posts, but it looks like this had already been done and possibly by R Chris Cooper himself.

Looking over his 200 past story posts I noticed that the modification timestamps show that R Chris Cooper himself began deleting all his stories (leaving blank threads) on September 18th, just a few days prior to his heart attack on September 21st. I hope that this is just a tragic coincidence. A lot of people here are great fans of R Chris Cooper's work and have been affected greatly by this tragic news.






I know Chris was disgruntled about something that he saw or read on the forum but to my knowledge that wasn?t why he blanked out all the stories. He actually deleted a bunch of them months ago (July 25th) and told people to look for them on the future website. He started to put them back but found the task monumental. A few days earlier, (around July 20th?) Chris asked O?Melissokomos to take Coop?s stories off his page. CHRIS WAS GEARING UP FOR HIS NEW WEBPAGE!


I have his passwords! It was I who went in and deleted that last story after he died! If he went in on the 17th and changed the message he left, then he did it, so what! So he didn?t delete the reason for the edit, so what! Do you want me to do that now? Boy that would really stir the crap! Don?t look for conspiracy where there is none. Stop playing NCIS crime scene investigators. None of the stories have anything to do with our personal life other than them being set in a city we lived in or a place we visited as we traveled. Like the Alamo Hotel story; the similarities? We were driving through Texas at night looking for a motel and visiting The Alamo the next day.


I am so sorry I posted the death notice! At first it was gratifying to see the condolences but then the controversy started. What do you people want? A picture of his cold dead body? Well that ain?t gonna happen! Do you want proof of his death? I will not provide it! I thought my post would explain some things but it just seems to have caused me more grief. I have already revealed much more about our private life than I ever wanted to. Now I wish I could take it all back. It would have been much better if I had just followed his wishes and said nothing. I just want out of this craziness!

[Aielyn]

Originally Posted by hexdog3f8h

It is true. A copyright is a copyright. And if registered properly, anyone who keeps a copy of Cooper's work and is discovered may find themselves in court. Copyrighted work is NOT free media unless explicitly stated as such. If you have it, knowingly have it, and it can be discovered you MUST destroy it or face potentially serious criminal charges and lawsuits (even worse if that work is re-published without permission). This includes any "modifications" you make to the original. It still is not yours if the basic content is the same or similar.

As I understand it, you're wrong. If you legally obtained a copy of the work to begin with, then you are entirely within your right to retain that copy, even if the work is copyrighted.

What copyright refers to is your right to create and distribute copies, and it is reserved to the author (or whoever holds the copyright) to decide who may make or distribute such copies.

He posted his stories on a public website. Anybody who accessed the story obtained a copy legally on accessing the site, and storing it on your computer is, to my knowledge, entirely legal. Moving the copy around is also entirely legal. The only way for a "delete when told to delete by the author or his will" requirement to be applied is if you had to accept terms and conditions in order to obtain the stories (which we didn't have to do) that state this as a condition if you want to read the stories.

And so, while his will could request that you delete your copy, it cannot require it of you. And if I'm not mistaken, assuming that there's no hoax (I have no opinion on that point), in 70 years, they will enter the public domain, and anybody who has a copy of one of his stories can legitimately make it freely available to anybody else.

[nnnrg]

Peter, it would be a courtesy to a community that found Chris to be a friend to many of us, were you to post a link to a place where we could donate towards a memorial. An obituary site would be welcome but may be too much, and I understand that.
If you do not want to do this for privacy reasons, or because Chris said not to do so before passing, then there's certainly nothing wrong with that, but please don't be too angry with people for doubting something they can't confirm directly. Remember that denial is one of the first parts of grieving.

The sad fact is that people have faked their deaths before. I was a member of a community of collectors of the Mel Odom "Gene" dolls. Just before a major convention, one of the members became incensed and insulted that a different member (not him!) won a costume-design contest, and had his partner declare that he was dead and that he wouldn't be at the convention... very stupid, very childish, and a lot of people became quite angry when they found out that he had been reading and laughing at our heartfelt expressions of sorrow at his "passing". Sadly, none of us had any trouble believing that this is what he'd done, either.

That community didn't die, but he pretty much did, as far as we were concerned. And that's just one instance, a pretty bad one but still not unique.

I don't think of Chris as the kind of person who would do this. He never struck me as childish or self-absorbed in that way. I would expect that if he were to withdraw he'd do it much the same way as a few of our other authors have: either stating, "I no longer wish this to be associated with my name and work" or "I am starting to do this professionally, so I am removing the stuff that my contract with my publisher requires," or "I am creating my own website, and reducing/removing the stuff from other sites first," and while people would complain they wouldn't deny the validity.

To me this is more than sufficient proof of his passing - he wouldn't leave things in a mess for someone else to have to clean up if he had expected it.

Again, my condolences for your loss, and my apologies for the sometimes rude way people act when confronted with death.

[Gene]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

How come Cooper didn't announce he was opening his own website? How come he didn't wait until the site was functional and his stories were moved before deleting the old editions?

It seems like an after-the-fact excuse. I do want to second what Shade said, by the way. For all we know, Peter is just a sock puppet, and if he's not he needs to legally demonstrate his authority before anyone is legally obligated to delete their saved copies of Cooper's stories.

And even if Peter is a real person, who's to say he's really speaking for Cooper? Another dreadful possibility is that Cooper IS dead and Peter never approved of his little side-hobby.

The last two paragraphs were the first two things that popped into my mind when this topic came up.

Personally, I have several large trunks & suitcases full of magazines, images, toys & equipment that I would rather not be found while I am alive. I also have published (under other names) many erotic images and stories (some of them here) that I don't wish to have associated with my professional self. However, I've never taken the steps to assure that all of that is gone after my passing.

I find it just a little odd that someone who knows how the web proliferates would attempt to expunge his own works. It's futile. It's tifting at windmills. Even if claimed to be copyrighted. Are they actually "Registered"?. If not registered then the only proof of "ownership" is the first proveably dated occurence of the material in publication or on the Internet. This seems to be a catch 22. If not registered and no proveable dated hard copy exists, then ownership cannot be proved. And as someone implied above, only the executor of the estate has the right to dispose of legal property. So deleting the material from the original site would seem to erase the proof of the right to even try to control all the purloined copies out there if legally entitled to.

And if I remember correctly, if you publish on the Internet (or elsewhere) without first registering the work then you have a limited length of time (months, not years) to get it registered by using the date of first proveable publication. After that it's just more stuff floating in the sea. Legal ownership of unregistered "stuff" sort of goes out the window. Of course my research is a decade old and the lawyers and politicians have been busy making laws so who knows what the state of affairs actually is now. :-( I'm sure YouTube and Google have a lot to say about this. Oy!

[tekuno]

Originally Posted by Peter 2636

I am so sorry I posted the death notice! At first it was gratifying to see the condolences but then the controversy started. What do you people want? A picture of his cold dead body? Well that ain?t gonna happen! Do you want proof of his death? I will not provide it! I thought my post would explain some things but it just seems to have caused me more grief. I have already revealed much more about our private life than I ever wanted to. Now I wish I could take it all back. It would have been much better if I had just followed his wishes and said nothing. I just want out of this craziness!

Okay, then, you can do it really easily. Stop reading this forum now, go live your life without ever coming back, and if anyone tries to contact you on this subject, just tell them "I no longer choose to discuss this" and refuse to continue the conversation. I really doubt that anyone on this forum is going to try to hunt you down and demand that you explain yourself (and you would probably have legal recourse if they did so using any means which wasn't super-easy to ignore, like e-mail). If your whole objection to the continuing existence of the stories online is that you didn't want to have things to remind you of Cooper -- which is pretty much what you said originally -- you can just stop paying attention to their existence. (You're going to have to, anyway, because there's no way to remove stuff permanently from the Internet's many caching systems.) Frankly, you are utterly unimportant to us -- your account had no posts until the death notice -- and you probably won't hear a peep out of us if you stay quiet yourself.

Unless this account is just a sockpuppet, of course, and you're actually here on a regular basis under another name. In which case your whole "I'm just an innocent victim" cry is a lie. In fact, the mere fact that you're still even here talking about this strongly suggests that the whole "this was just something he requested, and I don't intend to enforce it" claim was untrue. You may be telling the truth, but continuing to post here when you claim you're just looking to forget everything is doing yourself a disservice. Go away, ignore anyone who contacts you on this subject, and just live your life. The more you post here, the more is seems like you're a shady liar.

[Lucas88]

Originally Posted by tekuno

Okay, then, you can do it really easily. Stop reading this forum now, go live your life without ever coming back, and if anyone tries to contact you on this subject, just tell them "I no longer choose to discuss this" and refuse to continue the conversation. I really doubt that anyone on this forum is going to try to hunt you down and demand that you explain yourself (and you would probably have legal recourse if they did so using any means which wasn't super-easy to ignore, like e-mail). If your whole objection to the continuing existence of the stories online is that you didn't want to have things to remind you of Cooper -- which is pretty much what you said originally -- you can just stop paying attention to their existence. (You're going to have to, anyway, because there's no way to remove stuff permanently from the Internet's many caching systems.) Frankly, you are utterly unimportant to us -- your account had no posts until the death notice -- and you probably won't hear a peep out of us if you stay quiet yourself.

Unless this account is just a sockpuppet, of course, and you're actually here on a regular basis under another name. In which case your whole "I'm just an innocent victim" cry is a lie. In fact, the mere fact that you're still even here talking about this strongly suggests that the whole "this was just something he requested, and I don't intend to enforce it" claim was untrue. You may be telling the truth, but continuing to post here when you claim you're just looking to forget everything is doing yourself a disservice. Go away, ignore anyone who contacts you on this subject, and just live your life. The more you post here, the more is seems like you're a shady liar.

Wow...and what if you're wrong? What if Peter has been posting for years?

http://www.musclegrowth.org/forum/member.php?u=32960 (corrected...check statistics; click on Find All Posts link)

OOPS! He has.

What if that first post said COOP wanted Peter to move on and it was COOP's wish?

OOPS! THAT is what the first posting said.

The arrogance and absolute DICKISHNESS of so many people on this forum has really surprised me...not sure why because I've seen it before but never quite to this level.

If you're right? SO F'ING WHAT! It's the people that believed that should be upset.

If you're wrong? You've treated someone that might have thought this forum was something of a refuge with a level of callous insensitivity I hope you NEVER have to experience even though I think you and all the others deserve a strong dose.

My ignore list is growing FAST! Life is too short to deal with arrogant, cynical people that only look for the worst and think they're so much smarter than the rest of the world.

[Xyggurat]

Originally Posted by tekuno

Frankly, you are utterly unimportant to us -- your account had no posts until the death notice -- and you probably won't hear a peep out of us if you stay quiet yourself.

Just to point out, he was also the person who maintained R. Chris Cooper's fan thread, which was taken down on the 16th:

http://www.musclegrowth.org/forum/sh...ad.php?t=18473

He also tended to bump, compliment, or ask questions about the next chapters of most of RCC's stories. With 147 posts, almost all of which are on RCC's threads, he's certainly not an inactive forum poster. As much as I hated to dig in to this situation, the potential for popcorn was too great.

-X-

[The Magus]

It actually says, in the right hand corner of his posts, that he has made 147 posts. You've made 71. You want this to be the way we decide who's in the community?

[AuraTwilight]

I'm just gonna say here that Tekuno doesn't represent those of us who spoke up about the possibility of faking because we legitimately don't want Cooper's alleged death to be taken advantage by anyone. Holy hell.